California plastic bag tax debate

[so.cal.fan]

Looks like they are going to do away with plastic grocery bags soon.
Being a "global warming agnostic" I can see arguments from both sides.
A man on a local forum posted this, it makes sense:
<This is simply a way for the government to grab more revenue, pure and simple. Am I wrong? I don’t think so. Here’s how I’ll prove it: just have the legislature approve a .25 redemption amount if you return the plastic bags to a recycling center, making it revenue neutral! Problem solved. Consumers will get their money back if they’ve paid the tax when getting groceries, etc. A simple solution. But I guarantee you the state and city would run away from such an idea, stating it’s too unwieldly, etc. Why? Because the whole idea is not “saving the planet”, it’s “increasing revenue”. And as far as that revenue is concerned, you can bet it would be used as judiciously as the “lottery” money is and was. Remember, all the revenue was going for schools…NOT! Always follow the money and you’ll find out who benefits — in this case it’s a tax, wrapped inside the platitude of eco-correctness. Tell ‘em no!!!>


Any opinions here?

[DJofSD]

All very good points.

I am neither for or against the banning of plastic bags. However, I am some what curious about the amount of oil and energy it takes to produce these bags and how that compares to the classic brown paper bags. From an ecological perspective, I know that paper bags take much longer to break down in the land fill than you'd think. Plastic, well, that's more or less forever. Then there's the question of recycling, again, paper v. plastic, what are the costs of the entire recycling process.

I shop at Von's most of the time. They have for the last so-many months offered canvas bags for your viddles. I've not purchased any mainly b/c I would very likely forget to bring them when I go shopping. If I could get into the habit of emptying the contents then immediately putting them back into the vehicle, I might be able to avoid using the plastic bags.

As to the government involvement, they will screw it up, some way, some how, I can guarentee it. Especially the California state governmnet -- just look at energy deregulation. If the governmental entities can be kept out of the fray then the better off it will be.

[46zilzal]

There has been a movement on here, for over three years now, for people to bring their own fabric bags for reuse. I am glad to see it has really caught on and plastic bag use is really down.

[Marshall Bennett]

Oh my , what will I use as a trash liner in the can ? :confused:

[boxcar]

I keep telling everyone: The primary goal of the environmental religion is just a way to get people to make their [tax] "contributions" to Big Gov. It's all about a big money grab. Think of it as something analogous to "buying indulgences" for sins committed against the ol' goddess Mother Earth . :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

yes it has NOTHING to do with the fact they don't break down and huge toxic collections of them have been found in the ocean.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/19/SS6JS8RH0.DTL

The enormous stew of trash - which consists of 80 percent plastics and weighs some 3.5 million tons, say oceanographers - floats where few people ever travel, in a no-man's land between San Francisco and Hawaii.

Marcus Eriksen, director of research and education at the Algalita Marine Research Foundation in Long Beach, said his group has been monitoring the Garbage Patch for 10 years.

[boxcar]

yes it has NOTHING to do with the fact they don't break down and huge toxic collections of them have been found in the ocean.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/19/SS6JS8RH0.DTL

And the tax is to help pay for collecting those "huge toxic collections", right? Then since all plastic is made from oil resin, why shouldn't all plastics be banned?

Furthermore, I have to think that most of these plastic bags get recycled, just the same way that most people toss their used milk containers, juice containers, soda bottles, etc. into recycle bins. So, what's the problem?

So, besides inventing affordable alternative energy solutions, we must now revisit and invent packaging alternatives, as well. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Furthermore, I have to think that most of these plastic bags get recycled, just the same way that most people toss their used milk containers, juice containers, soda bottles, etc. into recycle bins. So, what's the problem?


So all those floating in the oceans seem to miss the re-cycle bin

[boxcar]

So all those floating in the oceans seem to miss the re-cycle bin

Well, then...maybe the alternative and cheaper answer is "education"? It's been working with the kids regarding sex, right? :rolleyes:

Or maybe all those bags were tossed in the big drink before thinking "green" became popular?

Also, what about plastics in general? Shouldn't we ban the manufacture of all plastics, including the variety out of which modern autos are made?

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Well, then...maybe the alternative and cheaper answer is "education"? It's been working with the kids regarding sex, right?

No....youngsters are going to touch one another no matter the education. Or have you that short a memory?

[so.cal.fan]

I use plastic bags to pick up my dog's poop on walks.
I know one thing, our small town of Sierra Madre is going to have a lot of dog poop everywhere, if we have no plastic bags to pick it up.
Any ideas on an alternative?

[46zilzal]

I use plastic bags to pick up my dog's poop on walks.
I know one thing, our small town of Sierra Madre is going to have a lot of dog poop everywhere, if we have no plastic bags to pick it up.
Any ideas on an alternative?
There are biodegrading bags...they just cost more. We use them all the time in our compost

[boxcar]

No....youngsters are going to touch one another no matter the education. Or have you that short a memory?

Oh...so you mean sex ed isn't working? Maybe this accounts why my neighbor, who is a supermarket manager, told me that he has six (6) unwed pregnant teenagers (4 of them still in H.S.!) working at his store. But I digress...because we know that sex ed, too, is a big farce.

But what about this plastics problem, Zill? I mean...if we're going to tax plastic bags, I think they should slap a huge tax on all autos -- in fact, tax everything that is made out of this environmentally-unfriendly stuff. Whaddya think about that idea?

Boxcar

[highnote]

I would not be one bit sad to see the end of plastic grocery bags. Seeing them stuck to a tree limb or a fence along the highway is not a very pleasant sight.

We have switched to canvas bags and we get an immediate 5 cent rebate from the grocery store for each canvas bag we use. That's a helluva lot better than getting free plastic ones.

Besides, we don't need any more plastic bags. My wife has collected and stored a lifetime supply of them in our basement -- a collection that is truly mind boggling.

[46zilzal]

I meant ABSTINENCE as sex education will not work. Protection does.

There aren't too many other types of plastic floating in the ocean.

[highnote]

I use plastic bags to pick up my dog's poop on walks.
I know one thing, our small town of Sierra Madre is going to have a lot of dog poop everywhere, if we have no plastic bags to pick it up.
Any ideas on an alternative?


How about disposable doggie diapers?

How about banning dogs within the city limits? In Reykjavík, Iceland dogs are banned.

In New York City, dog poop is as ubiquitous as the plastic grocery bags that blow around the city. I don't think it makes a difference whether you have plastic bags or not. Many people won't clean up after their dogs anyway.

What did people do with their dog's poop before the advent of plastic bags?

[so.cal.fan]

46?
What are the bags called and where can I get them?

[46zilzal]

46?
What are the bags called and where can I get them?
not the same brand but the same idea is here.
http://www.ecosafeplastics.com/qs/page/2856/0/-1

How is the smell now from the new track in Arcadia? Still smell like old tires?

[so.cal.fan]

They have put synthetic rubber material in the paddock and walking ring area.
The new track has not been set down as of today......I intend to go over the afternoon and check on it.
Problem is, as I understand it, the synthetic material is in trouble when it gets over 85'. This is happening at Del Mar and it is very problematic.
They try to water the track as often as they can, but it's obviously not working yet
The other day, the water truck went over right before the first race and maiden claimers ran in 108 and change. Later that afternoon the alw. horses ran much slower!
I haven't been down there but have been told this by horsemen who are there.
Thanks for the bag information.
Sierra Madre dog owners are pretty responsible in regards to picking up after their dogs. Their dogs are welcomed downtown to our sidewalk cafe's and they even provide water dishes and in some cases treats for the dogs.
I bring my little dog in the local Bank of America.

[boxcar]

I meant ABSTINENCE as sex education will not work. Protection does.

Yeah...for starters, tell that to the six pregnant teenagers.

There aren't too many other types of plastic floating in the ocean.

Yeah...well, what about all the plastic "floating" around in landfills and junkyards, etc.? Your goddess can't be too happy about that.

Boxcar

[RobinFromIreland]

I live in Ireland. Here there is a nationwide "levy" on plastic bags, and has been for a few years now. I believe Ireland was the first country to introduce such a measure at a national level.

Plastic bags cost 15c (about US$0.22). The levy was designed to encourage people to re-use bags. At 15c a bag, this is far from a revenue generating stream. You see people paying $200 for weekly groceries but won't shell out a $1 for some bags. Its shows how "free" affects things.

I think I heard that plastic bag usage in Ireland is now about 97% of what it was pre-levy. There really is less garbage on the streets. It's much nicer, and re-using plastics bags is not exactly strenuous.

[46zilzal]

I live in Ireland. Here there is a nationwide "levy" on plastic bags, and has been for a few years now. I believe Ireland was the first country to introduce such a measure at a national level.

.
We were just in Skibereen, Ballydogen and Scull (excuse the heathen's spelling!) and noted the progressive way that beautiful country of yours is run. Trains downright amazed us: we got on not knowing where to sit until we saw our names, in LED's above our seats as the Curragh was outside the windows. We found several of my wife's relatives and two pubs with the family name bought us a round each. Even found the ancestral home, still there, in Gubeen.

The Temple Bar was outstanding and I loved all the great horse photos on the wall: Northern Dancer, Mill Reef, and Big Red.

I would go back in an instant.

[46zilzal]

www.biobag.ca is the website for the ones the Mrs in the compost.

[so.cal.fan]

Thanks.
There is a lot of talk on a local message board about these plastic bags and dog owners worried about how they clean up without them.
I'll post your links for the folks here in the foothill cities.

[RobinFromIreland]

...I think I heard that plastic bag usage in Ireland is now about 97% of what it was pre-levy...

Just noticed that I did not type this sentence correctly.

Usage is down 97%. Its pretty much seen as "socially unacceptable" to ask for multiple plastic bags now. People were "nudged" into doing it, to use the currently fashionable term.

[so.cal.fan]

It is starting to get that way where I live, stores like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods don't use plastic bags and encourage patrons to buy their own reuseable bags. Even people who were hesitant, are starting to do it.
Ireland is just ahead of us, but we'll catch up.

[equicom]

Spray the dog poo with liquid nitrogen. It will go rock hard, germs will be frozen and the smell will be too. You can then dispose of it with ease.

Alternatively carry one of those pocket blow torches and heat it up. It will stink terribly and the fumes will get in your hair and clothes (great for attracting PETA chicks and hippies). Once all the moisture is gone, the poo will stop stinking and if you keep heating it then it will catch fire and burn (and will smell bad once again as the carbon breaks off from its bonds, releasing amonia, nitrogen and other disgusting aromagens). Note that I am not seriously suggesting that you do this.... you would probably be breaking a lot of laws and also creating a health risk to yourself and others.

The liquid nitrogen would work, but can you seriously imagine lugging a cylinder of that about with you? Especially if you're walking Rover at the time?

Seriously, teach Rover to do his business somewhere that it is not going to create a problem for others. There's no excuse for being too lazy to train your dog properly, and no excuse not to face your civic responsibility and clean up the poo if he does it in a public place.

[Tom]

I use plastic bags to pick up my dog's poop on walks.
I know one thing, our small town of Sierra Madre is going to have a lot of dog poop everywhere, if we have no plastic bags to pick it up.
Any ideas on an alternative?

Send it to Arnold. With as much as he spreads around, he must be running short! :D