God I am sick of Eurotrash -

[YokohamaMary]

More of this crap about how bad things are in the US. Meanwhile, purses in Europe suck, Northern Dancer bleeder blood rules, and even on the turf US horses are top level.

Americans have to stop buying into this nonsense that everything is better in Europe. Could we do better at home? Yes, but we don't need anyone's GD advice particularly from Eurotrash!

Thanks for listening!



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/07/07/shbroo107.xml

[Shenanigans]

This article has been posted already. It's in the "Euro" thread.

The article is dead on. I really don't see anything in it that is talking "trash". It's talking the truth. The last two paragraphs are questionable - I don't believe that is the latest fashion in Europe. However, in your second sentence Yoko, you do make a person wonder if they read it thoroughly: "Northern Dancer bleeder blood rules". Europe is full of that bloodline as is the U.S. but there is no Lasix in Europe. My question (again) is how can they do without but we can't???
Another point that is brought up in the article is the fact of lay ups. They do that as a norm. We used to do that years ago (there still are some trainers here that do that but not many) but it really isn't a common practice anymore due to all the medications out there. Sure, you can say financial means is the reason for so few lay ups. Owners want and need a quick return, but again, European owners are in the same position yet they still lay up. What gives?

[YokohamaMary]

This article has been posted already. It's in the "Euro" thread.

The article is dead on. I really don't see anything in it that is talking "trash". It's talking the truth. The last two paragraphs are questionable - I don't believe that is the latest fashion in Europe. However, in your second sentence Yoko, you do make a person wonder if they read it thoroughly: "Northern Dancer bleeder blood rules". Europe is full of that bloodline as is the U.S. but there is no Lasix in Europe. My question (again) is how can they do without but we can't???
Another point that is brought up in the article is the fact of lay ups. They do that as a norm. We used to do that years ago (there still are some trainers here that do that but not many) but it really isn't a common practice anymore due to all the medications out there. Sure, you can say financial means is the reason for so few lay ups. Owners want and need a quick return, but again, European owners are in the same position yet they still lay up. What gives?


Shenani,

I know the article was posted before but that thread is full full of hyperbaric chamber yadda, yadda....:sleeping:

Thanks for admitting that North American bleeder bloodlines rule in Eurotrash land. They pee and moan all day about our horses who they claim can't run without the stuff but if that were true why are N.A. horses ruling their leading sires lists. Same thing in Japan by the way for many, many years. Just because our horses run on the stuff does not necessarily mean they are unsound or unfit for breeding.

If the Eurotrash really thinks our NA horses are so poor then stop coming to the US and buying them. Bottom line, money talks hot air walks and NA horses are currently the best on the planet and they GD well know it.

Legal medications are not ruining the horses or the sport. If fact, they are probably helping them.

Sayonara!

[Humph]

If the Eurotrash really thinks our NA horses are so poor then stop coming to the US and buying them. Bottom line, money talks hot air walks and NA horses are currently the best on the planet and they GD well know it.


Top ten stallions currently in the British Isles :

Galileo - stands at Coolmore, Ireland
Montjeu - stands at Coolmore, Ireland
Danehill Dancer - stands at Coolmore, Ireland
Kingmambo - stands at Lane's End , Kentucky
Sadler's Wells - recently retired bit another Coolmore
Danehill - dead
Hernando - stands at Lanwades, Nemarket, England
Pivotal - stands at Cheveley Park stud, Newmarket, England.
Rock of Gibraltar - stands at Coolmore, Ireland.

And virtually all of this season's stars there - the likes of Duke of Marmalade, New Approach, Soldier of Fortune, Youmzain, Lush Lashes, Tartan Bearer, Frozen Fire and Look Here - are European homebreds . Henrythenavigator is a US bred exception. So it would appear that the Euros are doing just fine producing their own stock, without having to look too much towards here, don't you think ?

And yes, a few of the above stallions do have ND bloodlines flowing through their veins and were bred in the US, but in truth, these horses have only returned , more or less, whence their antecedents originally came .

[Zman179]

Other than the author's last two paragraphs about altitude training, I don't see what the fuss is all about. Our horses are drugged up and everyone knows it.

And I don't know why you have to go resorting to name calling because someone from the other side of the pond states the obvious.

[robert99]

More of this crap about how bad things are in the US. Meanwhile, purses in Europe suck, Northern Dancer bleeder blood rules, and even on the turf US horses are top level.

Americans have to stop buying into this nonsense that everything is better in Europe. Could we do better at home? Yes, but we don't need anyone's GD advice particularly from Eurotrash!

Thanks for listening!



Which Americans are actually buying into anything?
When does the voice of one journalist speak for the whole of Europe?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20020224/ai_n12838154

[Tom]

Maybe he was really the whole of Euorpe! :lol:

[YokohamaMary]

Maybe he was really the whole of Euorpe! :lol:


No I was referring to the "hole" of NY State. That is the Finger Lakes.. :cool:

[YokohamaMary]

Top ten stallions currently in the British Isles :

Galileo - stands at Coolmore, Ireland
Montjeu - stands at Coolmore, Ireland
Danehill Dancer - stands at Coolmore, Ireland
Kingmambo - stands at Lane's End , Kentucky
Sadler's Wells - recently retired bit another Coolmore
Danehill - dead
Hernando - stands at Lanwades, Nemarket, England
Pivotal - stands at Cheveley Park stud, Newmarket, England.
Rock of Gibraltar - stands at Coolmore, Ireland.

And virtually all of this season's stars there - the likes of Duke of Marmalade, New Approach, Soldier of Fortune, Youmzain, Lush Lashes, Tartan Bearer, Frozen Fire and Look Here - are European homebreds . Henrythenavigator is a US bred exception. So it would appear that the Euros are doing just fine producing their own stock, without having to look too much towards here, don't you think ?

And yes, a few of the above stallions do have ND bloodlines flowing through their veins and were bred in the US, but in truth, these horses have only returned , more or less, whence their antecedents originally came .

European Homebreds are only any good if there grandfathers were born somewhere else.

A few have Northern Dancer blood?? Here are some more facts. Care to post the leading sire list for Japan (a country where long distance turf racing means long distance turf racing).

Bottom Line: Without NA bloodlines europe would be full of slow horses. Drugs have nothing to do with this.

You can't read a publication or a newspaper article a day w/o hearing some stupid comment about how drugs have ruined our horses.

Galileo - stands at Coolmore, Ireland: Northern Dancer
Montjeu - stands at Coolmore, Ireland: Northern Dancer
Danehill Dancer - stands at Coolmore, Ireland: Northern Dancer
Kingmambo - stands at Lane's End , Kentucky: Mr. Prospector
Sadler's Wells - recently retired bit another Coolmore: Northern Dancer
Danehill – dead: Northern Dancer
Hernando - stands at Lanwades, Nemarket, England: Nijinsky (Northern Dancer)
Pivotal - stands at Cheveley Park stud, Newmarket, England.
Rock of Gibraltar - stands at Coolmore, Ireland: Danzig

[YokohamaMary]

Other than the author's last two paragraphs about altitude training, I don't see what the fuss is all about. Our horses are drugged up and everyone knows it.

And I don't know why you have to go resorting to name calling because someone from the other side of the pond states the obvious.

The fact that the horses run on medications is irrelevant. And, it is about time to stop all this nonsense about how terrible drugs have made things Poltracks and all the other "fixes" is what will kill of US racing. Not some some stupid dose of lasix.

[Tom]

No I was referring to the "hole" of NY State. That is the Finger Lakes.. :cool:

I wasn't talking to you, and I'll put FL quality against anything you got. As for horses running on dope, you sure are a fountain of mis-information. Irrelevant?
What planet have you been living on?

You gonna answer Robert's question or just rant?

[YokohamaMary]

Okay, I like Finger Lakes too (truth be told). Lasix has ruined our horses and weakened the breed is what is says by a well known industry figure. I do not believe it. I can't count the number of articles, blog entries that say how much better things are in Europe without drugs. Probably the opposite is true.





Here is a quote from this article:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20080511_Breeding_thoroughbreds__Is_durability_pos sible_.html





Breeding issues have come up more especially since the Derby.

"The fact, is we have weakened our breed," said Headley Bell, president of Nicoma Bloodstock and a fifth-generation Kentucky horseman. "It started when everybody started racing on Lasix and [Phenylbutazone], when it became customary, 15 or 20 years ago."

Bell said he was talking about the industry in general. He made a point of calling Eight Belles a "brilliant" racehorse. But he said he believes that horses have been retired to the breeding shed who "normally wouldn't have qualified" if drugs hadn't hidden problems during their racing careers. "They cover up a weakness," Bell said. "Whether it be the bleeding - Lasix is used to prevent bleeding - or other problems, and those weaknesses are now going into the mass herd of thoroughbreds. Horses that might have been unsound are now racing, and then breeding, and then put into the herd."

[robert99]

European Homebreds are only any good if there grandfathers were born somewhere else.

Care to post the leading sire list for Japan (a country where long distance turf racing means long distance turf racing).




And where do you think their grandfathers came from?

The breeding of the top Japan 4 year + olds, for example, is from all over, particularly USA.

http://japanracing.jp/_rankings/2007/04t.html

So is a long turf race in Japan 4 and a half miles over fences, or 2m 6f on the flat as in UK?
If speed comes from speed bred USA/Canada sires, where do you think stamina comes from for longer distance turf races?

[Zman179]

The fact that the horses run on medications is irrelevant. And, it is about time to stop all this nonsense about how terrible drugs have made things Poltracks and all the other "fixes" is what will kill of US racing. Not some some stupid dose of lasix.

The problem is that it's not just some stupid dose of lasix. It's lasix being used to mask other drugs plus others such as butazolidin and steroid-type legal drugs. All these drugs is simply not good. In fact, things have gotten so bad with drugs that many horses who have been banned from racing in Europe and Australia because they have bled in multiple races come straight over here to the US to compete. There's a reason why those horses were forbidden from competing: it was bad for the horse's well being. Yet over here they can run them into the ground as long as the syringe is nearby.

BTW, I dare you to show me just ONE trainer outside of North America who is winning at a 30% clip. In the US, there is (at least) one at every track.

[Zman179]

No I was referring to the "hole" of NY State. That is the Finger Lakes.. :cool:

You know, she might have a point there. :lol:

[YokohamaMary]

The problem is that it's not just some stupid dose of lasix. It's lasix being used to mask other drugs plus others such as butazolidin and steroid-type legal drugs. All these drugs is simply not good. In fact, things have gotten so bad with drugs that many horses who have been banned from racing in Europe and Australia because they have bled in multiple races come straight over here to the US to compete. There's a reason why those horses were forbidden from competing: it was bad for the horse's well being. Yet over here they can run them into the ground as long as the syringe is nearby.

BTW, I dare you to show me just ONE trainer outside of North America who is winning at a 30% clip. In the US, there is (at least) one at every track.

Here is a link to the HKJ trainer standings. The number of horses that run per race is huge in comparison to US tracks. If you take the leading trainers 1st and 2nd place finishers as a pool (to correct for the fact that the number of horses that race is larger) you get pretty close to 30%. I will try to dig up something for Japan too (again the fields are larger so you have to do some correction for that).

[YokohamaMary]

And where do you think their grandfathers came from?

The breeding of the top Japan 4 year + olds, for example, is from all over, particularly USA.

http://japanracing.jp/_rankings/2007/04t.html

So is a long turf race in Japan 4 and a half miles over fences, or 2m 6f on the flat as in UK?
If speed comes from speed bred USA/Canada sires, where do you think stamina comes from for longer distance turf races?

I am not sure if I understand your question but the grandparentage of ND is a mixture of both Euro and NA blood. But I am not sure what the point of this question is. I posted this thread because I am sick of hearing this nonsense about how medications have ruined US horses. Clearly this is not the case because as you point out, in Japan, where medication rules are stict, US breds do incredibly well. So all this blah, blah blah about how US horses can't run long, can't run w/o medications is ridiculous.

And, to answer your question about where the stamina comes from, I would say that bottom end comes from the arab world (where the UK stole a lot of horses from).

Domo!

[YokohamaMary]

The problem is that it's not just some stupid dose of lasix. It's lasix being used to mask other drugs plus others such as butazolidin and steroid-type legal drugs. All these drugs is simply not good. In fact, things have gotten so bad with drugs that many horses who have been banned from racing in Europe and Australia because they have bled in multiple races come straight over here to the US to compete. There's a reason why those horses were forbidden from competing: it was bad for the horse's well being. Yet over here they can run them into the ground as long as the syringe is nearby.

BTW, I dare you to show me just ONE trainer outside of North America who is winning at a 30% clip. In the US, there is (at least) one at every track.

At what point do the europeans ban bleeders? Does a horse have to bleed more than once? If he does, does he get banned permanently? Just curious.

[Humph]

A few have Northern Dancer blood?? Here are some more facts. Care to post the leading sire list for Japan (a country where long distance turf racing means long distance turf racing).

Bottom Line: Without NA bloodlines europe would be full of slow horses. Drugs have nothing to do with this.



You seem to be quite knowledgeable about ND's blood. So I'm sure you're aware that the great stallion's pedigree reads like a mid nineteen hundreds who's who of the European turf, particulary English . Still calling ND a north American horse ?

And what has Japanese racing got to do with this thread ?

[toetoe]

Full Full of Hyperbaric Chamber. Rock on ! :jump:

[YokohamaMary]

You seem to be quite knowledgeable about ND's blood. So I'm sure you're aware that the great stallion's pedigree reads like a mid nineteen hundreds who's who of the European turf, particulary English . Still calling ND a north American horse ?

And what has Japanese racing got to do with this thread ?

You seem quite knowledgeable re the origins of the thoroughbred race horse. The origins of which point to the Arab world. What do you call them now?

[YokohamaMary]

And what has Japanese racing got to do with this thread ?

Japan racing is relevant to this thread because it also is loaded with imported stallions from the US (particularly from the Hail to Reason line).

By bringing up the 19th century in your previous post you seem to be conceding that the NA racehorse bred horses (which I would define as a horse with 3 or 4 generations of primarily NA bred heritage) is the world standard.

At the end of the day, what we should all do is enjoy these great horses. I am glad to see some of the NA good horses exported and see them excel around the world. All I can say is the more horses the better (assuming they are taken care of).

A good horse is a good horse and does not have a nationality. The breeders that got their horses ALL got them from somewhere else because they were wealthy and talented enough to be able to know what was good and were able to buy the best. Today's present thoroughbred racehorse is a testimony to man's common quest for beauty and power. We all like the same things. The thoroughbred racehorse belongs to the world. We are all entitled to him.

[Zman179]

At what point do the europeans ban bleeders? Does a horse have to bleed more than once? If he does, does he get banned permanently? Just curious.

In Europe, if a horse bleeds once, and it is confirmed endoscopically, it is put on the veterinarian's list for approximately 90 days and cannot race during this period. If a horse bleeds a second time it is barred from further racing.

The United States has the same rule, but a horse is barred from racing after a third confirmed bleeding incident. First incident is 30 days and the second is between 90 to 180 days depending on the jurisdiction.