breakdowns

[KMS]

Are their data anywhere comparing breakdowns on turf to breakdowns on dirt or plastic? I'm curious how they stack up. Also, how do quarterhorses compare? I admittedly haven't seen as many QH races as I have TB, but despite going hell for leather out of the gate, I don't believe I've ever seen one pull up, although I'm sure it happens on occasion.

[Bruddah]

this weekend on the "new plastic" surface. Gee! I thought the synthetic stuff was to be the saviour of the racing equine? Where are the Congressional hearings now? Another strange thing. Plastic surfaces were not supposed to need the maintenance and watering that real dirt required. NOT! They are spending more on daily maintenace and watering at Del Mar.

Let's see: 1] no decrease in breakdowns 2] needs millions for improved drainage 3]requires more maintenace and watering 4] needs re waxing every year 5] probably needs to be replaced every couple of years. 5] more "blow back" but it stings less according to Jockeys.

Gosh! Don't you just love the stupidity of the leaders of this sport? :faint:

I have noticed how quiet the proponets of the plastic have been this weekend. They were hoping the two deaths at Del Mar would just fade away quietly. What say ye, plastic people?

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

In the state of Cali, field sizes are up and breakdowns are down since the switch to synth. It may need maintenance at Dmr but it doesn't need a lot at GG or, I believe, at Hol.

[Marshall Bennett]

Curious as to the rate for those UK jump races . Maybe not the same as a breakdown but seem 2 or 3 fall in every race . Brutal !!

[Bruddah]

I suppose the jumper/hunt crowd, with their nuevo riche attitudes, don't want no stink'n plazsteeks. You know artificial shrubs, vines etc.. They might be forced to report injuries to Congress. :D :lol:

[Bruddah]

In the state of Cali, field sizes are up and breakdowns are down since the switch to synth. It may need maintenance at Dmr but it doesn't need a lot at GG or, I believe, at Hol.

don't give me yours or anyone elses estimates. Show and prove hard numbers. The plastic crowd keeps reporting this as facts. When in actuality it ain't so. Have another drink on the souse (hic cup-house) HorsePlayer.

All I have ever seen is a concerted effort by the plastic crowd is to play shell games with the numbers. :eek:

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Show me some hard numbers of your own instead of citing one single day at one particular track. I live in NoCal and go to GG a bit and I can tell you, from first-hand experience, that the synth has been superb.

[joanied]

Curious as to the rate for those UK jump races . Maybe not the same as a breakdown but seem 2 or 3 fall in every race . Brutal !!

I agree. I can't even watch the Grand National...who in hell wants to see horses falling like they do in these jump races...the jumps are way too high, and way too wide... why on earth would you want to make a horse jump over a 6 foot fence, or try to get across a ditch, filled with water, that's 8 foot wide... if folks think the concusion on a race horse's legs/feet is hard, imagine all that weight/force coming down all at once on two front legs/feet...geeze.
The Olympics and other equine events that highlight cross country jumping are the worst....these horses, usually in high heat conditions, are made to travel miles jumping over and across ridiculous obsticals...if you watch any of these types of events...horses fall all the time.
Right on, Marshall B...brutal !!

[Living Flame]

They were hoping the two deaths at Del Mar would just fade away quietly. What say ye, plastic people?


Wait...Two horses broke down over the weekend at Del Mar? Where do you get your info from? I've been looking online and can't find it. I'm trying to start keeping statistics on such things (I used to do it a long time ago).

[Tampa Russ]

DEL MAR ---- Del Mar's Polytrack claimed its second horse in three days during training hours when Runforthemoneybaby, a 3-year-old filly, suffered a broken right sesamoid Sunday morning and had to euthanized.

Dakota Padre, a 4-year-old gelding, suffered a similar injury on Friday morning, but he was pulling up after a workout. Runforthemoneybaby was in the midst of a workout under jockey Tyler Baze when she suffered the fatal injury.

"She was just breezing," trainer Jeff Mullins said. "She went to switch leads and took a bad step. It was just a freak thing."

Last year, six horses were fatally injured on the Polytrack, four in workouts and two during races.

Runforthemoneybaby, a daughter of Unusual Heat, was purchased last summer after she finished third in a $100,000 maiden claimer. She went on to finish third in the Grade I Oak Leaf Stakes during the Oak Tree meet at Santa Anita and win the Nov. 3 Cal Cup Juvenile Fillies.

Runforthemoneybaby had run exclusively on the grass this year with a second and a third. She earned $187,876 in eight starts.

"She was one of the best 3-year-old fillies in my barn," Mullins said.

The trainer has been one of staunchest supporters of Del Mar's decision to switch from dirt to Polytrack prior to the 2007 meet.

"I have no concerns about the track," Mullins said.

After trainers complained a year ago about the surface being too loose during the afternoon races, Del Mar added a layer of wax this spring and watered the track at least once during racing hours on the first four days of the meet.

Though some Del Mar officials have expressed concern about the breakdowns coming so early in the meet, track president Joe Harper said he has complete faith in the surface.

"I'm concerned about the breakdowns," Harper said, "but I'm not concerned about the track."

Harper said he didn't think the surface was too compact from the additional watering.

Harper said he did receive several phone calls before the meet from veterinarians at Hollywood Park warning him about sore horses coming down to Del Mar.

"They told me I had some sore horses coming my way," Harper said, "but I wouldn't put those two horses in that category."

Del Mar vets have scratched a number of horses this meet, some as late as the morning before a race and others at the starting gate.

"I've been in the barn area in the mornings, and I can see there are horses that aren't sound," Harper said. "I can't keep them off the racetrack in the mornings, but I can in the afternoons.

"I've told our vets if there are any doubts, scratch the horse."

Sincity, a 3-year-old filly, was scratched at the gate in Sunday's first race when track stewards reported she "didn't warm up properly."

[joanied]

That is a shame and very sad. But, I don't know...is the surface at fault? Is poly safer than dirt...IMHO... we are going to have breakdowns on either surface as long as we run horses that are not quite sound. They say the filly was sound and took that infamous 'bad step'... but who knows? really, any vet will tell you not all bad things show up on xrays, or in a soundess exam...taking Runforthemoneybaby as an example...she may have had a tiny hairline fracture that didn't show up on xrays, that wouldn't show any outward signs like heat, swelling, or her 'not going right'...then, all it takes is a 'bad step'...regardless of what surface it is, and she breaks an ankle.
What really needs to be done, is that every horse entered on a card, regardless of the track, needs a thorough pre race exam...not just a gate vet watching the horses warm up...but a full exam...at the barn...xrays and the whole nine yards. it sounds like a huge undertaking, and it'll probably cost...but it'd be cheaper than loosing a horse, and better for racing because maybe that one horse ready for a breakdown won't be allowed to run.
They are close to having the ability to find these hairline fractures that xrays don't see, and that will be a huge step in the right direction...meantime, caution is key....and it's up to the trainers & owners to be as sure as they can, that any horse entered, must be sound. You'll always have those 'freak' accidents, but breakdowns would most probably go way down.

And, I may get clobbered for this...but I beleive a deep, sandy, well cushioned dirt track is just as safe, or safer, than poly...'they' have a long way to go yet before anyone can state in a factual manner that poly IS safer than a good dirt track.

Just my two cents worth.

[Tampa Russ]

And, I may get clobbered for this...but I beleive a deep, sandy, well cushioned dirt track is just as safe, or safer, than poly...'they' have a long way to go yet before anyone can state in a factual manner that poly IS safer than a good dirt track.



Having witnessed 1000's of races and many morning workouts at Tampa Bay Downs, I would have to agree. I don't think it's possible to have a safer surface than the current main track at TAM. However, I would think it's more a factor of doing the best you can with the material that is available in each location. Probably very challenging at a number of places.

[Tom]

DRF headlines today say Jockey Club is starting a website to list breakdowns and collect data about them. So far,70 tracks have signed on.

[Bruddah]

DRF headlines today say Jockey Club is starting a website to list breakdowns and collect data about them. So far,70 tracks have signed on.


The Jockey Club should do a good job adding the numbers. Now if the horsemen and tracks do theirs, we should maybe have something definitive in about five years. Now some organization should gather the information on costs and days missed due to weather. Remember, rain and cold has stopped some platic tracks, just like dirt tracks. Then collect costs of maintenace etc. Let's do a real comparison.

Any other Industry or Business would have gathered statistics on dirt before switching. In the case of Thoroughbred Racing they put the "Jockey before the Horse" and switched to plastic before doing any studies. Typical of Race Track mgmt. and the Industry. Why the rush? Probably has to do with Money and lining pockets. Ummmm, ya think?

[cj]

I've watched plenty of Quarterhorse races on TVG and never seen one break down. Am I just lucky, or do they seem to be a lot more sturdy than thoroughbreds?

[Track Collector]

I think it will be very interesting to see how breakdowns are compared for Synthetic Surfaces versus dirt. In many cases, one would think that surfaces that were just installed (regardless of the type) would have fewer breakdowns than dirt surfaces that have not been maintained properly for years. The real comparision should be between well-maintained surfaces of both types.

I do agree with others who believe that some racing jurisdictions (CA) have made premature mandates before enough information was know about the "new" surface materials.

[beenacoach]

QH's generally have shorter cannon bones and more bone over all than TB's and so break down less frequently....but it does still happen and I have seen it many times over the years.

I dont care what kind of horse or what kind of surface if you are racing horses there are going to be break downs. It is unavoidable. Doesnt mean we shouldnt work to limit them but dont expect to ever end them completely.

[46zilzal]

I wrote an article recently which included a review of a trainer in Vancouver from the 60's and many of his horses average over 80 starts, ran often on three days rest, as MANY horses did in the bygone days before breeding for speed and hiding genetic problems with medication diluted the bone in the thoroughbred to hardly being able to hold up their bodies.

Unless there is a concerted effort to build up the bone in these animals and TAKE OUT THE MASKING of injury/soreness with steroids and NSAID's, the future of the breed in North American will be at increasingly shorter distances with more and more breakdowns. I am seeing an alarming number of breakdowns in first time starters, buted up and full of furosemide when they have NEVER Shown they needed either of them.

[Marshall Bennett]

I've watched plenty of Quarterhorse races on TVG and never seen one break down. Am I just lucky, or do they seem to be a lot more sturdy than thoroughbreds?
I've seen them go down at Los Al on more than one occasion .

[cj]

I wrote an article recently which included a review of a trainer in Vancouver from the 60's and many of his horses average over 80 starts, ran often on three days rest, as MANY horses did in the bygone days before breeding for speed and hiding genetic problems with medication diluted the bone in the thoroughbred to hardly being able to hold up their bodies.

Unless there is a concerted effort to build up the bone in these animals and TAKE OUT THE MASKING of injury/soreness with steroids and NSAID's, the future of the breed in North American will be at increasingly shorter distances with more and more breakdowns. I am seeing an alarming number of breakdowns in first time starters, buted up and full of furosemide when they have NEVER Shown they needed either of them.

This was kind of my point. QHs are certainly breeding for speed and they don't seem to break down nearly as often. I assume they use the same medications as well.

[joanied]

QH's generally have shorter cannon bones and more bone over all than TB's and so break down less frequently....but it does still happen and I have seen it many times over the years.

I dont care what kind of horse or what kind of surface if you are racing horses there are going to be break downs. It is unavoidable. Doesnt mean we shouldnt work to limit them but dont expect to ever end them completely.

I was just going to reply to CJ about this...
beenacoach answered correctly...QH's do tend to have a shorter cannon and more bone oeverall than Tb's...although, with the trend towards incorporating more TB blood into the race bred QH's, that may not be the case in a decade or so... the racing QH breeders are seeking out very fast TB's to cross with more now than ever.
My mares are Tb, but considering everything, I bred them to race bred QH's to get registered Appendix horses to race (or in some cases, be Barrel race horses)...I had QH breeders come to me to buy my babies left & right...especially one mare's babies that I had, she was a Storm Cat mare, out of a Shecky Green mare...very popular with Qh race folks.

Anyway...that is the reason they hold up better....besides the fact for the most part, they only travel 440 yards.

[joanied]

I wrote an article recently which included a review of a trainer in Vancouver from the 60's and many of his horses average over 80 starts, ran often on three days rest, as MANY horses did in the bygone days before breeding for speed and hiding genetic problems with medication diluted the bone in the thoroughbred to hardly being able to hold up their bodies.

Unless there is a concerted effort to build up the bone in these animals and TAKE OUT THE MASKING of injury/soreness with steroids and NSAID's, the future of the breed in North American will be at increasingly shorter distances with more and more breakdowns. I am seeing an alarming number of breakdowns in first time starters, buted up and full of furosemide when they have NEVER Shown they needed either of them.

Good post, Zil :ThmbUp:

[joanied]

This was kind of my point. QHs are certainly breeding for speed and they don't seem to break down nearly as often. I assume they use the same medications as well.

CJ...beenacoach & me answered this...more bone, shorter cannons... I don't know anything about what and how much drugs they use...which would be kinda interesting to find out...do a search of some kind to see if many of the QH trainers get caught with positives. And as I mentioned, the QH breeders that breed to race, are infusing the breed with more & more TB blood...time will tell, but I think they are making a mistake doing that.

[joanied]

I think it will be very interesting to see how breakdowns are compared for Synthetic Surfaces versus dirt. In many cases, one would think that surfaces that were just installed (regardless of the type) would have fewer breakdowns than dirt surfaces that have not been maintained properly for years. The real comparision should be between well-maintained surfaces of both types.

I do agree with others who believe that some racing jurisdictions (CA) have made premature mandates before enough information was know about the "new" surface materials.

This may answer some of those questions...dirt vs synthetic, breakdowns in general....

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/46249.htm

[46zilzal]

This was kind of my point. QHs are certainly breeding for speed and they don't seem to break down nearly as often. I assume they use the same medications as well.
Different gait (short coupled "chopy" strides), different conformation (they are much lower to the ground, and have relatively shorter legs [to the T-bred] so the lever arm of each stirde prodcues less stress), there is no prolonged repetitve stress over long distances.

[joanied]

Different gait (short coupled "chopy" strides), different conformation (they are much lower to the ground, and have relatively shorter legs [to the T-bred] so the lever arm of each stirde prodcues less stress), there is no prolonged repetitve stress over long distances.

There ya go...well stated, Zil. They also break from the gate a bit differnt than the TB's...they dig in and break outta there in a downward motion...rather than the kind of leap a TB takes....not sure that matters, but there it is.

[classhandicapper]

I don't mean to for this to come off as uncaring because the opposite is the case. However, I was recently watching a "nature show" that just happned to be following some wild horses in the U.S for a period of time. It seemed the horses were getting injured on a pretty regular basis while chasing after each, other, competing etc.... I think the industry needs to make sure animal lovers realize that injuries and breakdowns are a normal part of the horse experience even in the wild. No matter what we do there are going to breakdowns.
IMO, the real problem is almost entirely a matter greed and the poor economics of the industry.

This industry needs to be dramatically overhauled so the economics make some sense. They are preposterous right now. If the economics are fixed there will be less pressure to run horses that shouldn't be in training, let alone racing. It would also then be easier to eliminate drugs from the game.

IMO, this industry needs a massive consolidation.

That may not be appealing to a lot of people in the industry, but doing the right thing over the long haul rarely is appealing in the short term when it comes to economics and business.

It's going to be tough to do the right things though. As long as government is involved in any way, shape, or form there will be massive levels of incompetence, corruption, and politics involved in decisions that would be better left to individuals.

[Cratos]

This excerpt speaks to the centrifugal force exterted onto the horse by the turns on the racetrack. The entire paper is much too lomg to publish on the PA Forum

Racetrack geometry

Several studies have reported a clustering of severe and fatal race day accidents at or near the home turn (Oikawa et al., 1994; Wilson et al., 1996; Clanton et al., 1991; JRA, 1991; Peloso et al., 1994; Hill et al., 1986). Fredricson et al. (1975) suggested that the increased risk of injury associated with turns is attributable to centrifugal force. Centrifugal force creates an outward pull on the horse and tends to divert the animal from the track. Studies in Standard-breds show that moving around corner abnormal gait and increased the temperature in the fetlock joint (Crawford and Leach, 1984)

Research in Thoroughbreds reported that when moving around a turn the strain on the outside limb was consistently more than that on the inside limb (Davies, 1996). The magnitude of the force and the difference in forces between the forelimbs is accentuated when speed is increased (Davies, 1996) and the radius of corner is reduced (Fredricson et al., 1975b).

Therefore, it follows that decreasing the speed that the horse enters the turn or increasing the radius of the turn will reduce the centrifugal force and possibly the risk of MSI (Fredricson et al., 1975a; Fredricson et al., 1975b). This is supported by evidence from a racetrack reconstruction in Japan (Oikawa et al., 1994). The third and forth turns were widened and an incline added in the straight between the two turns. Following reconstruction there was a reduction in racing times. Examination of injury rates pre and post reconstruction found a significant reduction in fatal MSI, Musculoskeletal Injuries

Another way of reducing the centrifugal force acting on the horse when it negotiates a turn is to increase the banking (Fredricson et al., 1975a; Fredricson et al., 1975b). The amount of banking required is dependent on the radii of the curve and the speed with which the horse enters the turn Adapted from Fredricson et al. (1975)

When a horse enters and exits a corner it must readjust its balance, thereby increasing the force on its (Fredricson et al., 1975a; Fredricson et al., 1975b). It is possible to minimize the unbalancing effect of corners by the use transitional curve that is curves with differing radii. The introduction of can be beneficial even if the curve is under banked. However, the unbalancing can only be fully reduced by adequate banking

Increasing the banking of semicircular curves and introducing transitional curves at one Scandinavian racetrack resulted in a marked reduction in gait asymmetry and heat in fetlock joint (Fredricson et al., 1975a; Fredricson et al., 1975b). These results suggest that the strain on the limbs whilst negotiating the corners had been reduced and it was hypothesized that this would reduce injury rates. Subsequent surveys of trainers at the reconstructed racetrack found that the majority perceived that there had been a reduction in injuries (Fredricson et al., 1976). However, there was no quantitative analysis of injury data pre and post track reconstruction.