do really care if a country is free?

[acorn54]

anyone ever wonder why we don't mind that china who we do so much business with is not a democracy?

[Overlay]

1. They have nuclear weapons, which limits military options on our part.

2. If they're exposed to the freedom and benefits of capitalism long enough and broadly enough, coupled with the inefficiencies of continuing to exercise centralized economic and political control over a country that large in an era of instantaneous global communication, the system will collapse from within, as it did in the USSR and elsewhere.

[acorn54]

we can simply employ trade sanctions like in cuba
why do we have trade sanctions against cuba and not china
simply put it's all about money

[Shenanigans]

anyone ever wonder why we don't mind that china who we do so much business with is not a democracy?

Because we don't live there.

[Overlay]

we can simply employ trade sanctions like in cuba
why do we have trade sanctions against cuba and not china
simply put it's all about money

You're right. Cuba can't supply the volume of inexpensive labor in support of American companies, or the market for American goods, that China can. But it's the continued engagement in that commerce with China that will contribute to the system's eventual collapse, without generating the internal hostility toward the US that sanctions would cause.

[46zilzal]

anyone ever wonder why we don't mind that china who we do so much business with is not a democracy?
Out of sight, out of mind....the old saying is as good today as it ever was.

[Suff]

Because we don't live there.


Apply that logic to our overall foreign policy.:lol:


The answer to the question asked is money of course.

Wal-Mart and many other corporations have teams of MBA's fanned out across America with turn key international outsourcing strategies.

I've always found it curious how the Communist haters of the world walk into Wal-Mart and spend money. 70% of everything for sale in Wal Mart is made in China and 6% of every dollar spent in Wal-Mart funds the Chinese Red Army.


But hey, glib answers like we don't live there don't require these basic calculations. We don't live there, I believe, was the original argument made by a group of third graders.

[skate]

Because we don't live there.


Oh, that's good, Shenny...

[delayjf]

I've always found it curious how the Communist haters of the world walk into Wal-Mart and spend money. 70% of everything for sale in Wal Mart is made in China and 6% of every dollar spent in Wal-Mart funds the Chinese Red Army.

Agreed, 100%, that's why I won't shop there.

[skate]

Apply that logic to our overall foreign policy.:lol:


ut hey, glib answers like we don't live there don't require these basic calculations. We don't live there, I believe, was the original argument made by a group of third graders.


Let's go high tec, enough glibbers type Huh? Get really complaisant and conclude "it's about money".

Then if we have None ($) we can say "Not my Fault".:eek:

I'm trying to figure, when Suffer says "basic Calculations" does this indicate a good thing or a bad thing?:bang:

[riskman]

But hey, glib answers like we don't live there don't require these basic calculations. We don't live there, I believe, was the original argument made by a group of third graders.

At least the third graders have not been corrupted like the entire Chinese system.

China's corruption ranges from top Party officials to local Party bosses. Bribery and personal enrichment is the system that China has followed for thousands of years. The onset of Communism did not alter this traditional practice. In fact, it made it easier.

China is the most dangerous threat the US and the west faces in the long term. No concept of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) will suffice to stop China if it sees war as a last ditch effort to stay in control of its own, vast population.

And if we are to take China's military establishment for granted, it plans to do just that.

[skate]

Ha Ha ha, oh this is good, I (the-skate) am a big fan of the China people and their country.


I am not at all sure about the Gov.(china), but then i'm not sure about our gov. either.

As a mater of fact this makes for an interesting Olympic game.

"Go China", sayeth the-skate.;)

[robert99]

At least the third graders have not been corrupted like the entire Chinese system.

China's corruption ranges from top Party officials to local Party bosses. Bribery and personal enrichment is the system that China has followed for thousands of years. The onset of Communism did not alter this traditional practice. In fact, it made it easier.

China is the most dangerous threat the US and the west faces in the long term. No concept of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) will suffice to stop China if it sees war as a last ditch effort to stay in control of its own, vast population.

And if we are to take China's military establishment for granted, it plans to do just that.

If you substitute "USA" for "China" and "232" for "thousands of", the above would make as much sense. China corruption is a regrettable 10% (Carnegie Institute). USA theft and embezzlement from businesses is estimated at about 10% - they won't admit the real figures. China hardly has a history as a warmongering nation but its huge output of top scientists, engineers and mathematicians will take them onto the next technological plane where the West cannot hope to even catch up let alone compete. That is what the politicians will never speak of nor even face up to.

[richrosa]

China hardly has a history as a warmongering nation but its huge output of top scientists, engineers and mathematicians will take them onto the next technological plane where the West cannot hope to even catch up let alone compete. That is what the politicians will never speak of nor even face up to.

In 1962 some internal to the Kennedy Administration thought it best to give up the space race to the Soviets since they already launched and orbited a man in space before we were even ready to get a man up there for 15 minutes. The Soviets announced their triumph boldly and told the world that socialism (actually Communism) would prevail and the space race would prove it.

Brave men in that administration and JFK himself (a Democrat, the old kind, not today's version) stood bold and said that freedom would dominate and decided to set goals for the United States that were more than lofty. Skilled men and women in this country, through a capitalistic system built the machines and technology which after a few setbacks that less braver men would have surrendered to, achieved Kennedy's goal long before the Soviets were even in the ballpark.

This was a chapter (with many chapters written by Ronald Reagan) in the long slide of Communism that eventually defeated the USSR.

History repeats itself. The United States, if ever truly threatened where our ideals of freedom might perish, this country would again unite and bury the anti-American parisians from within and yet again show the world that our way of life is ideal and the best for the enrichment of humankind.

China's system has no chance to outlive ours. They'll spend every waking moment trying to keep their people stupid via propaganda and censorship (sounds familiar!!). They'll look for victims to stand beside them. Eventually the avalanche will roll them over and tyranny will end. I'd say 10 years tops.

[JustRalph]

Great post Rich! Right on Target.

Robert99, you would fit in perfectly at UC Berkeley............

[DJofSD]

Robert99, you would fit in perfectly at UC Berkeley..........

Don't send him here, we've already got enough do-gooders. You can take him. Don't you still have Kent State in you backyard?

[Tom]

We should not be trading with China on any level.

[JustRalph]

Don't send him here, we've already got enough do-gooders. You can take him. Don't you still have Kent State in you backyard?

:lol: :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

anyone ever wonder why we don't mind that china who we do so much business with is not a democracy?I'm going to assume that your comments are based upon bringing Democracy to Iraq as one of the justifications of the invasion.

One of the reasons we don't mind that China is not a democracy is because China (as of yet) is not engaged in the act of flying airplanes deliberately into the heart of major US cities.

The 9/11 hijackers were of Middle-Eastern descent, and since we couldn't exactly go to war with Saudi Arabia (even though most of the terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis), we did the next best thing and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

Perhaps if the 9/11 hijackers WERE of Chinese descent, we would have invaded the Philippines in response.

[wonatthewire1]

I'm going to assume that your comments are based upon bringing Democracy to Iraq as one of the justifications of the invasion.

One of the reasons we don't mind that China is not a democracy is because China (as of yet) is not engaged in the act of flying airplanes deliberately into the heart of major US cities.

The 9/11 hijackers were of Middle-Eastern descent, and since we couldn't exactly go to war with Saudi Arabia (even though most of the terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis), we did the next best thing and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

Perhaps if the 9/11 hijackers WERE of Chinese descent, we would have invaded the Philippines in response.


But the Chinese are smarter than those that flew planes into the towers.

Much more effective to undermine and control an economy; plus you get the added benefit of collecting cash. And collecting interest. And owning hard assets like real estate, especially when the prices are discounted as they are now.

Your analysis is interesting. We actually don't mind that they aren't a democracy because we can buy stuff that we don't make cheaply. And we don't mind if no one else is a democracy unless they don't have our earl under their worthless sand - then it becomes a side-show to the black gold.

[richrosa]

I find it fascinating that many on the left cannot distinguish between Iraq who invaded and threatened its neighbors and lead the world to believe that they had weapons of mass destruction, Iraq who daily call for the destruction of an entire country and race of people, and China who have NOT invaded a neighbor, and despite some bellicose statements about Taiwan, have been at peace with everyone else in the world.

Yes, there is a difference between peaceful tyranny and the war mongering that passes for government policy in the Middle East. Personally, I like neither.

Oil has nothing to do with it, it never has. That's always been convenient propaganda.

[wonatthewire1]

Oil has nothing to do with it, it never has. That's always been convenient propaganda.


Whatever you've been smoking or drinking - let us know - must be really good stuff.

:lol:

[DJofSD]

and China who have NOT invaded a neighbor, and despite some bellicose statements about Taiwan, have been at peace with everyone else in the world.
Tibet doesn't count?

[Boats]

why do we have trade sanctions against cuba and not china
simply put it's all about money

It's strictly political. A small group of Miami cubans have the political power to keep the sanctions going. It's been 48 years. No party wants to piss off Florida. Can you imagine how different cuba would be today if we were free to travel and trade with cuba in the last 48 years. Look at Vietnam.

[ddog]

PA opines ....??
"The 9/11 hijackers were of Middle-Eastern descent, and since we couldn't exactly go to war with Saudi Arabia (even though most of the terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis), we did the next best thing and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq."

Why not, they and China are "behind" most of the money and groups over there.
Certainly Saudi would have been as much or more a cakewalk as Iraq???
NO???

By your lights we could have invaded any of 5-6 other ME countries as well?
Funny , we chose Iraq, funny indeed.

Afg, is of course, not in the same line of reasoning.

Seems obvious that the base of the attacks was from there , so to include it with Iraq is a needless blurring of the reasoning for the attacks.

Saudi would not need a war, but of course it seems their population may not want a democracy either.

You will find most of the AFG and Iraqi don't either.
Give it some time, you will see.


O and as to the original post, NO, unless the country offical gvt asks for our help then it's up to them to wage demo-warfare and the police actions on their behalf.

if we can "protect" humanitarian actions to assist then that's fine , but no demo-warfare from us.

Sending arms and training insurgents on behalf of "liberation" movements, that's ok.
Just don't piss and moan at the blow-back.


It was bad when we founded the place and it's bad now.

[Tom]

Whatever you've been smoking or drinking - let us know - must be really good stuff.

:lol:

Perhaps instead of hiding behind a :lol: you could address each point Rich made with some facts to dispute them?

And, oh, you can only use facts known at the time, not now.

Fire away........

[toetoe]

Those aforementioned ideals (life, liberty and property) are under fire constantly, and the lifestyle we are so willing to protect and export --- Jackinthebox, MegaMillions, Baywatch, Asskiss Hollywood and kitten-up-a-tree "journalism" --- perdures.

C'mon, Toesy, ya trippin.' :rolleyes: It's a free country, right ?

[acorn54]

no iraq wasn't what i was thinking about
if a country denies the democratic principals to it's peoples it seems unethical to do business with that country. it seems first and foremost that a people are free to express themselves and have people in power that are elected by the people. it seems money is placed before principals

[robert99]

In 1962 some internal to the Kennedy Administration thought it best to give up the space race to the Soviets since they already launched and orbited a man in space before we were even ready to get a man up there for 15 minutes. The Soviets announced their triumph boldly and told the world that socialism (actually Communism) would prevail and the space race would prove it.

Brave men in that administration and JFK himself (a Democrat, the old kind, not today's version) stood bold and said that freedom would dominate and decided to set goals for the United States that were more than lofty. to, achieved Kennedy's goal long before the Soviets were even in the ballpark.

This was a chapter (with many chapters written by Ronald Reagan) in the long slide of Communism that eventually defeated the USSR.

History repeats itself. The United States, if ever truly threatened where our ideals of freedom might perish, this country would again unite and bury the anti-American parisians from within and yet again show the world that our way of life is ideal and the best for the enrichment of humankind.

China's system has no chance to outlive ours. They'll spend every waking moment trying to keep their people stupid via propaganda and censorship (sounds familiar!!). They'll look for victims to stand beside them. Eventually the avalanche will roll them over and tyranny will end. I'd say 10 years tops.

A nice mix of Hollywood romanticism and delusion with the Rocket Boys.

"Skilled men and women in this country, through a capitalistic system built the machines and technology which after a few setbacks that less braver men would have surrendered"

Yes they were skilled they were mainly Germans (not all Americans) who worked for the Nazis then surrendered to the allies and Russia. The 'all American' Vanguard satellite launcher had blown up. It was nothing to do with capitalism it was hurt political pride that spurred USA on. They were then cast aside.

Russian totalitarianism, military voracity and internal security power struggles, low productivity in factories and on the land and stifling bureaucracy that killed USSR from within - it was absolutely nothing to do with USA. China is completely different and has made the breakthrough from anarchy into economic production and personal prosperity that USSR never made. They are trying to feed millions of people and that is their first thought. Chinese people understand the issues and largely accept the current system as a vast improvement on the past. Keeping the vast country from falling apart makes for draconian measures that the Republicans can only stand back and envy. Of course the two-party-state politicians in USA would never use propaganda or spin to fool their electorates, nor take any heed of big business demands that are not in any way advantageous to the well being and future of its citizens.

You are talking about a USA of some 50 years ago. The great industries have faded or been exported overseas, 80% now work in service industries and from what I read here and elsewhere half the country hates and despises the other half. They dodged the draft for Vietnam and there seems little chance of any national reconciliation to fight a common cause these days. I would think that USA may already be on a dangerous spiral of terminal decline. There seems no leadership on the horizon to make a halt to that.

"Von Braun led a group of 108 leading engineers who chose to surrender to the Americans. They moved the length of Germany to Oberammergau, and made contact with American forces on 2 May 1945. By 27 May they had directed the Americans to 14 tonnes of primary V-2 technical documentation they had hidden in the Harz Mountains as a bargaining chip. On 20 June Secretary of State Cordell Hull agreed they were to be brought to America and work for the US Army. By the end of the year the entire team was in Fort Bliss, Texas, preparing to fire 60 V-2's seized by the Americans on science and research flights. Post-war budget cuts meant ambitious plans to proceed with long-range missiles and orbital launchers were shelved. Some were disappointed - 29 of the team moved to private industry in the United States, 21 returned to Germany. A few new engineers were recruited from Germany, having stayed behind to complete war-interrupted education. But the Army kept the rest of the team together, moving them to Huntsville, Alabama, to work on development of the Redstone ballistic missile.

As the Cold War, and then the Space Race with the Soviet took off, the Americans found themselves on the losing side. The 'all American' Vanguard satellite launcher had blown up. The government reluctantly turned to the German rocket team. Von Braun's Redstone rocket put the first American satellite into orbit and then the first American astronaut into space. They were then charged with developing, in six years, the immense Saturn V booster to take the first American to the moon. After having won the moon race for the Americans, Von Braun found his usefulness at an end. There was no American interest in his lifelong dream of mounting a manned expedition to Mars. It is alleged that President Nixon secretly ordered a purge of the Germans from NASA, and the Peenemuende veterans found themselves sidelined into other jobs or pressured into early retirement."

[Tom]

But at least we aren't BRITTISH!

[wonatthewire1]

Perhaps instead of hiding behind a :lol: you could address each point Rich made with some facts to dispute them?

And, oh, you can only use facts known at the time, not now.

Fire away........


without earl, there is nothing to really care abt in the middle east - unless you like sand and windstorms - maybe camels

...& I "guess" you didn't notice that most of the rest of his comment was fine, I carved out the ridiculous part of it - spot on otherwise.

Carry on and Cheerio ol' matey

[wonatthewire1]

no iraq wasn't what i was thinking about
if a country denies the democratic principals to it's peoples it seems unethical to do business with that country. it seems first and foremost that a people are free to express themselves and have people in power that are elected by the people. it seems money is placed before principals


you might want to check your clothes in your closet, plenty of totalitarian wear in your own house perhaps?

[Shenanigans]

Apply that logic to our overall foreign policy.:lol:


The answer to the question asked is money of course.

Wal-Mart and many other corporations have teams of MBA's fanned out across America with turn key international outsourcing strategies.

I've always found it curious how the Communist haters of the world walk into Wal-Mart and spend money. 70% of everything for sale in Wal Mart is made in China and 6% of every dollar spent in Wal-Mart funds the Chinese Red Army.


But hey, glib answers like we don't live there don't require these basic calculations. We don't live there, I believe, was the original argument made by a group of third graders.

Re-read the first post. My post isn't necessarily my point of view. Unfortunately, it is a lot of folks (out there) point of view.

And do kind sir, point me to a store with nothing but American made products. I do not shop Walmart, but unfortunately, most of the clothing stores I do shop hardly ever had a "Made in USA" tag in them. What shall I do? Go naked???

[The Judge]

Why is it O.K to do business with China but I can't travel to Cuba and buy so Cuban cigars and lay in the sun 90 miles away?

[richrosa]

A nice mix of Hollywood romanticism and delusion with the Rocket Boys.


The US did not triumph in the space race?


Yes they were skilled they were mainly Germans (not all Americans) who worked for the Nazis then surrendered to the allies and Russia. The 'all American' Vanguard satellite launcher had blown up. It was nothing to do with capitalism it was hurt political pride that spurred USA on. They were then cast aside.


Yes, many of the rocket scientists were German, but unlike the USSR they were free to leave the country, or do another job anytime they wanted. They were NOT forced to work for NASA. These men, especially Von Braun, became Americans and stayed fiercely loyal to the country that wanted to use their technology for peaceful purposes. Ask the people of Huntsville, AL how the felt about their German turned American counterparts and you'll hear how proud they were of them.


Russian totalitarianism, military voracity and internal security power struggles, low productivity in factories and on the land and stifling bureaucracy that killed USSR from within - it was absolutely nothing to do with USA. China is completely different and has made the breakthrough from anarchy into economic production and personal prosperity that USSR never made. They are trying to feed millions of people and that is their first thought. Chinese people understand the issues and largely accept the current system as a vast improvement on the past. Keeping the vast country from falling apart makes for draconian measures that the Republicans can only stand back and envy. Of course the two-party-state politicians in USA would never use propaganda or spin to fool their electorates, nor take any heed of big business demands that are not in any way advantageous to the well being and future of its citizens.


Now who is being romantic? You obviously love the Chinese system.


You are talking about a USA of some 50 years ago. The great industries have faded or been exported overseas, 80% now work in service industries and from what I read here and elsewhere half the country hates and despises the other half. They dodged the draft for Vietnam and there seems little chance of any national reconciliation to fight a common cause these days. I would think that USA may already be on a dangerous spiral of terminal decline. There seems no leadership on the horizon to make a halt to that.


Liberals have been promising the decline of the USA for at least the last 100 years. Its difficult to understand the American concept and the drive of free peoples, especially when it is clouded by our educational and media institutions. In the end Americans are resilient, and will invent, build, and make whatever it is we need to assure and protect our way of life. I'm sorry that you cannot be part of our idea. It must be sad waiting for your freedom to be zapped by some elitist ruler. Sad indeed.

[PaceAdvantage]

Certainly Saudi would have been as much or more a cakewalk as Iraq???That was only part of the reasoning for going into Iraq and Afghanistan.

By your lights we could have invaded any of 5-6 other ME countries as well?
Funny , we chose Iraq, funny indeed.Funny how? Iraq was a no-brainer option, given the recent history between the two countries. Hell, need I post this video AGAIN?

_1q9Q0OtJ4g

Afg, is of course, not in the same line of reasoning.

Seems obvious that the base of the attacks was from there , so to include it with Iraq is a needless blurring of the reasoning for the attacks.OBVIOUS HOW? How do you know anything about Afghanistan except for WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU? THIS SAME GOVERNMENT YOU ACCUSE OF LYING ABOUT ALMOST EVERYTHING ELSE, FROM GDP NUMBERS TO GOD KNOWS WHAT? So, you'll conveniently buy what it sells you about Afghansitan, but not about Iraq or a handful of other matters? You're one funny DOG!

[DJofSD]

Liberals have been promising the decline of the USA for at least the last 100 years.

And they deliver on that promise every chance they get.

[Tom]

Iraq violated the terms of cease fire from the Gulf war by firing upon US Air Force planes. As I have said before, that fact alone justified the invasion- nothing else mattered.

Afghanistan was a no-brainer.

So would Pakistan have been, but apparently if wasn't for some of our no-brainer leaders.

[richrosa]

Funny how? Iraq was a no-brainer option, given the recent history between the two countries. Hell, need I post this video AGAIN?


An excellent video. It speaks for itself. It has the whole cast and leaves no one out.

[ddog]

That was only part of the reasoning for going into Iraq and Afghanistan.

Funny how? Iraq was a no-brainer option, given the recent history between the two countries. Hell, need I post this video AGAIN?

_1q9Q0OtJ4g

OBVIOUS HOW? How do you know anything about Afghanistan except for WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU? THIS SAME GOVERNMENT YOU ACCUSE OF LYING ABOUT ALMOST EVERYTHING ELSE, FROM GDP NUMBERS TO GOD KNOWS WHAT? So, you'll conveniently buy what it sells you about Afghansitan, but not about Iraq or a handful of other matters? You're one funny DOG!



Pa

I say this kindly, but you are off your rocker.
Please post where I have said the gvt has lied about gdp figures.

There is a difference in how they were measured along with most other stats, that's not lying , that's using different measures from the recent past , even 2001.
You have so many other things to do with the web site and such that you don't seem to care what you spew in this regard.
Just drop it ok.


As to my sources of info, maybe you should shut it down on those as well, since you don't have a clue.

Or maybe you could detail my sources here so I could see if you have them about right.

As to your insipid linking to this video who gives a damn what they have to say, they have about as much cred as you in that regard.

At least you have not been bought off explictly as far as I know.

As to Iraq, if they become in five ten or 20 years a functional democracy so called and an example for same in the ME then the whole deal has been about worth it.

I don't see that in the cards, but could be wrong.

So check back in a few years and see if you still hold the same opinion.


if we invaded every country that violated UN sanctions which none of you cons care about in any other sense we would be busy little beavers indeed.

hypos all.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh my, the insults and personal attacks. I don't ever recall spewing names at you. I never even labeled you a goon...you did that to yourself.

Anyway, allow me to rephrase the question:

Seems obvious that the base of the attacks was from there , so to include it with Iraq is a needless blurring of the reasoning for the attacks. How is this obvious? Because the gubmint said so?

[PaceAdvantage]

As to your insipid linking to this video who gives a damn what they have to say, they have about as much cred as you in that regard.A lot of people give a damn, actually. Unless it gets too inconvenient, like when videos like this keep popping up.

[highnote]

The people at Stratfor do a good job of explaining the geopolitical situations around the world. Here's a good piece on russia/china...

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/china_and_russia_s_geographic_divide

And this piece is just about China:

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/chinese_geopolitics_and_significance_tibet

[Suff]

Let's go high tec
, enough glibbers
type Huh? Get really complaisant and conclude "it's about money".



Wal-Mart has MBA's fanned out across America with turn key international outsourcing strategies
.


Did you need me to amplify on this? What did you need it to be so that its not glib? The other 50 companies doing the same thing? The fact that China controls 4 trillion US Dollars and could sink us tomorrow if they unloaded them on the open market. Do you need a breakdown of the child labor that is doing the jobs previously done by blue collar Americans? What part of the Wal-mart example was lacking the entire implied point of the example?



You can cut-n-paste economic stats all you want Skate. The fact is that your a six ounce cup of coffee. It does not matter how much coffee one pours into you, you only hold six ounces. The sooner you realize that, and work with what the good Lord gave you instead of spilling yourself all over the place, the better for all. You have a six ounce maximum output.

[Secretariat]

Agreed, 100%, that's why I won't shop there.

Well, surprise, we share common ground on this one.

[Secretariat]

Liberals have been promising the decline of the USA for at least the last 100 years.

Have you checked the median wage versus inflation since GW took office, or how the Euro has grown in value over the last eight years while the dollar has tumbled? Have you seen the continued retreat of our auto industry, the ballooning of gasoline and oil prices? THe increase in bankrupticies and foreclosures - this desptie making it even more difficult to get out of bankruptcy.

I'll admit it feels more patriotic to say we're the greatest country in the world, but we're slipping Richrosa, and slipping badly. Our preoccupation with foreign wars and other countries democracy, our policies of rewarding countries that ship jobs overseas, our underestimating the resilency of other countries, our worship of globalization that places it's prominence on lower wages at the cost of good jobs for Americans is having its impact. Henry Ford paid his workers fabulous wages because he stated, "I need my workers making enough to buy these cars." That philosophy has changed to "if we get the cheapest possible labor avaialble from other countries, that will lower the prices, expedite our profits, and allow us to sell cheaply." Problem is you take away worker's pride of craftmanship, they buy products from abroad that used to be made here, and they lack the security of working long term on a job they take pride in. It creates embitterment about foreginers that are taking American jobs away, and shames us that we buy products made in communist countries for slave or indentured wage status.

As James Kavannaugh the poet said, "I love America, but not like I used to." He wasn't talking about patriotism, but dissapointment in the bad decisions made by this country in servitide to the almighty buck that sometimes makes us stray from truly providing pride and hope for all our citizens.

[PaceAdvantage]

The fact is that your a six ounce cup of coffee. It does not matter how much coffee one pours into you, you only hold six ounces. The sooner you realize that, and work with what the good Lord gave you instead of spilling yourself all over the place, the better for all. You have a six ounce maximum output.
You've become the Don Rickles of off-topic. Add "Put-Down King" to your list of titles!

[richrosa]

I'll admit it feels more patriotic to say we're the greatest country in the world, but we're slipping Richrosa, and slipping badly.


I'm sorry you feel that way.


Have you checked the median wage versus inflation since GW took office, or how the Euro has grown in value over the last eight years while the dollar has tumbled? Have you seen the continued retreat of our auto industry, the ballooning of gasoline and oil prices? THe increase in bankrupticies and foreclosures - this desptie making it even more difficult to get out of bankruptcy.


Rather than argue this (which I'm not opposed to doing), let me ask you question instead.

What are your precious liberal Democrats going to do that is going to fix the problems that you mention?

Lets take the argument from there.

[Tom]

Gee Sec, we faced a friggin CIVAL WAR and survived. Brother against brother,
the assasination of our president, carpet baggers, the reformation of the Union.

I think stacked up next to $4 gas, which is dropping, we are not too bad off right now.

Our essence as a nation and a people is not a line item on a balance sheet. Those are just events that a great nation and a great people deal with as a matter of routine.

Oh yee of little faith.

[Secretariat]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Rather than argue this (which I'm not opposed to doing), let me ask you question instead.

What are your precious liberal Democrats going to do that is going to fix the problems that you mention?

Lets take the argument from there.

Not as much as I would hope.

First, however, I would hope they would retreat from the preemptive polciy of going into foreign wars to create democracies. Not that the intent isn't honorable, but it is simply not feasibly financially for our country as it continues to retreat economically.

Second, I beleive the last eight years have seen a larger disparity of wealth between rich and poor, and the middle class has suffered as well. One simply has to look at the Government's own Bureau of Labor and Statistics to see the inabiltiy of the median wage to keep up with inflation over the last eight years. I would hope they would attempt to go back to implementing a more progressive tax system that was intended when the IRS was put into place.

Third, we cannot get anywhere until the worship of globalization is stemmed. We need much more stringent trade rules. The american worker cannot keep competing without lower his standard of living with slaves and indentured servants wages in other countries. Personally, I'd rather do without a lot of stuff, and pay more and rebuild a pride in buying American for awhile, so I am protectionist in some ways. I'm not against free and fair trade, but we don't have that now. We have free trade which simply means you can crate slaves and sell your products cheaper than ours. I also have serious issues with trading with regimes that promote communism. Making China our biggest trading partner is offensive to me. I would demand even stronger trading requirments with countires such as these. Ever since Nixon opened that slippery slope during the Vietnam War it has continued to get worse. That nation is a direct and real military threat to us, andwe make the nation wealthier and wealthier.

Four, the bankruptcy threat is a lack of fiscal reponsibility. This may be the most immediate threat to us. I beleive sincerely in a balanced budget amendment except in extreme cases such as WW 2.

Five, energy and moving off of oil and protecting the environment.

I think Dem's could do a better job on numbers one and two and five than Repubs. Three and Four will take real leadership, and I think it'll take an exceptional leader to push for those. I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime.

I beleive the Republicans have had eight years to make progress, and thet simply haven't. it's time for a change.

Saying that, I am voting for McCain because I beleive the next President will face worse than we've seen economically, and will bear the brunt of this admisntration's failed polcies dramatically. I choose McCain becasue I think McCain or Obama will not be ableto make significant progress in items 1-5 above. So whoever the President is he will face public repercussions and blame. I beleive another Republican Presideent may very well lead to years of Democrat majorities as their favorite programs such as Medicare and Soc. Security are significantly cut, and the price of items increases, and the dollar continues to lose value while we are quagmired in Iraq and Afghanistan. I also beleive there is a chance we may face another cirses over the next four years as we attmept to recover from this mess. So I urge posters to vote for MCcain.

And Tom, the Civil War took a heavy toll on this country and some peopel are still trying to get over it. Of course, I beleive the country will survive, I just think you'e going to have a massive amount of unhappy people over the next four years facing dire econmic times.