Maybe it is about oil?

[Dave Schwartz]

but not in the way you might think...

Who will benefit if Saddam stays in power? Interesting article.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

[mezmac]

Dave:

Excellent article.......the truth speaks....how refreshing.

[Tom]

Apparently all the whores in France are not in the Le Cage au Follies! If France is a whore, then what are Germany, Russia, and China?
Jacques? (hehe)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure"
- --Jacques Chirac, President of France

Well, if you re France, Jacques, yes, that is true.

BTW, I am having French Dip for dinner tonight. Wonder what time he will get here! (HEHEHE)

[hcap]

Well here I am again taking the other side

If you want to look at this from a historical point of view I think you have to realize that the middle east and surrounding region, have been the target of the western (including Russia) powers since the last century (late 1800's). The conflict has even been named " The Great Game"
Many of the recent territorial divisions of this predominantly arab area were carved up by the west, particularly Britain.

Dave, The Heritage Foundation is a right wing think tank. Not always the provider of ALL the info. There are other sources
In fact these are articles from mainstream media and newspapers-not even the commie pinko stuff I usually read.

As of July 20, 2001
From
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/iraq010720_cooley.html

"July 20 — Even as Saddam Hussein vows to use his country's oil as a weapon in the Middle East conflict, American companies are buying most of Iraq's U.N.-approved oil exports, oil industry sources tell ABCNEWS.com
An authoritative Iraqi source says that as much as 90 percent of the actual amount of Iraq's estimated 1.8 million barrels per day (bpd) are going to U.S. Gulf coast refineries.

"Most of Iraq's oil exports in July are destined to the U.S., with a few going to Europe," reported the authoritative oil journal Middle East Economic Survey.

There's such demand for Iraqi crude in the United States, the report says, that Saddam is banking on it to mitigate the Bush administration's enmity toward his dictatorship in Iraq, and therefore, any attempts to oust him

As of February 21, 2003
From
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44801-2003Feb21.html

"UNITED NATIONS, Feb. 21 -- American oil refineries have dramatically increased their reliance on Iraqi crude, even as the Bush administration steps up preparations for a military attack against Baghdad, to offset a shortfall in oil imports caused by a recent political crisis in Venezuela.
The United States has more than doubled its consumption of Iraqi crude over the past two months, buying more than $1.6 billion in Iraqi oil through foreign middlemen between Dec. 5 and Feb. 1, according to unpublished U.N. figures."

----Further down in the article we find-----

Although Iraq rarely sells oil directly to American oil companies, Exxon Mobil Corp., ChevronTexaco Corp., Valero Energy Corp. and other U.S. firms have purchased more than half of Iraq's oil through foreign middlemen since the oil-for-food program came into existence. Spokesmen for Exxon Mobil and Valero could not be reached for comment.

So even as we prepare to kick Sadaam's ass we are buying his oil
Do we think it's valuable?

From
"Scramble to carve up Iraqi oil reserves lies behind US diplomacy," The London Observer, October 6, 2002.

"At present, the French corporation TotalFinaElf has the lion's share in Iraq, with exclusivity to exploit the huge Majnoor and Bin Umar oil fields. The Majnoor field has an estimated potential of 30 billion barrels of oil, larger the proven reserves of the US. Also, the Italian oil company Eni and the Russian consortium LukOil have negotiated very large deals and concessions. LukOil signed a $20 billion US contract in 1997 to develop the West Qurna field, which is estimated to have a potential 15 billion barrels. Another Russian company, Zarubezhneft, recently negotiated a contract worth $90 billion US. The potential total value of the Iraqi contracts with foreign corporations is estimated at $1.1 trillion US. "

So yeah France, and old europe have vested interests, so do we.
The Great Game continues. There is an additiional wrinkle. There is a lot of manuvering in fiscal circles to control what currency-the dollar or the euro
will be the future currency of oil!
Recently Sadaam switched to the euro
pissiing off the US and the Uk.
We are being cornered by a new europe and a sly Sadaam.
Of course if we spent $100 billion (the projected cost of this war) on research on renewable energy (wind,solar) sources we could tell them to screw themselves

Maybe 1.1 trillion is exagerated but
gee I wonder what will happen to all those oil contracts when we are holding the spiggot

Maybe I'm wrong but killing 10,000 civilians and making a hornets nest of all those regional terorists 10x times worse is not a great game

[Tom]

First of all, let's all agree that oil companies are all scum and whores. They are the reason we do not have electric cars or other fuel sources today. When you combine the American Auto Industry and Oil companies, it is no good for anyone. The boards of directors of the Big Three all belong in jail for murder.
But to say we are going to take out Sodamn Insane for oil is nuts. There is no need to kill civillians, all they have to do is turn him over to us and we will not go in. What about the thousands of civilians HE killed?
Russia dosen't want us in there because all the material for many of his weapons can be traced back to the USSR, which, as it turns out, was the "Shemp" of nations will it lasted. We all know what France is. And Germany...never trust a nazi. Germany can never be trusted. Not in this lifetime. All these smiling little German faces talking peace! were begat by butchers and worse. It'll be a few more generations before I'm sure they get past those genes.
Nor should we ever forget who re-built Europe after saving its ass. Not Russia. Not France. Not Iraq. Not Mexico. If they don' t want to stand with us. let them stand without us. Without our aid, without our militarty protection, without our letting them come here and go to our schools. It is time to call in the favors.
Or learn to live without our help. Maybe Turkey will defend Europe
if Russia decides to expnad again. Or when China comes calling. Or when the stinking little camel humping terror-farmers they are hell bent to protect today attack them tomorrow. I will laugh my ass off when I see the Eiffel tower collapse in flames. Or the World Bank disappear into a mushroom cloud.
(BTW, the term Think Tank implies right wing...Left wing think tank would be oximoronical.)

[Dave Schwartz]

A little more reinforcement from MSNBC...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/877729.asp

[hcap]

Dave

My point is not that other countries aren't jockying for the spoils, but unfortinately we are as well.

from Sunday February 23, 2003
http://www.observer.co.uk/business/story/0%2C6903%2C900867%2C00.html

"Iraqi oil, TWO-THIRDS (my caps) of which is being snapped up by US companies, can only be paid for in euros."

from the MSNBC article

"And Russian outfits handle some 40 percent of Iraqi oil sales through the program."

US=2/3
Russia=40%
Who's figures are correct?
Enough is out there to wonder.

Do we believe the Heritage Foundation?
MSNBC, or any of the articles I listed?
There is a well thought out saying among journalists "Follow the money"!!

The great game continues

To believe we are wearing the white hat and everybody else the black, is
somewhat provincial.

Remember the backgrounds of members of this administration.
This at least brings up a host of conflict of interest issues.
Why won't Cheney make public his energy meetings, or at least let members of congress in on them?

Now I don't believe the motives of everone involved is nefarious, but the fact remains, their vision of the world may put us in a world of more danger
Also this "vision" was created well before recent hype about Iraq, and well before 9/11.

From
http://www.sundayherald.com/print27735

"The blueprint, uncovered by the Sunday Herald, for the creation of a 'global Pax Americana' was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice- president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), George W Bush's younger brother Jeb and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC)."

And

WILLIAM O. BEEMAN, PACIFIC NEWS SERVICE - " In 1997, during the Clinton
administration, a number of refugees from the administration of President
George Bush Sr., including Dick Cheney and his chief of staff, I. Lewis
Libby, got together to lobby then-Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich to
invade Iraq. This group was still smarting from the "unfinished" first Gulf
conflict. Calling themselves the "Project for the New American Century", the
group drew up the plans for a second Iraq war."

And according to the PNAC own policy staements it is not only oil, but a bit of "empire" as well.

WE, and the whole world are running out of usable hydrocarbons.
The oil multinationals are trying to prolong our dependency for short term profits.

The dollar vs euro struggle is a major concern in the great game. Read the observer article. Sadaam switched to the euro. He is certainly not innocent and is trying to play the western interests to his advantage.


The question is do we allow the multinationals to mess with Gov. policy.
The same question to France, Russia, and all the other players.

[hcap]

Three more articles about the dollar vs the euro and its effect on oil.

If you guys can get thru them, instead of watching the cable news blather, maybe you too can "follow the money"

I don't agree with all of these articles completely, but they at least should be read

The first and second are very detailed.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html#fn8

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html

The third less so

http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm

Last paragraph

"All of this is bad news for the US economy and the dollar. The fear for Washington will be that not only will the future price of oil not be right, but the currency might not be right either. Which perhaps helps explain why the US is increasingly turning to its second major tool for dominating world affairs: military force."

[Boris]

“To believe we are wearing the white hat and everybody else the black, is
somewhat provincial.”


Hcp,

I have no interest in changing your mind, but I can’t let this statement stand. It is not us, not us in small letters or US in caps, against everybody else. “We”, and I’ll use that word to describe those that are prepared to remove Saddam from power, consist of far more than the United States of America. It’s only logical for us, that’s US, to lead the fight as we were the ones attacked, and we are the ones responding to the attack. That response has led us to Iraq at this point, and will lead us to other places in the future. Some of those places will have oil, and some will not. However, they all will share a common threat to the safety of the American people. Perhaps you and I agree to this point, but I am not getting too hung up on whether or not someone will make money or not in the effort. I trust Colin Powell and do not think he would sign on to this for the sole purpose of enriching himself or those around him. I also have the belief that if at some point in the future an ugly underbelly of the war revealed itself, such as it was all about oil or equal silliness, he would be the first to sing and those involved will be held accountable. So for me, it’s Powell’s passion that makes me comfortable with the “greater good”. I don’t look to NATO to protect me. I don’t look to the EU socialists to protect me. Preventing the procreation of terrorism that will harm the American people is what it’s about and eliminating the part of the stream that Saddam controls is a very logical part of that battle.

[JustRalph]

We are making a statement by going in there. You can also be sure that we want a larger military presence in the area. If Bush gets his way, and a second term, he has a chance of turning Iraq into a half ass democracy without having to over-throw a king. Saddam is the least objectionable individual to over-throw. In ten or twenty years Iraq might be the place every Arab wants to move to. When a sniff of Democracy and freedom gets into the other Arab States this makes it tough on the "royal houses" and the rest to stay in power. It might take 20 years but it has been shown over and over again that freedom and democracy trump all. If we can get them going down that path in Iraq, it might spread to a larger part of the region. That can only be good for us in the future. It is a much larger scenario than any of these articles you quote are addressing. The increased Military presence and the show of force are all good for us in the "fight on terror". Terrorists are supported by governments. The Saudi's and others allowed Bin Laden to bring it over here to us. They are all cursing Bin Laden now. They will be less likely to indulge in wholesale support of terrorists etc if there are 100,000 U.S. troops whom are ready willing and two hours away! Don't whine about 100k troops staying over there either. We are already talking about moving troops around. You think it is unrelated to the Iraq operation? Germany and France will be singing a wail when all the money they get from our bases are moved out of their countries. The Pentagon is already getting ready to award contracts for moving the troops out of these countries. It has been leaked. Korea is holding the whole thing up. The contracts are all out the window if we move the troops in Korea. They will have to be re-negotiated. There are contract talks ongoing about re-building Iraq. This can also benefit our economy. It is all related.

Bush is trying to accomplish more than a few goals in this scenario. None have to do with oil. If he wanted a sweetheart deal on oil he would force Kuwait to give it to us. He could if he wanted. But he would hear just as much guff about it. So why not go this route and accomplish several different goals at once. There is a whole new generation of young people in Iraq and its neighbors that have yet to witness what can be accomplished by the U.S. military. Just getting a glimpse of what our military is capable of will be worth the price. We have to show our willingness to go wherever to protect our personal interests. France and Russia are protecting their personal interests. So are we. There are much larger issues involved. Those who don't see them are standing in the streets with signs against this action. It is not just a war, in fact it is not much of a war. It will be great training for everyone involved. But it makes a very big statement. We are willing to and capable of protecting our interests and furthering the cause of Democracy in whatever form in whatever region. It is the curse of and the responsibility of the greatest Country on the planet to maintain that stature or be relegated to an also ran. The also rans are complaining now. It also warns those who might bring more terrorism to our country. If they are tracked back to the country of Hooterville and there are 100k U.S. troops two hours from the Border of Hooterville, they may think twice. I guess it will take a terrorist act in Beverly Hills and the wholesale attack on the Hot Tubs of Brentwood to change some minds. At least on the left coast. There is a large Persian and Jewish population in Beverly Hills and Brentwood. They all choose to live here instead of their homeland. Because many of them would be killed if they went back home. They understand but choose to stay below the radar. If their new homes were blowing up they would be raising hell.

I will never forget the photographer who was interviewed while in the offices of a major magazine developing his pictures from the 9-11 attack, just a few hours after. He was wheezing and coughing and getting ready to go back out into the street to take more photos. He started to cry and stated " Bush better do something about this" I wonder if that guy is marching in the streets against this action in Iraq. Maybe he should have qualified his statement. Well he didn't. It is a much larger issue than most are considering. Broaden the scope a little. There is a bunch more going on than just tossing Saddam out on his ass and taking his oil.

[Tom]

I say, we win, we take the oil.
I say, Kuwait should be sending it in free to us.
If the Wacky-Iraqi Insane sets the field on fire, let them burn and posion the air over all the nations that support terror.
And choke the hell out of the human target, er, shields.
They are traitors and should be hung when they come back home.
That is, the ones the "daisy cutters" don't take care of.

[JustRalph]

good point Tom. I remember being a proud new owner of a volkswagon bug (I was 16) and pulling into the gas station and the sign read Cigarettes 35cents Gas: 35.9Cents a gallon. I saw gas here in Ca yesterday for $2.35.

[Derek2U]

what the F is the derivation of ur nic? U from CAnada? U a can?
u a leak? u a kiD? u a LEA ?? whatvr that is i 4got ..thnk Budha.
So tell me NOw plz, whats its derivative?

[Derek2U]

i gotta confession 2 say that first I opposed this WAR but now I
think its needed. (I did NOT say I WANT WAR.) if 1 usa boy gets
hurt I just cant stand that but my mom is 100% russian & my dad
is 100% irish & so cant u just see how I see stuff ?? (My moms
parents came from Moscow but my parents were born here..) ..
in other words (IOW) ... F ... from 9/11 on U know the words >>
OUR world has changed (and NoT 4 the better) .... and so, I say
we have some wiggle room but we musT plan on Plan Z ... take
out NK, Iran, Iraq ... and just do it at our readiness. my only
reservation is this: we seem to tell the world what when where
things will happen ... and on EverY news channel.... its kinda weird.

[Tom]

Trivia-how many millions of people are dead today while they waited the UN to act?
How many millions of peopl e are alive and FREE today because the US did not wait?
Are the people of Afgahnistan living better or worse today than
18 months ago?
How many years did the people of Afghanistan suffer and die under rule by evil murderers...while the UN did nothing?

Of all the nations who are suddenly so concerned about Iraq, how many of them:
1. Have ever done anything of any consequence for the worl?
2. Are run by dictators or other world-class evil people?
3. Can feed their own people?
4. Are safe-havens for terrorists?
5. Can even keep their own people in thier country?
Segway to......

Mexico says we have no right to violate Iraq's sovereignty. And we all know what deep respect Mexico has for other country's borders.

Side note: The Iraqi Army received suppliers for war today - civilian clothers nad white flags! This is true, per NBC news.
HeHeHe-they learned from the Gulf War.


Hey, to the world-you started it on 9-11-01.
Now WE will finish it.

[BillW]

Originally posted by Tom@HTR


Side note: The Iraqi Army received suppliers for war today - civilian clothers nad white flags! This is true, per NBC news.
HeHeHe-they learned from the Gulf War.



No doubt trendy French imports :D

[kenwoodall]

Of course it's about oil! Anyone remember the Gulf war? Iraq wanted Kuwait's oil!

[Dave Schwartz]

Okay, try this on for size...

Those of you that keep saying that it is all about the oil... Have you considered that we are going to spend gigantic amounts on this war and then more gigantic amounts on rebuilding Iraq afterwards?

How can anyone think this action is based upon a profit motive?

Just my humble opinion.


Dave Schwartz

[Amazin]

Dave asks"How can anyone think this action is based upon a profit motive?"

Shelock says here are some facts:
George W. Bush, 1978-84:
senior executive, Arbusto Energy/Bush Exploration, an
oil company; 1986-90: senior executive of the Harken
oil company. Dick Cheney, 1995-2000: chief executive of
the Halliburton oil company. Condoleezza Rice,
1991-2000: senior executive with the Chevron oil
company, which named an oil tanker after her. Hmmmm.

[Boris]

Originally posted by Amazin
Dave asks"How can anyone think this action is based upon a profit motive?"

Shelock says here are some facts:
George W. Bush, 1978-84:
senior executive, Arbusto Energy/Bush Exploration, an
oil company; 1986-90: senior executive of the Harken
oil company. Dick Cheney, 1995-2000: chief executive of
the Halliburton oil company. Condoleezza Rice,
1991-2000: senior executive with the Chevron oil
company, which named an oil tanker after her. Hmmmm.

Yeah, those career politicians are much more trustworthy.

Bill Clinton 1992-2000, not having sex
Al Gore 1988-1992, inventing the internet
Hillary Clinton 19whatever, not trading cattle futures

The whole bunch was unhireable outside of politics Shelock.

[Tom]

The flaw in your conspiracy theory is that we were in Kuwait, in all our force, and we/Canada put out the well fires, then left.
Why didn't this vile money hungray Bush-1 take that oil?

BECAUSE IT AIN'T ABOUT OIL!

[Amazin]

Times have changed.Wake up and smell the coffee.(or oil)

[Lefty]

Amazin, why don't you wake up and smell the truth. We have troops in Kuwaite right now. We could just take the oil, but we won't. When this war is over we won't control the oil fields, Iraq will. But it's nice that Sadaam has spokesmen over here.
Actually, have you noticed how much glass we use here? They make glass from sand don't they? Hey, there's lottsa sand in Iraq. Hey, maybe the war's about sand? Hey, forget the fact that a Iraqui scientist said Sadaam is working on Nukes. Forget the fact that Sadaam shoots at our planes in the agreed upon no-fly zone. Forget the fact that he's broken resolution after resolution. Forget the fact that the inspectors uncovered weapons he said he didn't have.
Let's just forget facts and say the war's about oil because, for some crazy reason it just makes us feel good. Ahhh!

[Tom]

What was that about?
Afghans?
Why would an evil empire of oilmen do what we did in Afghanistan and then spen all that money helping develope the country?
Q for U....Is Afghanistan better off now or before we liberated it?

*sniff, sniff*.....is that coffee I smell?
No, it is Billshot! And boy, is it thick.

(Not all the drones are in Bagdad)

[azibuck]

Derek, I have no idea what your incoherent ramblings meant, but I agree with all of it.

The Gulf War was about oil. Not "taking" it, but keeping it free-flowing to the West. This time, no, I don't think it's about oil.

Different topic, but common to just about every Off Topic thread:

You know what the difference between a Democrat and a Republican is? A Dem will hold his nose and vote Dem. He'll criticize Dems. He'll call Bill Clinton a predator and scumbag. And spineless. But he'll hold his nose and vote Dem because his ideals are more closely in line with Dem policy. (You can substitute Liberal for Democrat if it makes you feel better, I don't care).

A Republican thinks every Republican politician is a great man doing great things, regardless of anything. Join the CG to dodge Viet Nam, doesn't matter, he's a great man doing great things. Go AWOL for a year. Doesn't matter, that was then, he's now a great man doing great things. Republican Congressmen that let Special Interest groups WRITE the damn bills they present on the floor of Congress and it doesn't matter, they're great men doing great things. Dick Cheney; greedy oil man in politics for self-interest, or great man doing great things? Yep, great man doing great things.

Here's one I'll never figure out, I know Republicans that think George Bush is equal the man John McCain is. Baffling. If you had lost the election by one vote in Florida, you, Republicans, would have had only yourselves to blame. McCain is thrice the man Bush is, and if he had been the nominee, he would have won in a landslide. But your party leaders went with the safe "name" candidate. The handsomer, younger guy (doing great things).

If McCain was the nominee, I would have voted for him instead of Nader. (Remember, I live in NY, where my vote doesn't count).

[Amazin]

You guys need to drop that decaf crap.You need something stronger.Your points are mute. Let's put it this way.If it were your brains that were potentially going to be blown apart in the name of democracy(A joke in itself)as an innocent civilian,because a larger power than the U.S. was invading us,because they didn't like Bush what would you say.Yeah,come and kick our ass.You are perfectly justified. Well guess what.That may happen one day because retard boy is making the rules. Open season.Any country can go after any other country with no evidence or U.N. support.You guys will never learn until the aftermath.Remember Vietnam or McCarthyism.Now it's terrorism.It's all A-hole ism.A manufactured crisis for selfish gain.Don't start telling me about 9/11 and waving you flag again.When news came about Bush knowing about the threat to the world trade centers ,it was suddenly diverted into an Iraqi crisis.What a coincidence.Just like when they found out about Bill and Monica.Suddenly an Iraqi crisis.Time to blow the heads off a few thousand Iraquis to save our ass.YOU NEVER THINK.Those people are neither lesser or greater than me.That could be me.They're as real as me and feel the same pains as me.Ethnicity is secondary to being human.There are 2 kinds of people in this world .Those that care about all people and those that only care about being proud.

[Lefty]

Someone's behind the times. Pres. Nominees are no longer voted on in smoke-filled rooms of party leaders. We have what is called a primary. Now, in the last Repub primary the voters and not the party leaders decided Geo. W. should be the nominee. Just thght i'd get you up to date.
And this: If Cheney and others are so damn greedy why do they give up lucrative positions and stock to serve in politics?

[Lefty]

Amazin, your nonsense knows no bounds. To equate the situation in Iraq(a dictatership) to the U.S. democracy is nonsensical and appalling that a U.S. citizen said it. To say Bush knew about 9-11 is more utter nonsense. The people of Iraq are not free. Sadaam kills thousands of his own people. And you think it's wrong for us to want to free them and make ourselves a little safer in the process?
You defend the French, call people on this board racists for joking about them and then call the President of The United States a retard... What the hell is wrong with you?

[azibuck]

To answer your last question Lefty--for more lucrative positions and stock after they leave politics.

And your the one that needs to get with the times. Do you really think the Rep party wasn't behind the scenes for Bush? The movers and shakers in the party decide who they want to back. That person gets all the organ-i-zation and support, financial and otherwise. They encourage the other person(s) to drop out. That's how it works.

[Amazin]

Lefty

It's estimated that maybe 100,000 Iraqi civilians will be killed(possibly more) if the U.S. invades Iraq.Countless more will be maimed,homeless and suffer radiation poisining as U.S. soldiers did in the Gulf war.Cancer rates will be high.In light of this you would call this liberation.How do you pat someone on the back who is dead, maimed or the relative of a dead or maimed person and say"how do you like your new found freedom".That's retarded.Which brings me to the next point.You keep asking me how I can call the pres names and call French haters racist.I haven't really felt the need to explain that since it should be self evident.But since this is politics 101,I'll humor you.Racism involves the systematic humiliation of a group of people of a certain Ethnicity.Calling an individual like Bush a moron is not racism.I am not talking about a group of people nor his Ethnicity.Man your thick.

[hcap]

Lefty

I tried to lay out a very comprehensive
alternative point of view in thread "It is Not just oil"

Do you know THE PNAC- the Project for the New American Century?

Do you recognize the possibility that this war was planned well before 9/11 and just needed a proper time slot to play before the American people?

As Andrew Card said a "new product" to be launched at the correct public relations moment?

Iraq is only ONE of many with "weapons of mass destruction". In fact, if we were really to go after everyone in the world who poses the threat of passing weapons to terrorists, we will in fact have as Cheney says basically an endless war.

And if you check out the PNAC-that's exactly what we are in for!!

Also are you aware that the "new" Russia, is probably one of the most corrupt nations on the face of this earth, partially controlled by a Russian "MAFIA", and leaks WPMD like a sieve.
Much much more WPMD than Iraq.
Remember their huge arsenal? Think about how few rubles their weapons people are earning now, and combine that with a powerful criminal mafia.
Sounds like a James Bond Movie.
But James is getting a little grey.

I think we should invade.

[Lefty]

AZBuck, MsCaine had just as much a chance to secure the nomination in the primary as did Bush. In fact, he had the better chance cause the liberal media loved him. The people thght Bush was the better candidate.

Amazin, by your way of thinking no one in this whole wide world would be free cause there might be casualties. I'm sure glad our foreathers and most of the leaders in the 40's didn't think like you. Now i'm done, cause you're the one that's thick and can't be reached. Just live in your fantasy world that if we just leave everyone alone and have happy thghts that everyone will leave us in peace. Pretend 9-11 never happened and Sadaam is just making weapons in case aliens attack him. Think the pure and innocent thghts of the newborn babe.

[Lefty]

Hcap, it just doesn't end with you guys. You are so against Bush and this country that I find it unbelievable that you're really an american. But you are because in Iraq, the country you so adamntly defend, sadaam would have you hacked to death.
Iraq is not the only country with weapons, yes that's true. We are going after them,(How many damn times does it have to be said ?)because we had a little dust-up with them called the Gulf War because they invaded Kuwaite. It was in all the papers. Now Sadaam has violated all the agreements.
Now go and say "I hate Bush" America is wrong" as many times as you want. We now have people in office who have sworn to defend this country and despite you and the other misinformed, will do so. Amen.

[Amazin]

Lefty

If it was your ass on the line,you wouldn't talk so proud.I'd bet on that big time.

[Lefty]

Amazin, WRONG!

[azibuck]

This is why there is no "debating" with you Lefty, only useless back and forth:

You are so against Bush and this country that I find it unbelievable that you're really an american. But you are because in Iraq, the country you so adamntly defend, sadaam would have you hacked to death.

You don't read what other people write. You just assume you know what other people think.

In a thread from weeks ago, you asked, "what I want to know is why Liberals hate America." In debating rules, that's called the fallacy of begging the question, and it's typical of your style. It's like me asking you, "do you still beat your wife?"

Forget it.

[Lefty]

You're right; it's useless debating with you guys. You don't want people to have freedom cause someone might be hurt. All our asses ARE on the line, yet you would do nothing. Your debating rule does not work either. If I answered yes or no do I still beat my wife i'm screwed both ways. I ask why you hate Bush or America or both and it does not require yes or no. Just an honest answer. You prob hate Bush for some misguided reason, and not America. But your arguments as to why why we should not stop a tyrant who has broken every agreement he made and is busy making weapons does not make sense to me.
As to my "style" guess I picked it up from the libs.

[hcap]

Lefty

This war is too serious and world changing to NOT deal with the issues.
Did you at least read what I posted in the other post??

Deal with the issues and please don't insult anyone who is against the war.

Did you see the Veterans For Common Sense letter?
1,000 war veterans sent a letter to Bush

"Mr. President, we are patriotic citizens and veterans who respect the office of the President and the ethics and values binding us together as Americans.

As such, we feel duty-bound to share with you our serious concerns regarding issues of national security, the appropriate use of our military strength, and the health and welfare of our active duty soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. Those of us who are veterans of the 1991 Gulf War can offer particular insight into the ongoing troubles in the Middle East, and the likely consequences of another war in that volatile region.”

Are they unpatriotic un-american liberals too?
Can't anyone disagree.

Remember the POSSIBLE, (documented) motivations of the PNAC
Please let's talk about facts, with facts.

Governments throughout history have not always told the truth-much is discovered AFTER the spun truth.

The media is not to be taken at face value---------

"There is no such thing, at this date of the world’s history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it.

“There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.

“If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.

“The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread.

“You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press.

“We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men".

“We are intellectual prostitutes.”

— John Swinton
New York Times editor
in a speech before the New York Press Club
1953

Maybe it bit extreme, but this way back in '53. There are more sources who doudt the validity of the media by the way.

At least there is the internet. The same source you could use to SUPPORT your case. Dig for them don't spout cliches

If you make your case solely by what you see on FOX news, your conclusions are skewed (screwed?)

Garbage in garbage out.

[azibuck]

Is it considered name-calling if I call you illiterate? Or is that more of a judgment based on observation?

The fallacy of begging the question has nothing to do with yes or no. You ask me why I hate America, or why do I hate Bush? I can't answer, because I don't hate America or Bush.

[Boris]

Originally posted by Netcapperazibuck
Is it considered name-calling if I call you illiterate?

Nah, I'm pretty sure that's OK Net. Our PC cop here doesn't mind if you poke fun at retards, and since most of them don't read, you should be "PC safe". Just don't make fun of the French or Amazin will go postal and call you a racist.

[Amazin]

Lefty quote:"But your arguments as to why why we should not stop a tyrant who has broken every agreement he made and is busy making weapons does not make sense to me."

Sounds like your talking about Bush.Gee Lefty,glad you see it my way now.Success at last.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
Lefty quote:"But your arguments as to why why we should not stop a tyrant who has broken every agreement he made and is busy making weapons does not make sense to me."

Sounds like your talking about Bush.Gee Lefty,glad you see it my way now.Success at last.

Just When I think I have read the stupidest post ever, you go and post again.
To even think that GWB has ever done anything nearly as atrotiously evil and inhumane as Sodamn Insane is absolute stupidity. You talk about the 100,000 predicted Iraqi deaths if we go in, well, that is entirely possible - when tha madman lets loose with his poisongas (AGAIN) and other unthinkable weaposn, etc, and when he blows up the damsn and when his own soldiers (those that don't drop their guns and run like they did last time) dress up in American look-alike uniforms and start killing thier own for the sake of CNN, who will be right their acting as if it were news.
What about an answer to my questions-why didn't we take the oil from Kuwait last time we were there? Is Afghanistan better off or worse off since we drove out the Taliban? How many millions of people have died in ethnic cleansign in the last 10 years while the UN sat back and id nothing about it? how many are alive today because the US did do something about it, and get its own heros killed by those rat-bastard islamic cockroaches who do nothing but prey on innocent people over there?
Racist comment - YOU BET IT IS. And damn proud of it!
Thank GOD there enough people inthis world who are not going to sit back and ignore jihad - like GWB.....we are going to disarm Hussein and there is not thing one your kind or the European cowards are going to do stop it. And I hope Sean Penn and MArtin Sheen are sitting there as human shields when the crap goes down. Believe, me, I PRAY it.

[JustRalph]

The human shields decided to come home today. They changed their mind when Iraq tried to tell them to set up in an area that might actually get bombed. Some shields huh?:cool:

[Lefty]

AZ, call me anything. you're not the first, and I expect it, cause that's what liberals do. For further analysis of liberal mind read amazin's last post.
Go to www.rushlimbaugh.com for proof that the terrorists are training in Iraq.
10,000 inspectors. Sure, and if that doesn't work we'll send 100,000.