Please, get Desormeaux off this horse NOW!

[PaceAdvantage]

That's my first reaction....

[dcb188]

I guess I am not the only one who thought that Big Brown was going to be a close second. But what a race!

[jognlope]

Quoi?

[PaceAdvantage]

The fact that Kent strangled BB back the moment another horse started breathing down his neck early was all I needed to see...he needs to be taken off this horse....

[tleusin]

I do not think BB likes KD at all. How does BB drift out that far. BB was fighting him after the race. I agree, get KD off of him.

[MNslappy]

I don't understand what's wrong with winning on the lead KD?

[BillW]

The fact that Kent strangled BB back the moment another horse started breathing down his neck early was all I needed to see...he needs to be taken off this horse....

That was a bit of deja vu all over again - kinda weird

[miller17]

BB won on class alone, he's not close to what he was earlier in the year. Curlin got beat, on turf, so maybe an excuse. BB won and didn't look good.

Why would KD not do what he did, after all he did win a couple of races in May the same way.
Hope they meet, doubt they will.

[jognlope]

Did he do that in Derby? Probably not ... why now?

[cj's dad]

BB wins in spite of KD- what is this guy thinking?

[banacek]

Agreed. When he shot out to the lead I said "That's what you should have done in the Belmont" and then he pulls him back..and wrestles him outside..again!

[Tom]

Kent is not as smart as the lead weights he carried.
Get a real rider. BB was impressive winning with that anchor on his back.

[applebee]

I don't understand what's wrong with winning on the lead KD?

personally I think BB might love the front end.

[MNslappy]

I really don't know if there's any "might" about it. This is a supremely talented horse who, for two races in a row, has not really been allowed to "run his race."

[miller17]

What am I missing here? He's won the Derby , Preakness and now the Haskell the same way.
In the Belmont a number of things that no one could forsee, it wasn't his day. He couldn't train, lost a shoe and lost ground at the start when gawking at the start.
And Kent rode a bad race, but either way he couldn't overcome. You don't know if he'd won all four on the lead but we do know that they won 3 others.

Now if it's your opinion that he won despite him...

[PaceAdvantage]

Monmouth is very kind to early speed...witness the horse that almost wired Big Brown a few minutes ago....

BB breaks well from the gate, goes right to the front, is getting into stride, getting into gear, and WHAM, KD strangles him back the moment he sees that shadow of Coal Play come upon him....

BB was heard to exlclaim "Yo KD, WTF was that...again!!??"

I think we can all be grateful that KD didn't ease BB again when he was turning for home and there was no "great burst of acceleration...." :rolleyes:

[dcb188]

From a novice, someone who really should not even be in this discussion yet, why would the jockey do that, hold him back? I fully believe he did, but why would he do it? Keep in mind that my interest in horse racing goes back a whole week now :) But I don't know why a rider would do that to a horse who is trying to win.

[jognlope]

In that case, maybe BB's losing heart. Who should ideally train BB?

[Cratos]

Here we go again, blaming a future hall of fame jockey for a less than expected effort by an over hyped horse. If Desormeaux had allowed Big Brown to run with Coal Play, he probably would have lost.

I still believe Big Brown is the best 3yo of a mediocre crop of 3yos for 2008 and if he goes to the Travers I believe he would have a good chance of winning because of the distance and the Haskell prep would be in his favor.

However putting him in with older horses like Curlin, Well Armed, or Commentator would be a mistake at this time because neither one of those horses will come back to him like Coal Play did in the Haskell.

But as I have said in earlier posts, I don’t believe that he will ever run again and his Haskell performance was good enough to leave racing fans with both a memorable and redeeming impression.

[PaceAdvantage]

He didn't hold him back, he took him back off the pace in dramatic fashion because he must have feared getting into some sort of suicidal early pace duel.

There are more graceful ways to back off a horse determined to have the front end than what you saw at Monmouth this afternoon.

For a "seasoned veteran," KD sure has looked panicky as of late....

[PaceAdvantage]

But as I have said in earlier posts, I don’t believe that he will ever run again and his Haskell performance was good enough to leave racing fans with both a memorable and redeeming impression.The only way this is true is if he hurt himself in the Haskell, which I could easily see happening the way he looked down the stretch....

What did Coal Play do the first quarter in? 23 and change or was it 23 flat? Not exactly ground breaking speed....

KD could have given BB a much less stressful trip in his first start back, instead we get life and death chasing a loose on the lead runner at Monmouth Park...

Way to go KD!

I thought the whole pre-race plan was to GO TO THE FRONT....

[bcgreg]

Classic example of jockey and horse way out of sync...agree with jockey change but...where is the move we saw in Preakness? BB looked to be hurting/favoring and angling out...just my observation.

bcgreg

[ezrabrooks]

KD might get fired over this..but he did right. BB goes with CP, they end up turning a 45 half...and it would have been the Belmont all over again..

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow, 319 views for this thread in 40 minutes....not bad....:lol:

[JustRalph]

From a novice, someone who really should not even be in this discussion yet, why would the jockey do that, hold him back? I fully believe he did, but why would he do it? Keep in mind that my interest in horse racing goes back a whole week now :) But I don't know why a rider would do that to a horse who is trying to win.

Go watch this video and witness one of the greatest meltdowns in the history of Horse racing.............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9QdWOR9XW8

Btw, the winner never won another race.................

here is the race summary http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2004/derby_history/derby_charts/years/2001.html check out the fractions

Pace is everything .................... sometimes................... :lol:

[jognlope]

Well it's obvious we agree on one thing -- we love the horse!!

[JustRalph]

what are the odds "they" find something wrong with him and he heads to the shed?

[Wickel]

I thought BB was done at the 3/8th pole. KD really had to get into him, then he drifted out in last 1/16th. Not too impressive for the connections. This is the weakest field BB's faced since before the Florida Derby, and he squeaked it out.

[PaceAdvantage]

what are the odds "they" find something wrong with him and he heads to the shed?From the looks of his stretch run, they probably won't have to look very far....I was worried he might break down trying to win...

Then again, he didn't look all that great in the stretch of the Florida Derby....and look what happened after that race.

[cj]

Kent said going with the leader would have been suicide. You can see he was right by how bad the leader packed it in.:lol:

[Cratos]

The only way this is true is if he hurt himself in the Haskell, which I could easily see happening the way he looked down the stretch....

What did Coal Play do the first quarter in? 23 and change or was it 23 flat? Not exactly ground breaking speed....

KD could have given BB a much less stressful trip in his first start back, instead we get life and death chasing a loose on the lead runner at Monmouth Park...

Way to go KD!

I thought the whole pre-race plan was to GO TO THE FRONT....

I don’t have any “inside information,” but my “gut” tells me that Zito wanted to make Big Brown run and see if he could tire him. That was a strategy that Frank Whiteley used many years ago in the 1967 Woodward when he sent a “rabbit” out to cook the speedy Dr. Fager which allowed his horse, Damascus to win.

Maybe they should change the jockey on Big Brown and the nay-sayers will have an opportunity to put their emotions aside and deal with objectivity. Can it be that Big Brown is not as good as we all thought? I clearly thought that Big Brown would win the Haskell by 5+ lengths and widening his margin at the end, but I was wrong about the margin even though correct about the race’s winner.

[Mag]

The fact that Kent strangled BB back the moment another horse started breathing down his neck early was all I needed to see...he needs to be taken off this horse....

You are sooooooo 100% correct! The horse absolutely hates him.

This race should set BB up well for the Travers, he needed the race, but now he really needs a rider change, BAD.

[tabasco223]

big brown was ordinary. thats all it seemed to me

[Pace Cap'n]

Here we go again, blaming a future hall of fame jockey for a less than expected effort by an over hyped horse.

KD is already in the hall of fame.

[Wickel]

I think they needed Big Brown to win--period. Retirement will be announced this week. I know that's harsh, but with the way he ran, I can't see him risking what could be a Travers disaster against stronger, threatening his career in the breeding shed.

[bcgreg]

I offer for discussion the following possibilities:

1) BB is an average horse with bad feet in a subpar 3yo crop
2) BB is an above average horse with bad feet that is being mishandled
3) BB is a superior horse with bad feet and is being severely mishandled

The move I saw BB make in the Preakness leads me to believe #3.

Follow up question:

Shouldn't a "superior" horse be able to win at practically any distance with authority?

bcgreg

[Cratos]

KD is already in the hall of fame.

Then that makes my comment even more profound

[Wickel]

If I'm not mistaken, this is KD's was first mount for Dutrow since the Belmont. Dutrow wants no part of him. He'd rather have Prado aboard; I, personally, would like to see Gomez get a shot. As for your post BC, I'd go with No. 2--above average horse, bad feet, mishandled. Everything's gone his way. I'd like to see him face Pyro, Colonel John and War Pass when there isn't 20 other runners in the race.

[cmoore]

Here we go again, blaming a future hall of fame jockey for a less than expected effort by an over hyped horse. If Desormeaux had allowed Big Brown to run with Coal Play, he probably would have lost.



I totally agree.. Those fractions would of been real fast and I'm not sure Big Brown wins. Why get into a speed duel with a horse who's won a MSW and Alw race. It's obvious Big Brown isn't the same horse as he was. Let's stop blaming KD.

[Charlie D]

I offer for discussion the following possibilities:

1) BB is an average horse with bad feet in a subpar 3yo crop
2) BB is an above average horse with bad feet that is being mishandled
3) BB is a superior horse with bad feet and is being severely mishandled

The move I saw BB make in the Preakness leads me to believe #3.

Follow up question:

Shouldn't a "superior" horse be able to win at practically any distance with authority?

bcgreg

:1: imo

[Irish Boy]

Do people understand the definition of "average"?

[fmhealth]

Did BB always run with "Fronts"? In any event, I think he needs to be retired ASAP.

[Tape Reader]

I can't repeat it verbatim (party), but I think Frank Lyons (TVG) explained how BB favored his left lead turning into the stretch.
Kent needed to tug BB to the left.
IMO, Dutrow did not have positive body language after the race.
Anyone have the tape?

[SmartyParty]

[QUOTE=Cratos]Here we go again, blaming a future hall of fame jockey for a less than expected effort by an over hyped horse. If Desormeaux had allowed Big Brown to run with Coal Play, he probably would have lost.



Kent already is a HOF jockey!

[JeremyJet]

That's my first reaction....

I agree 100%.

[PaceAdvantage]

In any event, I think he needs to be retired ASAP.Is this thread a contest to see who can post the most "out there" reply?

He wins the Haskell (a race more than a few people said pre-race he would not only lose, but finish up the track) and he should immediately be retired?

If he's not injured, why should he be retired? Did you see the Florida Derby? He didn't exactly look stellar down the lane of that race either.

What BB needs is Edgar Prado on his back, no more freshenings, and another shot at 10 furlongs. However, with as tough a race as he had in the Haskell, we can all but throw the Travers out the window as a possibility.

[CryingForTheHorses]

You guys are amazing,One of the reasons I hardly post here anymore,WHAT makes you guys happy???Bitching when he loses and bitching when he wins. I just dont understand all your thoughts.A half in 46 and if he went to the front he may have burnt himself out. I think he ran well for being off for almost 60 days. I would drift out in the stretch myself.The jock did the right thing!!..IF he went to the front and got beat it would just be another excuse for all of your bitching.Give the connections credit..They bagged 600k...Enough said

[Pace Cap'n]

If I'm not mistaken, this is KD's was first mount for Dutrow since the Belmont. Dutrow wants no part of him. He'd rather have Prado aboard; I, personally, would like to see Gomez get a shot. As for your post BC, I'd go with No. 2--above average horse, bad feet, mishandled. Everything's gone his way. I'd like to see him face Pyro, Colonel John and War Pass when there isn't 20 other runners in the race.

I'm pretty sure Dutrow rode KD right back at Belmont, even as they were having their "spat".

[devilsbag]

I am a lurker extraordinare, but I don't see this the same way as most of you.

First off, I hate when riders strangle horses back. See Santos and Funny Cide as a recent example.

But don't for one minute think that Zito wasn't looking to do the same thing to Dutrow again here that happened in the Belmont. Bravo on a horse with speed at Monmouth? They went :23 as it was, was Desormeaux supposed to go :22.3 and outrun him?

The drifting out in the stretch was troubling and the fact he looked beat before that wasn't impressive, especially against this bunch. This did not look like the horse we saw in the Derby, but maybe his "diet" has changed.

Personally, I'd be shopping for a grass race for him. Between the feet plus his explosive maiden breaker last year, he might return to top form.

[Tampa Russ]

You guys are amazing,One of the reasons I hardly post here anymore,WHAT makes you guys happy???Bitching when he loses and bitching when he wins. I just dont understand all your thoughts.A half in 46 and if he went to the front he may have burnt himself out. I think he ran well for being off for almost 60 days. I would drift out in the stretch myself.The jock did the right thing!!..IF he went to the front and got beat it would just be another excuse for all of your bitching.Give the connections credit..They bagged 600k...Enough said

I am glad he won, and I hope he's fit to run again. As for the jock doing the right thing, no way. It's Monmouth..he breaks in stride and in front. All he has to do to seal the deal is float CP out a path for about half a turn to take the starch out of him, and then settle behind him. To surrender the lead as he did, on that surface with a Lone E type in the race, was a huge risk to take, and it almost cost him the race.

[applebee]

The fact that Kent strangled BB back the moment another horse started breathing down his neck early was all I needed to see...he needs to be taken off this horse....

I agree. How easy would it have been for BB to hold Zitos horse off the rail
at least thru the turn then if the pace got a little scary ease off.

[ghostyapper]

The good
A gutsy win for Brown. He showed heart and determination that some believed he did not have.

The bad
Working so hard to beat that competition, he has proven he is nowhere near the level he needs to be to compete against older, especially curlin. In my mind he still needs to prove that he's even the best 3yo, let alone that he can compete against curlin, well armed, go between, etc

The ugly
I am shocked to visit the board and not see a post-race post by 46 with a printout showing how Coal Play had the highest number and was a serious threat to a 1-5 favorite. :D

[Shenanigans]

The only thing I didn't like about this ride from KD was after the race pulling the horse up. He was see-sawing on his mouth, making him shake his head - that isn't good for the legs - and when KD still couldn't get him pulled him, he turns him in a small circle, still galloping - he's an idiot. This horse has never appeared to be rank or hard to handle when the girl is galloping him in the morning. I would assume her hands are much softer than the ape hands of KD and it is the very reason the horse looks miserable with him in the saddle.

[Hank]

I am glad he won, and I hope he's fit to run again. As for the jock doing the right thing, no way. It's Monmouth..he breaks in stride and in front. All he has to do to seal the deal is float CP out a path for about half a turn to take the starch out of him, and then settle behind him. To surrender the lead as he did, on that surface with a Lone E type in the race, was a huge risk to take, and it almost cost him the race.

Bullseye!If your riding the best horse the lesser animal will crack and then you break the race open turning for home.

[sandpit]

The only thing I didn't like about this ride from KD was after the race pulling the horse up. He was see-sawing on his mouth, making him shake his head - that isn't good for the legs - and when KD still couldn't get him pulled him, he turns him in a small circle, still galloping - he's an idiot. This horse has never appeared to be rank or hard to handle when the girl is galloping him in the morning. I would assume her hands are much softer than the ape hands of KD and it is the very reason the horse looks miserable with him in the saddle.

Exactly! I said the same thing to a friend right after the race; KD fits this horse about as good as Pat Day did on Dollar Bill. I'm not a huge Dutrow fan, but he did say a while back that Desormeaux looked horrible on the horse when he breezed him. Why would it be any different in the afternoon?

[Premier Turf Club]

This did not look like the horse we saw in the Derby, but maybe his "diet" has changed.

For one, he's not getting Winstrol anymore.

[karlskorner]

BIG BROWN showed in front at the break then was eased back off the lead
through the opening furlong, moved just off the inside into the clubhouse
turn and tracked the leader, was asked to pick it up on the final turn,
responded to steady right handed pressure through the lane, drifted out
some and wore down the pacesetter while drawing clear late".

I guess some people just saw the race different. KD knew what he was doing.

[Marlin]

I, personally, would like to see Gomez get a shot.He can butcher one as good as anybody. The ride on Cherokee Artist in WV was BRUTAL. But the point is taken. I believe that KD is as good as any other option. However, the pressure is extremely high. IMO he is thinking too much. Just ride baby. Just ride.

[OTM Al]

Did BB always run with "Fronts"? In any event, I think he needs to be retired ASAP.

Yes. He has a tendency to cut up the backs of his ankles. The wraps keep that from being worse than it is.

As to what I saw, looked like a first off a layoff effort of an above average horse. Managed to win even though he wasn't at his best. Curlin looked far worse in this race if you remember last year....He may get another race in him before the hoof pops again though. Turf would be better for him, but they aren't going that way.

[ezpace]

SHORTEST GUY IN ANY JOCK ROOM FROM THE CHIN UP.

CLASSY Gr1 horse with feet problems coming off 60 days L/O

Monmouth close by his home track . he should of had a work

at Monmouth. .feet stinging FAST work at AQU. then new surface today

took a lot out of him..

[JustRalph]

For one, he's not getting Winstrol anymore.


excellent point............

[Investorater]

Must agree with Cratos,and the first paragraph in post #31.

It was a masterful ride by Kent Desormeaux,also it was too close for comfort,but saw some versatility from BB.

[PaceAdvantage]

It was a masterful ride by Kent Desormeaux,also it was too close for comfort,but saw some versatility from BB.Well, if masterful means life and death against a bunch he should have rolled over wire to wire, then ok, it was a masterful ride....:rolleyes:

IMHO, the moment KD stopped riding BB as if he were riding the best horse in the race (and this clearly happened in the early stages of the Belmont Stakes), that's the moment he should have been booted off of this horse permanently.

He showed it again today, he's riding scared and panicky, but he got lucky and won anyway.

[thruncy]

KD is no stranger to doing goofy things. He once enabled me to cash a $10,000 super @ DMR. He's still a great rider and none of these comments seem to account for the fact that Zito had a double pronged attack--albeit Coal...is no fearsome closer. In this case, KD did what he had to do...AND there's more to this story--much more--Joe 6Pack. Rock on.

[banacek]

I just wish they'd let him run, he just looks like he wants to run and it keeps looking like KD doesn't want to let him. And sometimes when a horse wants to run and the jock won't let him - then later on the horse says "too late" when the jock asks him to go.

Now this horse aint Secretariat, but can you imagine Turcotte wrestling him from taking the lead in the Belmont - pull him back, wrestle him to the outside - sure Sham go ahead - who knows what might have happened. Or the Preakness - horse sweeps by the whole field on the first turn..Turcotte let him go. Now that's not a fair comparison I know, but it's the best I can think of right now.

Sometimes horses just want to run.

[broadreach]

I thought KD did ok overall. He did the right thing to fire BB out of the gates, and when taken on for the lead held back instead of risking a duel.
I'd like to see BB have a lone lead in the Travers if possible.

[mylosh]

KD's wife is hot

Big Brown is alright, he's a nice guy. I hope he runs in the classic, but financially doesn't it make sense to retire him. Don't they have like a big stud deal, why would they risk another race?

[PaceAdvantage]

...but financially doesn't it make sense to retire him.You answered your own question. If it did make sense, he'd be retired. Perhaps the story of IEAH only receiving $5M to date from Three Chimneys for 10% of BB and the rights to manage his stud career is actually true.

[JustRalph]

I KNOW THAT CAPS ARE NOT ALLOWED AND I KNOW THAT PACEADVANTAGE.COM DOES NOT ALLOW FREEDOM OF SPEACH.


you are not entitled to any right that you can't spell, including SPEACH :lol:

[jognlope]

They aren't mill toasts on this site and certainly don't speak the same way they would if they were in a room with KD and looking at his face. But it's just letting off steam and they care about the horse. KD said in bloodhorse article he feared getting BB in a suicidal speed duel so he took him back. But now maybe he's screwd up BB's head.

[jognlope]

Milk with a k toasts? Well I pulled that one out of the hat.

[ghostyapper]

Curlin looked far worse in this race if you remember last year.

Far worse? He lost to 2 horses that if they were in yesterday's race, brown would be battling for 3rd.

[Tom]

you are not entitled to any right that you can't spell, including SPEACH :lol:

No, no...it is NOT me! I gotd Spell Checker now! :lol:

[OTM Al]

Far worse? He lost to 2 horses that if they were in yesterday's race, brown would be battling for 3rd.

You mean like Curlin? (You really stepped into that one, sorry)

I don't think he is as good as Curlin and his feet will never let him get there even if he does have the talent, however as a first off a layoff at a new track it wasn't nearly as bad as some are making it to be. It certainly wasn't great either, but it was ok.

[sammy the sage]

""Personally, I'd be shopping for a grass race for him. ""

BINGO!

[Bruddah]

Congratulations to Big Brown and all his connections. I lost my bet because I under estimated BB's tenacity at the end. I honestly thought Zito's horse had it won and would make me look like a genius. But, about the time my head started to swell, BB popped my balloon. :D

Here is a question some of you numbers guys can answer. What were the final 1/8 and 1/4 times for BB and CP. I ask, because it looked more like CP was running a 14+ for the final 1/8th and BB was running just a little faster. BB was leg weary at the end, as well. However, the long lay off probably was more of a factor for him.

Nick Zito is making a quiet but subtle statement. I think Zito thinks BB can be had and is not as good, as everyone thinks. However Nick is the consumate pro and Gentleman. He is letting his horses do the running and he is not running his mouth. I think Nick Zito is a heck of a horseman. (JMHO) :ThmbUp:

[ghostyapper]

You mean like Curlin? (You really stepped into that one, sorry)
.

Actually I didn't. You said curlin's race was much worse than BB. If brown finishes in the same spot how is it much better than what curlin did?

[PaceAdvantage]

Final eighth went in :13.11

Like I said in another thread, the more I watch this race, the more I think BB ran a very good race for a comeback after that Belmont screw up.

[PaceAdvantage]

They aren't mill toasts on this site and certainly don't speak the same way they would if they were in a room with KD and looking at his face.Why would I tell KD to get himself off of BB? :lol: Of course I'd save that for Dutrow and Ivarone, if I happen to be in the same room as them.

As for KD, I'd tell him he's a HOF jockey who for some reason, doesn't really fit this horse all that well. Witness the fact that Dutrow banned him from BB in the mornings, and the Belmont disaster. That's all I need to see.

Nothing personal. Strictly business.

I'm sure he's a swell guy, a great husband, and an awesome father. But that's not what this board is about. It's about horse racing.

[cj]

I tend to agree with you. I haven't done my own final time figures yet, but assuming the Beyer of 106, the pace figure will be about 111 for the leader, 108 for Big Brown.

[098poi]

Congratulations to Big Brown and all his connections. I lost my bet because I under estimated BB's tenacity at the end. I honestly thought Zito's horse had it won and would make me look like a genius. But, about the time my head started to swell, BB popped my balloon. :D

Here is a question some of you numbers guys can answer. What were the final 1/8 and 1/4 times for BB and CP. I ask, because it looked more like CP was running a 14+ for the final 1/8th and BB was running just a little faster. BB was leg weary at the end, as well. However, the long lay off probably was more of a factor for him.

Nick Zito is making a quiet but subtle statement. I think Zito thinks BB can be had and is not as good, as everyone thinks. However Nick is the consumate pro and Gentleman. He is letting his horses do the running and he is not running his mouth. I think Nick Zito is a heck of a horseman. (JMHO) :ThmbUp:


I thought the same thing. It actually was pretty impressive of BB to pass Coal Play. Coal Play still beat the others by 4 and a quarter lengths after leading the whole way, so it's not like he ran out of gas, finished fifth and BB just breezed on by. I've got to respect BB. With all the human nonsense surrounding him he still showed up!

[jognlope]

Pace, I understand I sometimes over-react to the tone of the posts.... the letting off steam. It's all that testosterone ... ok don't comment, don't comment!!! You know what I mean.

[cj's dad]

They aren't mill toasts on this site and certainly don't speak the same way they would if they were in a room with KD and looking at his face.

Yeah, I'd sure be afraid to speak my mind in front of that hulk of a guy, KD.:lol:

[DeanT]

Like I said in another thread, the more I watch this race

That's your first mistake. I do it too. ;)

The horse was bad. Too many physical problems I guess.

[Bobzilla]

I believe Tampa Russ hit it dead noogies on when he wrote BB would have been better served if his rider had floated CP out into the 2P going into the first turn, THEN settle the big guy back. Trust me, if KD had done this then getting by CP would not have been as tough as it ended up being. I actually thought CP was going to win the race until about the 1/16 marker. That would have been more a case of the track defeating BB and not his Lone E opponent.

Perhaps it's because I do my own numbers and I religiously study replays on a daily basis, but it's my opinion horses are often put into a position by their riders to battle with a track tendency as well as having to battle with their equine competition. If BB was off his A effort yesterday after the short layoff then that really was a nice effort on his part to get up on CP yesterday given the circumstances. My brother mentioned to me that earlier in yesterday's MTH card a horse who wants no part of anything past 6f almost took it to the house trying a distance of ground for the first time. I look back to Benny The Bull's win on Belmont Day and how life and death he was to get by Man of Danger, a horse BTB is probably about 10 to 15 speed points better than. So, horses do have to fight the track at times and the way it's playing, not just their competitors.

I think BB is a nice horse whose brief career has been plagued by foot problems as well as some other factors I need not get into. I have compassion for him and want him to be happy, as with all animals. Having said that, I firmly believe he is lucky he wasn't born a year earlier as his reputation would have been better alligned with reality, and that is that he's just another really nice horse but not really anything close to special. I do not believe he would have ever been competitive with last year's big 4: Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun and Rags To Ritches; Moreover, I'm not sure he would have even been competitive with the second tier from last year: Any Given Saturday and possibly Tiago, though he might have had tactical advantages on the latter at times. Horses put up good numbers when they can expend their energy in the most advantageous and efficient manner possible, a feat made much easier when the competition amounts to nothing more than glorified alowance company.

[asH]

Nice ride by Bravo on the lead horse, Bravo showed why he's so tough a Mth. Race was run in the middle fractions (which led to the 13.11-adjust for BB), KD made 3 moves on BB (down the back - after realizing Bravo was getting away, around the turn after Bravo took off, then in the stretch after leveling 0ff) ...someone mentioned how similar the start was to the Belmont- DeJa Vu... it wasnt the horse. Not a good ride by KD, but considering the layoff a good race by BB. BB's class saved an otherwise not so good ride by KD.

[toetoe]

... he overcame the bias AND the jockey.

The HoF jockey argument is beside the point. Many of us have bemoaned rides by Santos and Pat "Relaxwegotall" Day; we are not personally singling out DZorm.
Cratos, your unintentional gaffe was to mention Well Armed and especially Commentator ( :sleeping: ) in the same breath with Curlin. Commentator in a race with a decent pace versus decent animals: NO SHOT !

[asH]

KD still top 4 in the country inspite of BB tribulations

JRVelasquez, Gomez, Bejarano...look out belowooo

[bellsbendboy]

The only thing that would be more absurd than criticizing Desormeax for his ride yesterday would be if Ivarone ever ran this colt again. BBB

[Investorater]

Sometimes our quick reactions turn out to be wrong.....K D=Terrible display in Belmont.....Superb performance in Haskell.....We can always agree to disagree.

[delayjf]

I would have done the samething that KD did. Why risk a speed duel with an inferior horse after a 60 day layoff coming off the triple crown?? Not to mention the muscle lost due to his not getting steroids anymore.

However, the only way this race is impressive is if BB battled a track bias which kept him from dominating this field. If that is not the case, then I will be betting against him in his next start.

[Cratos]

... he overcame the bias AND the jockey.

The HoF jockey argument is beside the point. Many of us have bemoaned rides by Santos and Pat "Relaxwegotall" Day; we are not personally singling out DZorm.
Cratos, your unintentional gaffe was to mention Well Armed and especially Commentator ( :sleeping: ) in the same breath with Curlin. Commentator in a race with a decent pace versus decent animals: NO SHOT !

Sorry to inform you, but I wasn’t making a comparison between Curlin, Well Armed (whom Curlin destroyed in Dubai), or Commentator. My point was to say that Big Brown would have a tough time against either of the three. By the way, if you followed my posts on the PA Forum about Curlin, you will find that I am an ebullient Curlin fan and have been since his inception to the racetrack

[applebee]

Monmouth is very kind to early speed...witness the horse that almost wired Big Brown a few minutes ago....

BB breaks well from the gate, goes right to the front, is getting into stride, getting into gear, and WHAM, KD strangles him back the moment he sees that shadow of Coal Play come upon him....

BB was heard to exlclaim "Yo KD, WTF was that...again!!??"

I think we can all be grateful that KD didn't ease BB again when he was turning for home and there was no "great burst of acceleration...." :rolleyes:

I cant agree more!
The Belmont:you have the most to lose you cannot possibly allow anyone else dictate how the pace is going to go! At least go up and Keep the pace honest.
The Haskell:9 out of 12 previous races were won by horses using the rail to their advantage.Why would you give it up so easily? I think BB gutted out
a win here despite KD.

[matthewsiv]

That fraction is not impressive.

[matthewsiv]

Are you serious?

What about Prado, Coa ad Cornelio?

I would not put him on my bike.

[Bruddah]

I believe Tampa Russ hit it dead noogies on when he wrote BB would have been better served if his rider had floated CP out into the 2P going into the first turn, THEN settle the big guy back. Trust me, if KD had done this then getting by CP would not have been as tough as it ended up being. I actually thought CP was going to win the race until about the 1/16 marker. That would have been more a case of the track defeating BB and not his Lone E opponent.

Perhaps it's because I do my own numbers and I religiously study replays on a daily basis, but it's my opinion horses are often put into a position by their riders to battle with a track tendency as well as having to battle with their equine competition. If BB was off his A effort yesterday after the short layoff then that really was a nice effort on his part to get up on CP yesterday given the circumstances. My brother mentioned to me that earlier in yesterday's MTH card a horse who wants no part of anything past 6f almost took it to the house trying a distance of ground for the first time. I look back to Benny The Bull's win on Belmont Day and how life and death he was to get by Man of Danger, a horse BTB is probably about 10 to 15 speed points better than. So, horses do have to fight the track at times and the way it's playing, not just their competitors.

I think BB is a nice horse whose brief career has been plagued by foot problems as well as some other factors I need not get into. I have compassion for him and want him to be happy, as with all animals. Having said that, I firmly believe he is lucky he wasn't born a year earlier as his reputation would have been better alligned with reality, and that is that he's just another really nice horse but not really anything close to special. I do not believe he would have ever been competitive with last year's big 4: Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun and Rags To Ritches; Moreover, I'm not sure he would have even been competitive with the second tier from last year: Any Given Saturday and possibly Tiago, though he might have had tactical advantages on the latter at times. Horses put up good numbers when they can expend their energy in the most advantageous and efficient manner possible, a feat made much easier when the competition amounts to nothing more than glorified alowance company.

Which, I look forward to reading their posts. Bobzilla is among that group. If you read the above, you will know why. Well thought out and written. Not to add "Dead On" accurate. Thanks for the post Bob. You stated it the way I wished I had the smarts to do it. :ThmbUp:

[equicom]

I haven't made up my mind about Dessie yet, but he has made some "interesting" decisions at times.

General consensus amongst trainers is that horses that are bred for turf have a slightly different hoof structure, so those that are bred to run on dirt are at a disadvantage.

Big Brown is a tough customer, that's why they (and Dessie) couldn't stop him in this race.

By rights he shouldn't have been in the race at all, because the owners stated that "win or lose" he would be retired after the Belmont.

He did run every which way on the run to the line, but he actually is normally a beautiful mover. I have seen him work and he is amazing to watch.

He just wants to be allowed to do what he does. That's the big problem for most horses. Humans think they know best and mostly don't ever get around to consulting the horse.

[joanied]

Well, nothing like getting the last word...and looks like I will because I just read through 97 posts...ohmy:D
My reaction to Big Brown's win -- :jump: :jump: :jump: I knew he'd get 'er done!!

It wasn't pretty. I recorded the race on two channels, and didn't see the ESPN version until late today...the interview when Dutrow says he wants BB to have it his way...meaning, break on top...go for it..must not have been heard by Kent D.
He IS a HoF rider, and I love the guy...but come on, Kent...time for you to listen to this horse. BB needs to run his race and for some reason, Kent insists on this 'stop & go' game...that'd be enough for a lot of horses to just quit. Horses have incredible memories...and I'd bet when they hit the final turn, BB figured it was going to be pull up time...he didn't really get rolling until he realized he was going to get to run... and then the gallop out was incredulous...BB tossing his head like that...why didn't Kent gallop him out until he realxed enough to pull up without a fight... looked like dejavu...and made KD look like a bug boy.

I don't think BB likes Kent D... he just doesn't seem to fit with BB, and I wish IEAH would try Prado on the horse...and needless to say, Dutrow would love that, since he wanted Prado on the horse from day one. (I don't like the way KD sits this horse down the stretch...he sits too high and seems unbalanced...I'd like to see Prado crouched down on him, giving him encouragment, not dictating to him like KD has done) I will give him credit for brilliant rides in the Derby & Preakness...or maybe it was just that BB was so much the best, he made Kent look good?

His subtle lugging out down the lane is something he's done before...not sure what to make of that, I've seen horses run that way that are sound as a dollar, but realize most will say it's because something on his right side is bothering him...

he beat a bunch of horses that he should have beat...and I beleive if he'd been allowed to run the race his way, he'd have won easier...but, despite all the bad memories he still has in his head, Kent's stop & go game and being told how to run this race...BB showed up and showed that not only is he a fast horse...but he has courage, heart & class.

He done :ThmbUp: good

[PaceAdvantage]

By rights he shouldn't have been in the race at all, because the owners stated that "win or lose" he would be retired after the Belmont.I don't know where you get your information, but this is an entirely false statement. The owners of BB never stated at any time that BB would be retired "win or lose" after the Belmont.

But then again, maybe I missed this bombshell during all the hubbub of Belmont week. Anyone have a link?

[PaceAdvantage]

That fraction is not impressive.Yes, but Big Brown went the final fraction in 12 3/5....any better?

[samyn on the green]

Nice postI believe Tampa Russ hit it dead noogies on when he wrote BB would have been better served if his rider had floated CP out into the 2P going into the first turn, THEN settle the big guy back. Trust me, if KD had done this then getting by CP would not have been as tough as it ended up being. I actually thought CP was going to win the race until about the 1/16 marker. That would have been more a case of the track defeating BB and not his Lone E opponent.

Perhaps it's because I do my own numbers and I religiously study replays on a daily basis, but it's my opinion horses are often put into a position by their riders to battle with a track tendency as well as having to battle with their equine competition. If BB was off his A effort yesterday after the short layoff then that really was a nice effort on his part to get up on CP yesterday given the circumstances. My brother mentioned to me that earlier in yesterday's MTH card a horse who wants no part of anything past 6f almost took it to the house trying a distance of ground for the first time. I look back to Benny The Bull's win on Belmont Day and how life and death he was to get by Man of Danger, a horse BTB is probably about 10 to 15 speed points better than. So, horses do have to fight the track at times and the way it's playing, not just their competitors.

I think BB is a nice horse whose brief career has been plagued by foot problems as well as some other factors I need not get into. I have compassion for him and want him to be happy, as with all animals. Having said that, I firmly believe he is lucky he wasn't born a year earlier as his reputation would have been better alligned with reality, and that is that he's just another really nice horse but not really anything close to special. I do not believe he would have ever been competitive with last year's big 4: Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun and Rags To Ritches; Moreover, I'm not sure he would have even been competitive with the second tier from last year: Any Given Saturday and possibly Tiago, though he might have had tactical advantages on the latter at times. Horses put up good numbers when they can expend their energy in the most advantageous and efficient manner possible, a feat made much easier when the competition amounts to nothing more than glorified alowance company.

[samyn on the green]

Kent gave him a good ride. Do you really want to get into a suicide pace duel with a 20-1 rabbit and set it up for the barns closer? There is much history between Dutrow and Zito and the instructions for Coal Play were go as fast as you can and push Brown into oblivion, Kebnt was shrewd to bide his time with one run. It was a very sensible ride. The fact that Kent strangled BB back the moment another horse started breathing down his neck early was all I needed to see...he needs to be taken off this horse....

[PaceAdvantage]

Kent gave him a good ride. Do you really want to get into a suicide pace duel with a 20-1 rabbit and set it up for the barns closer?For much of the race, BB was barely a length behind Coal Play.

Nobody was asking KD to get into a suicidal speed dual. Just don't surrender like the French at the first whiff of another horse's breath!

I mean, stop screwing with this horse's head. How many times does Dutrow have to say "JUST LET HIM RUN HIS RACE!?!?!?!"

The quick submission into the first turn, and the incredibly unprofessional gallop-out/pull-up post race tells you that KD and BB don't mix.

Can anyone shed further detail as to exactly what led to Dutrow kicking KD off of BB in the mornings? This was reported by Jeanine Edwards prior to the Belmont Stakes, but no further details ever emerged on this intriguing and telling comment.

[maxwell]

I didn't see this race but I did see KD in action in the Belmont. We all know how strange that race was. He gave a questionable ride on Real Quiet in the Belmont and lost the Triple Crown on the wire. He has too much experience to say he might be suffering from "stage fright" but he has a real knack for "stepping in it" when it comes to these big races. But I still think he's a top-notch rider.

I would like to see BB turned out for the rest of the season and show us what he can do as a somewhat mature runner. I don't see him beating up on older horses in the BC Classic or anything. He's still just a baby. :)

[asH]

Bravo deserves credit, he rode the perfect ride, Bravo had a plan and executed it perfectly, knowing how fast he should go, when to ask his horse to go. Kent, perhaps not knowing Mth bias or confidence in Big Brown settled in back of Bravo originally concerned with horses behind him, after refocusing his attention on Bravo Kent initiated his first move asking BB to move closer knowing he was out of position. Bravo -into the turn let out a notch, Kent too asked BB matching Bravo around the turn but held his position realizing Bravo had more. BB lost some ground as both jock and horse struggled with each other for control...Perhaps in those moments of the stretch run both BB and KD finally exorcised their demons, put it all together to show us all what a class race horse is all about, heart. It was a good race for both of them. I would go light on the last fraction because of all the ...in fighting between KD and BB...

[lamboguy]

exercise riders are usually much heavier than jockey's. the exercise rider usually can take more of a hold of the horse so he can't run off and run his race in the morning instead of the afternoon.

the best example i can give you is that robin smullen was the execise rider for funnycide. 3 days before the belmont stakes the funny guy worked in 58 2/5 on a dead belmont oval. if you don't think that smoke wasn't coming out of barclay's ears after that work, you better not bet another horse race. robin is his girlfriend of many years, she just couldn't take a good hold of the horse, the result was a tired horse 3 days later.

if you look at the works for steve asmussen week of race you always see the same time, 1:02, every single time, by design. no matter how good or bad the horse is, that is the way he trains.

[equicom]

I don't know where you get your information, but this is an entirely false statement. The owners of BB never stated at any time that BB would be retired "win or lose" after the Belmont.

But then again, maybe I missed this bombshell during all the hubbub of Belmont week. Anyone have a link?

Nah, it <i>was</i> reported in the news, I just don't remember where I saw it. But if I do find the article again, I'll post a link. Maybe it's the international factor (your news guys not reporting *all* the news or something?).

Anyhow, I did a simple google search and found this, which is a starting point. Maybe somebody else will find the exact quote, but this in itself is pretty convincing indication that they planned to retire him after the TC races, and that his losing was a major factor in the decision to go back to the track with him.

Link: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2008/May/14/Big-Brown-owner-says-Boundary-colt-will-not-race-at-four.aspx

[46zilzal]

Desormeaux has never been better than competent.....never flashy, rarely makes a difference.

[equicom]

Well, I still haven't tracked it down and I'm too lazy to invest any more time on it. The closest I got, without winning the cigar, was this one:

http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/19080439.html

It is probably the case that the owner spoke to the media without checking with Dutrow on the plans, and the early buzz was on this statement so when the reporters asked Dutrow about he said "That's the first I heard of it" (actual quote). He then went on to say he had plans for other races, including the Travers, so I suppose everyone back-pedalled on the matter from then on.

It really doesn't matter any more because we're talking here about ancient history, but I am pretty sure that in the original report there was a statement that "win or lose, it (the Belmont Stakes) will be his last race".

That was probably because of all the hype over the quarter-cracks, plus the fact that just prior to the statement the horse had been syndicated for $60-70m.

If I'm wrong, so be it. But I believed it at the time.

Personally I think he should be retired. Lovely horse, great for the sport, but he's done his job and it's not necessary to take the risk of running him.

[46zilzal]

Only THREE Breeder's Cup victories since the first one in 1993.........

[Marshall Bennett]

Desormeaux has never been better than competent.....never flashy, rarely makes a difference.
You two must be related . :lol:

[46zilzal]

You two must be related .
No, I know much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much MORE about racing than he could ever learn in two lifetimes.

[JustRalph]

No, I know much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much MORE about racing than he could ever learn in two lifetimes.


and much much much much much much much much much much much much much more
modest too..............

[equicom]

Any speech therapists on the board?

Seriously, you got to do something about that stuttering.

[jognlope]

Robin has always said FC was "hard to ride," and said it took two outriders to stop him just from breezing. It's too bad about the Belmont, but it didn't help he was in "Dead Rail Lake" Well anyway, FC went on to thrill the crowd a few more times and like the video said, still gets dozens of emails and visitors. I just couldn't help noticing in the stretch of the Wadsworth, FC looked over to the roaring crowd and it's like he said "okay here's one for you," and pulled away.

[WinterTriangle]

he's riding scared and panicky

Exactly the way anyone would feel when an animal doesn't like them. :)

Dem is not a bad jockey, just not a good fit with BB. Anyone who spends time around companion animals notices some animals favor you and others don't.

Dem doesn't *get* BB---and vice-versa. In a competitive sport, if I owned the horse I'd want to give him EVERY advantage. That means not only finding the right race, the right surface, but also the right trainer and jockey. Sitting on BB shouldn't be all that hard---and I have no idea WHY they don't at least TRY BB out with another jockey???????? I'd love to just see this for comparison's sake, to put the question to rest.

Compound this with BB not being in the form he was in the Spring....

I believe BB is an above average horse, maybe a great horse, with somewhat bad feet and the wrong connections. It's hard not to feel a bit bad for BB's "situation"......and I find myself doing just that. :confused: