Past Posting

[Zaf]

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/category/tote-system/

Z

[cj]

It seems to me anyone with a winning ticket on that race has legal grounds to sue.

[trigger]

IMHO, The only thing that will remedy this incompetence is a class action suit brought against all NA race tracks in the name of all horseplayers.

"Bets were placed after Philadelphia Park horse race was over
So people who bet on Magical American to win "before" the race and bet the exacta "before" the race got cheated. They should have won quite a bit more than they did.
A stop-betting signal is supposed to go out seconds before the horses leave the starting gate. In this case, the signal did not make it to at least one of the off-track sites.
American racing has several betting companies at its racetracks around the country. Insiders have long known the system that handles $15 billion each year is anything but seamless.
The holes were supposed to be patched after the 2002 Breeders' Cup Pick Six scandal was orchestrated by a betting company employee, in conjunction with two of his former Drexel fraternity brothers. Their effort was so amateurish, it was quickly discovered and they all went to jail. The bigger problem, however, is still there. * "
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/sports/24057599.html

[Indulto]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2008/July/07/Racetracks-investigate-another-past-posting-incident.aspx (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2008/July/07/Racetracks-investigate-another-past-posting-incident.aspx)
Racetracks investigate another past-posting incident
by Frank Angst July 07, 2008For at least the third time since November 25, the Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau is among those investigating a past-posting incident caused by a failure to terminate wagering after a race’s start.

Curtis Linnell, director of racing analysis for the TRPB, said the fourth race on June 28 at Philadelphia Park is under investigation because of possible past posting. The TRPB is seeing if wagers arrived from off-track locations, specifically Tampa Bay Downs, not only after the race began but also after it had been completed.

… Linnell is looking to see if there is evidence that the pools remained open even after the Philadelphia race ended, allowing bettors to wager on an outcome they just witnessed.

At least two Mid-Atlantic tracks experienced tote issues that day. After the problems with the fourth race, Philadelphia Park ran its fifth race as a non-betting race. Delaware Park ran its first five races on June 28 as non-betting races.

... the problem originated from the Scientific Games data center in New Jersey.

… Past posting occurs typically at simulcast outlets after wagering is not effectively halted at the host site, and it has become a hot-button issue since November 25 when betting windows remained open on a Fair Grounds race.

... The tote company for Fair Grounds is Scientific Games.

On January 3, a similar problem occurred at Aqueduct, which uses Youbet.com’s United Tote services. Jeff True, of United Tote, said besides two backup plans already in place, the tote company added procedural changes to prevent future problems. At Aqueduct, a steward is assigned to hit the stop-wagering button. ...
... A live event operator serves as backup. An emergency button was added to allow that operator to halt wagering. Still, True acknowledged that the human element makes it difficult to guarantee that wagering will properly be stopped 100% of the time. ..It's good to know the TRPB is protecting the pools from all those guys hanging out at simulcast centers, watching each race and then trying to bet the winner as soon as it crosses the line; hoping someone was asleep at the switch. ;)

[SMOO]

Yet another reason horse racing is looked upon with such distain.

[broadreach]

The stop betting signal is part of the standard protocol established for pari-mutuel wagering, according to Linnell. The signal goes from the host track to other hubs or tote systems handling wagers going into the host track pool. He said a “break” in the communications signals could prevent the stop betting signal from going out.
“That situation can happen, and in very isolated situations it has,” Linnell said.

So it's happened and can continue to happen. Sometimes horse racing deserves the pummeling it receives from critics.

[Tom]

Business 101 - they know a problem exists and have failed to address it. Fix it is one thing, they are ethically obligated to put in place temporary measures to prevent re-occurrence until permenant, irreversable corrective action is in lace and verified.

If my company were that slack with our customer, we would be de-certifed and forfeit our contracts. But, I know of no industry with such outright dis-respect for it's cutomers than this one.

This is bush league and not one person in the industry can rationalize it.

[Niko]

IMHO, The only thing that will remedy this incompetence is a class action suit brought against all NA race tracks in the name of all horseplayers.

"Bets were placed after Philadelphia Park horse race was over
So people who bet on Magical American to win "before" the race and bet the exacta "before" the race got cheated. They should have won quite a bit more than they did.
A stop-betting signal is supposed to go out seconds before the horses leave the starting gate. In this case, the signal did not make it to at least one of the off-track sites.
American racing has several betting companies at its racetracks around the country. Insiders have long known the system that handles $15 billion each year is anything but seamless.
The holes were supposed to be patched after the 2002 Breeders' Cup Pick Six scandal was orchestrated by a betting company employee, in conjunction with two of his former Drexel fraternity brothers. Their effort was so amateurish, it was quickly discovered and they all went to jail. The bigger problem, however, is still there. * "
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/sports/24057599.html

I'd love to see someone do it. I could be wrong but the past posting is probably just the tip of the iceberg....what else lurks beneath? Horse racing needs a huge class action lawsuit against it and maybe the perfect storm is brewing. I was visiting a couple friends in another state who usually only go to the track once or twice a year. I started talking about some of the things such as this that appear to be going on and their comment to me was striking "that's horse racing, it's been going forever".

I won't feel one bit of sympathy until they use it as an excuse to raise the take....can you imagine if this happened in the stock market.....again, let's let the feds take one step closer. This should never be tolerated!!! and the lack of remorse is amazing

[JustRalph]

Sonofabitch!! Not Again?
















Has anybody told Matt Drudge about the Paulick Report? Sure looks like he took it right from Drudge? How long has this been around?

http://www.paulickreport.com/

[Javagold]

Whats Vic Stauffer have to say about this.....guess its just more "whining" from the horse players :bang:

[menifee]

It seems to me anyone with a winning ticket on that race has legal grounds to sue.

Not a lot to go after just for this one race. According to the report, 13k was taken out of the win and exacta pools. A plaintiff's lawyer could file a class action against the track. The proposed class would be all bettors that had a winning ticket (win/exacta as they seem to be the pools impacted) on the race. The theory of liability would be some breach of k and/or violation of the Penn. consumer protection statute.

The problem with the case is damages. 13K is peanuts. The lawyer would only receive approcimately 3.9K in fees. The costs of notifying the class would exceed 13k. An individual bettor could pursue his or her claims on their own in small claims court.

If the plaintiff's lawyer was ambitious and I mean extremely ambitious, he could file a consumer class action in a plaintiff friendly jurisdiction against Philadelphia Park. The lawyer would allege that past posting has occurred at the track for years for hundreds of races. That in essence track management at the track had a duty to the bettor to ensure that past posting did not occur, but failed to full this duty and that each winning bettor on each of those races was damaged as a result. The theories of liability would be negligence, breack of k and consumer protection statutes. He could use the June 28 race as an example.

The plaintiff's lawyer could file similar cases against other tracks as well.

There are so many problems with this type of litigation, however. Proving that past posting occurred would be difficult and calculating damages would be impossible. The fees could be huge, however, as I'm sure total handle at Philly Park is pretty large.

[thespaah]

Seems to me that if it took ten mins for the mistake to be discovered and delayed the official, that all tickets printed with a timestamp AFTER the race was off could be denied payment.

Just a theory.

[PaceAdvantage]

Whats Vic Stauffer have to say about this.....guess its just more "whining" from the horse players :bang:Vic had a point in the thread that you're dissing him about. Racing has enough problems without the need to invent scandal where scandal does not exist.

What we're talking about in this thread is a genuine incident that took place. Quite the contrary to that other thread...

[lamboguy]

i beleive it was the 6th race. the 7 horse crossed the wire after beating the gate by 5 lengths, jill byrne said that was a good checkmark winner at 2-1, mike joyce pronounced at least she left the gate @2-1. in the winners circle the horse dropped to 4-5, paid 3.80. but the best part of that was the horse that to me looked as good as the 7 that won, went up in price from 2-1 to 3-1.

if you call the mutual department they will tell you thats all the simulcast money.

good luck trying to beat the races

[ryesteve]

she left the gate @2-1. in the winners circle the horse dropped to 4-5, paid 3.80.Even more curious is that this "4/5 shot" wasn't even favored in the p3 will pays...

[Imriledup]

We need a lawyer to open up a class action suit against these tracks for stuff like this.

We also need someone to be able to sue when a horse comes up positive and the client saves his tickets on the 2nd place finisher and sues for damages. To me, it seems pretty cut and dried, i wonder why no one has ever brought a lawsuit vs a trainer or the connections of a horse who won and tested positive for recoup of betting monies lost unfairly.

America is lawsuit happy, but no one seems to want to sue the racing industry for anything.

is there ANY lawsuit out there that you've ever heard of where a bettor was suing someone for something?

Geez, bettors can even sue for wrongly disqualified horses...i think stewards should be on the hook for stuff like this...slap THEM with a lawsuit and they'll think twice about disqualifying a horse on a ticky tack call.

[vor99]

Seems to me that if it took ten mins for the mistake to be discovered and delayed the official, that all tickets printed with a timestamp AFTER the race was off could be denied payment.

Just a theory.

Good in theory, but in practice I can guarantee you that all the folks who exploited the system malfunction, immediately cashed their winning tickets the moment the race was declared official.

[menifee]

If they wanted to catch the person, couldn't they just look at the IRS form. How many people at Tampa Bay Downs had a $500 exacta on the winning combination?

[Imriledup]

Good in theory, but in practice I can guarantee you that all the folks who exploited the system malfunction, immediately cashed their winning tickets the moment the race was declared official.

I've actually done that on occasion. I've cashed IMMEDIATELY after the prices went up just in case that rare instance where they changed their mind. I've done that on weird DQs where i was totally stunned by the outcome of an inquiry (that benefitted me) and i ran up to cash before they decided 'what were we thinking'

[Javagold]

My post to Vic, was stating that if nothing else PERCEPTION is REALITY and the horse players perceive soenmthing AINT RIGHT and they should never believe a word that comes out of any tracks executive mouth, that everything is 100% kosher.....and by the way, just for the record, i listed Past Posting BEFORE the current "dilemna" was announced so i do deserve a little credit ....now i know most handicappers complain about everything, and i for one do NOT believe every race is fixed....Vic working at the track probably is sick of hearing them "whine", HOWEVER there is stuff going on, whether he wants to believe it or not and he came off rather foolishly and i think my post looks somewhat "wiser" today after hearing about this most recent past posting....odds are dropping almost EVERY race and there is NO WAY its all simulcast money and its not everyones imagination that the speed horses odds SEEM TO GO DOWN THE MOST !!




Vic had a point in the thread that you're dissing him about. Racing has enough problems without the need to invent scandal where scandal does not exist.

What we're talking about in this thread is a genuine incident that took place. Quite the contrary to that other thread...

[cj]

If they wanted to catch the person, couldn't they just look at the IRS form. How many people at Tampa Bay Downs had a $500 exacta on the winning combination?

The exacta didn't pay enough to warrant an IRS form.

[menifee]

The exacta didn't pay enough to warrant an IRS form.

The exacta paid $27.20. The article states that he had a $500 bet on it. That means he won $6800. They definitely withhold on that.

Unless he punched it x times, then they had to withhold.

[YokohamaMary]

fyi, you are only required to be withheld upon if:

1) your net winnings are more than $600 and,
2) the odds were more than 300-1.

These are the rules. If some clerk hands you a 1099 and you don't meet both of the above, demand to see the management because they should pay you the gross amount.

[BillW]

fyi, you are only required to be withheld upon if:

1) your net winnings are more than $600 and,
2) the odds were more than 300-1.

These are the rules. If some clerk hands you a 1099 and you don't meet both of the above, demand to see the management because they should pay you the gross amount.

This is to sign only. Nothing is withheld until you hit $5,000 (and meet the 300-1 criterion) if I recall correctly.

[john del riccio]

Did anyone see the almost 2 point drop in odds on Wilsboro Point in the feature at BEL thursday ? I was lucky enough to have taken a shot on this one and
the last time I checked the tote prior to the start he was 7-1 down from 8-1 previously so he could have actually been 7.95-1 for all I know. They put up the prices and he pays 12.40. I know the deal about looking a gift horse in the mouth but geez.....

This kinda stuff happens alot at MTH for some reason.

John

[YokohamaMary]

This is to sign only. Nothing is withheld until you hit $5,000 (and meet the 300-1 criterion) if I recall correctly.


the $5,000 amount applies to many types of gambling income. However, for horse racing and I think Jai Alai (but who the hell bets on that anyway) you have slightly different rules. I am pretty confident in the $600 number for horse racing. If others disagree I will call my accountant because that is how I do it (or should I say did it).

[Pace Cap'n]

Bill is correct.

[PaceAdvantage]

If enough folks are turned off by these perceptions (or realities, as the case might be), then the tracks will eventually be forced to deal with the issue. Sad that it has to come to that for them to take action, but that's been the historical norm when dealing with this industry.

[startngate]

fyi, you are only required to be withheld upon if:

1) your net winnings are more than $600 and,
2) the odds were more than 300-1.

These are the rules. If some clerk hands you a 1099 and you don't meet both of the above, demand to see the management because they should pay you the gross amount.Actually, a W2-G is issued for the above, not a 1099.

As Bill mentioned, no withholding at that point. Withholding only occures if your total winnings for those wagers are over $5,000.

But ... tracks are supposed to count all of your winnings from identical wagers for withholding purposes. Not all of them do.

All of the rules are programmed into tote systems, so it would be highly unlikely for you to get a W2-G from a teller that you were not supposed to receive.

[Premier Turf Club]

1. Anything more than 300-1 on a wager is reported (to the IRS)

2. Anything more than 300-1 with winnings in excess of $5k is a witholder.

The form used is a W2G.

[menifee]

The exacta paid $27.20. The article states that he had a $500 bet on it. That means he won $6800. They definitely withhold on that.

Unless he punched it x times, then they had to withhold.

You guys are right, I was confused and forgot about the 300-1 rule. BTW, I would not trust the tellers to withhold correctly. I hit a pick 4 at Belmont on Breeders Cup Day a few years back. The teller tried to tax me twice (long story). I got in a fight with her. Luckily, someone from management was there and corrected her. I just wonder how many people she had done this to before.

[YokohamaMary]

1. Anything more than 300-1 on a wager is reported (to the IRS)

2. Anything more than 300-1 with winnings in excess of $5k is a witholder.

The form used is a W2G.

Okay, gents, here is what my accountant sent me about the WG2. It references $600 for horse racing. If you want to pull up the form and read it yourself (have a cup of coffee before trying), it states that $5000 is relevant for other forms of gambling (like your one arm bandits etc.):

Statements to Winners
If you are required to file Form W-2G, you must also provide a
statement to the winner. For information about the requirement
to furnish a statement to the winner, see part M in the 2008
General Instructions for Forms 1099, 1098, 5498, and W-2G.
You may furnish Copies B and C of Form W-2G.
1. Horse Racing, Dog Racing, Jai Alai, and Other
Wagering Transactions Not Discussed Later
File Form W-2G for every person to whom you pay $600 or
more in gambling winnings if such winnings are at least 300
times the amount of the wager. If the person presenting the
ticket for payment is the sole owner of the ticket, complete Form
W-2G showing the name, address, and TIN of the winner. If
regular gambling withholding is required, the winner must sign
Form W-2G, under penalties of perjury, stating that he or she is
the sole owner and that the information listed on the form is
correct.
Withholding
You must withhold federal income tax, at the rate of 25%
(regular gambling withholding), from the amount of winnings
less the amount wagered. Do this if the winnings less the wager
exceed $5,000 and if the winnings are at least 300 times the
amount of the wager.
If the winner of reportable gambling winnings does not
provide a TIN, you must backup withhold at the rate of 28% on
any such winnings that are not subject to 25% regular gambling
withholding. That is, backup withholding applies if the winnings
are at least $600 but not more than $5,000 and are at least 300
times the wager. Figure the 28% backup withholding on the
amount of the winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by
the amount wagered.

[YokohamaMary]

I read it again, actually, Bill was right. $600 for signers, $5,000 triggers the withholding in horse racing. Not that I have often had this problem!