The Spa......hush-hush!

[KingChas]

Nothings broke and nothing needs to be fixed.
That is with the good old Saratoga dirt.
Amazing how quiet polytrack advocates are when nothing happens.
One breakdown at the Spa 08 meeting would have resulted in an uproar.
But a safe meet earns no merits.........Amazing. :D


PS; How's that poly at Del Mar doing?
Awful quiet west coast crowd. ;)

[classhandicapper]

Perhaps this is an indication that a well maintained dirt track can be just as safe as any of sythentic tracks.

Aside from waiting for all the data to come in, that's one of the things I've been curious about. If they spent just as much money installing new dirt tracks as they did on the new synthetics, perhap the results would have improved as much. I take it that many of the tracks that have switched did so because their dirt tracks were in such poor shape to begin with.

That's one of the problems with statistics. It's often very difficult to isolate whatever factor you are trying to learn something about even if you are unbiased. When bias becomes a factor, it often possible to convince people of all sorts of nonsense.

[Bruddah]

Aside from waiting for all the data to come in, that's one of the things I've been curious about. If they spent just as much money installing new dirt tracks as they did on the new synthetics, perhap the results would have improved as much. I take it that many of the tracks that have switched did so because their dirt tracks were in such poor shape to begin with.


Handicapper you are 100% on target with your above statement. If the time, money and resources were spent equally on dirt tracks there would be no controversy. Because, there would be no synthetic tracks.

A prime example are the $$millions spent on drainage and sub base systems for synthetics.

[Tampa Russ]

Aside from waiting for all the data to come in, that's one of the things I've been curious about. If they spent just as much money installing new dirt tracks as they did on the new synthetics, perhap the results would have improved as much. I take it that many of the tracks that have switched did so because their dirt tracks were in such poor shape to begin with.


Handicapper you are 100% on target with your above statement. If the time, money and resources were spent equally on dirt tracks there would be no controversy. Because, there would be no synthetic tracks.

A prime example are the $$millions spent on drainage and sub base systems for synthetics.


As one who was sort of in favor of synthetics at first, I now must agree strongly with the above statements in favor of dirt. The only observation I will add is that in the dead of winter, I haven't found a dirt or synthetic surface that I'm comfortable with. I'd rather have them cancel when conditions are poor.

[David-LV]

Nothings broke and nothing needs to be fixed.
That is with the good old Saratoga dirt.
Amazing how quiet polytrack advocates are when nothing happens.
One breakdown at the Spa 08 meeting would have resulted in an uproar.
But a safe meet earns no merits.........Amazing. :D


PS; How's that poly at Del Mar doing?
Awful quiet west coast crowd. ;)

It really is very simple as I have said many times before.

Synthetic Surfaces, a product of good salesmenship without testing (ex: SA,WO,TP) by the snake oil salesmen.

______
David

[Bobzilla]

It's absolutely correct that there was not one breakdown during afternoon racing on Saratoga's MAIN TRACK over the entire six week meet. Obviously, as we're usually not there in the mornings to observe training there is no way for us to know what the casualty rate was during the early hours. As OTM AL mentioned in another thread, NY-Bred Filly Nordberg suffered a heart attack on August 2nd during a turf event. Apparently there was a paddock accident as well. But the fact there were no breakdowns on the main track during actual racing is simply as remarkable as it is encouraging, especially when one considers all the off-tracks during the first three weeks of the meet.

I'm plain and simply not going to get into the comparisons between Del Mar and Saratoga on this issue as I believe it to be in poor taste and I think we can all agree that when one of these beautiful atletes suffers a catastophic injury it's an absolutely horrendous event which, besides the obvious of killing the horse and endangering the rider(s), hurts the industry as a whole. That being said, I think Saratoga's safe meet bears more mention and acknowledgement from the turf media as well as industry officials. Other than Steven Crist who may very well bring it up sometime soon, as he is usually very responsible, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for any official acknowlegement or any mention from the activist turf media. As many have suspected for some time there are probably lesser known reasons behind the industry's rush for conversion besides the more widely known reason of safety. In a recent interview with the Blood-horse, former BC CEO and current trustee of the Breeders' Cup D.G. Van Clief mentioned the importance of track uniformity as racing moves ahead. Many industry execs feel that uniformity can be easier attained through the use of synthetic racing surfaces.

Uniformity..... not unlike Riverfront Stadium, Three Rivers Stadium and Veterans Stadium, those National League ball parks that came into vogue in the seventies. Where are they now? Maybe some of you might like the idea of track uniformity but I feel that this would be as boring as standardizing the dimensions of all major league outfield walls. It is much more difficult to get an edge in this game as it is, for some their edge comes through a better understanding of how different racing surfaces play between each other and from day to day. Consistency in the interest of safety, yes. But uniformity?

I guess the larger question would be: If it can be proven that a conventional dirt surface can be made to be as safe, if not safer, to any of the synthetic brands of surfaces, then what is the real reason behind the push?

[Mag]

Since July 18, there have been no breakdowns---NONE---not even in the moring, no bad injuries AT ALL, at Pinnacle, which is dirt. A little slow, but SAFE.;)

[Bobzilla]

Since July 18, there have been no breakdowns---NONE---not even in the moring, no bad injuries AT ALL, at Pinnacle, which is dirt. A little slow, but SAFE.;)

That's great news about the new Pinnacle race course in Detroit.

I'd be interested to know if there have been heavy rains in the area since July 18th and if so how well did the track drain and was it consistent over the circumference of the oval.

[joanied]

Excellent posts.
I do hope the 'talking heads' within the industry read forums like this one...best way for them :) to be informed, IMO!!!!
Ar first blush, I suppose synthetic looked to be THE answer to equine safety...thank goodness not every track across the country jumped on that bandwagon.
I hope the NY tracks do not go the way of rubber/plastic...and that they take a long, hard look at the Saratoga surface. The only synthetic that I might support for NY is an inner track at the Big A for those miserable winter days at Aqueduct....(although my real opinion on winter racing at the Big A is not to have it:eek: )
and I'm thinking that with so many trainers not sending horses to the BC because of the surface, that maybe the tracks will take a step back and do some research into the simple answer everyone here agrees on...safe DIRT surfaces.

[ryesteve]

The only synthetic that I might support for NY is an inner track at the Big A for those miserable winter days at Aqueduct....(although my real opinion on winter racing at the Big A is not to have it:eek: )I'd hate either option, since the Aqu inner surface is generally one of the most reliable ones (handicapping-wise) I know of. And despite how harsh the weather can get, they seldom have to cancel because of the condition of the track.

[joanied]

I'd hate either option, since the Aqu inner surface is generally one of the most reliable ones (handicapping-wise) I know of. And despite how harsh the weather can get, they seldom have to cancel because of the condition of the track.

Ya know, now that you mention it, you are right...now, I haven't been back to NY in too many moons...I guess I was just thinking back to the way it was....ohman, I remember vanning over there from Belmont with a horse to run and hated every minute...damned cold, wind blowing in like a gale, and the barns (at least back then) were all cinder block...freezing and damp....aaarrrggghhh!! It was such a relief to pack up and head to Florida.

But, as you mentioned, that inner track does stay open in some pretty bad weather....so, I take back my suggestion for synthetic at the Big A.
But, I still go with no live racing in NY for a couple of months (Dec-Jan, or Jan-Feb)....going back to the days when racing shut down in NY for the entire Winter, I still hold to the fact that racing in the colder places needs a rest for a couple of months...it'd do racing in general some good....not to change the subject, but we have too much live racing going on all year long....it was better back 'in the day'...IMO.
:)

[sonnyp]

this issue is a perfect example of what has evolved in this country. the people making the decisions ( rules, laws etc.) are those ( beaurocrats, politicians etc.) that have no practical exposure or experience with the issues for which they are lying down the mandates. its happening every day in washington and all over this country from an administrative standpoint and the folks working in the "real" world suffer the consequences of these pinheads making these outlandish decisions in an attempt to justify their existance.

[Bobzilla]

this issue is a perfect example of what has evolved in this country. the people making the decisions ( rules, laws etc.) are those ( beaurocrats, politicians etc.) that have no practical exposure or experience with the issues for which they are lying down the mandates. its happening every day in washington and all over this country from an administrative standpoint and the folks working in the "real" world suffer the consequences of these pinheads making these outlandish decisions in an attempt to justify their existance.


Exactly!

I've been wondering about this New York state politician who was recently tasked with overseeing the racing industry in the Empire State. I think his last name is Sabini. He's been critical of racing at large and he made a statement recently in regard to some of racing's recent tragedies such as Barbaro and Eight Belles. There has simply not been the carnage at New York tracks like there was at Del Mar or Arlington just prior to their conversions, two instances where something needed to be done fast. But to justify one's newly annointed position and to make it look like he's acually doing something constructive, who knows what might happen. Synthetics in Nw York by way of governmental decree is not out of the realm of possibility. The Big Sandy becomes the Big Waxed Kitty Litter.

[the little guy]

It's absolutely correct that there was not one breakdown during afternoon racing on Saratoga's MAIN TRACK over the entire six week meet. Obviously, as we're usually not there in the mornings to observe training there is no way for us to know what the casualty rate was during the early hours. As OTM AL mentioned in another thread, NY-Bred Filly Nordberg suffered a heart attack on August 2nd during a turf event. Apparently there was a paddock accident as well. But the fact there were no breakdowns on the main track during actual racing is simply as remarkable as it is encouraging, especially when one considers all the off-tracks during the first three weeks of the meet.




The " paddock incident " I assume you are referring to was, I believe, a week ago Sunday and it involved a Phipps/McGaughey 2YO filly that freaked out. There was no fatality there and that filly has, in fact, been sent back to the farm and will NOT be racing.

[OTM Al]

It wasn't that one Andy, it was something I think that happened a week or two into the meet. It may have actually happened in the morning when they were schooling in the paddock. I think it was a 2yo that just went nuts and flipped and caused injuries too severe to be saved. The wife was up there the whole meet (watching your picks everyday btw.....) and those were the only 2 deaths she was aware of (including Nordberg) but I can't remember the specifics of what she told me

[the little guy]

Thanks. I'll see what I can find out.

[OTM Al]

She just told me that's exactly what happened. It also involved an incident between the staffs of two of the top trainers in which one assistant went over to help the others out with what had happened and ended up shall we say angering his boss so much he didn't have the same job anymore.

[wr98]

I am a fan of dirt but,I was there the 1st week and there was a horse that was injured during a race and had to be put down.

[eastie]

the best feature about the dirt tracks is when there is a nice bias. betting horses who ran against the bias is a great source of value, if you have reliable trip notes. maybe it's just me, but i miss boxing 1 2 3 at keenland on opening day and cashing plenty of nice price tickets even though everyone knows inside speed is zooming.:ThmbUp:

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Nothings broke and nothing needs to be fixed.
That is with the good old Saratoga dirt.
Amazing how quiet polytrack advocates are when nothing happens.
One breakdown at the Spa 08 meeting would have resulted in an uproar.
But a safe meet earns no merits.........Amazing. :D


PS; How's that poly at Del Mar doing?
Awful quiet west coast crowd. ;)

Poly's doing just fine at Dmr. So Sar had few breakdowns and that's great but what about the long-term numbers? They say that synth is better; how many horses were put down at Dmr in 2006?

[David-LV]

Poly's doing just fine at Dmr. So Sar had few breakdowns and that's great but what about the long-term numbers? They say that synth is better; how many horses were put down at Dmr in 2006?

I think that the following article disputes your above statement.

BTW: Saratoga had ZERO breakdowns this year on their well maintained dirt surface.

______
David

Still real concerns about synthetic tracks
http://www.latimes.com/sports/horse...0,6118026.story (http://www.latimes.com/sports/horseracing/la-sp-horse4-2008sep04,0,6118026.story)

[KingChas]

"John Sadler, who led Del Mar trainers in starts and money won ($2 million-plus) this summer, said the track's push for more speed resulted in "not more, but different" injuries."

Excellent article Dave.
In my opinion the above statement is what caused dirt tracks to become unsafe,appearantly higher ups are repeating this error with synthetics also.

I myself do not care if a horse sets a track record on a big day.(Derby day,BC etc,).

Unless a horse sets a track record like Big Red's Belmont run, which was out of this world.Some of the newer track records are meaningless.

It's funny now horse's set track records in a blanket finish.
And all the horse's in the race ran the highest BSF's in their career by far.

Quite easy to tell management juiced the track that day.
Why ? So a new racing fan will go home and say "I can't wait to go back to the track to see another track record set". Wrong Mindset ;)

[Bobzilla]

Poly's doing just fine at Dmr. So Sar had few breakdowns and that's great but what about the long-term numbers? They say that synth is better; how many horses were put down at Dmr in 2006?

Your point is well taken in regard to the horror show of Del Mar 2006. Even the most ardent anti-synthetic individual would have to concede that something had to be done in response to Del Mar 2006 and Arlington 2006. Six in 07 and eight in 08 are better than whatever the number was in 06.

Rather than getting into some scoreboard comparison between the two summer boutique meets on this issue, I would prefer to just acknowledge the safe and fair racing conducted on Saratoga's main track in 2008. The super and his crew deserve recognition. More than anything, I believe, is that the zero breakdown number demonstrates how safe a conventional dirt track can actually be if properly maintained, and this needs to be addressed by writers and television people who cover horse racing. I believe it should be the main topic of discussion on TVG's Blinkers Off show today, starring Matt Carothers and Mike Watchmaker.

Who knows, perhaps someday it will be learned that breakdown rates are more a reflection of a circuit's interplay of trainer/veterinary/claiming and track maintenance practices rather than a reflection of the inherent safety characteristics of any given surface type.

[rastajenk]

"I can't wait to go back to the track to see another track record set".

I've never heard anyone say that, or heard of anyone saying, or heard of a track executive thinking someone might say that. Track records are tiny type at the top of the program page, and 99.99% of players skip right on by it.

[Bobzilla]

I don't think it's so much people hoping to bear witness to a track record being broken, I mean let's face it, the majority of people at a track are more concerned with cashing winning tickets. Casual fans and non-gambling race fans, I suppose, might enjoy the excitement of track records being broke on one of racing's biggest days.

I do think that there have been some instances in the past where tracks manipulated a surface with the intent to produce fast final times thus giving breeders something to help market a future stallion's mating credentials. Let's face it, and it's unfortunate, but all decisions in racing at this time have everything to do with priming up the breeding part of the industry and maximizing syndication value as much as possible. The preservation of the game's integrity and the improvement of the breed are secondary concerns, if even that.

[foregoforever]

Rather than getting into some scoreboard comparison between the two summer boutique meets on this issue, I would prefer to just acknowledge the safe and fair racing conducted on Saratoga's main track in 2008. The super and his crew deserve recognition.

Passero, the NYRA track super, was under fire during the Belmont meet for the condition of the surface, and announced that he was leaving as of the start of the Belmont meet. It would be interesting to know if he was calling the shots during Saratoga or whether his replacement was getting an early start.

If they did do something different and learned some positive things as a result, one would hope that they'd communicate those findings publicly, not only for the safety of all but to demonstrate progress from a PR perspective.

[Bobzilla]

I had heard Passero was leaving. And you're right, if there were any valuable lessons learned from the past six weeks, which encompassed both inclement as well as pleasant weather, then this information needs to be shared.

[trigger]

Commentary: The Future of Racehorse Injury Prevention :

"In our most recent study funded by the Grayson-Jockey Club Research Foundation and done in racing Thoroughbreds in Southern California, we found that with sequential blood samples we could pick up changes in biomarkers six weeks before an injury occurred. Our accuracy rate in the study was approximately 70%, and we are striving to reach 100% accuracy
The future vision is that we could identify a horse at risk through monthly samples of blood biomarkers. The idea is that the horse would be taken out of training, the microdamage could heal, and a catastrophic fracture would be prevented.

Reducing catastrophic injuries is the most important issue facing the racing industry, and we are hopeful that the biomarker test will soon be commercially available for use by the equine industry. We must protect the health of our equine athletes, and advances in veterinary research and technology are hopefully going to allow us to see a day when most horses receive care and treatment before a severe injury occurs. Other factors, such as racing surfaces and training regimens, must be evaluated for their roles in catastrophic injury, and a screening test is no substitute for proper horse management. We also must examine other purported injury factors, such as durability, 2-year-old racing, and medication. But an easy-to-use test is a significant step toward an injury-free horse. "
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12627

[classhandicapper]

Commentary: The Future of Racehorse Injury Prevention :

"In our most recent study funded by the Grayson-Jockey Club Research Foundation and done in racing Thoroughbreds in Southern California, we found that with sequential blood samples we could pick up changes in biomarkers six weeks before an injury occurred. Our accuracy rate in the study was approximately 70%, and we are striving to reach 100% accuracy
The future vision is that we could identify a horse at risk through monthly samples of blood biomarkers. The idea is that the horse would be taken out of training, the microdamage could heal, and a catastrophic fracture would be prevented.

Reducing catastrophic injuries is the most important issue facing the racing industry, and we are hopeful that the biomarker test will soon be commercially available for use by the equine industry. We must protect the health of our equine athletes, and advances in veterinary research and technology are hopefully going to allow us to see a day when most horses receive care and treatment before a severe injury occurs. Other factors, such as racing surfaces and training regimens, must be evaluated for their roles in catastrophic injury, and a screening test is no substitute for proper horse management. We also must examine other purported injury factors, such as durability, 2-year-old racing, and medication. But an easy-to-use test is a significant step toward an injury-free horse. "
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12627

Wow, that's pretty amazing.

[NY BRED]

[QUOTE=KingChas]Nothings broke and nothing needs to be fixed.
That is with the good old Saratoga dirt.
Amazing how quiet polytrack advocates are when nothing happens.
One breakdown at the Spa 08 meeting would have resulted in an uproar.
But a safe meet earns no merits.........Amazing. :D


Maybe it's the water? :confused: :jump:

[Tom]

Yeah, the SPA water. I had some this year, Mmmmmmmmm!!!!

That biometer sounds promising, but the cost? Would it be used at the tracks it really needs to be used at? Who would pay for it? Should the OWNER be required to prove proof of soundness for all entries?

[Gallop58]

Re: David's
'Synthetic Surfaces, a product of good salesmenship without testing (ex: SA,WO,TP) by the snake oil salesmen."

Although its probably not pertinent to the discussion, I feel it necessary to point out that for WO and TP, the initial rationale for synth was to not lose race days in winter and heavy rain and the promised reduced cost of maintenance. If you read Wilmot's harsh comments about his Poly experience, he doesn't talk about safety. He talks about what they thought they were buying vs what they got. As I remember it, safety was not mentioned very much due to the lack of stats to support those claims. Even Dickinsons early websites were about not losing any training days when a remnant hurricane swept through. Though he did mention his training experience over his track that seemed to be safer.
What I believe happened was the run of breakdowns at Delmar and Arlington, had people up in arms and then the snake oil salesmans stepped in smelling an opportunity. WO in particular also started to slant their rationale towards installing synth to make it look like they had the horses safety in mind all along.
At the time, no one was strongly lobbying for "just tear up the tracks, do better drainage, maintain better and things will be fine" This would have taken the tracks to admit that there was a problem in the first place, which they all vehemently deny until forced into by statistical certainty... (See Penn recently)

The snake oil guys stepped in and rattled off some good sales. But like building a car, if it doesn't do what you claim, it will get found out in the long run. I personally, was appauled by the lack of engineering rigor applied to these surfaces before they were installed. Building a 1 mile section of road leading to the track will have had more analysis and engineering fundamentals applied than the early days of synth installs.

[the little guy]

Building a 1 mile section of road leading to the track will have had more analysis and engineering fundamentals applied than the early days of synth installs.

That's an excellent line and representative of a lot of what's wrong with this industry.

Good post.