Revisiting tote security, what's your take.

[Imriledup]

Ok, so we had the pick 6 scandal a bunch of years ago and now recently, we had this Quick Pick snafu in California and i was wondering if any of you are still highly concerned that people are betting after the start, especially into the large pick 4 and pick 6 pools at major racetracks?

What have we, as an industry, done to make sure that everyone is on a level playing field?

[Bruddah]

The Industry has done nothing and won't. At least until forced to do so by another blatant scam and scandal. The Industry reaps the take from all of this last minute betting and they don't want to upset the Apple Cart.

It's all about money. It always has been and always will be. (JMHO) :ThmbDown:

[DJofSD]

In a word, no.

They have a long ways to go before they approach the Caesar's wife posture.

[lamboguy]

i see stuff every single day. it is truly bazaar. last night i was watching the 12th at hazel park. the favorite was 3-5. before the race the horse had $590 on it in the show pool, and $700 in the place pool. the horse ran second and paid 6.00 to win and 5.00 to show. the palce pool wound up with $165 and the show pool had about 100 if i remember right.

also in the 8th at mountain, the 6 horse had $12,000 on it in the win pool and was showing 3-5 for odds, after the race the horse had after a last flash of an added $20k in the win pool, $11,000 on it, the horse ran third and went to 8-5 for win odds. nice game we are playing!!!


i can't wait for one of the genius's on this board to tell me that i am is a conspiracy guy. jsut like the mutual department tells me thats the 'simulcast money"!

[DJofSD]

I won't tell you that!

Now, don't shoot the messenger, but I will repeat that what you are likely seeing is the significant delay between when (1) the money wagered, (2) when it hit's the pool, and (3) when the tote board you are watching is updated to show you the results of the dollars hitting the pool since the last tote update and update to the display.

Some what subtle differences but differences nonetheless. Ideally, the delays are kept to an absolute minimum. And it can be done -- if you have enough money to spend to upgrade the entire system.

As to betting past the point when the pools are supposed to be closed, they need to find a way to lock those pools when the gates are opened and not when some clerk decides to push a button. My understanding is there is a person still in the loop that makes it happen. That needs to be eliminated.

[Imriledup]

personally, i'd love to think all this stuff is on the up and up, but let me ask the panel this question. Can you tell me a race at any track where the winning horse goes UP a few ticks after the race? Have you ever bet on a horse that was 5-1 loading in the gate and got 7-1 at the wire?

There was a race yesterday at Del Mar won by a horse called Headache. 13-1 going in the gate, 8-1 at the wire.(and he won).

I understand that really sharp bettors make large late bets on horses they deem as value, but you would figure that on more than one occasion, the winning horse goes UP and i can't really remember seeing too many go up. Quite a few stay the same, but you dont see winners go up in price very often. For every horse that goes from 5-1 to 6-1 at the end and wins, there are 10 that come down in price at the end (some drastically).

Whenever i make a bet and i win, i hold my breath as i walk over to my computer to look at the final price and let out a big sigh of relief if my 5-1 shot is actually 5-1 at the end. I never expect more than 5-1 and i'm happy if i get the price i saw when the race started.

Is it really rocket science to see where these large, late win bets are originating from? Or, like Bruddah has said, does anyone care to stop it? After all, the racetracks don't care how the money gets divvied up as long as they get it.

[lamboguy]

when a horse misses the break at the start, the odds generally go up.

[rrbauer]

The ability to pull off a Fix-6 caper has simply moved from the tote company hub site to the host track computer room. Before the Fix-6 the live bet files for various "Pick" wagers from simulcast and ADW sites were being held at the hub and then just the live bets thru the fourth (in the case of P6) leg were transmitted to the host site. This cut down on the network traffic and the time it took to get the wagers updated into the host track data base. And it made that data available to IT people with the appropriate "privileges" who worked at the hub site

Today, those bets are no longer held at the hub but are transmitted right away to the host track. At the host track there are IT people with admin privileges that enable them to access the live bet files. Those privileges allow them to update files; and, turn off security features and suspend log files. That and a penchant for larceny is all it takes.

I'm sure that tote-company executives will swear up and down that their systems are secure and no breaches are possible. That's what they say every time. Then when they find out that they've been had, excuses and blame fly left and right and it becomes a one-time anomoly that will never happen again!

Indeed, if the Fix-6 guys hadn't gotten greedy they might still be at it today. Their approach was to make a losing ticket into a winning ticket without changing the time stamp or the bet amount on the data record. The perfect past-post operation.

I don't think that people are able to routinely place bets after the "stop bet" signal has been sent to the network. However, there have been instances where that signal malfunctioned and allowed bets to be placed after the race had started (and even after it finished). And, once again, it was the greed of the people who took advantage of it and just kept punching tickets that allowed it to be discovered. I'm guessing that we haven't heard of all of those "malfunctions".

But the biggie is in the computer room. And what happens in the computer room stays in the computer room! :)

[BlueShoe]

This late drop stuff is so common that it is almost ho hum,but just one more recent example.AP,Sundays first race.At my otb site,had passed the race and was just casually watching the betting.As the runners loaded,the last flash of the tote showed the #1 horse at 4-1.He broke alertly from the rail and cleared off and got the early lead and went wire to wire for the win.Oh yes,during the running the odds suddenly became 5-2.It is almost always the horse that gets a early clear lead or at least is on the pace with non contenders that takes the late plunge,very rarely the animal that breaks badly or gets shuffled back.

[Imriledup]

when a horse misses the break at the start, the odds generally go up.

This has been going on for years. Tellers are given the ability to cancel bets in case of error, but they've been doing it and cancelling huge bets for people when horses break slow. I remember being at Gulfstream many years ago (at least 10, maybe 20) and there was a phenominal 4-5 shot running, he was by far the best horse on paper, had a fancy jock and trainer to boot. He broke slow and guess what, 4-5 to 6-5 into those pools. You never see that, especially when the 4-5 is legit and figures to be 4-5.

All you need to know is where that large bet was cancelled from and you'll have the culprit, and should be able to figure out the teller who did the cancel.

[lamboguy]

i used to bet the break and cancel myself back in 1990. they even wrote about it in the new york post. it took nyra over a year to find the glitch in the system. i remember we bet a horse that left the gate at 80-1 and paid $12.80. that is when they had enough of us at sulfolk downs. every tinytim in the place had guys like me on it. we probably bet more on the race after it started than there was on the race from everyone else. we did other tracks as well, just didn't get the same amount of time to call the break. nyra wound up shutting sulfolk out when the first horse went in the gate. then they saw the lack of business and gave us a few seconds for about another 6 months.
the folks at nyra looked like hero's with the increase in handle. but the customers that couldn't call the break were never to happy!
the truth of the matter is, if they policed their own security system's they would probably increase the handle. it might take them a little time to gain the confidence of the player, but i beleive it could be done. now i am in a different position in this sport, and i am rooting for the house to succeed. whenever i have called they never paid attention. the one guy that does care is berube in tampa, that guy is pretty sharp, and works for a very smart family. nyra had to figure out a way to boost the handle, so they pulled a calder and added more races to their cards this year in saratoga.

[Niko]

It's all your imagination. They just keep putting on the shades and flashing the laser light at us like the Will Smith Movie, Men In Black......

I would love to see someone who has the time take a camera shot of the odds and tote for every race for a week or so at a small track like Penn or Canterbury which have horrible late odds drops to see what the actual percentage of winning and losing drop downs are. I know there are some people on here that go to the track a lot. Take a picture when the bell goes off and then about 2 more as the race goes on. Some scientific evidence and statistics from an INDEPENDENT source would be a good start. Our memory can play tricks on us after all.

I did this at Canterbury the few times I went out this year and it supported the theory, but it wasn't enough races. If it's legit boy are these guys good. I'm impressed.

I still don't know why they can't stop the betting before the races start. Show the odds remaining to bet on the screen, announce it at the track. No more betting.... I know the last time it failed but how hard is it.... The odds should never change once the race starts-period....

If it is just a few past posts here and there it means that it could happen anywhere, anytime. That someone has control over it. Could you imagine what would happen if this was occurring in a legitimate financial market? I know the market maker gets to see stops etc and can use it to their advantage but to me that's different. Number one, if you buy a stock earlier in the day you don't get it for 1/2 the price after the bell closes...

If something is going on other than the occasional race the people who know about it aren't going to be stupid this time and blow it. But, I don't work at the switch so who knows-time will tell... I'm tired of it anyway so I've given up...just don't bet those tracks...it's the only logical choice I can make.

Why doesn't it affect the tri's or supers as much---too unpredictable for the 3rd-4th spot? key-All-all isn't profitable. I think we would see some consistency over types of bets if it was just sharp handicapping but it could be one or two really good handicappers that only bet win/exactas?