Selling Info vs Playing picks

[timtam]

I purchased 4 Qtrs of Horse Investing a few weeks ago and read it a few

times before I thought I had the jist of it. I made my own line with my

contenders and then actually purchased Steve Fierros sheet ARL/SAR for

$10 to compare. I even e-mailed him on a few items of interest and then

asked if they archived his sheets so people who shelled out $40-50 for the

book can rely on their own skills rather than buying the sheet. He said

racing digest didn't archive the sheets the way Brisnet does with the Wizard.

I remember Barry Meadows years ago saying alot of these guys make their

living selling the info instead of betting. Steve Fierro was a true gentleman

and was very helpful but the wheels started turning. Am I supposed to do

something the author couldn't do. It makes me nervous when I hear lots of

these experts are driving cabs and taking the bells out of their phones.

It really makes you think. :confused:

[acorn54]

it should make you think
you raise a good point. someone once said he could make more money selling advice that using it
it also makes me wonder about all these guru's such as beyer,christ,et al
we will never know unless they disclose their tax statement on a yearly basis on whether they make a substantial living betting the horses or rely on thier salary from the newspapers they write for.
personally i don't take anybody's info seriously. i have a database of all horseraces run in north america going back to 2005 and do my own research.

[pktruckdriver]

I think this is a really good post, and I wonder wwhat this board will think about your posted question.


Me, I think that the majority of the so-called Guru's make money only from there pick service's, not from playing their picks, my opinion.


Who knows really ,except them, and I feel that they would not be honest with us and reveal their secrets, do you, of course not.


Still nice question though.

[offtrack]

Go easy, there is no they. The individuals that sell selections are each different from each other in their methods and systems.

Guru means teacher, I believe. One is taught very little by buying selections for a day or two.

I have met a few famous selection sellers: none play every race- every day.
Certain race meets, and selective wagering seems to be the strategy.

[lamboguy]

when growing up i was taught you can beat a race, but you can't beat the races. also i was taught it is impossible to time the markets. i found both those statements to be untrue.

in this age of simulcasting, there are no less than 500 races on any good saturday afternoon. i manage to find about 30 of them that meets my criteria.

i bet the same way, without sheets, raceing forms, computerised or manmade programs. i find the more races i bet the better i do. it kinda puts the odds in my favor even though i am paying the race-track percentage. i do not and cannot win without a rebate. after rabate i can show about a 1% profit over a long course of time. another thing is that since i only make 1% it is even a tougher task to win, since alot of the tracks have smaller handles my bets are smaller on those tracks. if i bet $1000 in a day, my profit would be $10.00. to make it worth ones while you would have to bet alot of money. and you would have to have good money management skills. money management is probably more important than picking winners.

[timtam]

Lamboguy,

Are you picking your horses from the odds board and pools?

What types of bets are you making? I am amazed at guys who stand at

the betting machines punching out tickets because I asked one guy one day

Are you taking a typing class ? Thats what it sounded like a typing class.

I'm not knocking anybodys play but I know when I tried doing it

I couldn't.

[lamboguy]

i bet horses that i either know are training well, dropping into conditions, like horses that run for an open nickle, and drop into nw1 to the date races. or horses that run well in tough fields that look like they are facing easier, whether in the same class or drop down. and i also bet horses that come from one track and go to another, like tampa to colonial, or new york to monmouth.
i also stay away from top tracks like keenleand and saratoga, and fairgrouds, and gulfstream. unless i have good info on maiden first time starters, or layoff horses.

[Overlay]

I haven’t read Steve Fierro’s book (although I’ve meant to). However, it seems to me that timtam hit the nail on the head with his comment about people relying on their own skills, rather than buying the sheet. I think that any guidance or method pertaining to the making of fair-odds lines should have six main characteristics:

(1) It should show users how to formulate lines for themselves, so that they don’t have to keep relying on outside products or information that they must pay over and over for, after having already spent money for the book itself.

(2) It should deal in objective, verifiable, quantitative information, rather than subjective opinion, so that everyone using the method outlined by the book follows the same procedure, and arrives at an accurate, uniform result.

(3) It should be compartmentalized, so that if the end result (for whatever reason) starts to underperform or be inaccurate, the user can see exactly which portion of the model is not performing as anticipated (for whatever reason), and can make adjustments accordingly.

(4) It should cover multiple basic handicapping variables, so that it doesn’t become obsolete through overbetting of any one particular factor.

(5) It should be odds-insensitive, through reliance to the greatest extent possible on independent variables that account by themselves for the results they produce, and that aren't influenced or affected by interaction with other attributes as far as their validity is concerned, so that horses that go off as overlays according to the odds line have the same chance of winning as horses that go off as underlays.

(6) It should provide visibility of fair odds for all the horses in a field, so that wagering value can be recognized wherever it occurs, and the method doesn’t become obsolete through overbetting of any one particular type of horse or subgroup of horses.

If a method meets those requirements, I don’t care about what the author (or the rest of the general public) does with the information, since it can’t affect the profitability or durability of my use of it.

[boomman]

I purchased 4 Qtrs of Horse Investing a few weeks ago and read it a few

times before I thought I had the jist of it. I made my own line with my

contenders and then actually purchased Steve Fierros sheet ARL/SAR for

$10 to compare. I even e-mailed him on a few items of interest and then

asked if they archived his sheets so people who shelled out $40-50 for the

book can rely on their own skills rather than buying the sheet. He said

racing digest didn't archive the sheets the way Brisnet does with the Wizard.

I remember Barry Meadows years ago saying alot of these guys make their

living selling the info instead of betting. Steve Fierro was a true gentleman

and was very helpful but the wheels started turning. Am I supposed to do

something the author couldn't do. It makes me nervous when I hear lots of

these experts are driving cabs and taking the bells out of their phones.

It really makes you think. :confused:

I can't speak for the other folks in the business as to what ratio of their income derives from book sales or handicapping services, but I can answer the question personally. I have worked in the horse racing business as a track announcer/ handicapper and FULLTIME bettor for over 25 years, and the only reason that I wrote 2 books and started my handicapping college just a couple of years ago was because a racing fan in a seminar at Yavapai Downs challenged me to give something back in writing and video to help new fans learn our sport. That has always been my sole motivation: do anything I can to bring new fans into the sport and pass along what info I can that works for me on a regular basis to help folks that might be struggling with their own wagering or handicapping techniques............

Boomer

[timtam]

lamboguy,

How do you find horses dropping in conditions if you don't use any kind

of past performances? :confused:

[robert99]

There is a UK website that keeps track of about 200 tipsters and charts their performance. A few are in profit but next year a different few will be in profit.
Even with zero tax, none would make a living wage if backing their own tips. Always a supply of new mugs who believe in Santa Claus at $2000 a month.

http://www.racing-index.com/tipsters/performance-comparison.php

[lamboguy]

i get turfday stats. it tells me which race the horse ran in, and who the other contenders in the race were. it also gives me trainer percentages which i also use.

[Premier Turf Club]

when growing up i was taught you can beat a race, but you can't beat the races. also i was taught it is impossible to time the markets. i found both those statements to be untrue.

And as a PTC customer I can attest to the fact that Lamboguy is a winning player, and precisely because he's doing things most others aren't doing. I have had him question my "big figure" selection (because said animal is coming out of a crappy race), and be right about it often enough to listen to what he has to say.

[Dave Schwartz]

I think that many pick sellers get a bad rap from players "like us" who would just never bet someone else's selections.

That being said, there are a significant number of people who go to the track occasionally and simply want a "second opinion" that they value on a race. The fact that you or I (By our nature) doubt that those public picks are winning propositions in the long run does not diminish their value to such a user.

I talked with a regular pick purchaser one day who told me that the reason he did was that it helped him isolate contenders so that he could concentrate on the those three or four horses. All in all, not a stupid plan by any means.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Premier Turf Club]

I think that many pick sellers get a bad rap from players "like us" who would just never bet someone else's selections.

That being said, there are a significant number of people who go to the track occasionally and simply want a "second opinion" that they value on a race. The fact that you or I (By our nature) doubt that those public picks are winning propositions in the long run does not diminish their value to such a user.

I talked with a regular pick purchaser one day who told me that the reason he did was that it helped him isolate contenders so that he could concentrate on the those three or four horses. All in all, not a stupid plan by any means.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

For example, Bob Selvin and Jeff Siegel's picks are worth a multiple of what they charge. If I played California regularly I'd buy them every day.

[JBmadera]

I don't see anything wrong at all with selling picks/information. There are tons of examples of this outside of horse racing/gambling: Industry analysts, stock analysts, etc, etc.) Bottom line is risk vs. return. If there is an ultrabright handicapper (or stock analyst) out there who wants a return with minimal risk then maybe they go the sell the information route. Not everyone is cut out for the higher risk/higher return of betting/picking stocks. Just because someone has a much lower risk threshold doesn't mean their information/service isn't valuable.

JB

[pktruckdriver]

Come on PTC


If I played So. Cal I buy them everyday, come on man lets be real here.

In my workings with thoses two, I am on the losing end, but when it comes to there workout reports that is a different story altogether, but it is also not a pick service either. It provides info, not picks.

Ian , I believe that you would not buy them everyday, as you could only get losing info for so many days before giving it up and looking elsewhere.

Know this is just MY OPINION ,OF COURSE, OF WHICH I AM ENTITLED TO.

Now Lamboguy is different type of person, and should be listened to as he does not sell picks but does do his homework for himself, and then puts his money where he should, and wins, where the guys you mentioned do not play what they pick, in my opinion, maybe a play or two, but all those plays no way, thay'd be broke.

[Premier Turf Club]

I stand by what I said. I think Bob and Jeff have very good insights, especially with layoffs and first time starters. I didn't say I'd play all of their picks as things change throughout the day (price, bias, important scratches, etc) but I still value their opinions. Personally, I rarely play other people's picks, not never, but rarely, especially when we are dealing with a know commodity.

[InFront]

As I posted several times on this forum and still believe holds true when it comes to selling any product to win at horse racing the ole' saying goes "If it doesn't work - sell it". And "If it really does't work but sounds good really sell the crap out of it".

Over the past 25+ years I have spent thousands of dollars on all kinds of products from paper system/methods, books, tipsheets, selection services, newsletters, courses, data sheets, videos, etc. and still have never seen anything that truely works that was for sale at one time or another. Sure some stuff you may learn a thing or two but most likely if it is or was for sale it will never work "as is" especially those products that give you actual selections like tipsheets, methods, newspapers, tout services, etc.

Think about if you can truely pick winners enough to show long term profits will you sell this information, of course not. Sure you may give a pick to a friend here or there but you're not about to sell it publicly to the world or even 50 players. This can quickly turn in a blink of an eye your winning handicapping process into a overall loser. I believe those who sell "such stuff" do it for one reason and that is to make money on something that they are pretty darn sure will lose overtime. If they had some really good knowledge that is the stuff they will hold back and tell no one ever!

Now there is one type of product that yes the seller wants to make money from just the same but I don't believe it is all a waste of money. That is non-blackbox computer database programs. Here the seller is selling a product that you are using as a "tool" to maybe try and come up with your own customized handicapped selections based on your own years and years of knowledge and research. Sure some of these computers programs are crap and some are much better than others. That is something you need to weed out on your own. But at least as long as they are not some silly computer software that just spits out the same picks to all buyers and is instead a very customizable and flexible software "database" program then I think something like that is at least worth more than spending a dime on any or all of those other zillion products that are being sold through the mail or are now plastered all over the Internet. Don't believe me go ahead and start buying all these "other" kinds of horse racing products that claim to be outright winners and find out the hard way.

[lamboguy]

if you use byer numbers, speed numbers or any other type of number you will go broke. maybe if you want to use them as a guide to see if the horse fits the race. there is no substitution for a horse training better than he has ever trained. those type of horses tend to out run their numbers. just an example, you have a horse that never breaks and all of a sudden he is right on the pace, it throughs the rest of the contenders for a loop, because no one expected that type of pace from this horse.
good trainers train their horses for toughness first then speed. example here was kelly breen's horse, dixie union. she got chicken from the rail due to poor preparation in my opinion. something like that would never happen from an assmussen runner. an assmussen horse may not be as fast as the other horse, but he don't send horses that are chickens into a horse race.

[cj]

if you use byer numbers, speed numbers or any other type of number you will go broke...

Maybe if YOU use numbers YOU would go broke.

[rrbauer]

There are no "silver bullets" in this game. I think it is wise to question what people are selling and why they are selling it. I liked the Fiero book (basis for the original post in the thread) but it really doesn't filt my playing style which is mostly multiple-race serial bets. From an individual perspective the game is about your money. Put the money where it works!

[lamboguy]

i know guys that are percieved as being great handicappers, they are sheet players, and sheet players only. they are looking to borrow money off you CJ.

maybe i should give them your adress!

one more thing i want to add, no matter what system you have, without solid money management tools in place, you will go broke.

[cj]

i know guys that are percieved as being great handicappers, they are sheet players, and sheet players only. they are looking to borrow money off you CJ.

maybe i should give them your adress!

one more thing i want to add, no matter what system you have, without solid money management tools in place, you will go broke.

You can find guys that lose using any method. I doubt I could win using your methods. It just isn't my cup of tea. It doesn't mean it doesn't work for you.

You have to find your niche in this game.

[Tom]

I just love these guys who know what works for everyone else. :lol:

[Jeff P]

if you use byer numbers, speed numbers or any other type of number you will go broke. maybe if you want to use them as a guide to see if the horse fits the race. there is no substitution for a horse training better than he has ever trained. those type of horses tend to out run their numbers.
Lamboguy, understand that I'm not picking on you... just thowing something out there as food for thought...

When it comes to "a horse training better than he has ever trained," what makes you think somebody hasn't already created a decent "number" to encapsulate that?


-jp

.

[lamboguy]

i don't think that numbers are based on what happens in the morning. lots of things can go wrong with a horse that doesn't show up until after the race. like a philly being in season, or a horse that has a toothache. or a horse that lost one of its shoe. or the horse had pharangitis. if you want to know if a horse has pharangitis ahead of the race you have to scope him and pay for it.
i know trainers that scope all their horses before the race. to me louis ruberto is one of the finest trainers i have ever met. he scopes his horses before they run. he has alot of scratches but also a very high percentage last year, 40% win. maybe a number has his win percentage built into it.

[Bruddah]

You can find guys that lose using any method. I doubt I could win using your methods. It just isn't my cup of tea. It doesn't mean it doesn't work for you.

You have to find your niche in this game.

Each player has to find his own success or continue wallowing in losses. It took me almost 30 years to find and settle on my niche. It works very well and is profitable. Finding your own succesful formula and ingredients takes a lot of patience. But, well worth it when you do.

Here's to all those still experimenting. :ThmbUp:

[TrifectaMike]

if you use byer numbers, speed numbers or any other type of number you will go broke. maybe if you want to use them as a guide to see if the horse fits the race. there is no substitution for a horse training better than he has ever trained. those type of horses tend to out run their numbers. just an example, you have a horse that never breaks and all of a sudden he is right on the pace, it throughs the rest of the contenders for a loop, because no one expected that type of pace from this horse.
good trainers train their horses for toughness first then speed. example here was kelly breen's horse, dixie union. she got chicken from the rail due to poor preparation in my opinion. something like that would never happen from an assmussen runner. an assmussen horse may not be as fast as the other horse, but he don't send horses that are chickens into a horse race.

You have given a good definition of race chaos. Is it measurable? I believe so. So, it can be represented by numbers ( modelled ). A majority of races are subject to chaos. If you approach racing from a macro level, numbers are extremely valuable. If you approach racing from a micro level, then a mutilplicity of factors are useful. Either approach can work. But in the end wager contructs are more important.

Mike

[podonne]

I think there's one situation where you might be able to buy picks. I've been working on a betting strategy based on negative factors and the same software that looks for negative factors could easily look for positive ones, even though they would be useless to me.

So if you found someone who was selling picks for whatever reason, but the picks don't fit their strategy, then they might be viable if sold. For instance, if I had two angles, one that returned 300% and one that returned 200%, it would make sense to sell the 200 t get some cash to put more into the 300.

[dutchboy]

Syndicate from Australia betting 100million+ per year in to the Hong Kong and Japan races used 3 different workgroups to invest their money.

One group would develop and maintain the software and databases.

Second group managed the finances.

Third and most important according to the owner were the people who actually decided where and when and how much to bet. The third group were highly educated with a background in stock and commodity trading. Theory was that without the background as a trader of large amounts of money they would not be willing to take the risks and be able to handle the fluctuations.

Scared money can't win and a large percentage of horseplayers come up with a new plan if they lose 3 races in a row. They may never know if a plan would provide a profit long term.

[traynor]

<snip>
Third and most important according to the owner were the people who actually decided where and when and how much to bet. The third group were highly educated with a background in stock and commodity trading. Theory was that without the background as a trader of large amounts of money they would not be willing to take the risks and be able to handle the fluctuations.

Scared money can't win and a large percentage of horseplayers come up with a new plan if they lose 3 races in a row. They may never know if a plan would provide a profit long term.</snip>

The process is an interesting one; the "group" concept involves a totally different dynamic than a number of people agreeing on which selections to bet. In any such group, the pecking order is quickly established, and the "lesser" analysts defer to the selections--intentionally or otherwise--of the "better" analyst. The workaround is for one person to make the final choice, based on input from multiple sources, none of whom are aware of the selections of the others.

[lamboguy]

why would anyone want to pay for picks. look at who are selling them. they are either to lazy to work or to yellow to steal.

those pickpocket artists have picks every single day. sometimes on every single race. some of them use computer generated numbers, which to me, means absolutely nothing. everyone who comes on this board claims to be a winner at this game. i guess i am skeptical. i know there is now way you can beat math. i flat out loose, almost every single day. that is 100% the truth. i never make big scores, and i never try to make them. i bet 12 hours a day 365 days a year. i buy no racing forms, get no numbers, and handicap by watching replay's of races and from memory. i also try to find out to the best of my ability if a horse is training well before i bet my money.

in the course of a 365 day year i will show some type of a profit, often quite small to tell the truth.

the thing that is killing me is the guys that can bet after the race starts, it hurts my payoffs, if it don't stop soon, like pronto, i am gonna quit.

not only am i gonna quit, but i got a few friends that will as well. i wonder how many guys the racing industry in north america can afford to lose, i wonder if the shirts will have their jobs much longer if they choose not to adress this improper situation.

[Dave Schwartz]

Syndicate from Australia betting 100million+ per year in to the Hong Kong and Japan races used 3 different workgroups to invest their money.

Dutch,

May I ask how you know this?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[lamboguy]

this is from my mother, god bless her!

those that tell don't know, and those that know don't tell

[jonnielu]

Maybe if YOU use numbers YOU would go broke.

Whatever CJ says on this note, goes double from me.

cj

[jonnielu]

There are no "silver bullets" in this game. I think it is wise to question what people are selling and why they are selling it. I liked the Fiero book (basis for the original post in the thread) but it really doesn't filt my playing style which is mostly multiple-race serial bets. From an individual perspective the game is about your money. Put the money where it works!

That is a popular idea that keeps people from looking for silver bullets, I don't wonder why they can't find any. You see it, when you believe it.
jdl

[PaceAdvantage]

everyone who comes on this board claims to be a winner at this game.No they don't. Absolutely not true. In fact, many times, just the opposite occurs.

[jonnielu]

why would anyone want to pay for picks. look at who are selling them. they are either to lazy to work or to yellow to steal.

those pickpocket artists have picks every single day. sometimes on every single race. some of them use computer generated numbers, which to me, means absolutely nothing. everyone who comes on this board claims to be a winner at this game. i guess i am skeptical. i know there is now way you can beat math. i flat out loose, almost every single day. that is 100% the truth. i never make big scores, and i never try to make them. i bet 12 hours a day 365 days a year. i buy no racing forms, get no numbers, and handicap by watching replay's of races and from memory. i also try to find out to the best of my ability if a horse is training well before i bet my money.

in the course of a 365 day year i will show some type of a profit, often quite small to tell the truth.

the thing that is killing me is the guys that can bet after the race starts, it hurts my payoffs, if it don't stop soon, like pronto, i am gonna quit.

not only am i gonna quit, but i got a few friends that will as well. i wonder how many guys the racing industry in north america can afford to lose, i wonder if the shirts will have their jobs much longer if they choose not to adress this improper situation.

So, if I say that I can show you how to win consistently, what do you say? I'm doing weekend seminars at KEE in Oct., that are satisfaction guaranteed. I am so sure that I could turn you around, you've got an invite to attend without prepayment. Pay me what it is worth on the backend.

jdl

[steve fierro]

Hey folks,

Just happened to pop into the forum and catch this thread. Just a couple of items. First, not everyone that does public handicapping is in it for the same reasons. I can only speak for myself.

I make my betting line sheets for myself to use and it fits my style of play. Even the comments attached to the betting lines are put their to jog my memory about a race ( I do them 48 hours out) I hooked up with the digest over ten years ago because one of the staff members their was told that they would be an added tool for the digest. I always respected the digest so I came on board.

There is a very incorrect assumption made in some of the comments in this thread about how much money is made from doing this. Guess again.

In my case I have some folks that have used them for years in various ways. It is not a sytem and by putting the lines out there it has never hurt my price at the windows.

Books: Once again there are some incorrect assumptions made on why (some folks) write about handicapping and how much money is made. In my case Mark Cramer saw the betting lines in the digest monitored them for a few months and mentioned that I had landed upon a easy format that he and others had failed to put out there for players that were looking to use a betting line approach to the game. I did not want to write it. I am not a writer. It took two and a half years and was only completed because Mark kept me going. I would not do it again. I have put in print all I can say about what I do. Racing is a small market and you do not head to a private island with profits from a book. I think it was Overlay Productions that had a great reply in this thread about books. If Overlay will contact the digest they will give you my personal e-mail and I will send you one. By the way it was this forum and some of the great reviews about the book that made me feel a whole lot better that I had taken the time to do it.

I had more to add but this is long enough.

Thanks
Steve Fierro

P.S. Where's the spell check?

[Overlay]

Topics that I found very useful information on with regard to my particular handicapping perspective (creation of full-field fair-odds lines, and wagering based on the presence of betting value) as a result of reading The Four Quarters of Horse Investing:

* Race typing (both from the standpoint of selecting contenders, and from the perspective of finding value, and how to deal with all the possible combinations of the different race types for each of those two factors)

* Filters for playing or passing races, and for wagering on playable races, depending on the number of contenders and overlays

* Dealing with late scratches

* Dealing with the differing types of favorites (legitimate; false; prohibitive)

Discussion of each of those topics (as well as of other subjects covered) was thorough, logical, and understandable. (The areas that I mentioned certainly weren't all that the book dealt with, but those were the subjects that were of the most interest to me.)

If (as some board members have indicated) the gaining of just one useful insight makes a handicapping reference worth reading, I'd say that this book should be part of any player's knowledge base (although I'm sure that those who have not yet read it will find that it speaks for itself, and requires no opinion from me in that regard).

[DanG]

Scared money can't win and a large percentage of horseplayers come up with a new plan if they lose 3 races in a row. They may never know if a plan would provide a profit long term.
There is much wisdom in this statement. :ThmbUp:

This game will test your resolve even more then it tests your intelligence.

[RaceBookJoe]

There is much wisdom in this statement. :ThmbUp:

This game will test your resolve even more then it tests your intelligence.

Yes there is Dan...who is to say that the next one would not have been a winner. Also, by jumping to another plan...who is to say that you might hit another bad streak...which will make the overall losing streak even longer. With enough study you will know if your plan works or not...before you take a hit moneywise. rbj

[Imriledup]

Normally, i would say that if you can make money on your picks and information, you don't sell it. I think the most valuable service would be a service of selling INFORMATION and not selling picks or telling a person who to bet on. Most people who call a service are probably not doing much of their own research, therefore, they are just relying on the plays that the tout is telling them to play.

The problem here is that the tout doesn't have the luxury of seeing late odds changes, track bias, which trainers and riders are hot early in the card or the very important warmup. Once the tout puts his pick on paper or on a phone line, its YOUR job, as the purchaser, to scrutinize that pick, to make sure it warms up well and its providing value on the toteboard.

The best information services will tell a customer why they like the horse, tell them what is a fair win price also. Its the customer's job to take the information provided and incorporate that into their OWN handicapping.

No matter how many services you call, you still need to be really on top of the betting day. You need to have done your own intense handicapping and use the service as a SUPPLEMENT. If you do zero work and just blindly bet a service, you aren't going to do as well as if you did your own work and just used them in addition to your already winning handicapping.

I can't stress enough that if you don't do ANY work and just call a service, you can slaughtered even if that service is fantastic. They can release a bunch of winners to you, but if you don't know enough to know if those winners are good value or not, it doesn't matter. If you are betting the tout's 2-1 shot who SHOULD be 5-2, it doesnt matter how many winners he releases, its a long run losing play.

You should be purchasing the service's TIME. If you are into calling services or buying information, you need to make sure that you are getting something from the service that you didn't have time to do on your own. In essence, you are hiring an assistant to do the grinding for you.

[DanG]

Ton’s of good points here, (Post #44 a recent example) but I still feel there is a basic confusion among some concerning “picks” vs. “information”.

There is “Jacks Little Green Card” and there is ‘information that can be interpreted six ways from Sunday. Two entirely different propositions and is the reason a good player / can sell good information and not have it severely impact their own game.
http://i3.iofferphoto.com/img/1153810800/_i/13122538/1.jpg

.

[tribecaagent]

Dutch,

May I ask how you know this?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Dave,

I hope Dutch doesn't mind me speaking for him....but I just read this thread, and the Australian/Hong Kong syndicates are fascinating. So I Googled "betting syndicates" and dug this up.

http://www.insidepokermag.co.uk/racing/features/137/the_life_hong_kong_betting_syndicates.html