Taxes ?

[big frank]

Looking for more advice on tax issues.. I have been lucky this year and caught a few over the 5,000 number tickets . I am positive it will be a winning year , but i read that you can get back all of the withholdings at the end of the year. how do i go about proving it was a losing year and get back a refund ? i am counting on getting it all back, but i have never dealt with this before.. this topic may have been covered already , so im sorry if it is getting old. i know there are full time players here that do well and would like your advice please ,, thanks

[Pace Cap'n]

You received factual advice the last time you asked that question, and now you want someone to assist you with tax fraud?

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Keep records of all your bets (date, track, race #, amount bet, amount won or lost, etc.) and save all of your losing tickets.

[jonnielu]

You received factual advice the last time you asked that question, and now you want someone to assist you with tax fraud?

If it were not for fraud, there would be no withholdings in the first place.

I am always amazed at how well the tax fraud works, when I hear or read a fellow citizen express that anything short of sending all that you possibly can to D.C., would have to be tax fraud.

Aren't you at all suspicious of a "system" that has you doing this strictly out of fear? Or, that the withholding is conducted within parameters that would qualify the activity as a crime known as extortion?

Then there is the "fraud" perpetrated upon the bettor in the first place to coerce him to authorize the withholding. Why would something lawful be done in this way?

If the track is somehow authorized to withhold, by the almighty :lol:, IRS, which is somehow authorized to authorize withholding, why is a form pushed across the counter for the bettor to sign, in order to authorize the withholding?

The really funny part, is that those issuing the admonishments, are never any sort of official, officer, judge, or agent. But, always some third party that knows nothing about the system except the concept of send it in, or you could get in a lot of trouble.

jdl

[Pace Cap'n]

The OP asked for advice.

Your philosopical ramblings should be directed at those responsible for the currrent tax laws. That would be the Congress.

[big frank]

sounds like you have not had to many "" signers ' this year pace.c.p,,,,, good luck @ as Harvey says '' may the horse be with you "

[jonnielu]

The OP asked for advice.

Your philosopical ramblings should be directed at those responsible for the currrent tax laws. That would be the Congress.

Then why don't you give him some, instead of assuming that any action on his part would be tax fraud? And, what you mistake for philosophical ramblings are directed at you because you are one of the people that is responsible for the existence of the income tax "system", by allowing it to remain on your back.

You justify this abdication of your authority by suggesting to others that they also should "hear and obey", and that they also should abdicate their authority.

The reason that I interject, is that there is a chance that I might be able to get you and others that wear these chains to stop and think for 5 minutes. Because therein lies another chance that Liberty may again be taken into hand by the people of my country.

jdl

[Pace Cap'n]

Sorry, I didn't realize I was shirking my resposibility. First thing tomorrow I'll go down and change the tax code. Why didn't you remind me sooner?

The OP asked the same question in another thread and received an appropriate response.

He has stated he made a profit this year, and would like to report it as a loss. If that ain't tax fraud, then what is it?

To Frank, I manage to deal with my signers without incurring the spectre of illegal reporting of income and deductions.

[Marlin]

If you are'nt cheating you ain't trying. Give me a break. They will take as much out of you as they can. I would try to take as much out of them as I could. Pace keep paying them taxes, they keep me and my family afloat. Thank you.

[Pace Cap'n]

What a character-revealing thread this is turning out to be.

[Marlin]

What a character-revealing thread this is turning out to be.LOL. It is a horse racing forum. I thought we were all degenerates.:)

[Pcon04]

I got called into the irs for an audit..I brought the ticketes and the

programs it was dog racing but it was the same.I had the tickets

inside the program lots of them with a rubber band around them...

make sure there are no floors " FOOTPRINTS" and that was what he

looked for and the tickets matched the dates in the program

.he looked for 1/2 hour or so

saw what he wanted didn't add up the tickets and I got a clean bill of

health. I got all the $$ back that i asked for make sure you don't try

to get it all.I was to get back 30k and i asked for 27k + .my accountant

said don't try to get it all it keeps them happy or they will fight you ..

It worked
pcon04

[skate]

Looking for more advice on tax issues.. I have been lucky this year and caught a few over the 5,000 number tickets . I am positive it will be a winning year , but i read that you can get back all of the withholdings at the end of the year. how do i go about proving it was a losing year and get back a refund ? i am counting on getting it all back, but i have never dealt with this before.. this topic may have been covered already , so im sorry if it is getting old. i know there are full time players here that do well and would like your advice please ,, thanks

Problems are only as big (nothing personnel here) as YOU want them to become.

You can't (not Legal) carry any lose from another year.

You can deduct what is fair to you (any gamble losses in that particular year), errors will require "Them" (to find) them.

"Them" are only interested in a Win @ 600/1 or more. So if you play $20 and win $1000, you are not liable.

[Marlin]

So if you play $20 and win $1000, you are not liable.Oh no. More tax fraud.:(

[Pcon04]

tax fraud !!! how do you spell 10% er

I'm retired!!! no more audits

Pcon04

[Jeff P]

...why is a form pushed across the counter for the bettor to sign, in order to authorize the withholding?Maybe so that the player signing said forms will have a record... and at the end of the year can add up the amts on said forms and be able to know how much income was reported and how much was withheld?

Look. Conceptually I dislike the idea of taxing gambling winnings in the first place... forms and withholding even more. But I didn't write the tax code. As long as the tax code is what it is we are pretty much stuck following the rules. Get caught breaking the rules and that can land you in serious trouble.

IMHO, there was some very solid advice posted in the other thread. Tax fraud is no laughing matter. If the player actually has a winning year and reports it as a losing year... and gets audited several years later... what do you think the IRS is going to do?


-jp

.

[skate]

Oh no. More tax fraud.:(

You seem to make the statement, as if you dont want clarity, or you are not really sure.

Where is the "more tax fraud".

thanks babe.

[ezrabrooks]

All winnings are taxable..so "if you play $20 and win $1000, you are not liable" is not a true statement.

[jonnielu]

Maybe so that the player signing said forms will have a record... and at the end of the year can add up the amts on said forms and be able to know how much income was reported and how much was withheld?

Look. Conceptually I dislike the idea of taxing gambling winnings in the first place... forms and withholding even more. But I didn't write the tax code. As long as the tax code is what it is we are pretty much stuck following the rules. Get caught breaking the rules and that can land you in serious trouble.

IMHO, there was some very solid advice posted in the other thread. Tax fraud is no laughing matter. If the player actually has a winning year and reports it as a losing year... and gets audited several years later... what do you think the IRS is going to do?


-jp
.

Jeff,

Exactly the point that I am trying to hammer home here - YOU - did not write the tax code. YOUR authority is NOT the authority that underlies it. Until YOU determine that YOU are a federal income tax payer, and sign the form - authorizing its application to YOU.

Congress obtains jurisdiction over YOU, by coercing YOU with fraud and deception.

Add it up, YOU are the authority, YOU did not write the federal tax code. YOU, by nature, are outside the federal jurisdiction. What act can Congress command you take, that changes the nature of fundamental law in this country. NONE.

[ezrabrooks]

Jeff,

Exactly the point that I am trying to hammer home here - YOU - did not write the tax code. YOUR authority is NOT the authority that underlies it. Until YOU determine that YOU are a federal income tax payer, and sign the form - authorizing its application to YOU.

Congress obtains jurisdiction over YOU, by coercing YOU with fraud and deception.

Add it up, YOU are the authority, YOU did not write the federal tax code. YOU, by nature, are outside the federal jurisdiction. What act can Congress command you take, that changes the nature of fundamental law in this country. NONE.

Jon, I think I understand your ideological argument...but, in real time, if you don't provide a SS#, how are you going to get paid?

[jonnielu]

All winnings are taxable..so "if you play $20 and win $1000, you are not liable" is not a true statement.

How can a citizen of this country become liable to provide money to his fellow citizens? If the citizen with money were lawfully liable, the citizen without money would be too.

Truth is, you lawfully determine what is or is not taxable by writing the figure into a little square box on a form, and then authorizing it with your signature.

Sorry, but you will not end withholding at the track until you understand and act on these concepts to exert your authority for change.

jdl

[Jeff P]

...YOU, by nature, are outside the federal jurisdiction....Ok. So after hitting something that requires the cashier to fill out a W-2G I've always signed the forms.

My understanding is that the money stays on the other side of the counter until ID is presented and the form is signed.

Are you saying a player can refuse to sign the form and they will overlook that and just slide the money across the counter anyway?


Congress obtains jurisdiction over YOU, by coercing YOU with fraud and deception.I think I see where you are going with this. But I disagree. They may be coercing me. But I don't think there is any fraud or deception going on.

I hit something that requires a W-2G. If I want to get paid, I have to present my ID and sign the form. Until I do that I don't see my money.


-jp

.

[jonnielu]

Jon, I think I understand your ideological argument...but, in real time, if you don't provide a SS#, how are you going to get paid?

I assure you, it is not an idealogical argument.

I can provide an SS#, because the federal government assigned one to me when I was 13 years old. That does not mean that anything commands that I authorize any action on the part of the track with my signature. And, it does not mean that I have waived any of my rights as a citizen, or have otherwise elected for some other status other then that which comes to me by nature.

It is established that my citizenship does not come from the 14th amendment's federal jurisdiction.


Should the track refuse to pay me I will take legal action.

[jonnielu]

Ok. So after hitting something that requires the cashier to fill out a W-2G I've always signed the forms.

My understanding is that the money stays on the other side of the counter until ID is presented and the form is signed.

Are you saying a player can refuse to sign the form and they will overlook that and just slide the money across the counter anyway?


-jp

.

What they do is always up top them, I would not authorize them to withhold, if they choose to, then it is to me to take whatever legal action necessary. You sign, you lose, you have elected for a taxable status, you have authorized the withholding and the taxation with your mighty pen.

Most gaming entities prefer not to bask in the glow of such publicity.

The suggestion that you MUST unhand your authority should tip you off that you are being screwed.

jdl

[ezrabrooks]

I assure you, it is not an idealogical argument.

I can provide an SS#, because the federal government assigned one to me when I was 13 years old. That does not mean that anything commands that I authorize any action on the part of the track with my signature. And, it does not mean that I have waived any of my rights as a citizen, or have otherwise elected for some other status other then that which comes to me by nature.

It is established that my citizenship does not come from the 14th amendment's federal jurisdiction.


Should the track refuse to pay me I will take legal action.

OK.. So you are saying that you have won a wager at a physical track, in excess of 600/1, and paid without providing a SS#?

[jonnielu]

Ok. So after hitting something that requires the cashier to fill out a W-2G I've always signed the forms.

My understanding is that the money stays on the other side of the counter until ID is presented and the form is signed.

Are you saying a player can refuse to sign the form and they will overlook that and just slide the money across the counter anyway?


I think I see where you are going with this. But I disagree. They may be coercing me. But I don't think there is any fraud or deception going on.

I hit something that requires a W-2G. If I want to get paid, I have to present my ID and sign the form. Until I do that I don't see my money.


-jp

.

Read the 14th amendment, Congress assumes that this is where your citizenship comes from, you evidence that assumption with every IRS document you sign.

Understand this, and understand the plain language of the 14th when it says that you are born in the United States AND subject to the jurisdiction thereof... and to paraphrase...... you have only privileges and immunities..... you are barred from questioning the expenditures of Congress..... you are protected from a legislature (state) that you think is your own......


Read it, then tell me that you would like to authorize it in its application to you and your family.

jdl

[Fwizard]

I have always thought the the tax on pari-mutual gambling is "double taxation" --you are not winning from the track --you are winning from other people hwo have alreadry paid taxes to get the money they are playing with....

[dcb188]

jonnielu: I deal with folks every day who believe they are outside the jurisdiction of the state or the federal government. So I definitely see where you are coming from, and your frustration with authority. This view of one being one's own sovereign has become very common in the last fifty years or so and it on the rise. It leads to all kinds of conflicts with duly constituted authority. (I know, who is the duly constituted authority?) :)
I guess one of the simple ways to look at it is that income is income.
Someone, some years ago, tried to pay the IRS in pennies. They did not allow it. He believed he had a right to pay that way but they ruled against him and he went up higher than the IRS and he was still told that things had to be a certain way, but he did not believe it was his government, that he had obligations as well as rights, and he forgot the expression "Everyone demands their rights; for once, I would like to see just one person demand his responsibilities".
But I see this general thing day in and day out. I hesitated to jump in here, as it is no different than jumping into a discussion about Obama Vs Cain or a discussion about religion, but the reason I did jump in is just to point out that what I see is a trend, nowadays, more and more, to see oneself as somehow outside the pale of any governmental authority. An island.

[jonnielu]

jonnielu: I deal with folks every day who believe they are outside the jurisdiction of the state or the federal government. So I definitely see where you are coming from, and your frustration with authority. This view of one being one's own sovereign has become very common in the last fifty years or so and it on the rise. It leads to all kinds of conflicts with duly constituted authority. (I know, who is the duly constituted authority?) :)
I guess one of the simple ways to look at it is that income is income.
Someone, some years ago, tried to pay the IRS in pennies. They did not allow it. He believed he had a right to pay that way but they ruled against him and he went up higher than the IRS and he was still told that things had to be a certain way, but he did not believe it was his government, that he had obligations as well as rights, and he forgot the expression "Everyone demands their rights; for once, I would like to see just one person demand his responsibilities".
But I see this general thing day in and day out. I hesitated to jump in here, as it is no different than jumping into a discussion about Obama Vs Cain or a discussion about religion, but the reason I did jump in is just to point out that what I see is a trend, nowadays, more and more, to see oneself as somehow outside the pale of any governmental authority. An island.

Hey Dave,

I've heard this side for many years myself, it is what I also heard for much of my life. But, like many other things, I could not just believe this without knowing. The conflicts you anticipate have come and gone. I wouldn't even call them conflicts.

I came to know one thing, that I could only free myself. So, I stopped ringing the bell. Now, I just through a few things out there from time to time, just in case anyone else might want to apply some thought and consider whether or not they may want to free themselves. A choice that every mother's child will make for themselves, whether they know it or not. And, in the end, that may be as good as it gets.

jdl

[dcb188]

Jonnielu: I hear you, I really do. I just think that kind of freedom is an illusion, that no one is completely free nor is it to their advantage to be, although it may sound strange to say that. I will be back in one second with a little more.

[garyscpa]

Read the 14th amendment, Congress assumes that this is where your citizenship comes from, you evidence that assumption with every IRS document you sign.

Understand this, and understand the plain language of the 14th when it says that you are born in the United States AND subject to the jurisdiction thereof... and to paraphrase...... you have only privileges and immunities..... you are barred from questioning the expenditures of Congress..... you are protected from a legislature (state) that you think is your own......


Read it, then tell me that you would like to authorize it in its application to you and your family.

jdl

Just think how much money you can make giving Wesley Snipes horse tips. :lol:

[Irish Boy]

Back here on planet earth:

I don't want to get into a "who's is bigger" match, but suffice it to say that I have enough expertise on the matter to say that 1.) It would be tax fraud, 2.) The chances you would get away with it are fairly high, but 3.) the penalty if you didn't succeed would be severe. Yes, Congress does have authority over you. Sucks, I agree, but it's a legal fact. Declaring something that is not true is fraud. The IRS does not catch all fraud- not by a long shot- but they will make it a living hell for those whom it does catch to discourage others. Either report the winnings, bet enough longshots to show that you can get back to having a losing season, or commit fraud and live the next seven years hoping no one in DC or your state of residence decides to go over your tax forms for any reason, or that you make any other mistakes on your taxes that would require an audit.

[dcb188]

jonnielu: Bear with me just a moment. Focus for a second on this country. You were born here, therefore you are subject to this country's laws, same as if you had been born in Italy you would be conducting yourself according to the laws of Italy right now.
With all its faults and failings, compare the United States with any other country in the world as far as freedom is concerned. Not unlimited freedom, for no one has the unlimited right to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, or do do illegal things because they feel like it, but the real meaning of the word "freedom". Granted that America does not have absolute freedom, but it comes ahead of whatever is in second place worldwide today.
Now take your eyes off of this country and our century and go back into time. What you find in history is no country, no jurisdiction, no place the equal of what we have today in America re freedom. Ancient Rome? Ancient Greece? Empires, dictatorships, kings, queens.
So neither today nor yesterday, and certainly not around the world that we know today, will we find the equal of the United States and what it does for its citizens.

Take two examples of many. Our jury system, and eyewitness testimony.
Our jury system is flawed, but I would rather be judged by 6 or 12 than by a cynical judge by himself or herself.
Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable kind of evidence that there is. Yet what would we replace it with? Hearsay? Out of court written statements by strangers to the case?
We have America. What would we replace it WITH, as it stands right now, this moment in history, today, the here and now? We criticize everything. We hate this and we hate that. And for every good thing we talk about there are a hundred things wrong.
But what would we replace America WITH, right this second?
So to climb back down off my soap box, I say again that any notion of complete and unfettered freedom is an illusion and cannot be. It never has been and never will be, as long as rules are needed to protect the few from the many and the many from themselves. Laws are actually enacted to protect ourselves from ourselves.
To keep this somewhat about horse racing, now, to return to the original post here in this thread, any run-in type of contest with the IRS will not be a photo finish. To the OP, be very careful, and you already know this, about winning and saying you lost; the IRS loves to get into that kind of stuff. I would not want them to have them set their sights on you.

[Irish Boy]

Sorry, that snark was reserved for Jonnielu, not the gentleman who posted above mine.Don't get into a peeing match with him, dcb. He's a loon.

[dcb188]

Irish Boy: No matches :) He will be all set. Unlimited freedom is just an illusion, like the water on the highway in the distance on a hot day.

[YokohamaMary]

The King must eat so watch your hands.

[dcb188]

Hmm

[jonnielu]

jonnielu: Bear with me just a moment. Focus for a second on this country. You were born here, therefore you are subject to this country's laws, same as if you had been born in Italy you would be conducting yourself according to the laws of Italy right now.
With all its faults and failings, compare the United States with any other country in the world as far as freedom is concerned. Not unlimited freedom, for no one has the unlimited right to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, or do do illegal things because they feel like it, but the real meaning of the word "freedom". Granted that America does not have absolute freedom, but it comes ahead of whatever is in second place worldwide today.
Now take your eyes off of this country and our century and go back into time. What you find in history is no country, no jurisdiction, no place the equal of what we have today in America re freedom. Ancient Rome? Ancient Greece? Empires, dictatorships, kings, queens.
So neither today nor yesterday, and certainly not around the world that we know today, will we find the equal of the United States and what it does for its citizens.

Take two examples of many. Our jury system, and eyewitness testimony.
Our jury system is flawed, but I would rather be judged by 6 or 12 than by a cynical judge by himself or herself.
Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable kind of evidence that there is. Yet what would we replace it with? Hearsay? Out of court written statements by strangers to the case?
We have America. What would we replace it WITH, as it stands right now, this moment in history, today, the here and now? We criticize everything. We hate this and we hate that. And for every good thing we talk about there are a hundred things wrong.
But what would we replace America WITH, right this second?
So to climb back down off my soap box, I say again that any notion of complete and unfettered freedom is an illusion and cannot be. It never has been and never will be, as long as rules are needed to protect the few from the many and the many from themselves. Laws are actually enacted to protect ourselves from ourselves.
To keep this somewhat about horse racing, now, to return to the original post here in this thread, any run-in type of contest with the IRS will not be a photo finish. To the OP, be very careful, and you already know this, about winning and saying you lost; the IRS loves to get into that kind of stuff. I would not want them to have them set their sights on you.

Hey Dave,

Just to keep it short, I'm sure that you are happy with what you believe, just as I am. The country that you know exists, just the same as mine does. No one is forced to choose, and neither is really imposed against anyone's will. If it were up to me to replace anything, which it is not, I would replace the United States with America, because I find that the distinctions are quite devisive. Personally, I find little value in the division of people, but must recognize that they do choose different things.

Of course, the choices that I have made in my life have been in accordance with what is important to me, just as the choices you have made. No one said a word about obtaining total unfettered freedom.

I was only interested in being able to excercise the amount that I was supposed to have, and that is the extent of the accomplishment. Freedom is something that people tend to trade off in an effort to get what they understand to be fairness. In so doing, it seems to me that people tend to have less of both. But, the judgement is theirs to make.

jdl

jdl

[Tom]

I have always thought the the tax on pari-mutual gambling is "double taxation" --you are not winning from the track --you are winning from other people hwo have alreadry paid taxes to get the money they are playing with....

I really want to agree with this....really want to.
But I can see theother side of the coin - if you take money you earn and pay taxes on, then invest it in the market and make aprofit, you get taxed on that.

Please...convince me I am wrong. I want to be wrong. ;):D

[jonnielu]

Back here on planet earth:

I don't want to get into a "who's is bigger" match, but suffice it to say that I have enough expertise on the matter to say that 1.) It would be tax fraud, 2.) The chances you would get away with it are fairly high, but 3.) the penalty if you didn't succeed would be severe. Yes, Congress does have authority over you. Sucks, I agree, but it's a legal fact. Declaring something that is not true is fraud. The IRS does not catch all fraud- not by a long shot- but they will make it a living hell for those whom it does catch to discourage others. Either report the winnings, bet enough longshots to show that you can get back to having a losing season, or commit fraud and live the next seven years hoping no one in DC or your state of residence decides to go over your tax forms for any reason, or that you make any other mistakes on your taxes that would require an audit.

Good one!

That might keep them from finding out anything for themselves, which is all I'm saying. You wouldn't want them to figure out how Congress brought them into its jurisdiction. Just tell them that they are there and urge them to pay up. Or else:lol:

Hopefully, they will never start wondering why you need to issue the "Or else" part inceasantly.

jdl

[jonnielu]

I really want to agree with this....really want to.
But I can see theother side of the coin - if you take money you earn and pay taxes on, then invest it in the market and make aprofit, you get taxed on that.

Please...convince me I am wrong. I want to be wrong. ;):D

Tom,

Why do you owe money, because you went out and earned some money. The people that didn't go out and earn some money owe nothing?

Why do you supposedly pay the expenses of government in accordance with the amount you earn, rather then according to the expenses of government?

While Congress is able to simply borrow money at their whimsy, and that act puts you in debt, how do you ever get the government by the people, that you wrote the Constitution for?

Perhaps, someone with vast expertise can explain. I have a few ideas, but I'm a loon, running around free in America.

jdl

[MYKE]

You can declare losing up to your winnings for the federal taxes--no problem---but keep back up to show losing tickets or whatever in case your audited.

The tax that will get you and no way around it is state taxes. You'll pay on winnings without any allowance for losers.

[skate]

I really want to agree with this....really want to.
But I can see theother side of the coin - if you take money you earn and pay taxes on, then invest it in the market and make aprofit, you get taxed on that.

Please...convince me I am wrong. I want to be wrong. ;):D

I'm sure you are on top here Tom, the Market does have an advantage with the lose carry over.

But the player has a plus also, since he doesn't need to pay up until 600/1.
A $20 bet has no tax until winning $12000.

Many (:D ) just do not take what is given, seems...