Wagering Getting Crushed

[DeanT]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/46253.htm

“If the handle is going down, that is not a good sign,” he said. “There is less interest. What underlies that, though, is that it may not be as bad as what it looks for a particular racetrack, or that it could be way worse for another racetrack.”

The National Thoroughbred Racing Association, in conjunction with Equibase, recently reported a 4.15% decline in North American handle during the second quarter of the year, which ended June 30. NTRA president and chief executive officer Alex Waldrop, who didn’t return a call seeking comment for this article, termed the current industry scene “challenging.”

"Our industry is in the midst of a challenging period with discretionary entertainment dollars tighter than they have been for several years,” he said in a statement.

One ADW executive, who asked to remain anonymous, said he saw an immediate drop in wagering following the end of the Triple Crown series.

“It was instantaneous and dramatic,” he said, estimating his company’s decline at 15% since July 8. “One day I looked at our numbers and it was like, ‘Where did all of our players go?’ ”

This ADW impasse has caused serious difficulties and time is of the essence. Let's hope someone is listening.

[Tom]

Think any of the morons understand that most they lose will not come back?
Naw, that would entail thinking. :D:12:

[rrbauer]

The Drew Couto's and Bob Reeve's of the world, the TOC, the THG, et al; NONE OF THEM GET IT. They are pissing on the only growth mechanism the game has left: ADW-based online wagering.

And, it's both a paltry and fragile mechanism. Whatever they ultimately succeed in getting in terms of commission points they will have lost in overall revenue because of the players they are driving away and the racetracks and racing association that will have been forced to close and/or downsize.

Couto and his band of Pied-Piper-following-know-nothings think that controlling the "content" provides them leverage. Too bad they haven't been following the newspaper industry. It's content driven to the hilt and it's been in a downward spiral for the past ten years. That's the way downward spirals' work. Racing's handle has started that ride.

I hope there's something left to boycott when October gets here!

[DJofSD]

The Drew Couto's and Bob Reeve's of the world, the TOC, the THG, et al; NONE OF THEM GET IT. They are pissing on the only growth mechanism the game has left: ADW-based online wagering.

I could not agree more.

[Cangamble]

"Our industry is in the midst of a challenging period with discretionary entertainment dollars tighter than they have been for several years,” he said in a statement.
*************************************
Entertainment dollars tight? How is sports attendance doing? I'll bet lottery ticket sales and sports betting are continuuing on their upward path too.

No, horse racing needs to compete by giving customers a bigger bang for their buck, or they need to get into the lottery business and have $25 million guaranteed jackpots.

[KMS]

all I know is I missed a $26.20 winner yestereday because I can't bet Calder.

[trigger]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>"One ADW executive, who asked to remain anonymous, said he saw an immediate drop in wagering following the end of the Triple Crown series.
“It was instantaneous and dramatic,” he said, estimating his company’s decline at 15% since July 8. “One day I looked at our numbers and it was like, ‘Where did all of our players go?’ ”"


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"But one of the organizers of the new Horseplayers Association of North America feels some bettors have indeed departed the pools for friendlier environments.
“There is no doubt that some players have left the traditional pari-mutuel wagering platforms,” said John Swetye, a Connecticut entrepreneur who helped launch HANA, an advocacy organization for bettors. “Some left because they can't get a bet down with their ADW because it doesn't offer a particular track, or because the player can't have an account with a certain ADW because of where they live.”
Swetye, a former horse owner who is involved in television production and hedge funds, said one of HANA’s goals is to contribute positively to the industry’s solution process. But he said some perceptions are going to have to change.
“Right now, horseplayers get too little respect -- especially among some racetrack executives,” he said. “Horseplayers can not understand why the customer is given so little respect. Without horseplayers, would racetracks exist?”"

[DeanT]

Triggie,

If you have something to say, why dont you say it?

[JustRalph]

all I know is I missed a $26.20 winner yestereday because I can't bet Calder.

nope, you missed every winner at Calder because you can't bet it.........~ !

[BombsAway Bob]

nope, you missed every winner at Calder because you can't bet it.........~ !
I'm having my BEST Calder Meeting EVER....I'm Even!

[Burls]

all I know is I missed a $26.20 winner yestereday because I can't bet Calder.
Calder is dead to me.
There are plenty of other tracks that are willing to take my wagers.
There are plenty of other 12/1 winners to be had at those tracks.

If they want to voluntarily bow out of the competition for scarce wagering dollars, Good Riddance!

[highnote]

Triggie,

If you have something to say, why dont you say it?


I think he was replying to KMS's post about missing a 26 dollar horse because he couldn't bet at Calder. And was using the BH piece to make the point.

I think?

[Indulto]

I think he was replying to KMS's post about missing a 26 dollar horse because he couldn't bet at Calder. And was using the BH piece to make the point.

I think?SJ,
Where do we stand with the press release?

[highnote]

SJ,
Where do we stand with the press release?


Same as yesterday. Between trying to make time to spend with my family on vacation and trying to make time to spend on HANA I haven't done a thing on the press release.

I'll look it over now and send you some thoughts.

[Indulto]

Same as yesterday. Between trying to make time to spend with my family on vacation and trying to make time to spend on HANA I haven't done a thing on the press release.

I'll look it over now and send you some thoughts.Great. Enjoy the vacation. They can get far and few between for activists. ;)

[highnote]

press release looks good as is. Maybe a mention of the BH article should be included.

[Indulto]

press release looks good as is. Maybe a mention of the BH article should be included.That's what I thought along with DT's PaulickReport Editorial. Want to do the cutting and pasting, Boss? ;)

[highnote]

It might be a week before I get around to it. If you want to wait that long I'll be glad to do it.

[trying2win]

According to this DRF article, the overall parimutuel handle is down at Del Mar so far this meet. I'm not surprised. As usual, a track employee blames the decline on something else but the truth. In this case, he blames things like the economy and cancellation of the last day of racing at Belmont as "reasons'. I've noticed over the years when a track's handle declines, the track doing the complaining usually blames things like the economy, the weather, casino competition and on and on...blah! blah! blah! Everything but the truth. As for the Del Mar partimutuel decline, in my opinion I blame Devious Drew at the TOC and his controversial ADW access and signal fee disputes for that.

Anyway, here's the DRF article:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/96603.html


--Who or what do PA members blame for the Del Mar parimutuel decline? Would be interesting to read your answers.

--By the way, the TOC has an interesting poll these days re THG. If you feel inclined, make your choice on the poll at http://www.toconline.com/
I suspect most PA members will vote 'NO' :D


T2W

[DJofSD]

In this case, he blames things like the economy and cancellation of the last day of racing at Belmont as "reasons'.

I find that excuse very laughable.

Having seen the message posted on this board earlier in the day on Sunday, I already knew BEL had cancelled the closing day card.

I arrived at DMR about 2 hours before post time for the first race. Made my usual "ports of call." Not a single person I spoke to was aware or even cared that BEL had cancelled their card earlier in the day. These were mutual clerks, concession stand people and other handicappers. Eventually, one guy who was looking for the BEL feature race on a TV that usually has it was asking the nearby crowd 'where's Belmont?' I finally spoke up to tell him the entire card had been cancelled earlier in the day. He kind of shrugged his shoulders, turned around and went elsewhere

Ya, handle's down at DMR because of things completely outside the control of DMR, the TOC, the CHRB and California politicos.

[JustRalph]

What bothers me is their is no journalistic leadership in the industry when it comes to either Television channel.

Too bad all they care about is "Sending it in" somebody should be screaming at the top of their lungs on both channels about these problems.

Television is the ultimate Bully Pulpit. But I understand why they don't do it. It really isn't up their proverbial alley..............

[KMS]

What bothers me is their is no journalistic leadership in the industry when it comes to either Television channel.

Too bad all they care about is "Sending it in" somebody should be screaming at the top of their lungs on both channels about these problems.

Television is the ultimate Bully Pulpit. But I understand why they don't do it. It really isn't up their proverbial alley..............

One guy who gets it is Bob Valvano, the late Jimmy V's brother. He has a show on Friday nights on ESPN Radio, and I believe he also does local radio in Louisiville. He and I have exchanged emails several times about the problems facing racing, and he often talks about it on his show.

OTOH, Sirius has a show called At The Races and Beyond which is a total shill for the horsemen.

[JustRalph]

OTOH, Sirius has a show called At The Races and Beyond which is a total shill for the horsemen.

:lol: :lol:

I love this board............ :p :cool:

[Premier Turf Club]

OTOH, Sirius has a show called At The Races and Beyond which is a total shill for the horsemen.

That is totally untrue. Steve Byk and John Perotta are both really good guys and degenerate horseplayers (I mean that in the most positive sense) to the core.

Anyone who knows me knows that I have no problem calling out those in the business that don't "get it." Steve and John are two that do indeed "get it."

[trigger]

Triggie,

If you have something to say, why dont you say it?
Deany,
Just trying to emphasize the fact for PA members who may not be following the HANA's progress closely that HANA is getting quoted in national news articles.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

That is totally untrue. Steve Byk and John Perotta are both really good guys and degenerate horseplayers (I mean that in the most positive sense) to the core.

Anyone who knows me knows that I have no problem calling out those in the business that don't "get it." Steve and John are two that do indeed "get it."

Byk's interview of Daruty was sickening and 100% anti-horseplayer.

That's the only time I've ever listened to this goof and after that, I would never label him horseplayer friendly.

[Zman179]

It's obvious to me that the large share of the wagering loss is due to the lousy economy. With the price of everything from food to gasoline to heating oil to water going up by sizeable percentages, the discretionary income of many households has been slashed. From opening day at Santa Rosa, one fan said,

“I usually come out with $400 or $500,” said Chole, a physical education teacher at Novato High School. “This year, I came out with $100. I’m not betting as much. I’m just here for the atmosphere.”

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080723/SPORTS/401930435/1033/NEWS&title=County_fair_race_fans_rein_in_spending

Betting on horse races is a luxury, and when tight times arrive some luxuries have to take a back seat for a while.

[alydar]

Byk's interview of Daruty was sickening and 100% anti-horseplayer.

That's the only time I've ever listened to this goof and after that, I would never label him horseplayer friendly.

I listen to Byk all the time. I have to admit that I was surprised to hear how strongly he has sided with the horsemen on this issue. Although I think he may have a few good points, overall I disagree with him.

Byk never exactly gives tough interviews. If you are looking for Mike Wallace, well Byk insn't in the same neighborhood.

He seems to be a good guy. You never hear him bad mouth anybody. He obviously really enjoys the game and the people in it.

I say leave the guy alone. He is entitled to his opinion, and he and his show are not what is wrong with the game. His show is really very good, with a great range of guests that you cannot get access to anywhere else and he is a friend to the game.

[cj]

I like Steve Byk. He is a good guy. However, right now, he is running DT Stables with trainer Chuck Simon. I doubt he is unbiased on the issue. You have to listen with that in mind.

I listen to Byk all the time. I have to admit that I was surprised to hear how strongly he has sided with the horsemen on this issue. Although I think he may have a few good points, overall I disagree with him.

Byk never exactly gives tough interviews. If you are looking for Mike Wallace, well Byk insn't in the same neighborhood.

He seems to be a good guy. You never hear him bad mouth anybody. He obviously really enjoys the game and the people in it.

I say leave the guy alone. He is entitled to his opinion, and he and his show are not what is wrong with the game. His show is really very good, with a great range of guests that you cannot get access to anywhere else and he is a friend to the game.

[Cangamble]

It's obvious to me that the large share of the wagering loss is due to the lousy economy. With the price of everything from food to gasoline to heating oil to water going up by sizeable percentages, the discretionary income of many households has been slashed. From opening day at Santa Rosa, one fan said,

“I usually come out with $400 or $500,” said Chole, a physical education teacher at Novato High School. “This year, I came out with $100. I’m not betting as much. I’m just here for the atmosphere.”

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080723/SPORTS/401930435/1033/NEWS&title=County_fair_race_fans_rein_in_spending

Betting on horse races is a luxury, and when tight times arrive some luxuries have to take a back seat for a while.

I doubt it. Usually at times of bad economies, gambling goes on the rise.
I doubt people are buying less lottery tickets or sports betting less either.
It is just that horse racing is viewed as a losing proposition right now for most gamblers without having life changing lottery scores associated with it. Sports betting has enough long term winners which makes it not an automatic losing proposition.

[Cangamble]

I like Steve Byk. He is a good guy. However, right now, he is running DT Stables with trainer Chuck Simon. I doubt he is unbiased on the issue. You have to listen with that in mind.
It is also possible that Byk is anti-racing exec more than he is pro-horsemen or pro-player.

[Cangamble]

Most states are setting records. The gamblers are out there, they are just jumping ship from the SS Racetrack.
http://news.google.com/news?q=lottery%20sales&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_en___CA215&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn

[JustRalph]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080724102945.htm
Why poor people play the lottery

[Cangamble]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080724102945.htm
Why poor people play the lottery
Historically, the majority of those who played horses were low income/unemployed as well. For many of the reasons cited in the article you linked.

During bad economic times, gambling usually rises, so the excuse that the economy is causing betting to plummet doesn't hold water.

[ezrabrooks]

Historically, the majority of those who played horses were low income/unemployed as well. For many of the reasons cited in the article you linked.

During bad economic times, gambling usually rises, so the excuse that the economy is causing betting to plummet doesn't hold water.

CG, do you really believe that the majority of the horse wagering handle is from "low income/unemployed"?

Ez

[Cangamble]

CG, do you really believe that the majority of the horse wagering handle is from "low income/unemployed"?

Ez
Historically, when the track and bookies were the only way to go, the bulk of the patrons were low income or unemployed. But the majority of the betting most likely came from those in higher brackets.

[DeanT]

Del Mar handle down. Purse cut possible.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/ci_9990584

[Cangamble]

Del Mar handle down. Purse cut possible.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/ci_9990584
I already reported that on my blog. Couto wants to blame gas prices, meanwhile overall betting is still down 6%. It probably wouldn't be down that much if they signed a deal with PTC. But kickback money is non refundable in most cases:)

[Cangamble]

For the life of me, I don't understand why PTC is shunned when it comes to getting California racing.
I'm only kidding about kickbacks. I'm sure someone as reputable as Drew Couto would never be involved in such illegal activities. But still, he hasn't given a good reason for why he hasn't taken PTC. I wonder what the reason is.

[trying2win]

Del Mar handle down. Purse cut possible.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/ci_9990584

DEAN:

Thanks for the link to the story. Speaking of stories...it's the 'same old story' whenever parimutuel handle is down...instead of blaming real reasons like the ADW policies of the TOC, another race track official takes the path of least resistance and blames the usual...bad economy...high gas prices etc. Joe Harper, you forgot to blame native casino competition and hot dry weather as well...you're slipping up!

Possible purse cuts on the way? If it becomes a reality, you can be sure California horsemen won't be happy and they'll be looking for something to blame. Or, will they be looking for not something,but someone to blame? If they are wise, I can guess who that someone might be.

I didn't agree with some of the deals Ron Geary made with horsemen over ADW signal rates this meet at Ellis Park. However, in my opinion Ron got it right for the many ADW options he gave for bettors. Voila! Betting soared on opening weekend at ELP! I assume betting has continued at a strong pace since then. If so, can purse increases for ELP horsemen be far behind? I wonder if many California horsemen are following the parimutuel handle news of Del Mar vs Ellis Park? If so, I wonder if a lighbulb will go on and they see real reasons for parimutuel handle increase vs parimutuel decrease?


T2W

[rrbauer]

Handle in PA down, yet race days and # of races up. More is less! No doubt to be solved by a raise in takeout (which at 30% or 31% on some exotics stands as the height of arrogance/ignorance in the US).

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/46346.htm?id=46346&source=rss


From the article:
The PGCP report shows total handle in Pennsylvania (live and imported signals at racetracks, off-track betting parlors, and through account wagering) decreased 4.39% from $974.8 million in 2006 to $931.9 million in 2007. Thoroughbred handle dropped from $777.6 million in 2006 to $741.9 million in 2007, while Standardbred handle dipped from $197.2 million in 2006 to $190 million in 2007.

On-track handle on live racing held its own, though an increase in the number of race days played a major role. On-track live handle in 2007 was $40.9 million, down slightly from $41.3 million the previous year.

Of the $625.3 million in total handle on Pennsylvania racing last year, 80.4% came from out-of-state betting outlets, the report states. On-track accounted for 6.5%, off-track 3.8%, and account wagering 2.3%.

Not surprisingly for many tracks with slots and higher purses, export handle (to in-state and out-of-state outlets) is on the rise. It increased 10.8% ($493.7 million to $547 million) from 2006 to 2007.

Total race days increased 10.8%, from 756 in 2006 to 838 in 2007, while number of races increased 15% from 7,958 in 2006 to 9,153 in 2007.

[Cangamble]

I won't bet Philly Park out of principle. 30% triactor takeouts........They can GFTs

[JustRalph]

They can GFTs


wow, took me a couple of seconds to figure that one out.......... :ThmbUp:

[NJ Stinks]

I won't bet Philly Park out of principle. 30% triactor takeouts........They can GFTs

I live near Philly Park and never bet the trifectas or superfectas there. One would think only a sucker would but apparently that's not true. (They got around $37K today per Trifecta. I like to believe most people don't know the takeout rate rather than don't care.)

A while ago I got into e-mail exchanges with Keith Jones, announcer and Publicity Director at Philly Park about the 30% takeout rate. The bottom line was if I don't like the takeout rate, just don't play those bets. Thanks, Keith.

Anyway, I believe betting is down in the 2nd quarter for 4 reasons:

1. No Calder. I think a lot of people like playing Calder around the country. It's usually quite playable. (I side with the horsemen there. And I'm not a horseman.)

2. Churchill Downs is usually loaded with big fields in their spring meet - especially after the Belmont until the end of CD's spring meet. This year the fields were small - and even worse uncompetitive for the most part. That had to hurt racing handle in general.

We may find other tracks to play in place of Calder and CD but chances are we cut back on our bets when doing so.

3. DRF screwed us in June as far as I'm concerned. (I live in South Jersey.) First off, I don't mind playing Finger Lakes once in a while but I don't want their PP's when Arlington is running on their turf course! Secondly, they kept giving us Calder when we couldn't bet it. Now we can play Calder but don't get it! :mad:

4. Polytrack. I've seen enough to believe Baffert when he says it makes fast horses slow and vice-versa. Hence, I bet a lot at Saratoga and a little at Del Mar.


Finally, I believe people will always find gambling money just like smokers always find money to smoke.

[Cangamble]

NJ, I understand that most people don't care or even understand track takeouts, but they do understand that they go broke quicker than playing any other form of gambling. It causes disillisionment and lack of interest. People have it in their minds that they will go broke most of the time when they go to the track.
And the 30% takeout does affect price sensitive players like me. I won't even handicap a race in Philly, let alone bet it pari-mutuelly. Except for when I'm going nuts on Betfair (which doesn't happen much these days), I won't even look at a Philly form.

[NJ Stinks]

Here's the takeout at Philly Park per DRF.com, Cangamble:



Takeout Information Win, place, and show: 17%
Daily Double and Exacta: 20%
Pick 3: 26%
Trifecta and Superfecta: 30%


Philly's WPS, DD, and exacta takeouts are as good as or better than most tracks excluding NYRA, CD, and Keeneland.

I was hoping slot revenue might lead to a reduction in takeout at Philly Park but it hasn't happened.

[jonnielu]

"Our industry is in the midst of a challenging period with discretionary entertainment dollars tighter than they have been for several years,” he said in a statement.
*************************************
Entertainment dollars tight? How is sports attendance doing? I'll bet lottery ticket sales and sports betting are continuuing on their upward path too.

No, horse racing needs to compete by giving customers a bigger bang for their buck, or they need to get into the lottery business and have $25 million guaranteed jackpots.


I think that you should demonstrate to management how valuable you are by withdrawing from horseracing yourselves. Start playing poker online and everyday you can fax racing management the report on how much handle they lost because your group understands that racing is not the only game in town and online poker has more bang for the buck.

That might be a way of teaching those dummies a thing or two.

Why should they pay attention to you if you are still willing to fight in order to make a bet at Calder, while listing all the shortcomings of horseracing?

jdl

[rrbauer]

"Average daily wagering on Lone Star Park's live racing, both on and off track, slipped 2.3% to $1.63 million from $1.67 million in 2007. In addition, average daily on-track wagering, which includes betting by on-track customers on both Lone Star Park's live races and simulcast races imported by the track, was $1.03 million, a 6.1% decrease from $1.09 million last year."

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/46356.htm?id=46356&source=rss

[rrbauer]

Here's the takeout at Philly Park per DRF.com, Cangamble:



Takeout Information Win, place, and show: 17%
Daily Double and Exacta: 20%
Pick 3: 26%
Trifecta and Superfecta: 30%


Philly's WPS, DD, and exacta takeouts are as good as or better than most tracks excluding NYRA, CD, and Keeneland.

I was hoping slot revenue might lead to a reduction in takeout at Philly Park but it hasn't happened.

Their takeout on straight, DD's and Exacta's is about average for the country. Most of the high-handle venues have lower takeout rates than the PA tracks. You can see them all, conveniently, at:

http://www.trackthieves.com/Takeout1.html

On July 27, PHA handled about $20K total on their seven (7) P3-pools and one (1) Superfecta pool did $7K. It's hard to say if those are just unpopular bets or if there is some price sensitivity there also.

It is disappointing to me also that PA hasn't seen fit to lower takeout rates in the wake of their bonanza from slot revenues. However, IMO it is only a matter of time before the pols in that state decide that society has better uses for that revenue than to use it to subsidize horss racing.

And, as for Keith Jones' suggestion (in another post), I've taken it one step farther: I don't, won't and haven't bet a penny on horse racing in PA for years.

[DeanT]

I think that you should demonstrate to management how valuable you are by withdrawing from horseracing yourselves. Start playing poker online and everyday you can fax racing management the report on how much handle they lost because your group understands that racing is not the only game in town and online poker has more bang for the buck.

That might be a way of teaching those dummies a thing or two.

Why should they pay attention to you if you are still willing to fight in order to make a bet at Calder, while listing all the shortcomings of horseracing?

jdl

Johnnie,

That is what has happened the last ten years right before your very eyes. We would probably be at 20B bet if we simply grew in line with inflation. Instead we are down to 14b from 15b. People are speaking loudly and clearly with their dollars.

To add insult to injury, this loss has happened with the greatest invention to hit gambling, ever, the Internet. Before the Internet volumes on the stock exchanges were a drop in the bucket compared to after it. ETrade and companies like that grew tremendously, like any business would when you bring it into people's homes. We have left billions on the table. Not only have we not grown handles, they have shrunk!

[jonnielu]

Johnnie,

That is what has happened the last ten years right before your very eyes. We would probably be at 20B bet if we simply grew in line with inflation. Instead we are down to 14b from 15b. People are speaking loudly and clearly with their dollars.

To add insult to injury, this loss has happened with the greatest invention to hit gambling, ever, the Internet. Before the Internet volumes on the stock exchanges were a drop in the bucket compared to after it. ETrade and companies like that grew tremendously, like any business would when you bring it into people's homes. We have left billions on the table. Not only have we not grown handles, they have shrunk!

So you figure that management has made no response to this?

[DeanT]

That is why horseplayers formed organizations like HANA and the Self Appointed Fan Committee, John. They don't think we are doing a good job in racing in bringing the product to a 21st century customer.

All we have to do is look at Arizona. Last year they passed a law making it a crime to bet a horse over the internet from their state. And then we complain wagering is down? Would Amazon.com grow if states passed laws that said you could not buy a book over the Internet? We're a mess dude.

[highnote]

It simply should not be a crime to make a bet over the internet. In fact, very few state attorney generals are going to prosecute anyone who does -- even Arizona attorney generals.

If a state wants to prohibit gambling in public places, fine. I can understand that. Although, I can't see how a state like Ohio can not allow slot machines while at the same time allow the sales of lottery tickets. Talk about hypocritical. But that's another fight.

If a person wants to sit at their computer and play a hand of poker or bet a horse race using an advanced deposit wagering account over the internet I see nothing illegal about it. The fact that some states say it is illegal seems unconstitutional to me.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The government has no authority to prevent us from pursuing this type of happiness. So if horseplayers band together in a large coalition we can bring about change. If horseplayers agree to bet amongst themselves in order to pursue a certain type of Happiness, then no one can tell us that we can not engage in this activity -- especially given the fact that our activities have no effect on others who are not participating. One could argue that outsiders are indirectly affected by people who gamble. But it is not gambling that is the problem. It is the person who is gambling. Gambling is neutral.

This is an issue I'm sure most horseplayers would like to see addressed.

My advice is to bet online whenever and wherever and with whomever you want. And if anyone is prevented from doing so, then the whole body of horseplayers should come together in defense of this person and oppose any attempt to restrict online betting activity.

[trigger]

Johnnie,

That is what has happened the last ten years right before your very eyes. We would probably be at 20B bet if we simply grew in line with inflation. Instead we are down to 14b from 15b. People are speaking loudly and clearly with their dollars.

To add insult to injury, this loss has happened with the greatest invention to hit gambling, ever, the Internet. Before the Internet volumes on the stock exchanges were a drop in the bucket compared to after it. ETrade and companies like that grew tremendously, like any business would when you bring it into people's homes. We have left billions on the table. Not only have we not grown handles, they have shrunk!

One of the major catalysts to the surge in investment volume was the tremendous drop in commissions on trades for all traders led by internet brokerage companies......racing needs a comparable drop in commissions/takeout for all bettors in order to generate a similar internet induced surge in handle.

[rrbauer]

One of the major catalysts to the surge in investment volume was the tremendous drop in commissions on trades for all traders led by internet brokerage companies......racing needs a comparable drop in commissions/takeout for all bettors in order to generate a similar internet induced surge in handle.

That's what the rebates from the ADW operators is all about. Right now, the problem is the monopoly-mentalities that are trying to block that.

[jonnielu]

[QUOTE]
That is why horseplayers formed organizations like HANA and the Self Appointed Fan Committee, John. They don't think we are doing a good job in racing in bringing the product to a 21st century customer.


This is a separate issue, management does a terrible job does a terrible job of bringing the show into the home, and they don't seem to have any reasonable idea of how to even start doing it well. They are just pumping grandpa's house feed into the cable.

But, that does not mean that they have done nothing to address the issue. HRTV is a joint venture of CDI and Magna, they are trying, just not to the doing stage yet. Apparently, they formed HRTV to do the job, and then forgot to give them the job to do, maybe it would help them out if you would tell them about the product you want, they might just think that you are happy with grandpa's feed, because nobody at HRTV has the stones to tell them how inadequate it is. I figure that if HRTV is a joint venture of CDI and Magna, there probably is no one to set a direction, if it doesn't sit well with both principles. But, they are at least horse people, so you've probably got a better shot of getting them in motion.


All we have to do is look at Arizona. Last year they passed a law making it a crime to bet a horse over the internet from their state. And then we complain wagering is down? Would Amazon.com grow if states passed laws that said you could not buy a book over the Internet? We're a mess dude.

So what can people do? Obviously, this is an attempt to protect revenues from the home track. Tell the legislators that when they repeal that law, you well start betting the home track again, if, the home track is willing to compete for your dollar just like the rest.

People will have to correct government on this. Same deal with IRS withholding, government will never correct themselves on these issues.

But, horseracing's executives are far from the only ones that couldn't see the full potential of the internet in 1995. It is a blunder that was made by many businesses. How many really figured that it would ever be used for anything besides porn in 1995 anyway. Many thought it would collapse by '98.

So racing has a lot of catch-up to do, there is no arguement, and what difference does it make now whether the full blame is properly assigned? The question is, can horseracing recover from this blunder? I say that the recovery is already underway, just like the screw-up was already underway in 1998. The real problem is, as it has always been, that it is largely unseen.

I think that you should step back a few seconds and just look at the message that you are sending out there. I've been reading this board for some time and I've got to say, I don't get much that is positive about horse racing. What I do get is, that nobody can win, you can't beat the game, don't choose this for a proffession, etc. etc. I think that you have gotten it across quite well.

Ask the guy in front of you in the checkout line why he is buying a lotto ticket instead of betting $2 on a 1/1 Daily Double for a pair of 5f races. He would probably tell you that he has a chance on lotto, but he has heard tell that you can't beat the races. That is the sad state of affairs, people think that they can win at those games, that is why they are playing them.

When they think that they can win at horseracing, their asses will be in the seats. I think that you might do better for racing by embracing the fact that any entrant might win at Saratoga, and everybody has a shot, because it is the fact, and it means that you have a shot too, spread the good word.

jdl

[DeanT]

John,

As much as you want to make it so, it is not. Mike Maloney in an interview was asked how many people are doing what he is doing. His answer "a couple of hundred"

Conversely I asked an overseas friend who plays racing on betfair and is professional "how many people are doing what you are doing". His answer "probably 20,000 of us"

Therein lies the problem and sugarcoating it as much as you want, the answer remains the same, and a plain of the nose on our face.

There are upwards of 350 million people in North America, it is an 8 trillion dollar economy, it possesses some of the most intelligent and enterprising people in the Universe, there are literally 100's of thousands of poker playing and sports betting pros, yet the racing market is a pitiful $15B and we have only a handful of people playing racing for a living. We bet only slightly more per capita than Turkey. It is a hard game to win at, you have to be living in a cave to not know that, and the fans know it too. Those are the facts.

We are here to change that and make this game much more winnable, and if it is it can grow. We might be kicking Turkey's ass soon with some breaks.

And before you choose to knock me somehow (if you were going to say it) I am doing just fine at racing, thanks.

[rrbauer]

[QUOTE=DeanT]


HRTV is a joint venture of CDI and Magna, they are trying, just not to the doing stage yet. Apparently, they formed HRTV to do the job, and then forgot to give them the job to do, maybe it would help them out if you would tell them about the product you want, they might just think that you are happy with grandpa's feed, because nobody at HRTV has the stones to tell them how inadequate it is. I figure that if HRTV is a joint venture of CDI and Magna, there probably is no one to set a direction, if it doesn't sit well with both principles. But, they are at least horse people, so you've probably got a better shot of getting them in motion.






HRTV was started by MEC about 6 years ago to get Stronach's tracks and content on television when they wouldn't play the game TVG's way. CDI became involved with HRTV about two years ago when they decided to end their exclusive arrangements with TVG and recognized that they needed a platform for televising their tracks' racing and did not want to start another racing channel to support their Twin Spires ADW operation. MEC welcomed them because it helped share the expenses of a losing operation and it provided more content for their channel in competition with TVG. I have not watched HRTV in about a year but it didn't look any different to me then, than it did before CDI got involved.

Because of TVG's affiliation with Fox they have been better positioned in a media sense than has HRTV which has no network affiliation and still operates, I believe, from a rudimentary set at the Santa Anita racetrack. But, now that TVG has been sold as part of the Gemstar-TV Guide package they are being shopped in an attempt to "spin them off" from Macrovision since their business doesn't align with other Macrovision entities.

At the same time there are rumors that CDI is not happy with the HRTV arrangement from a value-added perspective so that the joint venture may not extend beyond the terms of the current contract.

So what we have currently is two firms, both losing money, both in a state of flux and both under stout constraints from a cost-control perspective. Their game, like it or not, is survival. Hardly an environment in which to innovate and look for product enhancement.

[NJ Stinks]

rrbauer, HRTV has improved significantly in the last year. They covered the Virginia Derby live at Colonial Downs recently and I thoroughly enjoyed the coverage.

TVG has better "hosts" but the gap is closing. As I said in another post, TVG sounds like the Home Shopping Club. HRTV doesn't.

I prefer HRTV's soft sell. I can't believe I'm alone.

[rrbauer]

rrbauer, HRTV has improved significantly in the last year. They covered the Virginia Derby live at Colonial Downs recently and I thoroughly enjoyed the coverage.

TVG has better "hosts" but the gap is closing. As I said in another post, TVG sounds like the Home Shopping Club. HRTV doesn't.

I prefer HRTV's soft sell. I can't believe I'm alone.

I'll take your word on it. Since I switched from Dish to DirecTV last summer I no longer have access to HRTV so other than standing near their set for a couple races in April when I was at Santa Anita I haven't been up on what they're doing.

I think there are plenty of folks who dislike TVG so by default HRTV gets their vote.

[jonnielu]

I'll take your word on it. Since I switched from Dish to DirecTV last summer I no longer have access to HRTV so other than standing near their set for a couple races in April when I was at Santa Anita I haven't been up on what they're doing.

I think there are plenty of folks who dislike TVG so by default HRTV gets their vote.

Perhaps the two enemies should get over themselves, and start presenting/promoting racing as well as it can be. Actually, they are the ones that should buy Hialeah in another joint venture and build the 21st century "take it to the viewer" model there.

jdl