The Personal Ensign

[joanied]

No one has posted on this race tomorrow...and it should be a hell :jump: of a race!!
Great field of mares here and I expect to see Unbrideled Belle & Ginger Punch knocking it out down the stretch...UB's strides eatin' up the track, and GP's courage to the test...Lemon Drop Mom right there too...
I love both UB and GP...but the nod goes to:ThmbUp: Ginger, and it would make my day for her to win this. (I also love Bobby F....he gave me a lot of winners way back in the day)
:)

[46zilzal]

I just reviewed The BloodHorse's review of that 5th Breeder's Cup and the remarkable win by Personal Ensign. A lot of people foget that she was running with several bone screws in her hind limb to support a fracture she sustained in training. Even McGaughey thought that she was done at the 1/8th pole and even HE was surprised. This one had beaten the boys twice on the way to that muddy phenomenal victory that gray day at Churchill Downs.

[PaceAdvantage]

A lot of people foget that she was running with several bone screws in her hind limb to support a fracture she sustained in training.Oh my, imagine if this horse was trained by someone like Lukas...imagine what they would have been saying "How can he knowingly run a horse with bone screws!!!"

But, because it was Shug, nothing was ever said (in fact, I don't recall ever hearing about PE running with screws)...

And yet, I'm sure we'll read 100 more times about how Lady's Secret bolted in her last race because she didn't want to race anymore, but mean old evil Lukas had other plans....

I can only imagine what some of you might have been saying if Lukas had trained PE and sent her out to run with screws in....

[46zilzal]

Oh my, imagine if this horse was trained by someone like Lukas...imagine what they would have been saying "How can he knowingly run a horse with bone screws!!!"

But, because it was Shug, nothing was ever said (in fact, I don't recall ever hearing about PE running with screws)...

And yet, I'm sure we'll read 100 more times about how Lady's Secret bolted in her last race because she didn't want to race anymore, but mean old evil Lukas had other plans....

I can only imagine what some of you might have been saying if Lukas had trained PE and sent her out to run with screws in....

This animal, UNLIKE D. Wayne's crippled crew, was determined SOUND by everyone (typical of any horse running under the cherry red and black silks of the Phipp's.... akin to Storm Flag Flying which was retired when there were suggested problems unlike D. Wayne. They can't use a dead animal in their breeding program made up mostly of homebreds) and left the race course on all four solid limbs, unlike the multiple euthanized and forever broken down by
the breakdown KING.

The comparison has NO merit whatsoever. Why does that NOT surprise me however?

[joanied]

Oh my, imagine if this horse was trained by someone like Lukas...imagine what they would have been saying "How can he knowingly run a horse with bone screws!!!"

But, because it was Shug, nothing was ever said (in fact, I don't recall ever hearing about PE running with screws)...

And yet, I'm sure we'll read 100 more times about how Lady's Secret bolted in her last race because she didn't want to race anymore, but mean old evil Lukas had other plans....

I can only imagine what some of you might have been saying if Lukas had trained PE and sent her out to run with screws in....

I have about 2 minutes here...need to get out to one of our malt barley fileds as I have a truck full and ready to deliver to Budweiser...I want to get into this thread...
be back ASAP... I just read about both these fillies in a great book...to be continued.

[PaceAdvantage]

This animal, UNLIKE D. Wayne's crippled crew, was determined SOUND by everyone (typical of any horse running under the cherry red and black silks of the Phipp's.... akin to Storm Flag Flying which was retired when there were suggested problems unlike D. Wayne. They can't use a dead animal in their breeding program made up mostly of homebreds) and left the race course on all four solid limbs, unlike the multiple euthanized and forever broken down by
the breakdown KING.

The comparison has NO merit whatsoever. Why does that NOT surprise me however?Hey, 46, when is that D. Wayne article of yours going to be published? Or did you findings not match your pre-conceived notions of the man?

Overbrook doesn't like using dead animals in their breeding program either, last time I checked.

[joanied]

In the book "Best & Worst of TB Racing'.... D Wayne had 12 break down, not including Landaluce who died of some mysterious illness.
As for Lady's Secret...after she was beaten 32 lengths in her first start in 1987, he should have retired her right then...they knew she was sour on racing, yet he went and ran her again...in the race where she bolted to the outside rail and didn't finish...IMO, he should never have put her through that...and shame on him for doing it.

Personal Ensign...was nursed along slowly after her ankle surgery...it was just short of a year when she came back, and that after she was given a clean bill of soundness...and after 4 consecutive wins, they put her away again, because Shaug didn't want her to have any stress in shipping to CA for the BC.....and... the rest, as they say, is history....and obviously, she was as sound as any horse could be.

I am a fan of D Wayne...always have been, but, still, he was awful hard on some of his horses, and although no one really knows when or if, a horse may break down...he does have a long list of casualties, and IMO, some may have been avoided if he'd done the right thing with a horse that wasn't quite right and he ran it anyway.

[classhandicapper]

I suspect that a lot of the decision making is dependent on the economics and attitudes of the handlers. There are times when it's pretty clear that a horse is on the downside and feeling the effects of a tough career. Despite that, some of them can still easily far outearn their keep without huge incremental risk of a breakdown. Some people in that position can and will put the horse first because they can afford to, are animal lovers, want to preserve the horse's record and dignity etc.... They will either retire the horse or give it as much time as it needs. Others are not in that position or are more motivated by economics. They take calculated risks that will lead to some embarrassing losses and even a rare breakdown.

[46zilzal]

Hey, 46, when is that D. Wayne article of yours going to be published? Or did you findings not match your pre-conceived notions of the man?

When and IF, I get to use the national archive at Woodbine. If I cannot get to the actual data, it would be a point difficult to prove. I will know soon, as I am there this week for the Canadian Thoroughbred Hall of Fame inductions on Thursday August 28th.

My other article is to be in The Game, I was told, this month, but I have not received it yet.

[joanied]

I suspect that a lot of the decision making is dependent on the economics and attitudes of the handlers. There are times when it's pretty clear that a horse is on the downside and feeling the effects of a tough career. Despite that, some of them can still easily far outearn their keep without huge incremental risk of a breakdown. Some people in that position can and will put the horse first because they can afford to, are animal lovers, want to preserve the horse's record and dignity etc.... They will either retire the horse or give it as much time as it needs. Others are not in that position or are more motivated by economics. They take calculated risks that will lead to some embarrassing losses and even a rare breakdown.

That is all well & good...and it's what Personal Ensign's people did...gave her all the time she needed and then some...but we are talking about D Wayne and what he did to Lady's Secret...now, those folks could sure as hell afford not to run her anymore...both the owner's and Lukas himself...what more could they have possibly wanted from that Champion to have raced her again...twice...when they knew, knew she was done. What a sorry way to end her race career....again...shame on them!!

[PaceAdvantage]

That is all well & good...and it's what Personal Ensign's people did...gave her all the time she needed and then some...but we are talking about D Wayne and what he did to Lady's Secret...now, those folks could sure as hell afford not to run her anymore...both the owner's and Lukas himself...what more could they have possibly wanted from that Champion to have raced her again...twice...when they knew, knew she was done. What a sorry way to end her race career....again...shame on them!!So why don't you try and answer the question for them...why do you think they raced her again? Was it the owner, perhaps, who was pushing to race her again? Why does all the blame go on D. Wayne?

Maybe 46 has interviewed D. Wayne for his upcoming article, and the answer to this mystery will be revealed soon enough. :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

...he does have a long list of casualties, and IMO, some may have been avoided if he'd done the right thing with a horse that wasn't quite right and he ran it anyway.So, you're saying that you and "everyone else" knew the horse "wasn't quite right," and yet the OWNER and TRAINER of the horse go ahead and race them anyway....what the hell sense does that make?

The fact of the matter is, that you and everyone else "knew" the horse "wasn't quite right" AFTER it hurt itself, or after it broke down, or after it died. Then, our human brains make connections that make everything look obvious in hindsight, when in reality, perhaps things weren't so obvious before the unthinkable happens.

As for D. Wayne's "long list of casualties," perhaps if 46zilzal ever gets around to completing his loudly touted upcoming expose on D. Wayne, he can tell us exactly what D. Wayne's ratio of breakdowns to number of starters is compared to other top trainers. Remember, in his prime, D. Wayne had a huge stable. Of course he's going to have more breakdowns than most other trainers....he's running more horses that most other trainers.

[joanied]

So why don't you try and answer the question for them...why do you think they raced her again? Was it the owner, perhaps, who was pushing to race her again? Why does all the blame go on D. Wayne?

Maybe 46 has interviewed D. Wayne for his upcoming article, and the answer to this mystery will be revealed soon enough. :rolleyes:

What question?? Why did they race Lady's Secret again...when she didn't run a lick, and pretty much told them she didn't want to race anymore? Then, they run her again and she tells them loud & clear...I'm done. The first time should have been enough...yet they run her again...PA, matters not who decided to run her that last time...if it was the owner, then shame on him...but, Lukas being Lukas, if he had been adamant about not running her again...if he would have explained to her owner that the mare was done, she was a Champion and had given them more than enough...it was time to retire her, I beleive, because he IS D Wayne Lukas, the owner would have understood and retired her.....I mean, if you owned a horse trained by Lukas, considering he's a brilliant trainer, wouldn't you listen to him?
But, we don't know what transpired over Lady's Secret, and never will (unless 46 has it in his article)...so to be fair, let's lay the blame on both her trainer & owner.

[joanied]

So, you're saying that you and "everyone else" knew the horse "wasn't quite right," and yet the OWNER and TRAINER of the horse go ahead and race them anyway....what the hell sense does that make?

The fact of the matter is, that you and everyone else "knew" the horse "wasn't quite right" AFTER it hurt itself, or after it broke down, or after it died. Then, our human brains make connections that make everything look obvious in hindsight, when in reality, perhaps things weren't so obvious before the unthinkable happens.

As for D. Wayne's "long list of casualties," perhaps if 46zilzal ever gets around to completing his loudly touted upcoming expose on D. Wayne, he can tell us exactly what D. Wayne's ratio of breakdowns to number of starters is compared to other top trainers. Remember, in his prime, D. Wayne had a huge stable. Of course he's going to have more breakdowns than most other trainers....he's running more horses that most other trainers.

A quotes from the Steve Davidowitz book (Best & Worst of TB Racing)---

"Lukas frequently put his young horses through rigorous training regimens. When one failed to make the cut, or went lame, Lukas knew he had several highly fancied horses waiting in the wings to occupy that same stall space"
(sounds pretty callous to me)

"Through the years he attracted a steady stream of media citicism for a significant number of top horses that broke down or left racing a mere shell of their best form" ( A mere shell....hmmmm...sounds like a discription of Lady's Secret to me)

Davidowitz goes on to say, about his placement of Lukas on his Top Dozen Trainers list and #2 ranked...."It is this side of the Lukas ledger that limits his placement below the very top of this list"

He then lists many of the Lukas trained break downs, high lighting Union City...talk of the horse being unsound circulated on the backstretch, before the Kentucky Derby. After finishing 15th, astute observers watched the awkward steps he took while being lead back to the barn. Clocker Mickey Solomon to me (Davidowitz) that Union City didn't look good leaving the track, and doubted the horse would run in the Preakness.
We know what happened next to Union City.

Yes, Lukas ran a huge stable, so I suppose he would have more breakdowns if you use percentages per starter....but have you considered that because he had a huge stable, rich owners and another horse readily available to replace one that did break down (in the mornings as well as in a race) that maybe the man simply was not as careful or careing as he should have been.
Again, I have always been a fan of D Wayne, but the facts speak for themselves, PA.

[PaceAdvantage]

He then lists many of the Lukas trained break downs, high lighting Union City...talk of the horse being unsound circulated on the backstretch, before the Kentucky Derby. After finishing 15th, astute observers watched the awkward steps he took while being lead back to the barn. Clocker Mickey Solomon to me (Davidowitz) that Union City didn't look good leaving the track, and doubted the horse would run in the Preakness.
We know what happened next to Union City.I have an obvious question. If everyone and their mother-in-law knew Union City had gone bad prior to the Preakness, why in the world would an experienced trainer such as Lukas and experienced owner/breeder such as W.T. Young run the horse?

If he was indeed hurt, they absolutely knew he had little chance of running well. Plus they risk a potential stallion prospect for their breeding operation. Not to mention the brutality of running an injured animal in one of racing's more demanding races.

This wasn't a claiming race where they were looking to unload a hurt horse. What could possibly be the rationale?

Could it be that whatever caused Union City to appear "not right" to these supposed "astute observers" was something that was either fixable or was being managed throughout his career? After all, we all know that there isn't a trainer alive who hasn't managed/raced a horse with some sort of nagging problem.

If you don't believe the above as a possibility, then the only other conclusion is that Young/Lukas are Satan and Son-of-Satan. Take your pick.

[joanied]

I have an obvious question. If everyone and their mother-in-law knew Union City had gone bad prior to the Preakness, why in the world would an experienced trainer such as Lukas and experienced owner/breeder such as W.T. Young run the horse?
That's a good question...I sure can't answer it. I was simply quoting what was in this book, and I seriuosly doubt the author would include information that wasn't correct in every way.
If he was indeed hurt, they absolutely knew he had little chance of running well. Plus they risk a potential stallion prospect for their breeding operation. Not to mention the brutality of running an injured animal in one of racing's more demanding races.
There obviously was something wrong with the horse, why would the clocker mention the horse wasn't right if he wasn't...I suppose maybe Lukas figured what ever it was he did have it under control and felt the horse would be OK. That is the only thing I can come up with as an excuse...that Lukas was pretty dure the horse would be OK to run.
This wasn't a claiming race where they were looking to unload a hurt horse. What could possibly be the rationale?
Winning a Triple Crown race.
Could it be that whatever caused Union City to appear "not right" to these supposed "astute observers" was something that was either fixable or was being managed throughout his career? After all, we all know that there isn't a trainer alive who hasn't managed/raced a horse with some sort of nagging problem.
yes, maybe Union City was a hurting horse and they figured he'd be OK to run, as I mentioned above...every trainer does it...they send out a horse that isn't 100% and take a cahnce that everything will be all right...unfortunatley, for Union City, it wasn't.

If you don't believe the above as a possibility, then the only other conclusion is that Young/Lukas are Satan and Son-of-Satan. Take your pick.
Of course all you wrote are possibles...anything is possible...and again: these are facts, not fiction...so we can each draw our own conclusions...mine is that Lukas ran a hurting horse and gambled on the outcome.
And let's not get ridiculous here...I've stated before, I'm a Lukas fan, and Mr Young was such a wonderful person I'd call him a saint before I'd say he, OR Lukas were Satan & Son of Satan...now that IS ridiculous!!
:)

[PaceAdvantage]

I've stated before, I'm a Lukas fan, and Mr Young was such a wonderful person I'd call him a saint before I'd say he, OR Lukas were Satan & Son of Satan...now that IS ridiculous!!
:)No, it's not ridiculous at all, if in fact they ran Union City in the manner in which they are often accused.

I agree with you, which is why I prefer to look towards other explanations, not the conventional wisdom of "Oh well, he's a butcher...." If we take that as the explanation, then WT Young becomes a butcher as well, and I doubt they were both butchers.

[joanied]

No, it's not ridiculous at all, if in fact they ran Union City in the manner in which they are often accused.

I agree with you, which is why I prefer to look towards other explanations, not the conventional wisdom of "Oh well, he's a butcher...." If we take that as the explanation, then WT Young becomes a butcher as well, and I doubt they were both butchers.

I don't think there are other explanations...the one we came up with, that Lukas sincerely thought the horse would be OK to run, is our explanation and we are giving Lukas the benefit of the doubt...but for it to be written in a well researched book (if it were not true, no doubt the author would have been in some hot water) gives pause to Lukas' training, at least of Union City.
As for Mr.Young, I beleive that he beleived in Lukas and would agree to most anything Lukas wanted to do with his horses. (no one said Lukas is a butcher, so please, PA, don't add words like that to this discussion)

[PaceAdvantage]

(no one said Lukas is a butcher, so please, PA, don't add words like that to this discussion)You are joking, correct? I've been hearing Lukas referred to as a butcher by one person or another for the better part of 15 years now...

[equicom]

I can only imagine what some of you might have been saying if Lukas had trained PE and sent her out to run with screws in....

Is there some sort of anti-DWL movement here, then?

[joanied]

You are joking, correct? I've been hearing Lukas referred to as a butcher by one person or another for the better part of 15 years now...

Maybe so....but you never saw ME refer to him as such.

[joanied]

Is there some sort of anti-DWL movement here, then?

No, I don't think so...I quoted several things from a book anf PA has taken me to task on it...I also stated I'm a fan of Lukas, despite the 'rep' he seems to have taken with some of his training methods.
If there is an anit-DWL movement, I'm not part of it. And if he had trained Personal Ensign, I would hope the results of her race career would have been the same...but, maybe he wouldn't have given her a year off after her surgery...who knows?? Bottom line with PE is what she did after the surgery, which IMO, obviously states that she returned, despite the screws, a sound horse.

[equicom]

Glad to hear that Joanie.

As a trainer myself, I was always primarily concerned with the welfare of the horse. But we must also keep in mind that the decision about bringing a horse back into work is not always up to the trainer. Sometimes the owners insist on it.

I realise that this smacks of a "Nuremberg Defence", but the reality is that for trainers who are a lot further down the tree than Lukas, it's a Catch-22 situation. They know the horse is good, they probably have a lot of faith in the veterinarian's ability, and if they disobey the owner and the horse goes to another trainer who wins the race, then it doesn't do one bit of good for the trainer's reputation.

Before the horse makes it to the starting gate he or she will have been tested quite thoroughly and put under a lot of stress at home. Trainers will usually conclude that if the horse has made it through all that and stood up to the test, they're probably OK to race as well. Strictly speaking from a personal point-of-view, if I were in a situation where my hand was forced and I had to run a horse, I'd still insist on an X-ray to check for any signs of stress in the damaged limb. If there was even the slightest abnormality, I would not run the horse, owner or no owner.

[speed]

D. Wayne's high profile owners had 1 main goal, the Kentucky Derby. He had to push many of his young horses for this reason. Would he have pushed them that hard under different circumstances?

[classhandicapper]

No, it's not ridiculous at all, if in fact they ran Union City in the manner in which they are often accused.

I agree with you, which is why I prefer to look towards other explanations, not the conventional wisdom of "Oh well, he's a butcher...." If we take that as the explanation, then WT Young becomes a butcher as well, and I doubt they were both butchers.

I think it gets back to what I was saying before.

People take calculated risks.

I have no insight at all into how Union City was doing prior to the Preakness. Here's a hypothetical though.

Assuming Union City had a problem, Team Lukas may have concluded that it wasn't severe enough to warrant skipping a race because the horse could still easily bring back a big check and increase his value while the incremental risk of a breakdown was "extremely" minor.

Someone else might have have totally agreed with his conclusion but put the sound economics lower on the priority list and passed the race to give the horse time.

I suspect that marginal decisions like this are made all the time.

[joanied]

equicom, classhandicapper, speed,
I think we're all pretty much on the same page here, you too PA...
with few exceptions, trainers do have the welfare of their horses top of the list...and it is a known fact that DWL has had a lot of breakdowns in the past, seems there haven't been any of later years, which is good... seems we all agree that Union City was a hurting horse... they took a chance, and it ended badly.
I realize that most owners have the final word, but the good owners, as they say, allow their trainer to have the final word, which is wise because the trainer really knows best....as for DWL owners, in particular, Mr. Young, I beleive that this man would never push for gain and glory and put that above the welfare of his horses...so in the case of Union City, at least, I beleive Lukas did have the final word and that Mr. Young trusted him to do the right thing.

It IS complicated and varied, trainer to trainer, owner to owner, and in thinking about it, the vet does play into the equation, big time....so in most cases, the blame for any breakdown may very well lie with the vet...yes indeed, complicated to say the least.

But...all things said, as for the Lukas breakdowns, they were years ago, so we could probably say it's all kinda mute now...the good thing is that now the industry is finally getting their collective heads out of their butts and maybe breakdowns will eventually become few & far between...and IMO, I beleive it all starts with the vets, and goes up the ladder from there.

Whew:faint: