PIPS Quiz for the Forum members

[Sea Biscuit]

I have a quiz for the forum members with regard to the two horses mentioned below.

My answer shortly and the reasons for the pick.

Todays conditions with a fast track

Mohawk NW 2 or $32500 Lt 5 years or younger Purse $20000

Mohawk Horse #3 Last raced in NW 2 or $30000 LT 5 years or younger Purse $20000

Fractions for the race 27:0 55:3 126:2 156:3 His PIPS 7566 Fast Track

Came well off the pace parked out for ½ mile and won by 5 ½ lengths.

Mohawk Horse #6 Last raced in NW 1 or $10000 LT 3 year olds.Purse 16000

Fractions for the race 27:1 58:1 128:3 156:2 HIS PIPS 7886 Fast Track

Came well off the pace parked out for ½ mile and won by 6 ½ lengths

Consider the rest of the field as non contenders.

The # 3 is 5-1 and #6 is 4 -1 at postime. The million dollar question

Who would you bet.?

If there are any questions please feel free to ask.

PS Lottakash correct me on my PIPS if I am wrong.

:confused::confused::confused:

[Ray2000]

The horse that won in last half of 58-1....#6

[Sea Biscuit]

Thanks for the early response Ray.

We will wait for some responses before I give the answer to this quiz

[Charlie]

#6. He came home in an adjusted last half of 56.4 while the other came home in 100.4. So I do believe #6 would win.

[Stick]

Looks the the horses up front just backed up to the #3. I would prefer the #6 in spite of the class difference in the last race.

[LottaKash]

A pip in general, is worthless without an accompanying Running Line.........It is not about the speed per se, but the pace and velocity within the pip....

The first 1/4 sets the tone of the pip, but what follows and a horse's running line together with his i-pips, are what gets the message thru.......

Pips are just patterns of speed, not the whole story, we are looking for the right patterns.......

Pips by themselves do not win races......It is not only useless, to not show a running line, but dangerous to your wallet, as well....

best,

[Sea Biscuit]

Horse #3 6 6/13Q 5/13 4@@/3T 1/3Q 1/5H

Horse #6 10 7@/9 5@/5T 2@@/2T 1/1T 1/6H

Here you go LK

[LottaKash]

Horse #3 6 6/13Q 5/13 4@@/3T 1/3Q 1/5H

Horse #6 10 7@/9 5@/5T 2@@/2T 1/1T 1/6H

Here you go LK



Hey Biscuit, this is a tough one,,without having any further history or facts about each of these horses I would have a tough time coming to a conclusion .....

Firstly the pip for the 3 is out of whack. as you will generally not see pips run like that.....7566 is not a normal progression in pips.......and since this horse made such a wild swing in his place in that race, going from 5th by 13-lengths to 4th three wide by 3 and 3/4;s... that is not a normal thing, as there are not many horses that can gain 10 lengths from one 1/4 to the other, and on a turn no less.......On the surface without looking at the other horses and their pips, and class and form, I would say this race was full of unformful horses and possibly a trotting race with a lot of breakers in there....and the 3 was lucky to be in the right place, as when the early pace, probably over all the heads of these horses, broke down, the 3 was flying around all these just walking rats...notice that, the pace slowed down dramtically from the half to the 3/4, so it could've been an off track or a busted pace.....OR...this is one classy horse, and he just didn't have any problems going around these pigs......
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Now the 6, has a similar thing going on, but his pips are in line and are more normal in their natural progression of pace......I see this as a cheap race, and maybe at a cheap track, or a trotting race. as the pip is very slow early on........so if this is the case....then the 6-having made a bold move as well, but just not this wild swing, as the 3, I would say, on the surface, this is a very classy horse, racing against horses that could never beat, him.....Just the fact that this horse was hung the mile outside and was three wide on the last turn, suggests he is a very nice horse indeed, especially since, he gained the lead at the top of the stretch, and motor even further ahead to the wire......this horse was well meant in this race, and there is no telling how good he may be.....Also, it is very important that the early fractiions were slow enough that it didn't hurt this horse.....7886 is a nice pip for a first or second start horse ( I suspect that)......
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To compare the two without additional info, is frustrating at at best,,,,,but to come up with a winner, I would say that the 6-would be my pick as there is no telling how good this horse may be since he was so dominant in the later stages of the race.......And without knowing the horses or the circumstances in the 3's race, I would venture a guess, that he was a very lucky horse to win it, as maybe all the good horses were left behind in the early pace scenario or breaking scenario.......-
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Was this a real race between these two ?......I am dying of curiosity in the outcome..........

best,

best,

[Sea Biscuit]

Hey Biscuit, this is a tough one,,without having any further history or facts about each of these horses I would have a tough time coming to a conclusion .....

Firstly the pip for the 3 is out of whack. as you will generally not see pips run like that.....7566 is not a normal progression in pips.......and since this horse made such a wild swing in his place in that race, going from 5th by 13-lengths to 4th three wide by 3 and 3/4;s... that is not a normal thing, as there are not many horses that can gain 10 lengths from one 1/4 to the other, and on a turn no less.......On the surface without looking at the other horses and their pips, and class and form, I would say this race was full of unformful horses and possibly a trotting race with a lot of breakers in there....and the 3 was lucky to be in the right place, as when the early pace, probably over all the heads of these horses, broke down, the 3 was flying around all these just walking rats...notice that, the pace slowed down dramtically from the half to the 3/4, so it could've been an off track or a busted pace.....OR...this is one classy horse, and he just didn't have any problems going around these pigs......
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the 6, has a similar thing going on, but his pips are in line and are more normal in their natural progression of pace......I see this as a cheap race, and maybe at a cheap track, or a trotting race. as the pip is very slow early on........so if this is the case....then the 6-having made a bold move as well, but just not this wild swing, as the 3, I would say, on the surface, this is a very classy horse, racing against horses that could never beat, him.....Just the fact that this horse was hung the mile outside and was three wide on the last turn, suggests he is a very nice horse indeed, especially since, he gained the lead at the top of the stretch, and motor even further ahead to the wire......this horse was well meant in this race, and there is no telling how good he may be.....Also, it is very important that the early fractiions were slow enough that it didn't hurt this horse.....7886 is a nice pip for a first or second start horse ( I suspect that)......
------------------------------------------------------------------

To compare the two without additional info, is frustrating at at best,,,,,but to come up with a winner, I would say that the 6-would be my pick as there is no telling how good this horse may be since he was so dominant in the later stages of the race.......And without knowing the horses or the circumstances in the 3's race, I would venture a guess, that he was a very lucky horse to win it, as maybe all the good horses were left behind in the early pace scenario or breaking scenario.......-
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Was this a real race between these two ?......I am dying of curiosity in the outcome..........

best,

best,


[/font]

Actually I was waiting for your reply Lk

Thank you Ray, Charlie, Stick and of course LK for participating in this little PIPS Quiz. All of you were right when you picked the #6 and so was I. Kudos to all of you. Please read my comments for this horse on my thread for Mohawk Aug 21. Yes LK it was an actual race which being 9th race at Mohawk Aug 21. I was not testing your handicapping abilities with this quiz but I wanted to make a point about PIPS.

The difference between the PIPS between the two horses is a massive 320 points with the #6 being on the higher side. Obviously if you are looking at PIPS the #3 should have been your top choice here but I had predicted the #6 would 'destroy these' and it did by winning by a margin of 6 1/2 lengths.

So to me its obvious that PIPS is not that a relaible figure when the up front pace is slow as it would give a unusally high number in such races and as in the race mentioned. As all of you probably know that if the 1/2 mile and 3/4 mile times are slow then the final time is distorted and will show a slow final time. The final time is totally dependant on what happens at the 1/2 mile and 3/4 mile calls. Even if the horse set the pace and the pace is slow the final time will also be slow to an extent. Think about it.

Your call LK.

PS I do hope LK that you realize that I am not trying to knock your system. This is a discussion forum and we are just discussing the various aspects of your system.

[LottaKash]

Actually I was waiting for your reply Lk

Thank you Ray, Charlie, Stick and of course LK for participating in this little PIPS Quiz. All of you were right when you picked the #6 and so was I. Kudos to all of you. Please read my comments for this horse on my thread for Mohawk Aug 21. Yes LK it was an actual race which being 9th race at Mohawk Aug 21. I was not testing your handicapping abilities with this quiz but I wanted to make a point about PIPS.

The difference between the PIPS between the two horses is a massive 320 points with the #6 being on the higher side. Obviously if you are looking at PIPS the #3 should have been your top choice here but I had predicted the #6 would 'destroy these' and it did by winning by a margin of 6 1/2 lengths.

So to me its obvious that PIPS is not that a relaible figure when the up front pace is slow as it would give a unusally high number in such races and as in the race mentioned. As all of you probably know that if the 1/2 mile and 3/4 mile times are slow then the final time is distorted and will show a slow final time. The final time is totally dependant on what happens at the 1/2 mile and 3/4 mile calls. Even if the horse set the pace and the pace is slow the final time will also be slow to an extent. Think about it.

Your call LK.

PS I do hope LK that you realize that I am not trying to knock your system. This is a discussion forum and we are just discussing the various aspects of your system.

Pips are not a system, they are a base-line, a starting point.......Some of you may be looking for pie-in-the sky.....there ain't no sucha thing......
So, even tho the i-pips were different, the final time were the same, and since the both of these horses were not the front runners, they both had a final ipip that was the same.......It's just that the patterns were different, can you see it....it is just a more reliable way of understanding pace and a horses's reaction to it...that's all.....Saying that a horse should win, just because he went to the 1/2 in 54 seconds, is meaningless, or he went to the 3/4 in 1.22, that is also meaningless, the pace preceeding and suceeding those nunbers are what counts most,,,,,,Pace...So, some will pick the winner in a race, where I also had the same winner, and he would say, well, look at his 3/4 of 1.22 , that was the best in the race...that may be true, but it usually is not THE reason he won, his 3/4 time happened to be 1.22, but most likely it was a combinatiion of other ipips ALONG with that 2 that showed his true colors......so having a good handle on pace patterns, is much better than just knowing the 1.22 is fast.....

Now if the 3-was the front runner in that same test race and he won by the same margin, I wouldn't put my money on the 6, at all, not if the 3 was untested or unchallenged, in the upcoming race, the 3 would probably romp....Now, that doesn't mean that the 6 can't or won't beat the 3 at some juncture, but it's just that the 6, even tho he had a nice showing, may not necessarily be able to challenge the hot early pace of the 3,as he hasn't done this yet, and unless the 3-going wire to wire, got leg weary in the stretch the 6 would be hard pressed to keep up let alone close against the 3....this is because, he is not used to going to the 1/2 and 3/4's that fast, so he must go out and do something to get that speed under his belt, before I would label him best....PIPs are just pace PATTERNS......that's all....... Early Speed and Solid Hadicapping is still king.....as low pips have to be qualified, and a horse has to be in shape to run to his pip........If a horse ran as a closer in his last race and now he wants to run to the front, or go 1st over, he is going to have to go a slower pip in his upcoming race, as he was not responsible for his total pip, being the closer........the only horses that can claim an entire pip is a front runner, a 1st over horse or the horse in the 2-hole behind the leader,,,,,all the rest have to cash in some points to do that, especially if they haven't done that lately.....So using the PIPS COLD, without understanding their significance is an almost fruitless endeavor, as you still have to have other things in order to win.......Pips are not a black box approach....every race and combination of pips and Form and Class are different, and to make a decision on how to best use the pips requires patience and pracatice......I understand that others will get the same winner in the same race as I, but, I can duplicate that decison over and over again, as I have a foundatiion, and the others, may not see this race in quite the same way, each and every time.......How do I know this......Been there.....Pips have shown me,and more so everyday, to be so reliable, that I would never go back to my old ways....I would be more lost without them.......

PS...please explain where you are getting those 320 points, in the pips, there is no such thing.......haha

amen,

best,

[LottaKash]

After dwelling on my last post, to respond to Biscuit's challenging race....I wanted to re-hash what pips are......

Pips, are just a way to take what is already on the program, and get it more organized and insighful, than just flitting about looking at all the fractions, and saying to yourself something like, a 56 second half, a 3/4's of 1.22 or a last half in 55, a final time of 1.52 and back and forth and round and round, and never being able to juggle and organize those numbers.....It is a daunting task at best....I have been playing the horses, for oh so many years, and I have used countless, systems and pace numbers and speed ratings, and they all have left me dazed and confused at best.........This is why I have invented pips.......All they do is let you get organized, in a jiffy, and allow you to zero in, rather quickly, on who the fastest horses and their respective paces, are....

Isn't it better and more clear to see all the pertinent numbers so neatly laid out and organized instead of helter skelter all over the place ?....If you are a good handicapper, as many of you are, you are using the very same numbers as I, and not any different than mine, it's just that I am more organized, and I, after doing the pips (5minutes), can handicap a race or 2 or 3 minutes and have the winner.....I do spend more time than this in races that especially have my interest, but, I can quickly rule out unplayble races based on pips, form and class in just minutes, and can better use my time to handicap the best races to use......There are many, many races that I will not play....but, after using the pips, I can quickly get a picture of a good race, and sometimes, I will sit up and get very excited about certain races, as having used the pips for awhile, I know, THE juicy situatiions as they come up, and I just know that I have a good chance to make a lottakash in certain races.....

Having the lowest pip is not enough, you must have other important things going for you than just the lowest pip.....That is why there are so many unplayable races.......Patience is key.....

Pips are not a system.....Pips are not a system.....Pips are not a system......

best,

[Sea Biscuit]

PS...please explain where you are getting those 320 points, in the pips, there is no such thing.......haha

amen,

best,

Maybe I am doing something wrong. Please feel free to point my mistake about the PIPS numbers.

I deducted the PIPS No. of the #3 Horse (7566) from the PIPS No. of the #6 (7886) to get the 320 points and I thought you said the lower number is better.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

The # 3 is 5-1 and #6 is 4 -1 at postime.


The odds actually:

#6 was 0.90-1
#3 was 2.95-1

[Sea Biscuit]

The odds actually:

#6 was 0.90-1
#3 was 2.95-1


You are absolutely right Times. You are an observant person.

That was the only thing I had changed to make the quiz a little more interesting and a little bit more difficult to pick the right horse.

It did'nt matter anyways because all the participants got the right answer.

Best to you.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

You are absolutely right Times. You are an observant person.

That was the only thing I had changed to make the quiz a little more interesting and a little bit more difficult to pick the right horse.

It did'nt matter anyways because all the participants got the right answer.

Best to you.

I only noticed because,in actually considering the race,I would have passed,as there was no value by the criteria I use.Plus I get nervous anytime I even THINK about wagering on a trotting race.

[LottaKash]

Maybe I am doing something wrong. Please feel free to point my mistake about the PIPS numbers.

I deducted the PIPS No. of the #3 Horse (7566) from the PIPS No. of the #6 (7886) to get the 320 points and I thought you said the lower number is better.

Hey Biscuit, too funny, but I can see where you might want to do that......I have been flipping race fractions around for almost 5-years, and have travelled that road as well.....There are no points involved in the pips at all.....I invented pips to quckly get a handle on not only to see how fast a horse ran his last race, but to see the way the race unfolded to arrive at that time, and how well or poorly a horse responded to it......

Let me see if I can simplify this.....PIPs are just another way to express the pace in a particular race, and combine it with an individual horse's final time......
Pips are a kind of shorthand......Instead of saying or using 26.4...55.3...1.24.2 and 1.52.... we use 7542, and that is all it is....Say we have 3-horses that have all run a final time of 1.52, but their pips were differently arranged......such as, 7542....or.....6432....or 7652.....They are all the same final time, but their early fractions were run differently in each of those races......so 6432 is said to have the lowest pip....as his early speed fractions were much quicker the other two pips.....and, if a front runner, he would be way out in front early in the race....and in Harness Racing early speed is KING,as the followers are at a distinct disadvantage early in the race, and will have to find a way to make up that deficit somewhere throughout the race, gradually or all at once.....But the real fun begins when track-bias' exist, and when we start to compare 2-dis-similar pips......I could write chapters about those aspects, get it ? I'll finish up here with one more example........say, one pip is; 7642 and another is 6433 which is the lowest pip ?... ah hah, got you there.....Generally the 7642 because of the final i-pip, but not always,,,, one pip favors a particular style of running, over the other,and vice-versa, and that is why we do the 3-last pips and not just the most recent......Because, there are more to pips than meets the eye, I could write chapters about it......but do the shorthand, and watch the patterns emerge, and if you are a good handicapper, you will begin almost immediately to draw some conclusions, and you are on your way......I hope this helps......

And please, never think that I don't enjoy going round and round in trying to assess or compare notes on a particular race, I love the challenge.....If two good handicappers take different roads, and arrive at the same place, which is the truth, it matters little, what style they use......If we were all coming in to Atlanta, I may have taken I-85 and you I-75,and another I-20, but we are all in Atlanta, and that is what makes this so much fun.......We all must find our own way in order to be successful, what I am submitting is an organized starting point....

G.L.best,

[Sea Biscuit]

I only noticed because,in actually considering the race,I would have passed,as there was no value by the criteria I use.Plus I get nervous anytime I even THINK about wagering on a trotting race.

Actually the quiz was not about wagering or even picking a winner.

It had do about the point I wanted to make about PIPS.

If you follow the thread in its entirety, you'll know what I mean.

I might add here that that I believe in harness racing pace is probably the MOST important factor to consider. I do not believe in any speed ratings that do not consider the pace in tabulating their SRs. Final times can be distorted sometimes to a second or even a second and half by the up front slow pace. We do not have to go far to find a good example. Just analyze the two races and their fractional times and final times of the #6 horse Tacs Delight

Aug 14 10 7@/9 5@/5T 2@@/2T 1/1T 1/6H 27.1, 58.1, 1:28.3, 1:56.2

Aug 21 6 6/7T 5@/5 1@/1 1/4 1/6H 28, 57.4, 1:26.2, 1:55

What happened here. Did the the horse improve or was it the track variant at play or was it something else that he managed to race 1.2 seconds faster than his previous race It was neither. In his race of Aug 21 he got a very good and honest up front pace which was 2 and 3/5ths seconds faster at the half mile call and ¾ qtr call than his previous race. It was faster by 2/5th of a second at the half mile call and and a whopping 2.1 seconds faster at the ¾ mill call thereby enabling the horse to win in 1:55 flat. Why do you think that I commented in my Mohawk 21 thread that this horse would destroy the field and destroy he did by winning by 6 ½ lengths even though his nearest rival the #3 had a final time which was only 1/5th of a second slower than this horse in his previous outing.

I have spent a lifetime trying to understand pace and what effect a fast pace or a slow pace has on horses and in a harness race. Understand pace and you will see harness racing in a completely different light.

In my thread of Aug 22 I commented about Fysia (Race 10) and I quote myself “Fysia ran some kind of brutal fractions which was an unbelieveable 5 secs faster than average.” She came back to win her next race and pay $9.30. You rarely ever see a horse running that fast on the front end. But the thing that surprised me most that none of you asked me how I got to that 5 seconds figure. Maybe another time and another day we will delve into it a little more deeply. I did not think I would be writing such a long post in reply to TimeRChanging but somehow I got carried away.

I do not for once claim that I have all the answers. That would be foolish of me. I consider myself to be still in the learning process.

Enough for now

Later

[LottaKash]

Hey SeaBiscuit, I understand perfectly what you are trying to say...and I respect and admire your way of going.....and a good call on that Fysia horse, and I understand perfectly well about the 5-seconds thing.....It's just that for me, usually a horse will bounce and bounce big-time afte a race like that,especially racing in that class that is, and for that reason I will usually pass...But, Fysia did have a fabulously looking running line and the best (lowest) pip of all the horses, and that was obvious to me, but there was this bounce thing again....good call...

But real brutal fractions, are like the ones that Somebeachsomewhere and Art Official, ran in their last encounter at M1... 26...51.4...1.19.1...1.47... a pip of 6297....now that is some pip, ain't it?.....fastest (lowest pip I have seen to date) I have seen 6308 and 6209's, but 6297 is in a league of it's own.....The way I see it using the pips, if the 6308 horse were to go head to head with the 6297, and they were all out for the win.......the 6308 horse would be down by 5-lengths at the half, and another 5 lengths at the 3/4's and another 5 lengths more at the finish......In reality, it doesn't work that way, as the horse's are herd animals, but on paper that is what the pips suggest...

And honestly, as to why no one asked you about the 5-seconds, they either are not far enough along as you are, and/or they are in their own zone and really do not care to know.....My take is ,that if you used the pips it would simplify and organize what you already know to be true......

Ain't this fun...???

bestest,

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Actually the quiz was not about wagering or even picking a winner.
It had do about the point I wanted to make about PIPS.
If you follow the thread in its entirety, you'll know what I mean.

SB,I did,and I know what you mean.My post was strictly in response to your comment about changing the odds,and why I noticed.Nothing more.
Although,to be honest,I didn't understand your reference to the 320 difference in the PIPs.
I assumed that LK devised them to be read as 4 individual PIPs,as opposed to 1 4-digit PIP.
Anyways,no harm,no foul.

[LottaKash]

SB,I did,and I know what you mean.My post was strictly in response to your comment about changing the odds,and why I noticed.Nothing more.
Although,to be honest,I didn't understand your reference to the 320 difference in the PIPs.
I assumed that LK devised them to be read as 4 individual PIPs,as opposed to 1 4-digit PIP.
Anyways,no harm,no foul.


Hey Times, you are spot on, 4-individual (i-pips) to make 1-PIP, as each race has it's own pip, and you should do each of the last 3-races, for a better and more insighful opinion of a horse's pace and speed capabilities, when analyzing his running lines.........glad you are interested......

best,

[mrroyboy]

See John
The pips are confusing. You can't use the numbers and subtract like he tried to do.They have to be looked at both individually and combined. Thanks for posting the explanations. I hope we can do that war room thing.

[Sea Biscuit]

And honestly, as to why no one asked you about the 5-seconds, they either are not far enough along as you are, and/or they are in their own zone and really do not care to know.....My take is ,that if you used the pips it would simplify and organize what you already know to be true......

Ain't this fun...???

bestest,

You should always have an inquiring mind.

If Newton had not asked himself this question of how and why when the apple fell on his head, he would probably not have discovered the laws of gravity.

Ask any teacher and he will tell you that the brightest students in the class are those that sit in the front row and ask questions.

Just my thoughts,

Later

[Sea Biscuit]

See John
The pips are confusing. You can't use the numbers and subtract like he tried to do.They have to be looked at both individually and combined. Thanks for posting the explanations. I hope we can do that war room thing.

Maybe I made a mistake in substracting those two numbers. But LK did say the lower the PIP the better it is. By substracting those two numbers I was trying to point out how much lower the #3's PIPS were.

In my actual example quiz The #3 horse had the best I-PIPs and also the best PIP

and yet the #6 destroyed the field

#3 7-5-6-6

#6 7-8-8-6

You can't have it both ways unless you are telling me thats PIPS are useless as far as the closers are concerned.

Good luck with your PIPS and if and when LK decides to post his picks and his PIPS before the races are run like myself and Ray, maybe I will place an advance order for the book if he decides to publish it.

Catch you later

[JBmadera]

perhaps this is a stupid question, but, do you primarily use PIPS to determine the most fit horse in the race or do you use it relationally to project the shape of the race?

thx!

jb

[LottaKash]

You should always have an inquiring mind.

If Newton had not asked himself this question of how and why when the apple fell on his head, he would probably not have discovered the laws of gravity.
Just my thoughts,
Later


While strolling in an apple orchard, as it was apple-pickin-'season in upstate NY, an apple fell on my head.....All I discovered was, that the apple tasted very good.....no worms..

Much earlier this year a Sea-gull crapped on my head, and I invented PIPS......What a wonderful thing it was, kinda messy tho..........

Eagerly anticipating the next drop.........

Keepn' it light......hahaha........


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

best,

[Sea Biscuit]

While strolling in an apple orchard, as it was apple-pickin-'season in upstate NY, an apple fell on my head.....All I discovered was, that the apple tasted very good.....no worms..

Much earlier this year a Sea-gull crapped on my head, and I invented PIPS......What a wonderful thing it was, kinda messy tho..........

Eagerly anticipating the next drop.........

Keepn' it light......hahaha........


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

best,

I have a sense of humor without it life would be pretty dull.

I enjoyed that bit and laughed.

Take no offense because I am here to make friends not enemies.

I do hope the sea-gulls stay away from you

Haha

[mrroyboy]

Listen Guys

We all have knowledge and ways of handicapping harness racing. The point is if we all share what we know we will all improve and pick more winners,.
So thank you Lottakash, Seabiscuit,Ray and all the rest of you for sharing your thoughts.
I also think we should do some War room realtime discussions. That would be a great learning experience for all of us.

[LottaKash]

[QUOTE=JBmadera]perhaps this is a stupid question, but, do you primarily use PIPS to determine the most fit horse in the race or do you use it relationally to project the shape of the race?

thx!jb [/QUOTE

Hey JB, I will repeat, all the pips are another way to display the individual 1/4's and the final time of each horse.......They are simply a way to display what is already there and available since they first started horse racing......I didn't really invent anything.......JUst a way to make some sense of how fast or how slow horse was racing in conmparison to his running line for each pip.

It simply adds a dimension that was obscure and blurred before, and now they are right there in front of you keeping you well organized and have the speed and pace numbers right smack dab, in your face handy....That's all...If you want to crunch numbers, you must get some software to do that.......I have found that this enough for me, and I am always aware of the fastest horses and in what kind of pace, based on their running line, they can run in......

Try them, and you will see that your awareness level will be much higher, and then, you will be better able to use all of the things that are important to finding the contenders and hopefully the winner....that's all......

When I use a race to show what might be possible using the pips, it is not for the sake of glory, it is only to demonstrate how you might be able to better implement their use........I would like to put out my picks in advance, but generally, I am not always so sure that far in advance, I like to watch the races live, and if I can't watch, then I don't play.....I need to see the odds....So, How can I give you a selection, when I couldn't or didn't play it as well....If some think that I am redboarding or showboating, then I will not give any examples or tips on how to better use the pips....It doesn't matter to me...

humbly,






]

[Sea Biscuit]

[QUOTE=JBmadera]perhaps this is a stupid question, but, do you primarily use PIPS to determine the most fit horse in the race or do you use it relationally to project the shape of the race?

thx!jb [/QUOTE

How can I give you a selection, when I couldn't or didn't play it as well....If some think that I am redboarding or showboating, then I will not give any examples or tips on how to better use the pips....It doesn't matter to me...

humbly,


]

Its fine and dandy with me if you don't post your picks but at least don't come next day with a results chart in your hand and say you had a $52 horse because that fitted your PIPS perfectly. Nobody does that anymore on a forum anymore.

You show an inherent fear of posting your picks in advance and thats understandable. I too had that fear when first I started posting my picks at another forum and fear was I might look foolish if my picks don't come through. But you know what the other guys who were posting were no better than I and they too had there losses and I quickly lost that fear.

Its not written in stone that you have to actually play your picks. I certainly don't. Sometimes the odds don't warrant it or there is something I see on the toteboard I don't like.

Just wanted to see the magic of PIPS in advance.

This is, by the way, my last post on this subject.

[LottaKash]

Sea Biscuit, I respectfully submit that you may have misinterpreted the jist of my message and messages.....I was simply trying to get some of the weaker and newer players a chance to get themselves organized and on their way to more successfully playing the Trots........

In the past, and, there are some who will attest to this, that,I have never lacked the courage or conviction of reporting my opinions about who I may have liked in a particular race.....And by doing so, and being only mildly, rather than wildly successful, I do have a record of some creditability around these parts......

But here is the rub, since then, I have invented PIPs, and by doing so, I have departed some, in the way I have conducted my handicapping process', consequently there exists a bit of a state of flux, as I am still learning as well, so when I have a revelation on a particular race and I had the nerve to back up my opinion at the betting venue, would you suggest that I not pass on this little tid-bit of delight, to those who are willing to learn, as well as the others who may be curiously interested.....? We all generally learn by example...

Up until Pips, I have been a successful horseplayer, and I continue to be.....But, you see I have this New-Toy, and I am having a lot of fun playing with it, as well as sharing it with others.....I also have a very open mind and that keeps me very excited about all of this.......Every single race has a truth about it, and I am always willing to explore that premise........

I ask you the intent and purpose, of posting your selections for others to see in this forum.....?.....Are you planning to gain some degree of notoriety, and then possibly start your own little tip/tout service....Probably not, and I believe that you do it for the fun and challenge of it. and perhaps that little bit of fame that may accompany those winning selections.....It is fun, isn't it...?.... Or shouold I print and post your winning selections on my refrigerator.......?

I have sincerly tried to impart some of my hard won knowledge and experiences to those who are not as far along as maybe you or I.... And in that spirit, I will continue to share with the lesser informed, some of my insights, facts, and opinions.......Isn't this what this forum is about, or it is a handicapping contest at best ??

No matter what anyone thinks, I DO have that $52 number in my back pocket ,and I 've got it posted on my refrigerator (haha),.......

I hope this reveals my role in this forum.......

best,

[mrroyboy]

First of all, Let me confirm Lotta's honesty and intentions.

It is very tough to post picks in advance because you need to see the odds etc. You might even bet another horse if the odd shift.
People post their picks to help others or to boost their ego. Lotta does what he does to help out the rest of us. I for one don't want to see posted picks. I want to see handicapping and theory so I can learn.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Sea Biscuit,
Last night,the #3 horse did beat the #6,and by 6 lengths!!!!!
Check the results.
The #6 is now #3.
The #3 is now #9.

http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/results/data/rmohsth.html#N6






















































































I didn't say he won,though!

[Sea Biscuit]

Sea Biscuit,
Last night,the #3 horse did beat the #6,and by 6 lengths!!!!!
Check the results.
The #6 is now #3.
The #3 is now #9.

http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/results/data/rmohsth.html#N6



I did'nt say he won,though!

Times. This is absurd. The two trotters broke in the race.:confused:

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Times. This is absurd. The two trotters broke in the race.:confused:

SB,
You seem like a very competent handicapper.Methodical,analytical,well-rounded.
But you just have to use less starch in your shorts!
My post was clearly a bit of light humour!That's all!And if anybody was paying attention,these same two were partly the cause of the $60,000.00 tri at Mohawk Thur. evening!
Cheers!

[Sea Biscuit]

SB,
You seem like a very competent handicapper.Methodical,analytical,well-rounded.
But you just have to use less starch in your shorts!
My post was clearly a bit of light humour!That's all!And if anybody was paying attention,these same two were partly the cause of the $60,000.00 tri at Mohawk Thur. evening!
Cheers!

Phew!!! Am I glad you cleared that with me.

Right now I can use a good laugh.