Equibase restrictions on "databasing"?

[podonne]

The below text is taken directly from the Equibase terms and conditions. So, if I read this right, how can they restrict your right to store information you legally download? They'll sell you the information, but only if you promise not to keep it?


(c) You understand and agree that information acquired hereunder is provided for use in an online or hardcopy print environment. You agree that you will not download information acquired hereunder with the intent to database it for future use. EQUIBASE, at its sole discretion, will determine if user activity patterns indicate that information is being used for purposes other than handicapping in an online or hardcopy print environment. If EQUIBASE determines that information is being used for purposes other than handicapping in an online or hardcopy print environment, EQUIBASE shall immediately terminate any subscriptions, deactivate any accounts and no refunds will be issued.

P.S. I don't use them (directly), and now I'm glad I don't. I like "databasing", though I've never used it as a verb...

[cj]

I think you are reading too much into it. They don't want you reselling (or giving away) the data. I'm pretty sure that is the extent of it.

[podonne]

I think you are reading too much into it. They don't want you reselling (or giving away) the data. I'm pretty sure that is the extent of it.

I dunno, I'm usually not up on bashing these guys, because what they do is neccessary and valuable, but I thought the language around "an online or hardcopy print environment" was pretty scary. The verb, "to database" literally means "To put (data) into a database"* and they specifically forbid that. 6(a) handles distribution.

* database. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved July 14, 2008, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/database

[BillW]

I think Equibase has always maintained the posture that they can sue anyone for anything they please. Hence the threateningly (and vaguely) worded agreement.

[KMS]

I don't see how they could possibly know what you were doing with the data once it lands on your hard drive, with the possible exception of the aforementioned reselling example. And I'm not even sure about that, unless you were extremely blatant about it, ie saying on your website, "I'm using equibase figures without paying a commercial licenseing fee."

This is not something I would lose much sleep over. Of course, if the RIAA's lawyers have been whispering in their ear, all bets are off...

[DeanT]

If EQUIBASE determines that information is being used for purposes other than handicapping in an online or hardcopy print environment, EQUIBASE shall immediately terminate any subscriptions, deactivate any accounts and no refunds will be issued.

I hope they don't find out that I use my old printouts to start fires where I roast yummy marshmallows. If so, I could go very hungry.

[BillW]

I hope they don't find out that I use my old printouts to start fires where I roast yummy marshmallows. If so, I could go very hungry.

I think you're OK as long as you don't venture into the realm of smores! :p

[Tom]

Smores will pick more winner's than the EB speed figures, though.
Especially in Yum Brand sponsored races.:lol:

[richrosa]

I hope they don't find out that I use my old printouts to start fires where I roast yummy marshmallows. If so, I could go very hungry.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ajfortwengler]

I recently emailed them asking about their chart subscription and explicitly said I wanted to make a small "database" (I'm not sure what their definition of "database" is. I just wanted to keep data to create pars and such) for the ND Horse Park for personal use. They pointed me in the right direction and said nothing about it. I doubt they really care... unless it was a trap.

[Tom Barrister]

They can put whatever they want into their terms and conditions:


You agree that you will not download information acquired hereunder with the intent to database it for future use. EQUIBASE reserves the right to cut off your penis if you do.


Backing it up legally is another matter.

My opinion is that they can't enforce the database provision. I'm convinced that the courts would rule that a person who buys data from Equibase or an Equibase partner can do whatever is pleased with that data, provided such is for personal use.

[ranchwest]

I recently emailed them asking about their chart subscription and explicitly said I wanted to make a small "database" (I'm not sure what their definition of "database" is. I just wanted to keep data to create pars and such) for the ND Horse Park for personal use. They pointed me in the right direction and said nothing about it. I doubt they really care... unless it was a trap.

You're on file, man.

I don't know. Hey, as Donald Rumsfeld would say, "Who knows?"

[GameTheory]

What they are really saying is that they will cut you off if you download everything under the sun even though you are getting an "unlimited" subscription, and the databasing thing gives them the excuse to do so. They have other (i.e. expensive) options if you want a bunch of historical data for a database, for instance.

[Cratos]

The data that Equibase, DRF or anyone else sells is in public domain and you can do damn well what you please with it.

However the formatting of the data is privilege and they have copyrights to the format. Also if you look closely at the DRF charts and the Equibase charts you will see minute differences due to each company’s copyrights.

The “database” clause is there to allow Equibase to terminate your subscription without notice if they believe you are creating a database which could possibly make you a reseller of the data.

[podonne]

The data that Equibase, DRF or anyone else sells is in public domain and you can do damn well what you please with it.

However the formatting of the data is privilege and they have copyrights to the format. Also if you look closely at the DRF charts and the Equibase charts you will see minute differences due to each company’s copyrights.


Can you explain what you mean by this? The data I use for "databasing" is in comma delimited files, so are you saying that the format of the CSV is copyright, but the data inside isn't?

[podonne]

What they are really saying is that they will cut you off if you download everything under the sun even though you are getting an "unlimited" subscription, and the databasing thing gives them the excuse to do so. They have other (i.e. expensive) options if you want a bunch of historical data for a database, for instance.

Anyone ever price this out with Equibase? Maybe like a replication of 3 years of charts?

[Cratos]

Can you explain what you mean by this? The data I use for "databasing" is in comma delimited files, so are you saying that the format of the CSV is copyright, but the data inside isn't?

Correct, the racing data in horseracing is “public” meaning that the data is open to the public and it is not owned by anyone. For instance, if a horse run a 6f race with the following fractions: 23, 46, 1:10 and that info is displayed at the race track as public knowledge and is available to anyone at the time it is displayed, the data does not has proprietary ownership, but data like the Beyer speed figures are proprietary.

However if a provider captures the data (not BSFs) and put it into a useable format which is owned by the provider, the user who subscribes or buys the data from the provider cannot resell the data as formatted without the providers’ permission, but the user of the data can extract the data and put it into a proprietary format and resell it.

This would be a reason why Equibase would not want the user to build large data bases because they could potentially become a competitor

[highnote]

This would be a reason why Equibase would not want the user to build large data bases because they could potentially become a competitor


A monopoly does not like competition. In fact, it won't tolerate competition and will try to crush the competition with all its available means.

[socantra]

The data that Equibase, DRF or anyone else sells is in public domain and you can do damn well what you please with it.

However the formatting of the data is privilege and they have copyrights to the format.

I just finished rereading Steve Crist's Betting on Myself, and he mentioned that the high priced lawyers for The Racing Times believed that the presentation was proprietary, but also the chart callers comments and their estimation of beaten lengths at the intermediate points of call of the race were owned by the DRF.

Whether that would hold true now that the data is indirectly owned and distributed by the tracks themselves, would probably require several teams of high priced lawyers at least.

[xtb]

However if a provider captures the data (not BSFs) and put it into a useable format which is owned by the provider, the user who subscribes or buys the data from the provider cannot resell the data as formatted without the providers’ permission, but the user of the data can extract the data and put it into a proprietary format and resell it.

This would be a reason why Equibase would not want the user to build large data bases because they could potentially become a competitor

Whatever happened to the Ed Bain ordeal? Equibase went after him in a big way for selling his proprietary format trainer stats.

[podonne]

Correct, the racing data in horseracing is “public” meaning that the data is open to the public and it is not owned by anyone. For instance, if a horse run a 6f race with the following fractions: 23, 46, 1:10 and that info is displayed at the race track as public knowledge and is available to anyone at the time it is displayed, the data does not has proprietary ownership, but data like the Beyer speed figures are proprietary.

So there's a certain set of the data that is "public" and a certain set that is "proprietary", not just the format, but the pieces of data. I wonder if there is an easy way to distinguish (I doubt Equibase would give you an item by item list). What about the past performance information? Results? Exotic payoffs?

This is a can of worms. Technically by this reasoning if I used only "public" data to make my own "proprietary" figures, that would be ok to sell.

[raybo]

So there's a certain set of the data that is "public" and a certain set that is "proprietary", not just the format, but the pieces of data. I wonder if there is an easy way to distinguish (I doubt Equibase would give you an item by item list). What about the past performance information? Results? Exotic payoffs?

This is a can of worms. Technically by this reasoning if I used only "public" data to make my own "proprietary" figures, that would be ok to sell.

Most of the data Equibase sells is "public" data. Data that requires Equibase to "database" in order to sell the derivatives, whether those derivatives are proprietary or not, or data that is truly proprietary under contract with a third party, ie: Beyers, etc., is not "public" data.

Bottom line is: if Equibase determines that John Doe is downloading and/or storing their data and using it, or potentially using it, in a competitive manner (meaning competition for Equibase sales), they have the right to terminate John Doe's access to the data from Equibase. This doesn't mean John Doe can't get Equibase data from another vendor and database it for resell.

[Cratos]

I just finished rereading Steve Crist's Betting on Myself, and he mentioned that the high priced lawyers for The Racing Times believed that the presentation was proprietary, but also the chart callers comments and their estimation of beaten lengths at the intermediate points of call of the race were owned by the DRF.

Whether that would hold true now that the data is indirectly owned and distributed by the tracks themselves, would probably require several teams of high priced lawyers at least.

What is funny about the Equibase restriction is that they will allow you to subscribe and capture any chart in North America as far bas as 1990.

Assuming that there are approximately 70,000 races run per year a subscriber could conceivably built a database containing 1,260,000 races (about 20 gig of data) if the subscriber had the time and equipment.

Therefore the subscriber wouldn’t need Equibase or any other provider because they could easily update their database on a daily basis and become a reseller

However this entire issue raises a very salient question and that is what does the racetrack do for its customer? Racetracks have all of the raw data (including both text and video) which they could make available at a nominal price to their customer, the betting racing fan.

[rcapper]

Anyone ever price this out with Equibase? Maybe like a replication of 3 years of charts?

I'm curious as to the same thing.

Also thoughts on whether it is ok to share PDF Result Charts with others. I have most, but not all PDF Charts for Socal over the last year. I'd like to fill in the few holes that I have and would be willing to share what I have to do it.

[rcapper]

btw, anyone been cancelled by equibase for "databasing"?

[podonne]

Bottom line is: if Equibase determines that John Doe is downloading and/or storing their data and using it, or potentially using it, in a competitive manner (meaning competition for Equibase sales), they have the right to terminate John Doe's access to the data from Equibase. This doesn't mean John Doe can't get Equibase data from another vendor and database it for resell.

Well, if all the data comes from Equibase in the first place, can't they also require thier licensors not to sell it to John Doe as well?

[podonne]

However this entire issue raises a very salient question and that is what does the racetrack do for its customer? Racetracks have all of the raw data (including both text and video) which they could make available at a nominal price to their customer, the betting racing fan.

I, for one, agree. There must be some licensing agreement involved where they can make more licensing it to Equibase then they can selling it themselves

[raybo]

Well, if all the data comes from Equibase in the first place, can't they also require thier licensors not to sell it to John Doe as well?

Not enforceable or feasible.