Is there software to instantly use to test your own angles against DRF files?

[Bill Cullen]

Is there software that can be quickly used to generate custom queries to test your own angles against DRF files?

Thanks,

Bill C

[JustRalph]

Jcapper maybe. Everytime I do this I get my ass in over my head, but I think you are referring to building your own data models.

here is an example of one from Saratoga's first race on opening day

I build my UDM's (angles) and the program shows me the matches etc.....

I suggest you go to the Jcapper website. I am a newbie with it.

This is using a BRIS file............ .drf

[Bill Cullen]

What I really want is to log-in to an online database & do queries.

Thanks,

Bill C

[JustRalph]

What I really want is to log-in to an online database & do queries.

Thanks,

Bill C

This is basically the same thing except the database resides on your machine, made up of the card files and results files you download.

[richrosa]

What I really want is to log-in to an online database & do queries.

Thanks,

Bill C

That service does not exist.

[Bill Cullen]

That service does not exist.

Rich,

Thanks. I won't waste my time looking for an on-line database.

Bill C

[Bill Cullen]

This is basically the same thing except the database resides on your machine, made up of the card files and results files you download.

Ralph,

I appreciate your response.

I undertsand the general architecture. I'm a software project manager by profession.

Bill C

[ryesteve]

Thanks. I won't waste my time looking for an on-line database.There are more than a handful of people around here who do store data, and I don't think they'd mind testing your angles so long as they've got the necessary fields.

[Bill Cullen]

Thanks for your response.

Bill C

[JustRalph]

Ralph,

I appreciate your response.

I undertsand the general architecture. I'm a software project manager by profession.

Bill C

:ThmbUp:

[highnote]

That service does not exist.


Sounds like there is a need for a business that can supply that service.

[JustRalph]

Sounds like there is a need for a business that can supply that service.


The problem is, you would get sued by about 3 different groups if you tried it.

[applebee]

What I really want is to log-in to an online database & do queries.

Thanks,

Bill C

you are already logged into probably the largest database around.
But that would require posting the angle and I can fully understand why you may not want to!

[richrosa]

Sounds like there is a need for a business that can supply that service.


What would you pay for in a service and how much would you pay?

[Tom Barrister]

Equibase and partners are pretty adamant about you having to make your own database from purchased data files. There are some online databases (Turfday and HandicappingOS to name two), but I don't believe you can run queries on every piece of information in each horse's past performance.

[LEN C]

What would you pay for in a service and how much would you pay?

From someone who has undertaken such tasks,

the problem with such an undertaking is the sheer complexity of what's trying to be done:

-- A full file for just one horse could conceivably contain 1,500 pieces of information. Literally any combination of these things could be used, especially when someone wants to go back several races for PP info. As everybody wants to try different things, one pretty much has to be a programmer satisfy getting exactly what the person wants correctly.

Most angles involve some elimination criteria. These can sometimes be vaguely worded, as "horses going up SLIGHTLY in class for three races in a row". These type of requirements have to be translated to exact algorithms, which always don't fit as neatly as one would like.

Some angles are OK just with whoever survives the eliminations.

However, most also, in addition to eliminations, have a point system to find the best of the survivors.

One would probably want to know how the winners with only a point lead over the second place horse works, or do you need a 10-point gap to make your angle worthwhile. Data must be collected to measure all the gaps to hopefully find an ideal one. Often I find that a horse winning by a huge gap is either a 1/5 shot or has this score due to aberrant data?

Did I just say abberant data? Yep, I did. Do you think that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those timings and lengths behind are 100% accurate? Just a question.

If you're going to go through this much trouble, you probably would like to see how your angle does in innumerable situations, such as each class, quality of jockey and/or trainer, layoff status (and different criteria of what constitues a layoff). Etc. Etc. Etc. I have well over 50 of them that I call my Booster Points, and as almost every TIP could also be a testing situation in itself, I could be way over 100.

What's your measure of success? Straight win ROI? Place? Exotics? Everybody's is different.

How big's your sample. If an angle performs really terribly over 200-300 races, then that's probably a good time to drop or modify the angle. That part's easy. But to really get confidence in something, I'd want to see it tested over FULL MEETS, over several years, and with many tracks. I would not be comfortable with anything less. This amount of data costs money, and even with a good operation, would take a bit of time to run through.

--------------------

None of the above is meant to discourage a very noble idea, which is to test out your theory. I get them all the time. I have done TWO exhaustive studies, and would really like to do a third in the future. Each one has been an exhaustive experience, and the next one would be even more complex. I don't want to discourage, but I would caution you that a study that you would really have confidence in should be looked at very carefully before you start plunking down a lot of your money based on the results.

I sincerely wish the folks trying this endeavor to be very careful about how they go about it.

[JustRalph]

The more I read, the more I appreciate Jcapper :ThmbUp:

Great post Len

[highnote]

What would you pay for in a service and how much would you pay?


That's a tough question. I already have written my own database software, so it's not a service I need.

If I owned the company maybe I'd sell the service by the session with unlimited queries per 1 hour session. It's hard to get the query right the first time. When I query my database, I constantly tweak the query by changing various filters until it seems right.

Maybe $5 per hour is the right amount? If you get 20 people on the site per hour, you're talking $100 per hour. Maybe you make $500 - $1,000 per day?

If you get a customer doing 10 hours of month that's 50 bucks. That's a reasonable for the customer and extra cash for you. Maybe you kick some money back to the monopoly to keep them happy.

Just brings up an interesting question... How is it that Equibase represents all the racetracks and isn't a monopoly, but THG who represents horsemen is?

But I digress.

But if you can't do this with the blessing of Equibase, then maybe the way to do it is to set up the database on a rented server in China. From what I've heard and read it seems the Chinese don't enforce digital copyrights the same way we do here.

And why not set up the servers offshore -- Betfair takes wagering on U.S. races and doesn't pay a royalty to my knowledge. I don't see anyone suing them. If you buy data from Equibase then why not sell a service that queries that data. You're not selling data, you're selling a service. Hell, rent your server space from a company in Great Britain or the Caribbean or Costa Rica.

[barn32]

Equibase and partners are pretty adamant about you having to make your own database from purchased data files.

Why?

[richrosa]

But if you can't do this with the blessing of Equibase, then maybe the way to do it is to set up the database on a rented server in China. From what I've heard and read it seems the Chinese don't enforce digital copyrights the same way we do here.


Thanks. Your answer is a strong possibility of why it will never become a product. There is a cost to deliver a service. If the price one would pay for that service does not exceed what it costs with a reasonable profit in-between, no entrepreneur would build it.

Most importantly, I doubt anyone would go into business looking to avoid US law or deliberately stepping over copyright law. I certaintly would not.

What does it cost you per month to build and maintain your own database?

[highnote]

Thanks. Your answer is a strong possibility of why it will never become a product. There is a cost to deliver a service. If the price one would pay for that service does not exceed what it costs with a reasonable profit in-between, no entrepreneur would build it.

Most importantly, I doubt anyone would go into business looking to avoid US law or deliberately stepping over copyright law. I certaintly would not.

What does it cost you per month to build and maintain your own database?

I was thinking just the opposite. :D The reason someone would set up this type of service is because they can make 500-1000 dollars per day. That's not too bad and it could be done by one individual.

You can probably buy all the data you need for 5-10 thousand dollars -- and maybe the individual already owns it.

It isn't clear that an individual would be violating copyright law by setting up this type of service.

I spend maybe an hour per month updating my database. Maybe 30 minutes per month downloading data. And it costs about $100 per month to buy the data.

Again, the powers that be have done a good job of convincing everyone that their data is sacred and that it can't be used by anyone but the person who purchases it.

In my opinion the more people who use the data, the higher the betting handle will be. Of course, the industry doesn't seem to care about increasing betting handle.

[richrosa]

You can probably buy all the data you need for 5-10 thousand dollars -- and maybe the individual already owns it.

It isn't clear that an individual would be violating copyright law by setting up this type of service.


I'm sorry. It is absolutely clear. Equibase OWNS the data. They license their data to users for a particular purpose, of which resale isn't one of them unless you obtain a special license from them.

I'm sorry to burst another bubble, but even at the pricing level that you suggest, you will find the general medium-expert handicapper, yes, the guy that reads PA, unwilling to part with enough cash to make that $1,000 a day revenue a reality. You guys just don't buy enough goods and services to make putting out such a commodity product worthwhile.

There are however a select few amongst us who get and pay for special services to which a service you speak of might be worthwhile. They will pay more and get more, which leaves the common guy with free BRIS files, scraping PDF's for data, and spending months upon months trying to get Access to work. The threads on PA justify my assertions simply by their sheer volume.

[sjk]

What is wrong with spending months developing a piece of software if you get something useful from the investment of time?

You anticipated flames from the Access users but it seems like you are the one who keeps slamming us.

Surely there is more than one road to success.

[richrosa]

What is wrong with spending months developing a piece of software if you get something useful from the investment of time?

You anticipated flames from the Access users but it seems like you are the one who keeps slamming us.

Surely there is more than one road to success.

I wasn't talking about one's individual development. I don't think that's a waste of time, but to expect to sell something is different all together.

I don't mean to sound like I'm slamming anyone, rather to explain that the market for handicapping products is a lot smaller than everyone thinks. We all think the "next guy" is buying something, but in fact, there are VERY FEW "next guys".

[sjk]

Now that i understand your point I would have to agree completely.

Making software that is effective for personal use is a completely different objective than making something which can be used by and supported for others.

[highnote]

I'm sorry. It is absolutely clear. Equibase OWNS the data. They license their data to users for a particular purpose, of which resale isn't one of them unless you obtain a special license from them.

No need to apologize. However, I disagree. I can't think of any reason why someone would be breaking the law by letting someone else query their database to find out that Joe Trainer has x percent wins with first time starters at Saratoga with an average mutual of $xx.

Isn't there a company that offers(ed) that kind of service in Vegas -- SportStat?

I'm sorry to burst another bubble, but even at the pricing level that you suggest, you will find the general medium-expert handicapper, yes, the guy that reads PA, unwilling to part with enough cash to make that $1,000 a day revenue a reality. You guys just don't buy enough goods and services to make putting out such a commodity product worthwhile.

I disagree. If no one is making $1,000 per day selling data or services it is because the data and services aren't good enough. If someone makes a product or service that actually helps their clients make money then their service will make a lot of money.

I would think DRF must make $1,000 per day on data sales.

In the end, whether I agree with you or not is moot. I don't plan on offering an online query service. But I would encourage someone else to do so. :ThmbUp:

[RichieP]

If no one is making $1,000 per day selling data or services it is because the data and services aren't good enough. If someone makes a product or service that actually helps their clients make money then their service will make a lot of money.


Bingo!!
That is why Htr has such a huge following. That is why Ted Craven's RDSS software has 100 users at present and it is NOT even been released in full.

Because the PRODUCT is SUPERIOR to what's out there in helping cappers make MONEY.

Very simple stuff. Very simple.

Good day!

[richrosa]

Bingo!!
That is why Htr has such a huge following. That is why Ted Craven's RDSS software has 100 users at present and it is NOT even been released in full.

Because the PRODUCT is SUPERIOR to what's out there in helping cappers make MONEY.

Very simple stuff. Very simple.

Good day!

HTR has a substantial following.

If RDSS produces an average of $100 a day for Ted, I'd be bowled over in my chair, and RDSS is a superb product.

[Pace Cap'n]

I seem to recall someone coming on here not too long ago offering something similar to what the OP described. He was more or less hooted down on the "why would I send you my angles" theory. It may have even been for free.

[raybo]

I seem to recall someone coming on here not too long ago offering something similar to what the OP described. He was more or less hooted down on the "why would I send you my angles" theory. It may have even been for free.

Maybe getting someone else's angles would be enough payment, thus, the "free" offer? I wouldn't mind giving a database owner an angle or 2 if I could ask some questions and he would do the queries. ;)

[Bill Cullen]

Maybe getting someone else's angles would be enough payment, thus, the "free" offer? I wouldn't mind giving a database owner an angle or 2 if I could ask some questions and he would do the queries. ;)

Raybo,

Ditto! I liked your answer. I sent the gentleman one of my best angles. No single spot or angle, even should they prove to be profitable, is likely to single-handedly change the nature of this game. If the spot is really profitable, it probably won't generate many plays and the ROI will probably, in the long run, be only slightly to the plus side (if at all).

Best,

Bill C