Cost of entry is too high

[Versajoe]

As I'm sure is obvious, I'm new to horse racing. I live about two hours from the nearest harness track - and even farther from a thoroughbred track. Needless to say, it only makes sense for me to use ADW.

The biggest problem I've noticed with horse racing is the cost of entry. The industry is really shooting itself in the foot when it comes to enticing new players.

Nobody wants to start big. With an online poker site, you can play for free or for extremely low stakes. Other than your gambling capital, it costs nothing to start playing. If you don't want to learn by playing low stakes games, you can learn by observing other players. There is no fee for this.

Now let's look at horse racing...

No beginner should be betting every race at a track. But the programs... they're going to cost you. If I want to bet $5 for a horse to win in just one or two races, is it really worth $2-$4 for a program. Nope. I suppose I could get an unlimited subscription, but I'd have to make several hundred dollars worth of bets each month for that to make financial sense.

I want to learn. I want to see how my picks worked out. I want to see the race, rather than just infer from a chart. Live video? It's spotty at best, and if you're a low level bettor, it's going to cost you. Hello subscription fees!

Do you want past performance charts? Pay up!

I have no problem with companies making money. The DRF deserves to turn a profit. However, there should be some sort service given to people who are just starting out. EVERY track should offer free video. EVERY track should offer free programs - maybe not with as much content as a full program, but at least enough content to make a somewhat informed bet.

As it stands now, if you want the tools you need, you have to go in full bore. This discourages a lot of casual players that would someday become something more than casual.

The tracks are using a 1970s business model in an internet world.

Compare that to internet poker/casino sites, and you can see why the tracks are struggling.

[BW~!]

At twinspires.com you get free PP's if you make a $2 wager. They allow small deposits via Debit/Credit Card. I am a small bettor and I enjoy it. Free video as well.

http://whobet.blogspot.com/ has links to free PP's on the calender at the bottom of the site. You can also use the links on this page http://www.pacefigures.com/freePPs.html. You can almost get the full card for some tracks. But there are plenty of freebies for practice.

Good Luck.

[Versajoe]

Unfortunately, Twinspires requires you to bet $50 in the last 5 days (somewhat simplified) to get access to video. I know they are not vigilant about it, but I'm nervous they will start enforcing this.

When tracks started, they were competing at best with state lotteries that took at least 50%.

Now the competition is fierce, with casinos, online poker, etc. I just don't see how tracks have changed their model to reflect this. It seems like the only response is to get slots. If the slots can pay for the races, why can't they pay for video and PPs?

[cj's dad]

The program info at the trax has been compiled and printed out, ergo there is a cost involved and the subsequent profit margin is a foregone conclusion.

Now, lets look at Casinos-what type of program would youl like- one that touts the roulette wheel and shows the numbers arrangement and what #'s hit last thursday? or would you like to know what has been the ROI on the $1 slot machine #1605 in the same time frame that you are about to play in?

Respectfully, what you are saying makes no sense. The tracks publish info for your use-take it or leave it. The casinos have no info to publish; they will get their $$ no matter what the circumstances. casinos are mindless gambling to a degree- betting the horses based on available info is not.

[Marlin]

The program info at the trax has been compiled and printed out, ergo there is a cost involved and the subsequent profit margin is a foregone conclusion.

Now, lets look at Casinos-what type of program would youl like- one that touts the roulette wheel and shows the numbers arrangement and what #'s hit last thursday? or would you like to know what has been the ROI on the $1 slot machine #1605 in the same time frame that you are about to play in?

Respectfully, what you are saying makes no sense. The tracks publish info for your use-take it or leave it. The casinos have no info to publish; they will get their $$ no matter what the circumstances. casinos are mindless gambling to a degree- betting the horses based on available info is not.Exactly. Who says you have to buy a program to bet a horse? Even the dumbest of the dumb can realize horses have numbers. If you want to get cute and handicap it it will cost you more. Don't forget if you want to play poker online you have to buy a computer and pay for internet service.

[alhattab]

I think Versajoe is right. First if distributed electronically cost is much lower. Second if you're playing small the live game is cost prohibitive. You're out $5-$10 for the benefit of playing a stake of say $30-$50? Back in the day you could pick up the paper and it would have selections but even that is moving towards extinction.

If I ran the tracks I would include a "basic" program in the admission cost. Maybe a few lines of pps and career information but that's it. Maybe only career info- sort of a juiced up verson of the old pocket programs. I also would offer free admissions/programs for every $x bet. Of course you'd need tracking devices which are already prevalent but not really with the lower-scale bettors.

We all started playing small and I think ideas to get small players involved so they hopefully turn into big ones are good.

[chickenhead]

The program info at the trax has been compiled and printed out, ergo there is a cost involved and the subsequent profit margin is a foregone conclusion.

Considering the data is a prerequisite to bet the horses, and considering the tracks make their money from people betting the horses, does it really make any sense at all to charge people for the data? Why not give away the prerequisite, the data and the video, and get it as broadly distributed as possible, so you can make more money on the business generated by it?

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free



In its first year, 1903, Gillette sold a total of 51 razors and 168 blades. Over the next two decades, he tried every marketing gimmick he could think of. He put his own face on the package, making him both legendary and, some people believed, fictional.

He sold millions of razors to the Army at a steep discount, hoping the habits soldiers developed at war would carry over to peacetime. He sold razors in bulk to banks so they could give them away with new deposits ("shave and save" campaigns). Razors were bundled with everything from Wrigley's gum to packets of coffee, tea, spices, and marshmallows.

The freebies helped to sell those products, but the tactic helped Gillette even more. By giving away the razors, which were useless by themselves, he was creating demand for disposable blades. A few billion blades later, this business model is now the foundation of entire industries: Give away the cell phone, sell the monthly plan; make the videogame console cheap and sell expensive games; install fancy coffeemakers in offices at no charge so you can sell managers expensive coffee sachets.



From the consumer's perspective, though, there is a huge difference between cheap and free. Give a product away and it can go viral. Charge a single cent for it and you're in an entirely different business, one of clawing and scratching for every customer. The psychology of "free" is powerful indeed, as any marketer will tell you.

This difference between cheap and free is what venture capitalist Josh Kopelman calls the "penny gap." People think demand is elastic and that volume falls in a straight line as price rises, but the truth is that zero is one market and any other price is another. In many cases, that's the difference between a great market and none at all.

[podonne]

Considering the data is a prerequisite to bet the horses, and considering the tracks make their money from people betting the horses, does it really make any sense at all to charge people for the data? Why not give away the prerequisite, the data and the video, and get it as broadly distributed as possible, so you can make more money on the business generated by it?

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free

Gillette's an easy example whenever the argument it to give away half of a product to get people to buy the other half, and there are countless more examples. But, that's doesn't prove that this would be true at the racetrack.

My guess is, if you went to the track to gamble, you would be willing to spend some small percentage of your expected handle to get some additional information. If this information were free, your handle would increase by only that small percentage, and the track would lose money in the tradeoff. If you go to the track, but don't want to gamble, you aren't going to suddenly want to do so because the information is free.

In other words, there is a certain level of supply and a certain level of demand for the information in a program, and for the average person who goes to the track to gamble, those levels even out at about $5. And to hijack your point, if you aren't there to gamble, you wouldn't pay even a penny for that info.

[podonne]

The tracks are using a 1970s business model in an internet world.

Compare that to internet poker/casino sites, and you can see why the tracks are struggling.

Hi Versajoe. I shared your frustration when I started. Best I found was tsn where you can get unlimited current programs for $60 a month.

The thing you have the remember when comparing tracks to casinos is that casinos don't have to distribute "information" to get you to play. Tracks do, and what you may not realize is that in order for the track to get that info to include it in a program, they have to pay... Equibase. I'd be suprised to hear that they make a lot of money on programs, if any at all.

The gathering and processing of information is what makes this game different from the casinos, and information isn't cheap.

[chickenhead]

My guess is, if you went to the track to gamble, you would be willing to spend some small percentage of your expected handle to get some additional information. If this information were free, your handle would increase by only that small percentage, and the track would lose money in the tradeoff. If you go to the track, but don't want to gamble, you aren't going to suddenly want to do so because the information is free.

In other words, there is a certain level of supply and a certain level of demand for the information in a program, and for the average person who goes to the track to gamble, those levels even out at about $5. And to hijack your point, if you aren't there to gamble, you wouldn't pay even a penny for that info.

People who are interested in making money at the races, and playing on paper and trying out different strategies before they wager, are not necessarily going to trip over themselves to pay $1K+ (up to several times that) to get a year or mores worth of data to look at.

I can get all the basic data I want for free when it comes to sports betting, the stock market, etc. At some basic level, when you combine the relatively steep data costs, just for the extremely basic info, with the high takeout, at some level it just becomes completely non-competetive with other things one might be doing. So why even start, there are better, easier, cheaper options.

It's not about increasing my handle, it's about getting the guy who's handle just might go somewhere else instead. There is actually competition out there for that guy.

Free is guaranteed not to be too high a barrier to entry. $1 per track might well be too high. Lack of being able to easily find free video and replays, a barrier to entry. The need for multiple ADW accounts, a barrier to entry. The tax regs, a barrier to entry.

Lots of barriers they've built up around this game.

Gillette is probably an outdated model, Google is much better. They give you just about anything they can think of for free, if they think it will cause people to use Google more, and therefore cause them to make more money, because it drives customers into their wheelhouse, serving ads.

The tracks make their money with their cut of the pools. They should be doing everything they can think of to drive money into the pools. The simple fact is, they don't really know what free data would do for business, because they've never had free data. I don't know to what degree it would help, but it would guarantee it would never be a barrier to entry. Considering all the barriers we know exist, removing a few might seem a pretty good idea, even if you're unsure of the return.

[Pace Cap'n]

The tracks have an ownership stake in Equibase.

[Robert Fischer]

racing needs to recruit the Virgin, reward the Simulcaster, and assualt the Trackgoer with coupons. :D

[David-LV]

How about that 10 or 12 dollars to park, 6 dollars for a hot dog, 8 dollars for a beer at Del Mar.

Why don't somebody tell them at Del Mar it is not the economy stupid, people are sick and tired getting robbed day in and day out.

________
David

[46zilzal]

Woodbine has the right idea: NO admission, Free parking

The old Las Veags move: get hem INSIDE to spend their money

[cj]

Woodbine has the right idea: NO admission, Free parking

The old Las Veags move: get hem INSIDE to spend their money

Yes, Woodbine gets you inside then rapes you with their obscene takeouts.

[thruncy]

Probably that it's a lot cheaper than a baseball, football, or basketball game.

[1st time lasix]

Understand....but if five or ten dollars is too much...you are likely playing without enough bankroll anyway. What is the old saying "scared money never wins!"

[chickenhead]

HANA does maintain a list of all live video and replays that are available for free. Still a few to be added, but mostly complete.

Free Live Video and Race Replays for all North American Race Tracks (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/08/live-video-links-for-north-american.html)

[DeanT]

Go to a restaurant tonight and ask to see a menu. If the waiter said "it'll cost you two bucks" you would tell they guy to go screw himself.

People have been telling racing to go screw themselves ever since the world changed and became more deflationary with the internet. This model needs to be fixed. It only works when you have a scarce good. Racings monopoly ended years ago and it is far from a scarce good.

[HEY DUDE]

Go to a restaurant tonight and ask to see a menu. If the waiter said "it'll cost you two bucks" you would tell they guy to go screw himself.

People have been telling racing to go screw themselves ever since the world changed and became more deflationary with the internet. This model needs to be fixed. It only works when you have a scarce good. Racings monopoly ended years ago and it is far from a scarce good.

Go to your local paper and you will probably find a list of races and horses entered for the day for free. Just like the menu. However, ask the waiter for the recipe for tonights dinner. You will get the menu but not the recipe. Just like horse racing, want more information, you are going to pay for it. Just like the stock market, you want more information like ratios and what not, you are going to pay for it. IMO apples are not being compared to apples in this thread. Just my two cents without any disrespect to anyone else posting here.

[DeanT]

Comparing racing to the stock market is exactly what I am talking about. In 1970 you could not even get a research report. They were hidden. You had to pay a broker.

MACD? Stochastics? Programming moving average alarms? Stop loss? All things that only the chosen few had. come 1997 the world changed and the stock market changed with it. With Schwab or Etrade you have order execution and bells and whistles on your computer in a home office. A stay at home mom in Dearborn MI is virtually on par with a Wall Street trader in terms of data and execution. What happened? Stock wagering exploded.

On the world's most successful gambling enterprise, Betfair, more wagers are handled in a year than on all the European stock indices combined. What did they do? Free data. You want thorograph? It's free. You want Tiimeform? They bought it. Free data is the cornerstone of their business and they have spent millions to get that free data to their players. They have grown from 10,000 customers to 1.2 million in seven years.

It is the 21st century. I can see with the click of a mouse what Green Bay's record is away from home in less than 20 degree weather from 1990-today. I can get research reports for stocks all free with the click of a mouse for $8 a trade. I can get poker hand histories at the click of a mouse. All those tools are there to encourage me to trade, bet football, or play poker.

Racing must address this issue. The deal made with Equibase/Trackmaster was made for a different time in a different world. The world has passed racing by and it will never grow unless they start acting like a competitive business, in a competitive gambling world. The monopoly is dead, and has been for years. Racing just hasnt seemed to be able to come to grips with that fact, and they better get off their asses and come to grips with it quick.

[JustRalph]

Go to your local paper and you will probably find a list of races and horses entered for the day for free.

I don't know what town you are in..........but I haven't seen racing entries or results for a while in Central ohio. Years in fact..........

[HEY DUDE]

I don't know what town you are in..........but I haven't seen racing entries or results for a while in Central ohio. Years in fact..........

Detroit dude. We get them for PNL and Hazel Park for Harnes.

[HEY DUDE]

I can get research reports for stocks all free with the click of a mouse for $8 a trade.

Not free. Is it. I do agree that it would be nice to get more for free. I play on twin spucks dot com. I get my PP's for free when I place a 2.00 dollar wager on the track I got the PP for. I guess that is kind of like your example above.

[Cangamble]

Go to your local paper and you will probably find a list of races and horses entered for the day for free. Just like the menu. However, ask the waiter for the recipe for tonights dinner. You will get the menu but not the recipe. Just like horse racing, want more information, you are going to pay for it. Just like the stock market, you want more information like ratios and what not, you are going to pay for it. IMO apples are not being compared to apples in this thread. Just my two cents without any disrespect to anyone else posting here.
I know for a fact that I am more prone to bet on races I get free forms for than ones I have to pay for.
The industry is dysfunctional and this is another main point. ADW's would be doing themselves a favour if they gave out free forms.
Of course, the cost comes into account.
As far as the stock market goes, all the ratios are pretty much available on line, including financials and news, etc.
Vegas got it right when they handed out free forms (not sure if they still do).

[alhattab]

Not free. Is it. I do agree that it would be nice to get more for free. I play on twin spucks dot com. I get my PP's for free when I place a 2.00 dollar wager on the track I got the PP for. I guess that is kind of like your example above.

My thoughts exactly. See what I wrote in post 6. For online that model works (although $2 seems awfully low). Ontrack I would do the same thing. Make people pay to get in (I never understood free admission- you get every societal dreg around hanging out there) but credit them for betting. You bet $25, next time you get in for free and get a program. This is not for people like many of us, who use more sophisticated tools. But it is for people that say inhabit the Monmouth Park picnic area and otherwise don't bet or bet very little. It gets people to the window and accustomed to playing the game

[Cangamble]

Free admission works well in Ontario. It is hard to tell the social dregs from the non social dregs:)

[DeanT]

Not free. Is it. I do agree that it would be nice to get more for free. I play on twin spucks dot com. I get my PP's for free when I place a 2.00 dollar wager on the track I got the PP for. I guess that is kind of like your example above.
Of course it is free. Get free data and Etrade gets $8 when you make a trade based on the data. Get free data and the track gets 20% of your bet.

The thing is when you make a $10,000 trade with Etrade you pay $8, when you make a $10,000 bet at Del Mar it costs you $2,100. All the more reason racing should be giving out free data.

[whyhorseofcourse]

Northfield closest track to me gives you 5 programs for $3. Whenever I go to mountianeer or any other track I stop at northfield, its on the way and it saves me about $10-$20 over a few days.

[DeanT]

it saves me about $10-$20 over a few days.
And it is an extra $20 to bet. If you rebet that 7 times as racing would lead you to believe you could you bet $140. At 21% blended rakes you contribute $29 to the track in commission. All for giving you a god darn free program for a pittance.

I have no idea how racing has even survived this long. Then again in real terms it has not. Our market share is absolutely horrid.

[Versajoe]

The intent of my original post was to point out how regressive the fees are to newcomers.

The comment that "maybe your bankroll is too small" just proves my point. Only an idiot is going to enter this hobby spending lots of money. Those who love action are going to gamble - whether or not there are fees. I'm talking about the casual player that wants to learn about the sport. Many of those players, if they are encouraged, will become steady players.

Horse racing is the only form of gambling that I'm aware of that has a prohibitive "cover charge." Let's say you go with $50. After you get a program, and pay for admission - you're down to $45. That's a 10% tax just for walking through the door and getting the minimal information you need to bet. When was the last time you saw a casino do that?

My only point was that this is regressive when it comes to attracting new people. It encourages players to bet too many races or too much. There is a problem with that system.

[HOY]

I agree with the author of this thread, but will take a slightly different angle, one that I often experience with the more casual fan, and usually off track.

I/we/whoever go to the track to watch a particular card, race, track, etc. A generalization, but your betting with 30 minute gaps between races. If you have pre-capped everything you have 30 minutes to kill between races (more on big race days where you see more casual fans).

I am often, make that always, wanting to pick up some action in the mean time. Sure, I could gamble it blind and get on average 80 cents back on the dollar, but knowing with the program I would have a better chance, i don't bet blind. But I also don't go buy a program to another track, b/c as soon as I do it will be a race I find no playable angle, and inevitably that track will get lined up with similar post times as the track I came for and I will skip a few of its races until it cycles away from the track I am focused on. If the information was free I would naturally have several tracks in front of me and probably bet 1-2 races between the main races I came to play.

I have gone to tracks, parlors, etc where you need to pay for each tracks program, and I have gone to similar places where all the info is free. Guess which one gets significantly more action from me????? I rarely go with a budget, i don't really care about the cost of the programs, but the story holds true time and time again.

My :2: cents

[Niko]

Well put. If I get a race or two free from a track I normally don't bet for a big race or feature day etc, I'll handicap it and more often than not bet it. If I had to go out of my way and pay for it, I wouldn't. I'd stick with my usual tracks.

Somewhat unrelated but on the same course as making it easier for customers. I know some people don't like the pictures in the track programs but the casual fans like it. My wife could care less if a horse is early speed etc but when it's accompanied by a picture of a hare, fox? or turtle she gets it and pays attention to it. All the hare's and foxes are winning, I'm not going to bet a turtle at low odds or there's a lot of hares in the race maybe a fox or turtle will do well. Well I tell her there's a lot of speed and they run faster than par I get this :sleeping: If it's the cute pictures, :kiss: Same with the other cute little pictures. It helps the casual fan. Anything to make it easier until they're ready to step up and really get involved if they so choose to.