Curious about workout reports

[pktruckdriver]

Yep I am a curious one.

I was wondering about the following circuits, maybe even track specific

Workout reports and what y'all thought about using them??




I have heard stuff about integrity questions concerning them, and I figured this would be the place to here about those issues, which I really think are not going to be an issue.


The following tracks:
1 Gulfstream
2 Keenland
3 Saratoga
4 Santa Anita
5 Hollywood


Number 6 , Del Mar, I already got and am very happy with it, and the results from using it, as it already paid for itself, don't know how I did without them.
Really I think of it as just another piece of the puzzle, at least I think that way, I'm sure others will think too much info may create overload, who knows?


I hope y'all will help me find where I may get the following tracks and who may produce reports or such , I would be greatly obliged, (did I spell that word , right?), to all who helped me find them.


Thanks

[pktruckdriver]

You know the DRF has some minor workout stuff, including bullets, but I really am looking for more detailed info, from the morning guys at the tracks.



I know it is out there but without going to the tracks personally in the morning, I was hoping you guys, and gals too, would help me find these reports.


Thanks , just thought I would clear that up

[HUSKER55]

Got a buddy who's dad used to work at a track and he used to tell stories of how workouts were put together. Certain days they really worked the track and speeds were slow, some days the handler would ride the horse, some days the horses were doped up and the track was solid and the list goes on. Some days the clocker had to ask the trainer which horse was which cause he got mixed up. What do you think he told them?

How else, for example, do you compensate for a horse who does a 4f wo in 55 and then runs 44 in the race. Throw in the fact that horses are worked out on the trainers track that no one knows about and using workouts becomes a tough cookie. How would you use that info on a horse with no posted workouts and yet wins? It happens more than you think.

That is why I don't invest in workouts. But, ...I am still learning as you are.

Just MHO

husker55

:)

[Todaysracingdigest]

I think you have touched on an important issue regarding workouts. A large part of the value of a workout is in the credibility of the clocker/analyst providing the information. A good workout analyst should be able to determine whether the workout was valid, what type of workout it was and if there was any value in the work for the handicapper. The other issue brought up is being able to identify the horse working. This also requires a skilled and experienced clocker/analyst to be able to identify the correct horse.

Today's Racing Digest has workout reports for Southern California tracks. We typcially have clockers at both on and off tracks. We currently have clockers at Hollywood and Del Mar. - Hope this helps.

[HUSKER55]

Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

husker55
:)

[46zilzal]

At many racetracks, a carefully place 10 dallor bill will markedly chnage the reported time.

2nd, if there are too many horses on the track, it is very easy to mix them up as there are NO identifying STANDARDS to differentiate one horse over another. Some run with specific stable colors displayed, many don't so the clockers have to keep track of them from the time they come through the gap (and indentification is radioed to them from the horse identifier - even then the out rider just calls out "Man O'War working 5 furlongs for Fuestel" and that may or maybe not true) to the time they acutally finish warming up and work which can be anwyhere from 3 to 10 minutes....EASY to lose one here and there.

PROBABLY MOST IMPORTANT: there are no drug tests on workout horses.

[njcurveball]

At many racetracks, a carefully place 10 dallor bill will markedly chnage the reported time.



Nice to know someone who works at the track has this high opinion of his fellow workers. :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

Nice to know someone who works at the track has this high opinion of his fellow workers.
The Bay area of Northern California was and is famous for that

[pktruckdriver]

Well it seems that I have been told not to rely on most workout reports, by the majority of y'all, and then one who provides reports for So.Cal, stating the intergrity is determined by who does the reporting, well of course that would be true.



But basically all , most all put no credit into workout reports being of any value , for a few reasons, 1 being trusting the source of the report, and the then truly trucsting the accuracy of the report, due to too many horses on track at one time, and also trainers who use their own track to train with, so some horses have no workouts reported, true too.


Nothing from New York or Florida, no reports from their or is it a given their are not realiable, or just plain useless, this I find hard to believe.

I wish to believe that INTERGRITY is still in the game, am I wrong, I hope not.
A great workout report always helps with 1ster's and may tell you of the horses true ability too, as physical condition of the horses is also part of the reports, right?

Well hopefully a few will answer that may put some creditbility back into getting these reports, but enough are already bashing them, kinda sad.

[equicom]

I believe workout reports and race results coming out of California are more honest than other areas I have reviewed (apart from Canada).

The worst areas seem to be in the North East, especially NY, Maryland, etc. I am not sure at this stage what the connection is, but I am hoping it is just a case of more consistent weather out West, and not some organized cheating racket. But you never know (and probably never will!).

Anyway, so far, I have found that in 3 years of official testing, California is on top by quite a margin.

Rank for California:

1. HOL
2. SA
3. DMR
4. GG

SA results only inferior to HOL due to the DHT and movable rail. On dirt, SA is probably slightly ahead.

[Dan Montilion]

Old Joke... Clockers Math, 46 and 4 equals 50.

[john del riccio]

At many racetracks, a carefully place 10 dallor bill will markedly chnage the reported time.

2nd, if there are too many horses on the track, it is very easy to mix them up as there are NO identifying STANDARDS to differentiate one horse over another. Some run with specific stable colors displayed, many don't so the clockers have to keep track of them from the time they come through the gap (and indentification is radioed to them from the horse identifier - even then the out rider just calls out "Man O'War working 5 furlongs for Fuestel" and that may or maybe not true) to the time they acutally finish warming up and work which can be anwyhere from 3 to 10 minutes....EASY to lose one here and there.

PROBABLY MOST IMPORTANT: there are no drug tests on workout horses.


46,

TY for telling it like it is, i have tried regarding thi ssubject in the past and
was met with all kind of resistance. It is what it is.

the only clocker i would listen to is Joe Ridell from PTC, his KEE analysis was freaky.

John

[lamboguy]

i have never seen a guy like joe ridell at the keeneland meet. he was not only great at young horses but super with the horses that never ran on synthetic surfaces. his analysis was unreal in figureing out if a horse likes the stuff or not. he actually came up with horses with very weak numbers on conventional surfaces that stepped up and ran the race of their lives.
i learned not to step out and try to play synthetic surfaces without expert help like him. some of the handle decline at the california tracks are from people like me that haven't been able to adjust to the new surface. the handles have gone down even though the average field size grew.
one more thing, joe was always talking about the right foot for the surface. i noticed on television that there are people in the california tracks 5 deep around the walking circle looking at feet. more than what they did years ago when conventional tracks were wet, or for turf races.

[HEY DUDE]

I tend to agree with most on here regarding clocker reports. They are only as good as the people doing them. I have used Andy Harringtons reports in the past for DelMar and found it to be usefull. However, it is a very small part of my method for handicapping.

[Robert Fischer]

time means very little as opposed to how the horse did it.

For example polanco had that horse bad boy run today off that 4f in 45 work. What was he about a second and a half faster than the next best?

Unless you really understand horses, yuo don't know if badboy was pushed in the work at race effort. You don't know how he finished, or if the time was even accurate.
A bunch of horses can run 45 or 46 if pushed at race-effort.

assuming it was accurate, you have a horse that should not have been entered at a mile on turf, and should have been entered at 6f on the del mar poly. Bad boy chased hard and held third today at a mile on the turf and he was sitting on a big one.

That is why a trainer like Marcelo Polanco is a garbage 6% winners and 28% in the money. He takes an allowance winner type of horse for 6f del mar main track and transforms him into an also ran at a turf mile.

So you put this knucklehead on your watch-list and hope he stays sound and comes back before the meet is done going 6/8ths poly...:rolleyes:

Is a clocker service worth it? Probably not, but if the clockers do a quality job, then it would be.

[ElKabong]

46,

TY for telling it like it is, i have tried regarding thi ssubject in the past and
was met with all kind of resistance. It is what it is.

the only clocker i would listen to is Joe Ridell from PTC, his KEE analysis was freaky.

John


No, 46 is not telling it like it is. He's just mouthing off an opinion.

Clocker services stay in business by giving their clients live horses at good odds. If clockers failed to do so they'd be out of business. How long has Harrington been at it? Bruno? Or the HR clockers in so Cal? They all have faithful followings and still have the shingle hanging out front.

If you bet a 3-5 horse solely off a clocker report, you deserve to lose your ass. Losers are losers regardless of their handicapping tool.

Since May alone I've spent over $700 on clocker services and it's paid for itself several times over. Several times. Like anything else you look for live horses at good odds and bet hard.

[46zilzal]

No, 46 is not telling it like it is. He's just mouthing off an opinion.


NO he is explaining from YEARS of experience RIGHT THERE WITH THE CLOCKERS for the DRF as to SOME of the things that make workouts less important than most other aspects of handicapping. It is RECENCY, not time that matters.

Go to just about any other training venue on earth and the stable all goes out together to run over long gallops.

[ElKabong]

I've been to several tracks in the mornings from years past, you're not telling me anything of import. I know clockers miss/ cross up, or screw things up. That's one reason I subscribe to more than 1 service.

You still haven;t addressed the fact that clockers would be out of business if they didn't give out live horses at good odds. Don't expect you to either, because you'd be lying thru your teeth if you stated to the contrary.

Wait for live horses at good odds and bet hard. In any method that should be the deal..... Argue that one.

[ElKabong]

. It is RECENCY, not time that matters..


I'll take how they move, over time given. Some go 3 wide around a turn, some have a 150lb rider, some are held until late, etc.....It's how they move.

[joelouis]

time means very little as opposed to how the horse did it.

For example polanco had that horse bad boy run today off that 4f in 45 work. What was he about a second and a half faster than the next best?

Unless you really understand horses, yuo don't know if badboy was pushed in the work at race effort. You don't know how he finished, or if the time was even accurate.
A bunch of horses can run 45 or 46 if pushed at race-effort.

assuming it was accurate, you have a horse that should not have been entered at a mile on turf, and should have been entered at 6f on the del mar poly. Bad boy chased hard and held third today at a mile on the turf and he was sitting on a big one.

That is why a trainer like Marcelo Polanco is a garbage 6% winners and 28% in the money. He takes an allowance winner type of horse for 6f del mar main track and transforms him into an also ran at a turf mile.

So you put this knucklehead on your watch-list and hope he stays sound and comes back before the meet is done going 6/8ths poly...:rolleyes:

Is a clocker service worth it? Probably not, but if the clockers do a quality job, then it would be.

Good post, very informative

[facorsig]

One way to view workouts is simply the presence (or absence) of a workout as an indicator of fitness. While I do not use workouts as a primary handicapping element, interesting to see that most disregard, but some are placing a lot of emphasis and seeing rewards.

[john del riccio]

No, 46 is not telling it like it is. He's just mouthing off an opinion.

Clocker services stay in business by giving their clients live horses at good odds. If clockers failed to do so they'd be out of business. How long has Harrington been at it? Bruno? Or the HR clockers in so Cal? They all have faithful followings and still have the shingle hanging out front.

If you bet a 3-5 horse solely off a clocker report, you deserve to lose your ass. Losers are losers regardless of their handicapping tool.

Since May alone I've spent over $700 on clocker services and it's paid for itself several times over. Several times. Like anything else you look for live horses at good odds and bet hard.

I have personally been at the track for training Several times and seen and heard with my own eyes & ears, mis-information purposely given to the clockers regarding workouts at tracks in NY,NJ, & PA. Why would I fabricate this ?
What do I have to gain by not giving it to you straight ?

The west coast is a different story, the east coast is an unregulated free-for-all.

John

[NY BRED]

so, here is a thought.


Why not place a light scanning device on horses (or saddle)training at the track.


Have each horse identified prior to entering the track by a track official
to confirm this is the horse working today(ie tatoo on lip).


Have several clockers or officials present to avoid "misread works"


and allow the public a honest shot?:jump:

[HUSKER55]

I have been busy and have not checked out any clockers reports. But before I invest any effort I would like someone to explain something to me. Assume everything is on the up and up.

Workouts are supposed to be just that. A workout. If the rider made the horse run a "mini-race" would it be reasonable to assume the horse should have a break period like after a hard run "regular race" if he is to be a contender?

I would think, (and I could be wrong), that any horse that ran faster than 12 sec/furlong in a workout might be riden too hard and the trainer intentions are not to win if that race is withing 10 days.

If I am right then any time recorded would be just be any time. Therefore I tend to believe if the horse has been worked out then the trainer is doing the right thing and I don't see how time would matter.

Next question. Aren't all workouts done on the dirt, even for turf horses?
If the answer is yes then what would the time of a workout matter?

If I am off base, please advise.

Thanks

husker55

:)