Chinese gymnast underage

[46zilzal]

SI reporting today that the women's gymnastic champ is only 13.

Minimum age to compete; 16

[bigmack]

Kramden was more convincing than this gymnast.

iS9AvH_CJaQ

[equicom]

I don't think there has been any proof yet to back up the claim.

[bigmack]

I don't think there has been any proof yet to back up the claim.
Yeah, given their record the world should give them the benefit of doubt. :lol:

According to their passports, which determine Olympic eligibility, He Kexin, Jiang Yuyuan and Yang Yilin are all 16. But Chinese online records and local newspaper articles have presented different information, raising questions about these three gynmasts' true ages. A 2006 biography from the local sports bureau where He was registered gave her date of birth as January 1, 1994, which would make her 14. A story earlier this year in the China Daily, the country's largest English-language newspaper, also reported that she is 14 years old. Another local-level competition roll had the date of birth of Jiang, who is only 32 kg (70.5 lbs.), as October 1, 1993, making her also 14. And from 2004-2006, the biographical data for Yang on the State General Administration of Sport's website listed her date of birth as August 26, 1993, one year later than what Beijing Olympic records show.

[equicom]

I don't even care, or know why anybody does. There's so much else going on in the world and they're making such a fuss over a tiny golden trinket.

In any case, for a 13yo to beat older kids at sport is somehting that would be admired in any other situation.

[cmoore]

I don't even care, or know why anybody does. There's so much else going on in the world and they're making such a fuss over a tiny golden trinket.

In any case, for a 13yo to beat older kids at sport is somehting that would be admired in any other situation.

So your saying it's alright for the chinese to cheat..They knew the rules going in.

[equicom]

No it is not OK for them to cheat, but it doesn't bother me if they do. There is no satisfaction in winning a medal that you don't deserve, so it will always bother them that they cheated to get it (if they cheated, which I am not sure I believe at this stage until more evidence that is not from "online" sources is presented).

[bigmack]

In any case, for a 13yo to beat older kids at sport is somehting that would be admired in any other situation.
Judging by your posts, you have a tendency to overthink a variety of subjects. While you're doing that might I remind you China is a closed system where they'll print any document they want with any birth date they wish. There was a previous gymnast who has admitted she was 14 in the last Olympics. Deductive reasoning can work you know.

Being 13 might be a disadvantage in most sports but womens gymnastics is not one of them, it's a clear advantage.

It may not matter to you that they cheat but it might to the many girls who have trained a boatload of hours everyday for many years.

[equicom]

Being 13 might be a disadvantage in most sports but womens gymnastics is not one of them, it's a clear advantage.

Why would having travelled around the Sun a specific number of times be more important than tangible factors directly relating to natural ability (genetic factors, physical attributes, intelligence, personality) or enhanced ability (via training or drugs)?

[bigmack]

Why would having travelled around the Sun a specific number of times be more important than tangible factors
It's a nutty thing. The more times a person "travels around the Sun" they usually become bigger, heavier and less flexible. 14 is a very pliable age, both physically & mentally.

Minimum of 16 helps to create an even playing field.

[Marshall Bennett]

In a nation who's government has such little concern for human values , why is this any surprise at all ?

[equicom]

Yeah but these girls do an amazing amount of flexibility training. They are still very flexible even when they are much older, unless they discontinue with the training.

I can understand the logic behind the theory, but I still think individual attributes would be more important than biological age (some children may naturally mature less rapidly or more rapidly than others, for example).

[ryesteve]

Yeah but these girls do an amazing amount of flexibility training. They are still very flexible even when they are much older, unless they discontinue with the training.

I can understand the logic behind the theory, but I still think individual attributes would be more important than biological age (some children may naturally mature less rapidly or more rapidly than others, for example).
Then how come you can be quite certain that come 2012, China will show up with a brand new crop of 12 year olds, rather than this bunch with their outstanding "individual attributes" plus 4 more years of experience?

[Shenanigans]

SI reporting today that the women's gymnastic champ is only 13.

Minimum age to compete; 16


You of all people should be happy for these little girls. At least they didn't get stuck in a sweat shop earning 5 cents a day making the shoes you wear on your feet. Instead, their government saw a little talent, put them into training and now they get to shine for their families and possibly get a chance to attend a college - as long as they prove a talent for it.

[ryesteve]

now they get to shine for their familiesBut what about the 16 and 17 year olds who lost the legitimate opportunity to "shine for their families" because it was decided that winning was more important than abiding by the rules?

[Valuist]

The irony is this.....isn't the U.S. coach that Karoli guy? The guy who coached a 14 YO Nadia Comaneche (sp?) to those perfect 10 scores in 1976? Without her, I doubt he would've become famous and likely wouldn't have become the U.S. coach. I'm not saying the Chinese should cheat, but after Marion Jones and all the other steroid users, maybe we shouldn't be throwing stones.

[bigmack]

after Marion Jones and all the other steroid users, maybe we shouldn't be throwing stones.
Systemic deceit by a country is a tad different than a errant athlete doping up, no?

[Valuist]

Systemic deceit by a country is a tad different than a errant athlete doping up, no?

Athlete? As in singular? As in Marion Jones was the only cheater? You've GOT to be kidding.

[bigmack]

Athlete? As in singular? As in Marion Jones was the only cheater? You've GOT to be kidding.
If I pluralized athlete does that make things better for you? OK... athletes.

Better now?

[JustRalph]

what about the Americans who are "legal" and worked their asses off for ten years to get in the competition and were defeated by the cheater?

That is the problem............not how many times they traveled around the sun. :bang:

[Valuist]

If I pluralized athlete does that make things better for you? OK... athletes.

Better now?

So basically, if we cheat, its ok......but God help anyone else who does? Nobody is saying that it was ok for the Chinese to cheat but it smacks of being awfully self serving for us to bitch and moan, when one considers the alleged drug use of athletes like Jones, Montgomery, Armstrong, and the guy who recently won the Tour de France and had it taken away.

I don't know enough about gymnastics to judge whether or not a team would have an advantage by having younger competitors. In any other sport I can think of, it would be a disadvantage for a 13 YO to compete against older rivals. Is this worse than taking steroids? I would doubt it, but its an apples and oranges argument that likely can't be settled.

[Pace Cap'n]

Pubescence is the Achilles heel of many a female gymnast.

[Shenanigans]

But what about the 16 and 17 year olds who lost the legitimate opportunity to "shine for their families" because it was decided that winning was more important than abiding by the rules?

Ummmmm.... I was being a tad sarcastic for the sake of Zil. Sorry you took it to heart.

[chickenhead]

So basically, if we cheat, its ok......but God help anyone else who does? Nobody is saying that it was ok for the Chinese to cheat but it smacks of being awfully self serving for us to bitch and moan, when one considers the alleged drug use of athletes like Jones, Montgomery, Armstrong, and the guy who recently won the Tour de France and had it taken away.

Who said it is ok for Americans to cheat? The only uproar amongst Americans when Americans get caught cheating is with the cheaters, no one makes a stink that they get punished. Secondly, the Olympic drug testing guys catch scores of cheaters from scores of countries every time around, there is nothing particularly special about American athletes. We just don't hear much about other countries athletes getting caught, because we don't particularly care about them, or the minor sports (in our eyes) they are generally getting caught cheating at.

Athlete cheats. Athlete gets caught. Athlete gets punished. That's how the Olympics are supposed to work. In this case, the team officials and apparently the country's officials are being fraudulent to break to rules. That's pretty ugly.

But I guess that's what you;re arguing for in this case?

Team cheats. Team Gets caught. Nobody gets punished, because it's China. Yeah, that makes sense.

[bigmack]

In this case, the team officials and apparently the country's officials are being fraudulent to break to rules. That's pretty ugly.

But I guess that's what you;re arguing for in this case?

Team cheats. Team Gets caught. Nobody gets punished, because it's China. Yeah, that makes sense.
I was gonna say that same schpeel Chickeybaby. Pins & needles.

[equicom]

Maybe the answer is to not have a minimum age. The minimum age thing is a form of "age discrimination" anyway.

[Valuist]

Who said it is ok for Americans to cheat? The only uproar amongst Americans when Americans get caught cheating is with the cheaters, no one makes a stink that they get punished. Secondly, the Olympic drug testing guys catch scores of cheaters from scores of countries every time around, there is nothing particularly special about American athletes. We just don't hear much about other countries athletes getting caught, because we don't particularly care about them, or the minor sports (in our eyes) they are generally getting caught cheating at.

Athlete cheats. Athlete gets caught. Athlete gets punished. That's how the Olympics are supposed to work. In this case, the team officials and apparently the country's officials are being fraudulent to break to rules. That's pretty ugly.

But I guess that's what you;re arguing for in this case?

Team cheats. Team Gets caught. Nobody gets punished, because it's China. Yeah, that makes sense.

No, that's not what I'm arguing for. I don't have a beef w/the Olympic committee, just those Americans who are complaining. Let the committee do its job but we as a people should keep our mouths shut because we have been very far from clean. Just comes across as hypocritical.

[Marshall Bennett]

Maybe the answer is to not have a minimum age. The minimum age thing is a form of "age discrimination" anyway.
IMO young children shouldn't be subjected to the pressure of competing on a stage as great as the olympics . Allow their minds to mature , then let them decide . I don't beleive a 12 or 13 year old has the ability to make that decision . Someone obviously is making that decision for them .

[equicom]

I agree, but what if they want to compete? Should we really stop somebody doing something they want to do? I mean, if everyone is correct about the Chinese using underage competitors, and they are good enough to win gold, then obviously it is not too demanding for those particular kids.

The danger would be the "childrens paegent parents living vicariously through their kids" syndrome... then you have parents pushing their kids very hard to do something they don't want to do, but I don't think that would cause any problems at the Olympic level because I don't believe you can inspire a kid who doesn't really want to compete to have that sort of ability where they would even qualify for the Olympics.

If kids don't want to do something, it will show up in their performance. No point in flogging a dead horse, as they say.

[Greyfox]

It seems to me that the age rules are there with a purpose.
They have been debated by International Committees and established for the games.

You could take the view that an age rule is discrimination. You could say any age is elligible. The supreme ridiculous of that is there may be some precocious seven year old somewhere who is the world's greatest gymnast. She may only be 4 feet tall, flexible as a rubber band, and strong enough to throw her 65 pound body over various tumbling apparati and so on. In doing so she appears "cute" and the judges give her high marks. Unfortunately, as she ages her body becomes less flexible, the ratio of her muscles to bones changes, and she can't do what she once did. But the goal isn't to find the world's greatest gymnast at any age. It is to find the greatest gymnast over a particular age. That age has been delineated by a Rules Committee.

The idea of the Olympics is to find the World's Greatest performers, within the rules.

If the rules are wrong, they can be changed by committees. In the meanwhile, any individual or team not operating within the current rules should be stripped of their medals.

[equicom]

Agreed, provided that there is proof. And by proof, actual documented proof, not just comments that somebody some time ago made some claim (by word of mouth) but real documents.

Even though documents can be forged, word-of-mouth is far less credible and should not be used as evidence. She may have lied and said she was younger, as of course many females tend to do! :)

[chickenhead]

Agreed, provided that there is proof. And by proof, actual documented proof, not just comments that somebody some time ago made some claim (by word of mouth) but real documents.

Even though documents can be forged, word-of-mouth is far less credible and should not be used as evidence. She may have lied and said she was younger, as of course many females tend to do! :)

Their passports say they're of age, there isn't going to be any proof of anything. There won't be when the gov't is falsifying documents. It's kind of the big lie theory, when the gov't itself is lying, there really is no way to refute it.

But it's also not based on word of mouth at all...all her preceding documents had her as 14, and they were all apparently consistent. It wasn't until this year, with a newly issued passport, that she magically became 16, and old enough to compete.

They've had athletes admit to this in the past, it's not like it is out of the ordinary. What really makes it a little different than say a doping case, is the gov't itself is cheating.

[bigmack]

No, that's not what I'm arguing for. I don't have a beef w/the Olympic committee, just those Americans who are complaining. Let the committee do its job but we as a people should keep our mouths shut because we have been very far from clean. Just comes across as hypocritical.
Let's go over this one last time. In the past, American athleteS have been caught doping. Can we assume the US Government didn't play a part in their doping? Probably.

The Chinese gymnasts have been shown to have varying birth dates and conveniently show up with "just in the nick of time" passports. Can we assume the Chinese Government played a part in this crookedness? Probably.

You're sitting in a world where a person has no right to condemn the people involved in the Watergate break-in because they stole a candy bar as a kid. The accusation of hypocrisy can only go so far before those saying everyone is hypocritical simply end up looking silly.

[equicom]

But here's the thing... what's the motivation to cheat?

I can understand the athletes themselves might cheat, for personal gain. But what is the point of a national government cheating to get a few little worthless trinkets (relative to the wealth of a government) that are actually going to be the property of the athletes anyway.

Gold medals may have a huge value to an athlete, but to a government they have little value other than perhaps a slight increase in morale.

Being caught cheating, or even being suspected of it, would have the opposite effect, so why would they (anyone, including USA or China) bother cheating?

[Tom]

Wow,what planet do you live on? Playfaireon?:rolleyes:

The Olympics are filled with communist nations sponsoring cheating - it's called propaganda and the commies live off of it. China cheat? If you told me no, would not believe it. The same as Russia and the Eastern block and their numerous cheaters for Mother Russia.

[equicom]

The question is what is the motivation?

Propaganda doesn't fit that, because firstly winning a medal in the Olympics is totally meaningless (except to the athletes) and if you cheat there are no bragging rights.

[Tom]

You know nothing on this subject...and you seem so proud of it.
Ignorance is not a badge, dude. Quit polishing yours.:D

[chickenhead]

The question is what is the motivation?

Propaganda doesn't fit that, because firstly winning a medal in the Olympics is totally meaningless (except to the athletes) and if you cheat there are no bragging rights.

That argument is best taken up with them...again, a lot of these places have been caught doing this before. North Korea was banned from Int'l competition for 3 years for repeatedly lying about the age of their gymnasts. It's not like this is some conspiracy theory. And again, a chinese gymnast from the 2000 Olympics admitted she was only 14, but had some "help" in getting in.

All of these sports programs are funded by the gov't, it costs China about $7 million per gold medal. So maybe ask that question instead, why does a relatively poor nation (per capita) spend tens, growing to hundreds, of millions of dollars to win these medals that are meaningless? Well, they do, so regardless of what you might think, they are important to them.

"Competitive sport is war without gunfire." That's how Fan Hong, a Chinese national swimmer and later academic, described Beijing's attitude toward gold medals.

National pride does wonders to keep the peeps out of the streets.

[rastajenk]

Equicom must have just been born yesterday on a turnip truck, to mangle some metaphors. Go read about the '36 Olies in Berlin, and report back about how winning medals is meaningless to governments. No Godwin's Law here, I didn't mention Hitler and Nazis....crap, I just did. :cool:

[OTM Al]

Wow, complaints about cheating at the Olympics. Seems to me such things have been happening for a very long time now in several sports and its not restricted to any country. How's US Track and Field been doing since BALCO got nailed? Certainly some countries' governments and OCs are more active than others in assisting these things to happen, but looking the other way to me is just as unethical. The Olympics is what it is, but don't make the mistake that it is somehow pure. Its just as pure as any other sporting event in this world.

[RaceBookJoe]

Wow, complaints about cheating at the Olympics. Seems to me such things have been happening for a very long time now in several sports and its not restricted to any country. How's US Track and Field been doing since BALCO got nailed? Certainly some countries' governments and OCs are more active than others in assisting these things to happen, but looking the other way to me is just as unethical. The Olympics is what it is, but don't make the mistake that it is somehow pure. Its just as pure as any other sporting event in this world.

The steroids must finally be kicking in, the USA swept the 400M hurdles and they picked up 2 more medals also (silver and gold).

[equicom]

You know nothing on this subject...and you seem so proud of it.
Ignorance is not a badge, dude. Quit polishing yours.:D

How do you dare to make these comments? Any time anyone asks you to back up one of your assertions, you back down instead. Or you make some ridiculous comment like that one that doesn't really mean anything.

You just dish out pointless insults without answering the questions. You think that this is an appropriate defense to hide your own ignorance. But it only fools the stupid. Any intelligent person reading these posts will quickly see through this strategy.

For you to presume that you know anything about me, let alone how much I know about a subject is pathetic. Not only that, but you're exceptionally ill-mannered and obnoxious.

Perhaps, one day, instead of just mindlessly attacking others, you will actually answer a request for proof of your claims with proof, or at least be man enough to step up and confess that you don't know the answer or that you can't find the proof.

[Tom]

I only have your posts to go by, so my logical conclusion is you know squat about the topic. Post something correct and I would have something to work with.

East Germany, USSR, repeated cheaters in the Olympics. Chin, had a "pretty girl" lip synch the national anthem becasue the real singer was not so cute.
you said there was no reason for countries to cheat. You are wrong. Been going on a long time. They are not serving dog or cat so as try to make the world think they are civilized people and not what they really are.

The rest of your post is delusional. You can't handle the truth. Go spank your kangaroo.

[equicom]

Did I ONCE claim that nobody cheated? Did I ONCE mention East Germany or the USSR?

[rastajenk]

Well, you did post this: "Gold medals may have a huge value to an athlete, but to a government they have little value other than perhaps a slight increase in morale."

Gold medals meant a great deal to East Germany and the U S S R. More than just a bump in "morale."

[equicom]

I did some research...

There are 813 documented cases of doping having been detected since testing began, and of these:

146 were athletes from the USA (17.95%)
43 were athletes from all communist countries
combined (5.28%)

Further facts and figures:

Athletes stripped of Olympic medals for any reason (not including medals that were subsequently returned) since 1968:


7 = USA & Bulgaria
----------
4 = Hungary
----------
3 = Sweden
----------
2 = Spain, North Korea, & Germany
----------
1 = Mongolia, Holland, Poland, Finland, Canada, Armenia, Romania, UK, Ireland, Greece, Ukraine

So, the USA leads the field on both doping and medals stripped for any reason. Neither the USSR, China, Vietnam or Russia have had any medals stripped at any time (that could change if this latest scandal proves substantiated). North Korea has had 2 medals stripped, but that is still 5 less than the USA and Bulgaria.

This does not suggest that the countries mentioned did not cheat, or that they do not cheat now, but that it has not so far resulted in them winning anything. Note especially the abscence from the list of East Germany and the USSR (plus Russia, and most of the other former soviet states). The only ones on the list that are from that general region are Ukraine, Bulgaria, and Hungary.

[DRIVEWAY]

How much of this doping is individual based vs country based? Do you think any of these countries encourages doping?

[chickenhead]

Note especially the abscence from the list of East Germany and the USSR (plus Russia, and most of the other former soviet states).

The first attempt at steroid testing was in 1982, they improved it enough to start catching people around 1989, right around the time the wall came down.

Again, it isn't a conspiracy theory, the German government tried and convicted several coaches and doctors on criminal charges, for what they did.


In the 1970's, East Germany's sports machine became so powerful that its female swimmers won 11 of 13 gold medals at both the 1976 and 1980 Olympics. The country of 17 million challenged the United States and the Soviet Union for Olympic domination. Since 1993 German authorities have collected evidence of a widespread state-run program that gave athletes, some beginning as young as 10, daily doses of performance-enhancing steroids.

East Germany began experimenting with doping in the 1960's. Its use was widespread from the early 1970's until the mid-1980's, when drug testing methods improved. One of the most prominent archive researchers says that even in 1989, close to 1,000 athletes were still taking steroids. Promising swimmers, skaters, rowers, shot-putters, weight lifters and other athletes, especially girls, were given daily tablets they were told were vitamins, although certainly many knew the truth.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE1DA1731F930A35751C1A9679582 60&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04E1DB1330F934A35752C0A96E9582 60

[chickenhead]

it's also fairly common for doping suspensions to occur at a time other than right at the Olympics.

Here are :5: Russians this year that were suspended for doping a week before the Olympics began.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/sports/olympics/01doping.html

I'm not suggesting the Russian run any kind of East German doping factory, just that they're no different than anyone else, their athletes try to cheat also.

In the same article, you'll notice the :11: Greek weightlifters also banned from the Olympics this year for doping.

And, note of two Americans who were guilty of doping in 1998.

[ghostyapper]

Maybe the answer is to not have a minimum age. The minimum age thing is a form of "age discrimination" anyway.

Ridiculous. Should we let adults into little league games so there is no "age discrimination"?

People who know alot more about the sport than you made that the minimum age for a reason.

[equicom]

The first attempt at steroid testing was in 1982, they improved it enough to start catching people around 1989, right around the time the wall came down.


You quoted my line about the absence of USSR and East Germany from the list, but actually I was not referring to the doping list, which does include those countries, but to the "medals awarded and then stripped" list.

My post actually was 2 parts, the first looking at the overall doping scene, and then a second list that looks at which countries have lost medals as a result of being accused of cheating.

[equicom]

Ridiculous. Should we let adults into little league games so there is no "age discrimination"?


No, because there is a massive difference there. Because there are games available for older people to compete in other than little league games. But in the case of the Olympics, there is not a competition available in that sport to people over the age of 16.

Also, I am speaking from experience. I have previously been discriminated against in the sport of gymnastics (obviously not at Olympic level :) ).

[Greyfox]

A very talented web researcher has documented evidence that Chinese Gymnast

He Kexin's birthday as 01-01-1994 making her only 14 and not elligible for the

Olympics.

His research is presented at:


http://strydehax.blogspot.com/

The Olympic Committee should strip China of Gold in Team Gymnastics.

[Greyfox]

All Sports need age limits. Consider:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/NovaSk/MJ2Za9Vhmclok4zkVRIyx0MC_400.jpg.

[equicom]

A very talented web researcher has documented evidence that Chinese Gymnast He Kexin's birthday as 01-01-1994 making her only 14 and not elligible for the Olympics.

I do note the use of the words "web researcher". I doubt that a court of law would accept information discovered on the Internet as the sole source of information to judge a case.

The only people who would truly know the correct age of a person would be the parents or possibly any hospital staff who were present at the birth of the child (although I would guess the majority of births in China probably do not take place in the presence of medical personnel).

Perhaps there is some sort of test that can identify the true age of a person based on the rate of cell growth and death, or whatever. You can get the age of a horse and a tree just by examining them physically, so why not a human?

[46zilzal]

IOC announced an investigation today into their ages......

[RaceBookJoe]

Is it only gymnasts that have to be 16, or is it every athelete? i ask because one of the chinese female divers is only 15. rbj

[Greyfox]

Is it only gymnasts that have to be 16, or is it every athelete? i ask because one of the chinese female divers is only 15. rbj

The age limits for gymnasts and diving differ. They are completely different sports. The International Sports Associations representing them advise the I.O.C. as to what age limits are set.

[RaceBookJoe]

The age limits for gymnasts and diving differ. They are completely different sports. The International Sports Associations representing them advise the I.O.C. as to what age limits are set.

Thank you Greyfox. rbj

[chickenhead]

My post actually was 2 parts, the first looking at the overall doping scene, and then a second list that looks at which countries have lost medals as a result of being accused of cheating.

When the country itself admits to systemic cheating on a massive scale, that involved thousands of athletes, and dozens of Olympic medalists, your list(s), both of them, are meaningless. This is obvious.

[equicom]

That statement, Mr Chickenhead, was ridiculous. How on Earth do you draw the conclusion that fact-based lists are meaningless? Facts are facts, and while you can claim that they do not have relevance to the debate, you cannot legitimately claim that they are meangingless.

And more to the point, your statement was meaningless. It contributed nothing constructive to this discussion.

[bigmack]

Read in the Journal, some hacker from DC climbed into the bowels of a state-run Chinese Web server and found documentation that kid is 14.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121945218259865481.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Tom]

How old was the hacker? :rolleyes: