Why do bad jockeys stay bad?

[Imriledup]

I was watching a replay of a race with an incredibly bad jockey challenging the lead down the lane. You can see that the bad jockey 'looks different' on the horse than a top rider looks. I'm not sure if its just the way the bad jockey sits on a horse or what, but this got me thinking.

If you are a bad jockey, you have to realize this, right? You have to realize you are a fixture in 101st place in your hometown rider standings when there are only 100 riders who ride there.

So, my question is this. If you are bad, why not try and figure out how to get better? Do these bad riders not realize that they 'look' awkward on a horse? You've seen these bad jocks ride, right? They look horrible in the seat, they just don't have that 'pleasing to the eye' look about them. Why not get a videotape of a top rider and try and emulate how that top rider sits on a horse?

Is this as hard as sending a man to the moon? Or, do these riders not even realize they are bad and just figure they don't get good mounts because of some other reason?

[boomman]

Although you are correct that many riders do stay at the bottom of their respective standings for many years, there have also been some incredible improving jockeys. The one that comes to mind immediately is Michael Baze. When he left for Monmouth a few summers ago, to say he needed some "polish" was putting it quite mildly. When he returned to Southern California it was hard to believe it was the same rider. IMHO he has improved 100%!:ThmbUp:

Boomer

[ryesteve]

So, my question is this. If you are bad, why not try and figure out how to get better?Why doesn't Shaq figure out how to shoot free throws? Why doesn't Ryan Howard try to figure out how to avoid striking out an average of twice every game? And these are guys who are MVPs to begin with. Imagine telling someone without talent to just "figure out how to get better". It's often easier said than done... especially for someone who's already gone as far as their ability can take them.

That's not to say that there aren't guys who are lazy and don't work at it... it's just that everyone's potential has limits. In a lot of cases, we might be seeing guys who've already reached theirs.

[Bruddah]

your post is about as well thought out and written as any post I have seen on this board. You have nailed it. We all have a Peter Principal involved in our lives, at some point and in most areas. :ThmbUp:

[Marshall Bennett]

Suppose its like any other occupation , some have it , others don't .

[toetoe]

Fingerpointing Toetoe, leaning over the rail postrace:

"Bad jockey ! BAAAAD JOCKEY !!"

[ryesteve]

your post is about as well thought out and written as any post I have seen on this board.Thanks, I appreciate that...

[JustRalph]

I think there is a limit to improvement. Some realize they are no longer improving and others don't. I would say a jock that doesn't get appreciably better over a two year period ought to be looking for a job at Disneyland. That is if they get a decent amount of mounts. Maybe it might take longer and a few more mounts for some. But there has to be a point where they get it. Risk versus return ????

[Greyfox]

No matter how much I practice golf, I could never beat Tiger Woods even in his present condition.

The ability to ride a thoroughbred is enhanced by balance, strength, timing, courage, and perceptual discrimination of types of space.
These are inherent gifts that some riders have more than others.
When all of those gifts come together you have a top rider.
Lesser riders have those gifts in varying amounts.
On top of that jockeys are prone to infirmities.
A riders knees may not allow him to ride as he would like to or as he did once upon a time. Yet he still needs to eek out a living and is willing to ride being the bottom of the barrel pick of most trainers.

[RaceBookJoe]

A few reasons might be
1. They dont recognize the problem therefore cant fix it.
2. They dont have the drive to improve their skills.
3. Its a catch-22 situation : they cant win with poor mounts, and trainers wont give them the better mounts until they start winning.
4. Some just dont have the ability whether they try to improve or not.
just a few thoughts rbj

[Imriledup]

Shaq doesn't improve his FT pctg because he doesn't have to, he's rich enough to buy his own jet, rich enough to not have to waste time, 50 a hundred million, a player, or nothing.

I'm talking about bad jockeys who have poor form sitting on a horse and you can watch them for years and they still have the same 'awkward' way of sitting. It can be as simple as hunching your back. I just think that if every bad jock would really put in the time and effort to get better, they would be able to at least LOOK like they have better 'form' on a horse.

RBJ has a good point about not caring to try and improve their skill level, that must be it.

Fox says that no matter how much he practices he can't beat Tiger...we'll i think that's probably true for every human on the planet. I just think that with hard work, you MIGHT be able to improve your game by just a little bit and you know the saying, every little bit helps.

So, to all you jockeys and agents out there....get a videotape of a top rider and try and have your jock LOOK like that top rider. See how that top guy sits on a horse, see how his back is parrallel to the ground and see how he holds his hands on the reigns and 'pumps' to hand ride a horse down the lane. Its not rocket science, it just takes a tight video shot of a top jock...i'm sure one is available somewhere to tigalookat.

[46zilzal]

Talent can only bloom with experience, instruction and practice. I recall hearing McCarron say that when he was a younger rider he would practice changing hands with the stick when he was hopelessly beaten, never missing an opportunity to practice his craft under the same conditions as he would be required to do later.

[Skanoochies]

Doesn`t say much for the trainers that keep riding these guys each year either.

[barn32]

Why don't bad horses improve? All you have to do is show them a video of a good horse running and they should be able to emulate that.

Somebody has to ride the bad horses. That's what bad jockeys are there for.

[Turfday]

A look at the "opposite side of the fence".....I think you all may have some comments on the link. I actually got a chuckle putting it together in a
sympathetic kind of way.

So what do these trainers tell their owners about the jockey they've got riding their horse? The only think I can think of is nepotism.

See link:

[Imriledup]

A look at the "opposite side of the fence".....I think you all may have some comments on the link. I actually got a chuckle putting it together in a
sympathetic kind of way.

So what do these trainers tell their owners about the jockey they've got riding their horse? The only think I can think of is nepotism.

See link:

Funny that if any colony had all those riders, someone would be leading rider with over 10 pct winners. Great point about the nepotism, i wonder what trainers tell their owners as to why their jock is 2 for 100...."but he's really good, he's just misunderstood!"

[john del riccio]

There are three criteria that I judge jocks on, two were passed onto me by Henry, one I came up with as a result being an owner.

A good jock on the best horse should win more times than not.
A good jock thats NOT on the best horse will win more times than he should.

A jock without a clock in his head is like a clock without hands, thats mine.;)


These horses, most times, are evenly matched if the connections are spotting them correctly, and pace is what makes the race. If you don't know how fast you are going early relative to how fast you should/could be going then the battle is 1/2 lost unless you are on a horse that doesn't belong in the race (ie., much the best).


The jocks that DO improve as Boomer says, begin to conform to the above criteria. The ones that go bad, get beat on 4-5 shots, don't find a call on a 6-1 shot and as far as the pace thing goes, they typically are oblivious to it.

On the subject of improving young jocks, check out Daniel Centeno at MTH, that kid has been improving for a few years now, he may be OK....

John

[HEADSUP]

hmmmm in my humble opinion I see it this way:

the reason young or old jocks ( not all, but MOST ) dont improve :

1 - take someone with an elementary school education or less
2 - in a foreign country
3 - no language skills & unable to read
4 - no friends or family support
5 - an agent with only his ( the agents ) future in mind

if a jock has 2 or more of these items in his or her favor will succeed and improve, and you will find that most that do improve are from the US or Canada or were super jocks where they came from and were picked up by an agent that had both his and the jocks future in mind when brought here

[jotb]

A look at the "opposite side of the fence".....I think you all may have some comments on the link. I actually got a chuckle putting it together in a
sympathetic kind of way.

So what do these trainers tell their owners about the jockey they've got riding their horse? The only think I can think of is nepotism.

See link:


Hello Turfday:

I personally know 2 on that list. One of them (Barahona), I worked with for a short period. The kid had no representation and asked nicely if I could help him. He had excellent work ethics and looked like he had some ability so I decided to help him. I worked with him from 6-3-05 to 7-10-05 and we managed to win 12 races through that period from 104 races. I let him go because he was not willing to learn what it takes to be a good rider. He was not interested in watching excellent riders from other tracks and was not eager to listen to the the experienced riders in the room. Some trainers told me that he didn't follow instructions and I was not pleased with that as well. He had a difficult time reading the program and I tried my best to teach him but he would'nt take my advice. He had no clue when it came to class and pace. He just seem to do his own thing out there. I just simply let him go.

[point given]

A rose is a rose is a rose.


Some are naturals and apply themselves, and others just lack ability. Some with less than top skils apply themselves and improve though to be solid journeymen.

[thruncy]

Here's to the great Mike Talarico, Louisiana's entry for all time worst.

[JohnGalt1]

A ballplayer that can't hit a curve ball has a coach throw them in batting practice.

A poor fielder takes extra work in the field.

Why doesn't the poor jockey take lessons from someone?

There a jockeys that are great out of the gate in sprints, but can't judge how a turf race unfolds.

I wonder if Chris McCarran would take on an experienced(?) jockey. He would find bad habits like coach in another sport.

I know if I was a 2% jockey, I'd either quit or correct my faults to earn more money.

[HEADSUP]

A ballplayer that can't hit a curve ball has a coach throw them in batting practice.

A poor fielder takes extra work in the field.

Why doesn't the poor jockey take lessons from someone?

There a jockeys that are great out of the gate in sprints, but can't judge how a turf race unfolds.

I wonder if Chris McCarran would take on an experienced(?) jockey. He would find bad habits like coach in another sport.

I know if I was a 2% jockey, I'd either quit or correct my faults to earn more money.

QUIT & do what? muck stalls, workout rider, walk horses??? they most likely do that now to make a living...you think these guys are yale graduates??
do you have any clue how hard a life some of these guys live?? sure doesnt seem itlike I stated before these guys are foreigners with no language skills and NO educaton.....what are they to do...go pick fruit???

[srdnaty]

Why don't bad horses improve? All you have to do is show them a video of a good horse running and they should be able to emulate that.

Somebody has to ride the bad horses. That's what bad jockeys are there for.

Bad jockeys get bad horses. That's probably the biggest obstacle IMO.

[whyhorseofcourse]

Bad jockeys get bad horses. That's probably the biggest obstacle IMO.

This makes the most sense.

[Shenanigans]

A look at the "opposite side of the fence".....I think you all may have some comments on the link. I actually got a chuckle putting it together in a
sympathetic kind of way.

So what do these trainers tell their owners about the jockey they've got riding their horse? The only think I can think of is nepotism.

See link:

I know one of those riders and this is what I see in that person:
Very sweet and likeable.
Seems to wax and wane with interest in riding. In other words, this person has some talent but really doesn't apply it.
Seems at times to be content right where they're at.
Concentrates harder on personal relationships than career.
All summed up this person doesn't seem to take riding very seriously at all.
Luckily, this person realizes they aren't a super star and has actually gone back to college.

[Overlay]

Bad jockeys get bad horses. That's probably the biggest obstacle IMO.

As you say, that's a fact of life from a handicapping standpoint. Not to come down personally on jockeys with low winning percentages, but I've found that (whatever the reason for their poor performance), it pays from an odds-making/betting perspective to factor the jockey into the equation, and to give greater weight to leading riders.

[Stillriledup]

Here's to the great Mike Talarico, Louisiana's entry for all time worst.

:lol:

[Dahoss9698]

:lol:

Still funny almost 2 years later?

[Stillriledup]

Still funny almost 2 years later?

Some things just get funnier as time rolls on! Remember how funny it was when Belushi smashed the guitar in Animal House? Well, that moment is even funnier today imo.

[Run Nicholas Run]

there are some riders who have a "poor" win percentage
but actually do have some talent.

Trust me I live in central nevada so I get to the races
at the fairs in ely and elko and will go to idaho also, along
with weekend trips to arizona so I have seen plenty of riders
who would be considered "spanks".

There is a super attractive woman in arizona named
Anna Barrio who has a low win percentage but if she does
get a live mount she looks good on a horse. Back in 2007-8
while at yavapai I did see her win a few and I did notice that
she looked like she had ability regardless of her overall record.

Donnie French is another 'zona rider who has ability but rides some
longshots even pacman jones could outrun.

I would admit even thoug I hate to talk bad about any rider,
but in Idaho Justin Vanderwoode SUCKS!

[Stillriledup]

there are some riders who have a "poor" win percentage
but actually do have some talent.

Trust me I live in central nevada so I get to the races
at the fairs in ely and elko and will go to idaho also, along
with weekend trips to arizona so I have seen plenty of riders
who would be considered "spanks".

There is a super attractive woman in arizona named
Anna Barrio who has a low win percentage but if she does
get a live mount she looks good on a horse. Back in 2007-8
while at yavapai I did see her win a few and I did notice that
she looked like she had ability regardless of her overall record.

Donnie French is another 'zona rider who has ability but rides some
longshots even pacman jones could outrun.

I would admit even thoug I hate to talk bad about any rider,
but in Idaho Justin Vanderwoode SUCKS!


There are some jocks who look good on a horse who can't win. I was talking about jocks who look like they have poor form and was questioning why they don't take steps to 'look better' on a horse.

I've always wanted to go to Elko and check it out.

[mountainman]

The real issue raised by this thread is the huge disparity in skill amongst jockeys. I can't think of another sport that sets the bar so low for an individual to become licensed and ply the trade as a professional. Think about it, to become even a backup on the lowliest MLB or NFL franchise, the player must exhibit incredible talent and outshine perhaps millions of other aspirants. To become a racerider, they have but to be light enough, gain some experience galloping, and complete a schooling race or two without falling off or dropping somebody. The standards are ridiculously low and make it debatable, in my opinion, whether jockeys should be considered professional athletes in the strictest sense.

[Stillriledup]

The real issue raised by this thread is the huge disparity in skill amongst jockeys. I can't think of another sport that sets the bar so low for an individual to become licensed and ply the trade as a professional. Think about it, to become even a backup on the lowliest MLB or NFL franchise, the player must exhibit incredible talent and outshine perhaps millions of other aspirants. To become a racerider, they have but to be light enough, gain some experience galloping, and complete a schooling race or two without falling off or dropping somebody. The standards are ridiculously low and make it debatable, in my opinion, whether jockeys should be considered professional athletes.

Good stuff Mark, totally agree.

[pandy]

As far as how a jockey looks on a horse, it can be deceiving. Two of my all-time personal favorites are Hall of Fame rider Julie Krone and Eclipse Award winner Jorge Chavez. Krone looked like poetry in motion on a horse almost appearing to be an extension of the animal. Chop Chop is just the opposite, with his herky jerky hustling style, he isn't pretty, but horses run their eyeballs out for him. But they both had tremendous success and Chavez, who was the leading rider in NY for 6 straight years, and won 4 Gulfstream riding titles, is still winning.

[Robert Goren]

The answer is guts. They can learn everything else, but they are scared to make that necessary move, they aren't going to get to the top. I have seen several riders who were at top of their circuit after a bad fall, lose their courage and slip down to the bottom. JMO

[Stillriledup]

As far as how a jockey looks on a horse, it can be deceiving. Two of my all-time personal favorites are Hall of Fame rider Julie Krone and Eclipse Award winner Jorge Chavez. Krone looked like poetry in motion on a horse almost appearing to be an extension of the animal. Chop Chop is just the opposite, with his herky jerky hustling style, he isn't pretty, but horses run their eyeballs out for him. But they both had tremendous success and Chavez, who was the leading rider in NY for 6 straight years, and won 4 Gulfstream riding titles, is still winning.

Chavez is a very unique rider, he's one of the shortest jocks out there, so i think his lack of size makes his style a bit different than most other riders. Chop Chop is the exception, not the norm but i do agree, that some jocks can make horses run fast with an unorthodox style, but most of the time, they can't.

[Run Nicholas Run]

There are some jocks who look good on a horse who can't win. I was talking about jocks who look like they have poor form and was questioning why they don't take steps to 'look better' on a horse.

I've always wanted to go to Elko and check it out.


If you do go to the Elko races try to go the first weekend
not the second , the first weekend the crowd is less as the second
weekend is 4 days and gets crowded since it is a small facility, and
when wagering play with some time boefore post as there are no
self serve machines and the mutuel clerks are all volunteers , so mistakes
are plenty.

Regarding the track and bias , its like the meadowlands :
SPEED nearest the RAIL!! ;)

[Pell Mell]

Chris Rosier was known to have a bad attitude and work ethic. Several trainers he had ridden for refused to ride him anymore. He then got with Tim Ice and was the original jock on Summer Bird and after the derby lost the mount to KD.

Seems like he got no more mounts from Ice but started to pick up a few rides at OP and brought home some long ones. He's not setting the world on fire but is riding for about 10% now. He seems to have a knack with closers and now has a good chance to do well since he's hooked up with Bret Calhoun who's one of the top trainers in those parts.

Chris created some personal problems for himself but has been turning his life around. I wish him all the luck. :ThmbUp:

[TommyCh]

Extending your point mountainman, there's a lot of racing out there and by sheer numbers you are going to get more bad jockeys. The ones I don't like are those with less than 100% desire to win or the ones who ride scared--won't split horses at the eighth pole or "I don't do the rail, pal". I'm tired of seeing jockeys quit trying 50 or 100 yards out.

[Pell Mell]

Extending your point mountainman, there's a lot of racing out there and by sheer numbers you are going to get more bad jockeys. The ones I don't like are those with less than 100% desire to win or the ones who ride scared--won't split horses at the eighth pole or "I don't do the rail, pal". I'm tired of seeing jockeys quit trying 50 or 100 yards out.

I had addressed your point some time in the past. Way back when I started there were only about 7,000 horses in training and now there are over 35,000. This means a lot more jockeys are needed and what you get is a dilution of talent. Sort of like when baseball expanded from 16 teams to whatever it is now. An awful lot of these players today would still be in the minor leagues back then.

I know that there's a bigger pool to draw from today, but when there's real competition for jobs, you had better be good. ;)

[Stillriledup]

I had addressed your point some time in the past. Way back when I started there were only about 7,000 horses in training and now there are over 35,000. This means a lot more jockeys are needed and what you get is a dilution of talent. Sort of like when baseball expanded from 16 teams to whatever it is now. An awful lot of these players today would still be in the minor leagues back then.

I know that there's a bigger pool to draw from today, but when there's real competition for jobs, you had better be good. ;)

You could make the case its a dilusion of talent, but you could also make the case that the talent is better because the pool of human beings to draw from is much larger than it was 50 years ago.

I agree with your point about the competition for jobs, you better be good and as time wears on, only elite workers are going to be getting jobs, there's just many more humans than jobs and as time wears on, the population is increasing and the jobs are becoming more scarce.

[PaceAdvantage]

Still funny almost 2 years later?I'm sure you've noticed that Stillriledup is the Jesus to the old thread's Lazarus. I'm still working on the answer as to why.

[horseracegame]

I think the tip you explained "Why not get a videotape of a top rider and try and emulate how that top rider sits on a horse?" is one of the good solution not only for bad jockeys but also for others to learn good racing ethics.

[mountainman]

I'm sure you've noticed that Stillriledup is the Jesus to the old thread's Lazarus. I'm still working on the answer as to why.

He's still riled up about it.

[mountainman]

I had addressed your point some time in the past. Way back when I started there were only about 7,000 horses in training and now there are over 35,000. This means a lot more jockeys are needed and what you get is a dilution of talent. Sort of like when baseball expanded from 16 teams to whatever it is now. An awful lot of these players today would still be in the minor leagues back then.

I know that there's a bigger pool to draw from today, but when there's real competition for jobs, you had better be good. ;)
You make some good points pell, and I suppose that that the proliferation of tracks and racing dates can loosely be likened to major league expansion. But as odd as it might sound, racing has always created its own demand for bad jockeys. Since good riders often refuse sore or slow mounts, less skilled jockeys fill the need. And since standards for becoming a trainer aren't much higher than for becoming a rider(a whole different, and interesting, topic), plenty of conditioners don't KNOW or fully distinguish the difference in skill sets amongst jockeys. And many trainers-as well as owners-play the blame game with jocks, switching every time a horse misses the ticket. No MLB franchise would use 8 guys at shortstop over the course of ten games, but the same span of starts might find a horse ridden by 8 or even 9 different jockeys. And bad riders have ways of compensating for their inadequacies. Nobody makes a big league roster simply by working their tail off or ingratiating themselves with management. It takes some talent. No-talent jockeys, on the other hand, can get mounts-even live ones-by being at the barn early, galloping horses, and being slick at selling themselves.

[Stillriledup]

Another very good post Mark, excellent points.

I think the question would be that we all know bad riders have a place in the game, but for the guys who look 'bad' on a horse, it seems like they continually stay and ride with their unorthodox style as opposed to trying to change. College QB Tim Tebow is attempting to change his entire throwing style and arm angle.....if Tebow can do it, why can't a bad rider seek out help in order to look better on a horse?

I guess you can make the point that a bad rider is a bad rider because they won't seek out that help in order to "make their lines more pleasing".

Seek help guys.