The Stupidity of Government; The Nanny State

[JustRalph]

Anybody ever seen the movie Demolition Man? These idiots in LA are getting worse every day. They actually believe that this shit will work..............Amazing...............They will create a black market for Big Mac's and Taco Bell Burritos.............. :lol:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25896233/

L.A. wants to clamp yearlong ban on fast food
City Council to vote Tuesday on plan for impoverished southern part of city

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo/_new/080729-fastfood-vlrg-630a.widec.jpg

LOS ANGELES - In the impoverished neighborhood of South Los Angeles, fast food is the easiest cuisine to find — and that’s a problem for elected officials who see it as an unhealthy source of calories and cholesterol.

The City Council was meeting to vote Tuesday on a moratorium on new fast-food restaurants in a swath of the city where a proliferation of such eateries goes hand-in-hand with obesity.

“Our communities have an extreme shortage of quality foods,” City Councilman Bernard Parks said.

The aim of the yearlong moratorium, which was approved last week in committee, is to give the city time to try to attract restaurants that serve healthier food.

The California Restaurant Association says the moratorium, which could be extended up to two years, is misguided.

Fast food “is the only industry that wants to be in South LA,” said association spokesman Andrew Casana. “Sit-down restaurants don’t want to go in. If they did, they’d be there. This moratorium isn’t going to help them relocate.”

The proposed ban comes at a time when governments of all levels are increasingly viewing menus as a matter of public health. Last Friday, California became the first state in the nation to bar trans fats, which lowers levels of good cholesterol and increases bad cholesterol.

It also comes as the Los Angeles City Council tackles issues beyond safety, schools and streets. The council last week decided to outlaw plastic bags.

Fast-food restaurants have found themselves in the frying pan in a number of cities. Some places, including Carmel-by-the Sea and Calistoga, have barred “formula” restaurants altogether; others have placed a cap on them — Arcata allows a maximum of nine fast-food eateries; others have prohibited the restaurants in certain areas, such as Port Jefferson, N.Y., in its waterfront area.

That’s why the restaurant industry says it’s unfair to blame them for fat people.

“What’s next — security guards at the door saying ’You’re overweight, you can’t have a cheeseburger’?” Casana said.

But public health officials say obesity has reached epidemic proportions in low-income areas such as South Los Angeles and diet is the key reason.

~more at the link~

[JustRalph]

The people of LA must have heard about this story..............

They are so pissed the earth is shaking............ :lol:

[highnote]

The people of LA must have heard about this story..............

They are so pissed the earth is shaking............ :lol:


The problem of obesity is a big one (pardon the pun). This idea of banning fast foods is just a band-aid. Education is the key and it's a long term process. The obesity problem is not going to be fixed overnight. Perhaps tax breaks could be given to encourage healthy restaurants and produce sellers to set up shop in tough neighborhoods.

Something has to be done to encourage development in those neighborhoods. The people living there need local role models as well as jobs.

One thing about banning fast foods, it will draw media attention and perhaps this will jump start the process of working on improving these areas.

PS
I see a google ad for Lesbian Las Vegas. What is the connection between banning fast food in L.A. and Lesbians at the Paris Hotel in L.V.? I don't get it. I clicked refresh and saw a PaceAdvantage ad. ??????

[Tom]

The issue here is the governement has no place in the whole isse.
They are telling American citizens, with their hard earned money in their pockets, what they can and cannot buy with it. Arnold is a fascist, as is the danged FOOL mayor of NYC - a real Fascist.

I joked with Mac the other day - when do the mandatory push ups start?
Might not be a joke. The Iron Cutrain is descending. Arnold is lowering it.

[highnote]

The issue here is the governement has no place in the whole isse.
They are telling American citizens, with their hard earned money in their pockets, what they can and cannot buy with it. Arnold is a fascist, as is the danged FOOL mayor of NYC - a real Fascist.

I joked with Mac the other day - when do the mandatory push ups start?
Might not be a joke. The Iron Cutrain is descending. Arnold is lowering it.


Obesity is a social problem, so it may take help from the government to solve it. However, I don't think banning fast food is the answer.

I'm not even sure obesity is the major problem facing people in those neighborhoods.

One thing is certain, there are always going to be problems. Education and jobs will go a long way towards helping. Also, great leaders are needed. It's a tough cycle. Without good education it's tough to produce good leaders. You need a good tax base to pay for education. That means you need jobs so that a portion of businesses' and individuals' taxes go towards education.

[wonatthewire1]

The issue here is the governement has no place in the whole isse.
They are telling American citizens, with their hard earned money in their pockets, what they can and cannot buy with it. Arnold is a fascist, as is the danged FOOL mayor of NYC - a real Fascist.

I joked with Mac the other day - when do the mandatory push ups start?
Might not be a joke. The Iron Cutrain is descending. Arnold is lowering it.


Govt has no place in the whole issue?

Who do you think is confiscating your money to provide healthcare to these people?

Its worse when they are fat and old - and grabbing medicare till the money runs out, then go tap medicaid

nice circle

:bang:

[Secretariat]

If they'd get the abundance of sugar, salt, hydrogenated crap and damn high fructose corn syrup out of foods and sodas we'd all be healthier. Unfortunately, processed foods are made for longer shelf lives, and corporate profits, not for the health of the consumer. When people can't afford organic fruits and vegetables, and non-injected growth hormone meat, they turn to cheaper alternatives that set up a cycle of reliance on non-nutritional food. If government doesn't do something the free market won't do a damn thing about it unless it affects their profit margins.

[JustRalph]

Obesity is not a social problem............. it's a personal problem.

Each and every person is responsible. It's my fault I am 50 lbs overweight. Not anybody elses.

The Food Nazi's in the government are once again sticking their noses where they don't belong.

[Tom]

Organic fruits and verggies - that's the crap you pass over looking for the good stuff. :lol:

When does Big Brother make you eat your carrots?

Keep the damn government the hell out of my house.

[Tom]

Obesity is not a social problem............. it's a personal problem.

Each and every person is responsible. It's my fault I am 50 lbs overweight. Not anybody elses.

The Food Nazi's in the government are once again sticking their noses where they don't belong.

Ralph, you are talking personal responsibility.....many here are not familiar with that concept. Can you post a link? :rolleyes:




Fast food.....:p

[rastajenk]

Those damn corporations....if only they employed people in test labs that produced food that tasted like shit, we'd all be a lot better off. But nooooooooooo, they keep puttin' out the good stuff. Greedy bastards. :p

[JustRalph]

After spending 3 hours in the hot Sun at Lowes Motor Speedway tonight, I thought long and hard about this thread and stopped to eat here

http://fiveguys.com/

Best Damn Burger and Fries I can recall in many a year........!!!

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/09/19/images/tb-five.jpg

That is actually one of their burgers. Looks just like the one I had tonight. :ThmbUp:

[boxcar]

If government doesn't do something the free market won't do a damn thing about it unless it affects their profit margins.

So let me see if I have this right:The "free market" should assume responsibility for the state of our health -- for the kinds of foods we choose to eat? I thought consumers drove the free market. I wasn't aware that the free market was supposed to drive demand and control supply. Isn't this what the movie industry always tells us, when it comes under criticism for all the garbage it produces? Isn't the first refrain we hear from this industry: "Well, we're just giving the people what they want. We're supplying what the public is demanding." Isn't this right? Now, Sec, you're telling us that if the "free market" doesn't force its choices down the consumers' throats, then Big Gov has every right to do just that? Is this your idea of how a free society is supposed to work? You're perfectly okay with Big Gov "censoring" our eating habits, but most assuredly not our viewing habits, rights? You're okay with Big Gov controlling what we feed our bodies with, but God forbid it should interfere with with what we want to feed our minds. Right?

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

So let me see if I have this right:The "free market" should assume responsibility for the state of our health -- for the kinds of foods we choose to eat? I thought consumers drove the free market. I wasn't aware that the free market was supposed to drive demand and control supply. Isn't this what the movie industry always tells us, when it comes under criticism for all the garbage it produces? Isn't the first refrain we hear from this industry: "Well, we're just giving the people what they want. We're supplying what the public is demanding." Isn't this right? Now, Sec, you're telling us that if the "free market" doesn't force its choices down the consumers' throats, then Big Gov has every right to do just that? Is this your idea of how a free society is supposed to work? You're perfectly okay with Big Gov "censoring" our eating habits, but most assuredly not our viewing habits, rights? You're okay with Big Gov controlling what we feed our bodies with, but God forbid it should interfere with with what we want to feed our minds. Right?

Boxcar

All I can tell you BCar is ask the Olympic athletes how they feel about the free market air they'll be breathing in Beijing, or ask the guy next ot you filling up his tank how the freee market gas prices are going, or how efficient most people are with the competitive nature of buying their cable in America, or how the free market helped those homeowners facing foreclosure, or how the housewife who can't meet rising grocery costs is forced to select cheaper alternatives and ends up buying bulk foods at cheaper prices with less nutritional ingredients.

I beleive in competition, I don't belevie in usury, excessive greed, uncontrolled free markets. We saw the effects of unregulated free markets before the Depression. We saw them pre-Enron, we saw them with the subprime debacle. Government is always forced to step in and rescue with taxpayer money time after time. To exclude government from the equation might be your preference, but as much as government fails, at least they are accountable, what's worse is when those who are only beholding to themselves or shareholders get taxpayer money to make up for their greed or shenanigans.

Study the changes in processed food over the last 50 years and the correlation in weight gain. We say education, but almost every diet fails for the majority of people. People need to exercise as well, but the one thing governemnt can do is enforce that waht we eat is nutritous and not loaded with garbage. I applaud Arnold Schwarzenegger, a Republican ,to at least see the sense in that, and that government does have a role in aiding to avoid rising obesity, which will lead to escalating medical costs.

But you belevie the old stick your head in the sand, let business do what it wants, wil lsolve the problem. I know. Beleive I know.

[boxcar]

All I can tell you BCar is ask the Olympic athletes how they feel about the free market air they'll be breathing in Beijing, or ask the guy next ot you filling up his tank how the freee market gas prices are going, or how efficient most people are with the competitive nature of buying their cable in America, or how the free market helped those homeowners facing foreclosure, or how the housewife who can't meet rising grocery costs is forced to select cheaper alternatives and ends up buying bulk foods at cheaper prices with less nutritional ingredients.

The megabytes of irony with the problems you mention above is that every single one of are caused by governments! And these governments never hold themselves accountable. The problems are always someone else's fault!

Free market air in Beijing? I wasn't aware the ChiComs allowed any such markets. Virtually all industry is owned by them.

High gas prices? Our government has forbidden the oil companies from tapping into vast oil reserves because it's more important to save the seals and polar bears and the manatees in Florida, etc. , etc. Our government wants us to be oil-dependent -- largely on countries that aren't really our friends, too. But do you hear our government assuming any responsibility for the current state of affairs?

The mortgage crisis? Again, largely Big Gov was at fault. As stated recently elsewhere on this forum, government gave license to people to act stupidly and another license to banks to take advantage of that stupidity. One cannot expect good results from this kind of match up.

In short, Sec -- and this is what separates a libertarian-leaning fella like myself from a socialist: I view Government as the problem for the most part, whereas the more socially minded folks like yourself view government as the solution to virtually all problems. And the huge problem with your view of government's role is that the more Big Gov controls, the less control we the People have. The more Big Gov exerts its power over the People, the less empowered the People become. The more areas Big Gov wants to govern, the less self-governing there is by the People .

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

The megabytes of irony with the problems you mention above is that every single one of are caused by governments! And these governments never hold themselves accountable. The problems are always someone else's fault!

Free market air in Beijing? I wasn't aware the ChiComs allowed any such markets. Virtually all industry is owned by them.

The problem with the ChiComs is they don' govern. They allow corporations to do whatever they want if it helps business. Hence, a disaster in pollution, subservient wages, and working conditions. There' no government OSHA, no minimum wage, no EPA. No they simply let corporations do what they want rather than care about their citizens.


High gas prices? Our government has forbidden the oil companies from tapping into vast oil reserves because it's more important to save the seals and polar bears and the manatees in Florida, etc. , etc. Our government wants us to be oil-dependent -- largely on countries that aren't really our friends, too. But do you hear our government assuming any responsibility for the current state of affairs?


You are kidding. These companies already have been given vast oil reserves to tap into which they've failed to do so. The oil companies refuse to build large refineries despite huge profits, AND begin given corporate welfare from the government. When it comes to being dependent on foreign companies it comes from NOT launching government initiatives into alternative energy or raising the CAFE standards. Government is at fault for doing nothing and allowing the oil free market ot continue as is. Imagine if this admisntration had shown some leadership. Cars until recently had lower mpg averages than 1988. Government did nothing. It let free markets dictate rather than lead through foresight.


The mortgage crisis? Again, largely Big Gov was at fault. As stated recently elsewhere on this forum, government gave license to people to act stupidly and another license to banks to take advantage of that stupidity. One cannot expect good results from this kind of match up.

The reason government failed was due to greed and corporate lobbying. I've already posted in the Failed Bank thread. Look up the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which was implemented at the behest of corporate lobbying to gut the Glass-Steadman Act from post-depression days. Essentially, a business lobbyist , Phi Gramm, created a deregulated environment which led to this mess.



In short, Sec -- and this is what separates a libertarian-leaning fella like myself from a socialist: I view Government as the problem for the most part, whereas the more socially minded folks like yourself view government as the solution to virtually all problems. And the huge problem with your view of government's role is that the more Big Gov controls, the less control we the People have. The more Big Gov exerts its power over the People, the less empowered the People become. The more areas Big Gov wants to govern, the less self-governing there is by the People .

Boxcar

Anytime, a person here calls for government oversight they are labeled a socialist. Ridiculous.

Unlike you, I don't view government as the problem or the solution. I do view as the people. They are the ones who pick up the bill as a result of deregulated greed. You have bought into the myth that business works for the benefit of the country, and that government should get out of the way. Government is only corrupted when bought, and if they didn't have to be bougght they'd be doing what they wanted anyway (i.e Gramm, and Enron and Subprime). Without good government we'd have no minimum wage, no decent working conditions, no retirement for the elderly except for the privilieged, no healthcare for the elderly, no air standards. We'd have China. Watch the Olympics and enjoy the face masks on the athletes.

I don't beleive government is perfect, but after the Great Depression, Enron, Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, business sure isn't beholding to anyone ecept their shareholders and their CEO's.

[boxcar]

The problem with the ChiComs is they don' govern. They allow corporations to do whatever they want if it helps business. Hence, a disaster in pollution, subservient wages, and working conditions. There' no government OSHA, no minimum wage, no EPA. No they simply let corporations do what they want rather than care about their citizens.

I don't have a lot of time to get into a huge ideological discussion with you, especially after the above remark you made. The problem with the ChiComs is that they DO govern -- they govern far, far too much. They govern with an iron fist! They govern even the "capitalist" market over there. They are the corporations for all practical intent purposes. True enough, they are a bad government, but it doesn't take very much to go from where we are as a country to where they are!

Furthermore, I never said that capitalism (even U.S. style) should be allowed a totally free reign. SOME controls (as in "minimal" as possible) should be in place. You worry so much about "greed"? But yet you think that greed is virtually non-existent in government? It only exists and runs rampant in the free market? If you believe this, I have a nice patch of swampland to sell you! Politicians are both greedy and power-hungry and the quickest way they can gain power and money is by pandering to the "poor underclass" -- to the "unfortunate underprivileged" -- to those who are so filled with self-pity and self-contempt that they believe they're been victimized somehow at every turn in life. And all this pandering comes at the expense of hard working taxpayers. Crooked, corrupt, greedy, power-hungry politicians (on both sides of the aisle) buy such people's votes through bail outs, entitlements and appeasements via very ill-conceived laws -- such as those that were written to pander to the tree huggers who think the world is on the brink of doom, etc., etc. Government is the cause of far more social problems than it can ever hope to solve.

Bottom line: I don't want Big Gov infringing on my right to choose what the heck I want to eat when I want to eat it! I'll take personal responsibility for that, as well as for all health issues that may arise from my personal choices. What people like yourself will always fail to understand is that the more government intrudes into our private lives, into our personal choices the more freedoms we lose and the more Rights and Liberties the government gains. Our loss is Big Gov's gain. Always! The bigger government becomes, the smaller and less significant we become as individuals because Big Gov wants to swallow us up for the "public good". Collectivism trumps individualism. I don't think you'll ever understand this because you're so fixated on big, evil corporations -- not realizing that government is no better than the very corporate entities you, evidently, despise. And you know why you're so consumed with these "big, evil, greedy" corporations? It's because you view yourself as a victim! You feel helpless and powerless, which is why you feel the need for Big Gov's "ever-loving, protective arms" to wrap around you. You actually believe that government is a benevolent, all-caring, all-wise force for good. Isn't this right? Deep down, haven't I really nailed it? You have never come to that place in life for self-empowerment, self-actualization, self-reliance. You have no faith in yourself; therefore, you must place your trust in government. I pity you, sir, because naivete of this magnitude should only be found in a small child.

Boxcar

[highnote]

Obesity is not a social problem............. it's a personal problem.

Each and every person is responsible. It's my fault I am 50 lbs overweight. Not anybody elses.

The Food Nazi's in the government are once again sticking their noses where they don't belong.

I agree the individual has to take some responsibility -- if the person is mentally able to do so. Many people are not mentally capable. When so many people are overweight there is an effect on society. Society has to address these issues. So the individual and society play a role.

At the first link older people think obesity is a social problem. Younger people think it is a health problem.

http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Fitness/5-03-15FitnessSurvey.htm

At the second link, the argument is made that obesity is a social problem.

There is an alarming increase in the number of obese children.

"It is ironic that while we spend millions trying to identify obesity genes and find out how to intervene pharmacologically to counteract their effects, we are cutting school budgets for athletics and other extra-curricular programs that would help kids become more active and develop a healthier lifestyle," Allen says.

He also says that obesity may be a product of our evolution which took place under conditions of food scarcity.

"But today, when food production and service in the United States in particular is a big business, much of it with high fat and carbohydrate content, genes for storing these molecules are simply doing their job — and we become overweight. "

http://record.wustl.edu/web/page/normal/792.html

And of course, body weight is probably hereditary to some extent. My father's experience as a POW in WWII would support that theory. When he was forced to march across Germany as a POW he said it was the slight of build, skinny guys that survived; they needed less calories than the bigger guys. If someone fell behind and couldn't keep up they were shot.

So it gets complex and I'm not sure it can be generalized. For some people, being skinny and being healthy may not be possible. If this is true, then it becomes a medical issue if a person becomes underweight or overweight. As a society we build schools of higher education to produce doctors, health care workers and scientists to help solve these problems. The problems are solved through education, drugs, surgery, etc. when the individual is not able to solve them by himself.

So my view is that it is a social problem and an individual problem. Afterall, a society is nothing but a collection of individuals.

[Tom]

I agree the individual has to take some responsibility -- if the person is mentally able to do so. Many people are not mentally capable. When so many people are overweight there is an effect on society. Society has to address these issues. So the individual and society play a role.


As a part of society, I say then deal with the individual and leave me the hell alone. His inability to take care of himself is not my problem. Let Arnold take the guy home with him and nurse him.

[Tom]

This was once a REAL ad.....

[highnote]

This was once a REAL ad.....


:lol:

I ate lard once in Germany. It had chives and bacon mixed in and was used for spreading on bread instead of butter.

It tasted like someone took the grease from a pan that had been used to fry a hamburger and then spread it on bread.

I prefer butter.

[highnote]

As a part of society, I say then deal with the individual and leave me the hell alone. His inability to take care of himself is not my problem. Let Arnold take the guy home with him and nurse him.


What do you do with criminals? We build prisons and have police forces -- all paid for by society with taxpayer dollars.

A criminal is someone's problem (the victim and society's) and he sure as hell isn't going to take care of himself.

[Tom]

Nice segway to my prison plan.

Every prisoner goes in naked to an empty cell.
From there, he earns everything by working - meals, clothes, pillow, bed, rent....as long as it takes, he gets nothing until he earns enough credits to pay for it. If he doens't work, he doesn't eat.

But as for fast food, denying me the right to eat Big Macks is just not what I want a government doing. We do not need that degree of facism. Bring on anarchy and survival of the fittest if that is what government degenerates to.
Why are so many people unwilling to allow people to fail and pay for thier decisions? We perpetuate the weak and dilute the species. We are the only species who allow the weak to remain part of the "herd."
We need to start thinnig our own out.

[highnote]

Nice segway to my prison plan.

I knew you'd have a good reply! :D


But as for fast food, denying me the right to eat Big Macks is just not what I want a government doing. We do not need that degree of facism. Bring on anarchy and survival of the fittest if that is what government degenerates to.
Why are so many people unwilling to allow people to fail and pay for thier decisions? We perpetuate the weak and dilute the species. We are the only species who allow the weak to remain part of the "herd."
We need to start thinnig our own out.


You'd like these paragraphs from the link that I posted above:

Eugenicists emphasized selective breeding, encouraging only those deemed genetically fit to have children, and discouraging or forcibly preventing (by sterilization) those deemed genetically unfit from breeding.

In the United States, eugenicists lobbied for compulsory sterilization laws at the state level, and for selective immigration restriction at the national level. When the Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933, they introduced their sweeping sterilization laws based on those already in existence in the United States.

Good thing these laws weren't in effect when my parents started their family! Although, many would disagree. :D