Ellis Park Closing??

[happy1]

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080702/BUSINESS/80702026/1002/SPORTS

[Tampa Russ]

Another victory for the "horsemen".

[NoCal Boy]

So the horsemen will now get 1/3 of the gross of ZERO handle.

[Tom]

Sad for the owner and the fans......tough nugies for the horse-herks.
I hope many of them lose their stables and end up working at McDonald's.

Rotten bastards that they are.:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

[NoCal Boy]

I applaud Ron Geary and hope this sends a message to get the damn issue settled. There needs to be compromise on all sides and it seemed Geary was willing to do so with a graduated scale increase for purses. I can not blame the horsemen for wanting more, but now their extreme position of 1/3 of gross has bit them hard in the butt. Should be an interesting few days in Kentucky.

[alhattab]

This is great news. The sooner these bastions of irrelevancy can close, the better. It's too bad that "subsidies" will continue to allow similar irrelevant venues like Presque Isle to remain in existence. The sooner these places see the demise of racing the better. I applaud Geary for taking a prudent business approach and allowing market forces to take their course.

[RichieP]

Good.

I hope this is the first of many tracks to close. "Ass Backwards" house of cards has begun it's collapse!

Maximum of 10 tracks nationwide for thoroughbred racing is more than enough

Nyra (Bel,Aqu.Sar)
Socal (Hol,Sa.Dmr)
Illinois (Ap,Haw)
Florida (Gp,Tam)
Louisiana (FG,Ded)

I feel for Mr. Geary. Here's a guy who takes over a track hoping to make things better for us the bettor and tries some innovative things right out of the gate. Then gets hit with all the bullshit (CD,THG etc). So he says FU to everyone and closes. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[phatbastard]

couple years ago, Tampa wouldn't have been on your list..and they turned it around....who is to say others can't as well....


so what you are saying that as a spectator sport, racing is done?

[Marlin]

Good.

I hope this is the first of many tracks to close. "Ass Backwards" house of cards has begun it's collapse!

Maximum of 10 tracks nationwide for thoroughbred racing is more than enough

Nyra (Bel,Aqu.Sar)
Socal (Hol,Sa.Dmr)
Illinois (Ap,Haw)
Florida (Gp,Tam)
Louisiana (FG,Ded)

I feel for Mr. Geary. Here's a guy who takes over a track hoping to make things better for us the bettor and tries some innovative things right out of the gate. Then gets hit with all the bullshit (CD,THG etc). So he says FU to everyone and closes. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:Interesting you have no tracks from Kentucky. I wonder what kind of economic impact the horse racing industry has in Kentucky? It's probably an irrelevant number. Sharp post and well thought out. I nominate it for POST OF THE YEAR!!!!!!

[Marlin]

As for Ellis, Mr. Geary has some stones. He is "all in" while holding very little thanks to the court. A 60 million dollar bluff. I would love to watch that table on ESPN.:)

[bigmack]

As for Ellis, Mr. Geary has some stones. He is "all in" while holding very little thanks to the court. A 60 million dollar bluff. I would love to watch that table on ESPN.:)
Snappy point and right on.

[njcurveball]

Maximum of 10 tracks nationwide for thoroughbred racing is more than enough

Nyra (Bel,Aqu.Sar)
Socal (Hol,Sa.Dmr)
Illinois (Ap,Haw)
Florida (Gp,Tam)
Louisiana (FG,Ded)



WOW! What a great idea! FOR NEW YORK, CALIFORNIA, and FLORIDA! :lol:

So you decided to give 3 states, EIGHT tracks. You listed a maximum of ten, but you decided to put 12 of them down anyway.

You tossed Oaklawn, so we wouldn't have to worry about those stupid Arkansas breds, and despite the thriving breeding industry in states like Pennsylvania and West Virginia you kicked them to the curb.

As for Kentucky which has a place called Churchill Downs, BUH BYE! But you kept that amazingly classy track Delta Downs! :bang:

With ideas like this, you have my vote for Racing Czar! :ThmbUp:

Racing Czar for DOG RACING! :lol:

[NoCal Boy]

PR from Ellis Park blasts the KY horsemen leadership

http://www.ellisparkracing.com/

[NoCal Boy]

Every racino track will stay open.

[ddog]

He isn't a fool, and he would be one to reopen it at anything like the split they want.
As he said , it was a money pit with no upside.

Live Racing attendance other than at a few (maybe a 15 or so) tracks is already done.
With gas and other costs that isn't going to increase.

The inflation adjusted market isn't growing and the players who could bring new money want nothing to do with it.

As goofy as the ADW stuff is now, who needs that either?
Takes a PHD to figure out where and what you can wager on.

This isn't baseball, these "fans" are not coming back.

The death rattle is heard everywhere.
The horseboys are just pulling the iv a tad earlier than I thought they would.

Soon, if this keeps up, guess who comes to dinner?

The pols, they will start retaliating for this kind of stuff, without a doubt, when you start getting into their pockets.

Horseboys vs pols, mud wrestling, texas death match rules.

Good for them.
They can fight over the very few crumbs left.
Inside of ten years you can tell your grandkids all about the good ole days.

I still recall when Gulfstream had a thoroughbred meet.
I think Hollywood had something like that too back in the day.



:lol:

[DeanT]

PR from Ellis Park blasts the KY horsemen leadership

http://www.ellisparkracing.com/
Go get em Ron. He should join paceadvantage. He'd fit right in. Oh ya, I almost forgot, he is a horseplayer. Damn right he'd fit right in.

[KMS]

Good.

I hope this is the first of many tracks to close. "Ass Backwards" house of cards has begun it's collapse!

Maximum of 10 tracks nationwide for thoroughbred racing is more than enough

Nyra (Bel,Aqu.Sar)
Socal (Hol,Sa.Dmr)
Illinois (Ap,Haw)
Florida (Gp,Tam)
Louisiana (FG,Ded)

I feel for Mr. Geary. Here's a guy who takes over a track hoping to make things better for us the bettor and tries some innovative things right out of the gate. Then gets hit with all the bullshit (CD,THG etc). So he says FU to everyone and closes. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

FG, LaD makes more sense than Ded. You're also missing Oaklawn, Kentucky, and Texas. I'd put the number more like 15-20. Provided 10 or so were always running at any one time, that would be enough action for me.

[Kelso]

Every racino track will stay open.Yup ... at least until the politicians do the math (or have someone do it for them) and decide they can buy more votes by taking the purse subsidies away from the greedy bastards who own horses and transferring all that loot to other, uhh, "interests."

At that point, the racinos become just CAsinos and nobody, besides the greedy bastards, really gives two damns. Can't happen soon enough.

[trying2win]

Some horsemen groups are the good kind of 'PRS' to deal with. That is, they are a real bunch of 'PRINCES' who see the common sense of cooperation, goodwill and collaboration for the prosperity of thoroughbred racing for all parties concerned.

On the other hand, some of the horsemen groups are the arrogant, my-way-or-the-highway, no-room-for-negotiation, greedy kind of characters to deal with. It seems these types are a real bunch of "PRS' of the other kind (if you know what I mean). I suspect some of these demanding types of horsemen are being fed negative propaganda by militant, executive-types in their horsemen associations, about how ADWS and racetracks are short-changing them...blah...blah...blah. Give me a break! I also suspect while these horsemen are suffering cutbacks in purses during these disputes, the pompous, self-righteous executive types of their horsemen associations are probably not suffering any salary cuts.

My suggestion for these negative types of horsemen is to count your blessings, be grateful for what you have. Boot out any egomaniacs in your so-called leadership group at the horsemen associations. In my opinion, they are leading you down the path of self-destruction of your livelihood. Also eliminate confrontation...and embrace collaboration with racetracks and ADWS. Call back Ron Geary very soon and say "Sorry Ron about all the negative demands, and personal insults (if there were any), we've had a paradigm shift and have seen the light, our current negative attitude is getting us nowhere"...we are ready to sit down and talk, compromise, collborate and hammer out a deal for the benefit of all, including our often-forgotten customers".


T2W

[Tom]

Florida should be off the list...why reward them for screwing us.
Florida no longer exists.

[alhattab]

The problem is not the number of venues but the number of dates, and the number of dates is largely driven by factors not directly related to the racing/wagering side of the business (e.g., government involvement, breeding programs). This is a problem that I don't believe will ever be fixed because the states compete against one another (e.g., PA and NY now), and they feel they have to run year-round to compete for breeders. And the slots threw everything out of kilter. There was a clear order to things- in the East NYRA was clearly the majors, Monmouth was AAA, Philly was AA and Delaware/Penn/AC were A-ball. That is now out of whack, and all the racing pretty much sucks, and it's not going to get fixed unless the pols figure out they'd be better off redirecting slots money to more important public policy matters.

If I had my druthers in the East, I'd see Delaware vanish, Philly run all year save for June-August, NJ run 4 days a week at Monmouth Memorial Day-end of September and then go to refurbed AC, and NYRA pretty much stay the same except close after Thanksgiving and reopen in March. And don't even get me started about Presque Isle Downs, the world's most irrelevant racetrack.

In the "Midwest", Ohio vanishes, KY stays as is except no racing July-August. i think Arlington and Oaklawn have it right. In Fla the GP meet is way too long. So is Tampa. GP should close end of March. CRC runs through May and reopens in Sept/Oct.

Throw in a few night tracks that had really bad horses like in the old days (and didn't compete for decent horseflesh like now) in case you want some action at night and we have a plan.

[RichieP]

I'd put the number more like 15-20. Provided 10 or so were always running at any one time, that would be enough action for me.

Yes max of 10 running at one time is what I meant. I hope the domino theory applies here and the Ellis closure is the first of dozens more to follow in the coming years.

[ezrabrooks]

The Pea Patch is gone? I bet it opens back up as soon as the ADW crap is settled (and it will be settled). What is he gonna do with it, plow it under and plant corn? On second thought, corn is a better Return than putting on horse races.

[RichieP]

couple years ago, Tampa wouldn't have been on your list..and they turned it around....who is to say others can't as well....
so what you are saying that as a spectator sport, racing is done?

What I am saying is racing as a growth industry is dead. Also one of the few guaranteed things in life is change. Well that is coming like it or not to the game we love.

I've actually come to believe that what is going on now with the infighting (Adw's,Horsemen, track execs) will be good for the game in 5-10 years. If we just sit back they are killing themselves!!! Bless their hearts.

In the endgame only a very few tracks will survive.

[alhattab]

What I am saying is racing as a growth industry is dead. Also one of the few guaranteed things in life is change. Well that is coming like it or not to the game we love.

I've actually come to believe that what is going on now with the infighting (Adw's,Horsemen, track execs) will be good for the game in 5-10 years. If we just sit back they are killing themselves!!! Bless their hearts.

In the endgame only a very few tracks will survive.

People have been saying this ever since full-card simulcasting proliferated. The rich would get richer and the lower-level tracks would be "distribution centers". In a way that happened, but the natural course of the business took a major turn with the advent of Racinos. Now if the same predictions come true we are really screwed, because some of the at-risk tracks now are the traditional higher-class venues, including California and Maryland, and in many cases the more asthetically pleasant ones, like Monmouth Park, which face demise at the expense of a dump like Delaware and a glass-enclosed, concrete jungle like Philly. And that would be a damn shame.

[RichieP]

Interesting you have no tracks from Kentucky. I wonder what kind of economic impact the horse racing industry has in Kentucky?

Why should Kentucky be blessed with racing dates?? Look what's going on at CD. Look at the nonsense from them spilling over to Mr. Geary at Ellis.

Give Keeneland their 2 little boutique meets as they ARE making moves in a positive direction for US the players.

Only tracks and Adw's that:
1) Can be bet by everyone from everywhere
2) Offer their racing signals FREE to everyone from everywhere
3) Offer wagers with a MAXIMUM of 19-20% takeout. NO others allowed.
4) Have in place agreements on distribution of monies coming in from ALL sources
get blessed with racing dates on a yearly basis.

You have that? Come see me and I give you some dates to race.

You don't have that? Find another line of work just like thousands of us have to deal with every day.

[David-LV]

I just have only one question to ask.

ARE THESE KENTUCKY HORSEMEN BRAIN DEAD?

Now you have gained nothing and are losing everything.:bang:

You tried to stick up one of the good guys in racing today.

Good luck because now you are going to need it.

Any per cent of zero is still zero.

________
David

[DJofSD]

Well, it appears that at least Penn National will be around for a while longer. I don't know how viable it will be but at least FIG and the other investors won't be in the driver's seat. Details here. (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080703/penn_national_acquisition.html)

[Marlin]

You have that? Come see me and I give you some dates to race.

You don't have that? Find another line of work just like thousands of us have to deal with every day.That is why you have earned njcurveball's vote for racing czar. You have my vote as well.

[Valuist]

This is not good for the handicappers. Yet one less track where early speed can actually win is now gone. The Poly fans will probably rejoice. Arlington will be the winner from this.

[Marlin]

Arlington will be the winner from this.A couple of other small stacks at the table should benefit. River Downs comes to mind.

[Valuist]

RD will benefit a bit. Maybe Mnr also. But AP will be the biggest beneficiary.

[cj]

I had an incredible day betting speed at polytrack Arlington yesterday.

Back on subject, this is a great thing for Geary to do. The horsemen want more money, and there is only going to be one place that ever comes from, and that is the bettors. The tracks can either fight the horsemen, or give in and fight for a takeout raise which will drive many players right out of the game.

The horsemen are already getting far more in purses than they deserve via slot subsidies.

[ddog]

The horsemen are already getting far more in purses than they deserve via slot subsidies
The horsemen are already getting far more in purses than they deserve via slot subsidies
The horsemen are already getting far more in purses than they deserve via slot subsidies


I wish I had posted that!!!!!!!!!!!!


10000000% percent correct, no argument possible.

Maybe Bernake or Congress can bail them out of the mess with your tax dollars they rob from you on the obscene takeouts.

:p

[Tampa Russ]

People have been saying this ever since full-card simulcasting proliferated. The rich would get richer and the lower-level tracks would be "distribution centers". In a way that happened, but the natural course of the business took a major turn with the advent of Racinos. Now if the same predictions come true we are really screwed, because some of the at-risk tracks now are the traditional higher-class venues, including California and Maryland, and in many cases the more asthetically pleasant ones, like Monmouth Park, which face demise at the expense of a dump like Delaware and a glass-enclosed, concrete jungle like Philly. And that would be a damn shame.

Having just spent a week in the mid-atlantic, which included 1 day stops at PHA and DEL, I would agree with your PHA assessment. I found DEL to be the complete opposite of a dump. A paddock area that is just perfect. Brand new theater seating in the clubhouse grandstand vewing area, and they have replaced the seats in the regular grandstand as well. An abundance of screens for simulcasting..plenty of wagering machines. 2 bucks for a slice of pizza that was actaully fresh and tasty. It was by far the best on-track experience I have had in a long time. Could the the fields be larger...yes..but for a Wednesday afternoon, not bad. Almost forgot..also spent a day of simulcasting at Laurel as well...maybe that made my DEL experience seem better than it was.

[Wickel]

I'm beginning to believe that all horsemen are braindead--or a flock of sheep following the greed. I can remember reading when many horsemen were dead set against simulcasting, saying it would kill the industry. It was all on-track or nothing as far as they were concerned. We see now how full-card simulcasting has revolutionized the industry. Same thing is happening with ADWs. These guys just don't learn from their mistakes.

[sandspur]

Ron is a player and a damn good one; he also has a set. I called and left him a message on his voice mail that he was one of the last of the good guys......

[GlenninOhio]

Turfway seems to be in the mix as an alternative.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/45974.htm

This excerpt:

"The Churchill Downs spring meet ends July 6. Churchill officials and Kentucky horsemen are involved in the same account wagering dispute that led to a 20% reduction in purses and could carry over to other meets in the state this year. Observers said it's doubtful Churchill would want to extend its meet given the current economic climate brought on by the horsemen's dispute.

Turfway Park isn’t scheduled to open until Sept. 3. Whether the Northern Kentucky track is an option to add dates should the Ellis Park meet not be held remains to be seen; a shift of racing dates would need regulatory approval.

“Neither party has contacted me at this point,” Turfway president Bob Elliston said July 3. “I would have to get a lot of questions answered before we could make that determination—legal questions, purse questions, horsemen’s questions. Assuming those questions were answered, one of the benefits of the investments that we have made in our surface is that we can get up and running without much difficulty.”

And this:

"If by chance Turfway were to add dates, racing would go up against River Downs, located 20 minutes from Turfway in neighboring Ohio. Turfway has lights and would have the option of racing at night; River Downs races in the afternoon. Also, the horse population at the two tracks overlaps.

One horseman who is based in Kentucky told The Blood-Horse night racing in the summer at Turfway wouldn’t be a stretch if that becomes an option, given the shorter shipping time from other tracks and training centers and cooler temperatures in the evening."

[karlskorner]

It wouldn't surprise me to see CRC closing down within the near future. Handle is 17 percent compared to last year.

What needs to be done by Ellis Park and others that have been or will be destroyed by the horsemean is very simple. A 3 day notice to all horsemen, "get your animals off OUR property". It's been proven in the past you fight fire with fire.

[GlenninOhio]

What needs to be done by Ellis Park and others that have been or will be destroyed by the horsemean is very simple. A 3 day notice to all horsemen, "get your animals off OUR property". It's been proven in the past you fight fire with fire.

A little extreme, Karl?

And from what I hear, horsemen have been deserting Calder in droves for venues like Delaware, in effect saying "Take your crappy purses that you cut as a punitive measure thinking you had us as a captive audience and shove them".

[happy1]

Turfway seems to be in the mix as an alternative.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/45974.htm

This excerpt:

"The Churchill Downs spring meet ends July 6. Churchill officials and Kentucky horsemen are involved in the same account wagering dispute that led to a 20% reduction in purses and could carry over to other meets in the state this year. Observers."

Wouldn't Turfway have the same ADW horseman's issues?

[karlskorner]

Hardly extreme, if you were running/owning a track and the handle was cut back to 17 percent of the previous year how do you justify paying the purses as in the past. This was all caused by the horsemen. Horses are not leaving CRC in "droves", out of 1800 or so on the grounds, approximately 100 have left, mostly owned and/or trained by gypsy trainers. Most of the trainers (as elsewhere) live and own homes within the track area and the cost of shipping/vanning horses has gone through the roof, an owner has to seriouly consider the costs and whether it's worthwhile for the difference in purse structure.

Should the Kentucky and Florida trainers win, whats to stop every horsemens association throught the country to pull the same thing and who's to suffer in the long run ? The patron, you,me and 1000's of others.

[ddog]

Turfway seems to be in the mix as an alternative.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/45974.htm

This excerpt:

"The Churchill Downs spring meet ends July 6. Churchill officials and Kentucky horsemen are involved in the same account wagering dispute that led to a 20% reduction in purses and could carry over to other meets in the state this year. Observers said it's doubtful Churchill would want to extend its meet given the current economic climate brought on by the horsemen's dispute.

Turfway Park isn’t scheduled to open until Sept. 3. Whether the Northern Kentucky track is an option to add dates should the Ellis Park meet not be held remains to be seen; a shift of racing dates would need regulatory approval.

“Neither party has contacted me at this point,” Turfway president Bob Elliston said July 3. “I would have to get a lot of questions answered before we could make that determination—legal questions, purse questions, horsemen’s questions. Assuming those questions were answered, one of the benefits of the investments that we have made in our surface is that we can get up and running without much difficulty.”

And this:

"If by chance Turfway were to add dates, racing would go up against River Downs, located 20 minutes from Turfway in neighboring Ohio. Turfway has lights and would have the option of racing at night; River Downs races in the afternoon. Also, the horse population at the two tracks overlaps.

One horseman who is based in Kentucky told The Blood-Horse night racing in the summer at Turfway wouldn’t be a stretch if that becomes an option, given the shorter shipping time from other tracks and training centers and cooler temperatures in the evening."


Didn't TP lose a TON of bucks on the last meet?
Why would they want more dates, they will just bleed out faster?
And , yeah, what about the same horse-hockey from the "owners"?
They gonna "see the light" now?

I hope for no racing in kentucky, then the horse guys will be sure nobody is getting any of "their" pie.
:ThmbUp:

[alhattab]

Having just spent a week in the mid-atlantic, which included 1 day stops at PHA and DEL, I would agree with your PHA assessment. I found DEL to be the complete opposite of a dump. A paddock area that is just perfect. Brand new theater seating in the clubhouse grandstand vewing area, and they have replaced the seats in the regular grandstand as well. An abundance of screens for simulcasting..plenty of wagering machines. 2 bucks for a slice of pizza that was actaully fresh and tasty. It was by far the best on-track experience I have had in a long time. Could the the fields be larger...yes..but for a Wednesday afternoon, not bad. Almost forgot..also spent a day of simulcasting at Laurel as well...maybe that made my DEL experience seem better than it was.

Yeah I know Tampa Russ. People I know like Del too. For some reason I'm never comfortable there, and I've got a raging one for the place. After Monmouth closes in September maybe I'll take a trip over there and give it another whirl. I never really liked to hang outside there like I do at Monmouth but maybe I'll set up shop in the simo area which I've heard from others and you is ok.

[Valuist]

I had an incredible day betting speed at polytrack Arlington yesterday.

Back on subject, this is a great thing for Geary to do. The horsemen want more money, and there is only going to be one place that ever comes from, and that is the bettors. The tracks can either fight the horsemen, or give in and fight for a takeout raise which will drive many players right out of the game.

The horsemen are already getting far more in purses than they deserve via slot subsidies.

I assume you caught the $21 winner in the 4th because other than that, only one speed horse won and he held on by a nose. It certainly wasn't speed biased.

[gemcity39]

Lets not forget the "smart' texas horsemen who have caused Lone Star to not be shown and bets taken...and Sam Houston and Retama have already filed Ch.11 once, they may close. No slots in Texas = no racing, add in the "brilliant" horsemen who refuse to let the signal be shown to HRTV and ADWs, and Texas racing is next in my opinion to have tracks close. New Mexico and Lousiana will be only too happy to have all the Texas horses.:mad:

[cj]

I assume you caught the $21 winner in the 4th because other than that, only one speed horse won and he held on by a nose. It certainly wasn't speed biased.

The winners of the 4th, 5th, and 8th all won sprint races with my top early speed rating, the longest two in maiden races. They paid $21, $9, and $60. Now, I'm not the slightest bit concerned with how they run once the gate opens. Predicting what jockeys do isn't my thing.

[andicap]

Can we forget about handicapping Arlington and get back on topic here?

Some thoughts ---

Closing more tracks is in the best interests of the sport. Look at the short pathetic fields at tracks like Delaware, Calder and the NoCal circuit?

With Ellis Park closed those horses will go somewhere else, bolstering the field sizes a bit at those tracks. Add in a few more clBosings and all of a sudden instead of 4 to 6 horses a race, you've got 6 to 9 or more.

Now the government will intervene because its losing tax revenue when tracks close. Not just through betting but the taxes paid by people who work at Ellis Park, horsemen there, etc.
But if you really do believe in the free market, capitalism, etc., you can't prop up a dead carcass.
You also hear concerns from horsemen at all tracks that many of them cant afford to stay in the sport --- that is why they need the higher grosses from ADWs.
So what? Can't afford it? Get the hell out. That's Economics 101. Don't ask us, the fans to subsidize marginal stables.
Get the drugs out of racing to erase much of the super-large stable's unfair competitive advantage (of course they will always have economics of scale on their side but that's true in any business.). Then let the cream rise to the top.
Im sorry if some small trainers won't be able to survive if more tracks close but that's life in a free-market economy. Don't like it? Try Venezuala.
Nobody is OWED a living here. If you're good enough -- at training, attracting new owners, managing your stable economically and efficiently -- you'll stick around.

The questions we should be asking in all of this -- the ones raised by the horsemen's actions against the ADWs -- are these:

"What if that's not enough anymore though? What if the economics are so skewed against the bouqiue horsemen that only the 'factories' like Asmussan or Pletcher et al can survive and there's no ore at all for the small or mid-zied training operation, even those that run efficient, quality operations? "

If true, what can be changed to keep these people in the game without destroying the rest of the sport?

Bottom line here:

Closing more tracks will ensure only the best operations stay in business.

The next question is whether a more efficient sport will be enough for the most efficient stables.


A bit of a ramble but it's pretty late here --

[Tom]

Should the Kentucky and Florida trainers win, whats to stop every horsemens association throught the country to pull the same thing and who's to suffer in the long run ? The patron, you,me and 1000's of others.

Good point, Karl.
The message from US must be loud and clear - even when/if these knucklehad tactics end, we should NEVER support those tracks again. For me, I will never look at another CD or Florida race ( except Tampa).

[Tom]

Bottom line here:

Closing more tracks will ensure only the best operations stay in business.

The next question is whether a more efficient sport will be enough for the most efficient stables.
--

A smaller poplations will be easier to control/monitor. Like Pre-race testing of every horse, and after the first positive, paid for by the owner. Of course, a third party testing house, with no ties to any racing people at all, along the line of Underwriter's Labs, and all test result made public. Perhaps surveillence camera on all stalls 24-7. the general perception should be guilty unless proven innocent.

[Kelso]

4) Have in place agreements on distribution of monies coming in from ALL sourcesUnless the horsemen own, maintain, manage and FINANCE the racing facilities, they should have no guarantee of ANY revenue other than what they WIN on the track. Let the tracks compete for runners based solely on condition books, purse levels, surface quality and backstretch services.

This socialist sense of owners' entitlement is the element of the racing business that makes the least sense and poses the most severe threat to the long-term viability of the industry.

[Kelso]

ARE THESE KENTUCKY HORSEMEN BRAIN DEAD?The answer is an emphatic "YES," and I'm quite certain their condition is directly related to their close geographic proximity to Ohio horsemen.

[RichieP]

A smaller poplations will be easier to control/monitor. Like Pre-race testing of every horse, and after the first positive, paid for by the owner. Of course, a third party testing house, with no ties to any racing people at all, along the line of Underwriter's Labs, and all test result made public. Perhaps surveillence camera on all stalls 24-7. the general perception should be guilty unless proven innocent.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kelso]

Can't afford it? Get the hell out. That's Economics 101. Don't ask us, the fans to subsidize marginal stables. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:


Get the drugs out of racing to erase much of the super-large stable's unfair competitive advantageThat will also do much to reduce the cost of owning racehorses. And if a few dozen vets lose their primary source of income ... see "get the hell out," above.

[foregoforever]

Unless the horsemen own, maintain, manage and FINANCE the racing facilities, they should have no guarantee of ANY revenue other than what they WIN on the track. Let the tracks compete for runners based solely on condition books, purse levels, surface quality and backstretch services.


I agree with you, but I'm not sure if it applies here. From what I've read, the horseman are asking for one-third of ADW handle to go to purses. If a portion of that goes to some non-purse related handout, it's not being mentioned in the media.

Where does the money go? Every group in this business feels like they're not getting enough money. Horseplayers don't like the takeout, which is much higher than other forms of gambling. The horsemen claim they're not getting enough money. The tracks all seem to be losing money, to varying degrees. The government seems unsatisfied with their take. And ADW's such as Youbet always seem to lose money.

So either somebody's lying, or there's some other group making all the money, or this whole horseracing enterprise is just too expensive to be viable.

[Kelso]

I agree with you, but I'm not sure if it applies here. From what I've read, the horseman are asking for one-third of ADW handle to go to purses. If a portion of that goes to some non-purse related handout, it's not being mentioned in the media.My point is that no portion of any revenue stream should be guaranteed to the horsemen as a group. That's what happens when revenues are dedicated to purses.

The owners' only legitimate concern is whether they want to compete for the purses OFFERED by the tracks, and then whether they actually receive the money their horses win for them.

Where tracks obtain the revenue they use for purses, or for any other expense, should not be dictated by the owners.

[Marlin]

I believe there is another thread about a Dream World currently up. There is gambling, there is government, there will be no simplicity.

[foregoforever]

Where tracks obtain the revenue they use for purses, or for any other expense, should not be dictated by the owners.

It certainly shouldn't be dictated by the owners. But it's reasonable for the horsemen to negotiate some portion of handle to be dedicated to purses. The government, horseplayers and ADW's all work off a percentage. I have no problems with the horsemen doing the same thing.

But there needs to be a better way to negotiate it. Horsemen shouldn't be able to shut off simulcasting. Is there any other union or bargaining group that has that type of power ... the ability to shut down their counterpart's main source of revenue?

[Tom]

Unless the horsemen own, maintain, manage and FINANCE the racing facilities, they should have no guarantee of ANY revenue other than what they WIN on the track. Let the tracks compete for runners based solely on condition books, purse levels, surface quality and backstretch services.

This socialist sense of owners' entitlement is the element of the racing business that makes the least sense and poses the most severe threat to the long-term viability of the industry.

AMEN!

Local horsemen do not contribute thinkg 1 to simulcasting, and they get get $0.00 for their contributions. Tracks are businesses, and as they take the riskm only they should ge tthe rewards. Horsemen sould only get what purse money they earn. IF they don't like it, go work at Piggly Wiggly.
Horsemen have the same status to tracks as line cooks or dishwashers to a diner. They just think they are God's gift to the world. No one with sh*t on thier boots is that! :lol:

[uncbossfan]

As someone who lives 5 minutes from RD and 10 minutes from TP, I would LOVE to see day racing at the River then head to Tufway to watch them under the lights, but it will never happen.

RD and TP have an agreement that they will not simulcast each others tracks, ensuring locals have to make the drive to whichever is running at the time to help business.

Fields are small enough as is at River, runnin both at the same time would be a disaster for both sides as most horses/trainers use boh tracks.

I never really got into the Ellis meet from a handicapping standpoint, but as a Kentuckian and huge fan of the sport, it disturbs me to see what is hapening at CD and now Ellis. Keeneland seems to be the only KY track moving in the right direction, and they have the fewest racing days in the whole state.

[Wickel]

Can we forget about handicapping Arlington and get back on topic here?

Bottom line here:

Closing more tracks will ensure only the best operations stay in business.

The next question is whether a more efficient sport will be enough for the most efficient stables.


A bit of a ramble but it's pretty late here --

I can see your point, but I fear the industry would return to the "Sport of Kings"--the Vanderbilts, Hancocks, Taylors; Calument, Claiborne and Spendthrift farms. The elite of the elite. I, personally, love playing bottom-level claimers at Delta Downs, Zia Park, and Yavapai Downs. With the best-of-the-best scenario, it's only a matter of time before your super stables with super horseflesh emerge, dominating every meet from coast to coast. That my friend equals chalk, chalk, chalk.

[MNslappy]

Groups Say Ellis Park Closure a Symptom
by Tom LaMarra
http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/45984.htm

The Thoroughbred Racing Associations said July 3 the circumstances surrounding the announced closure of Ellis Park in western Kentucky stem in part from lack of a long-term strategy on the part of horsemen and racetracks.
And the Kentucky Equine Education Project, also July 3, issued a statement blasting Gov. Steve Beshear and the state legislature for failure to address the horseracing industry’s problems. It claims the situation can be remedied by legislative changes but made no mention of expanded gambling, for which it has lobbied.

Ellis Park owner Ron Geary said July 3 the track wouldn’t open as scheduled July 4 for its 44-day meet. According to reports, there is an outside chance negotiations could continue between the track and Kentucky Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association over advance deposit wagering revenue.

Chris Scherf, executive vice president of the TRA, issued the following statement regarding Geary’s announcement to shutter Ellis Park:

“I deeply regret Ron Geary, a racetrack owner with great love of the sport and an overwhelming desire to serve the pari-mutuel wagering public, has been forced to close Ellis Park, an esteemed member of the TRA since 1974 and a western Kentucky attraction for more than 80 years. I’m also gravely concerned about the circumstances surrounding this serious and unnecessary development. Racetracks and participating horsemen share a common interest in distributing their simulcast signal as widely as possible for the best possible revenue return, which Ellis Park clearly had done.

“Unfortunately, some horsemen’s groups believe their share can be increased beyond prevailing market rates by forcing the tracks to agree to a minimum pricing structure set forth by a new, third-party organization. Tracks have been unwilling to pursue this approach because of legitimate business and legal concerns.

“Before additional damage is done to the racing industry, horsemen and racetracks must see the difference between short-term gains and a long-term strategy to be developed jointly. One side dictating to the other clearly will not work.

“I strongly suggest horsemen’s groups end the strategy currently being employed by some. Instead, it would be in everyone’s best interest for individual horsemen’s groups to evaluate each simulcast agreement on its own merits and not unreasonably withhold consent, while at the same time working with the racetracks for the future improvement of the pari-mutuel business model.”

The Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Group, formed in December 2007, is negotiating ADW contracts for some horsemen’s groups.

As for KEEP, it said the announced closure of Ellis Park “should resonate like an explosion in the halls of Frankfort (the state capital).” KEEP said it’s a symptom of Kentucky being behind other states that have received legislative assistance.

“For some time, KEEP has been warning our elected leadership that our breeding and racing industries were at a severe competitive disadvantage with our surrounding states,” the group’s statement said. “We have continued to see horsemen move their operations to other states with higher purses and larger breeder award programs. Given that environment, it was only a matter of time before we started losing racetracks.

“We know there are many complexities to the decision to close Ellis Park. When added together, no business could withstand what our racing industry has faced for the last decade and not make significant changes. Other states have implemented aggressive means of funding purses and changed their state legislation, which is essentially stealing our horse industry.

“We can no longer passively sit by and wait for our signature industry to leave our state. Now is the time for bold and serious leadership in Frankfort. We call on the governor and members of the General Assembly to focus squarely on the competitive problems facing our industry. The KEEP board of directors and its thousands of members stand ready to work with our leadership to protect and strengthen Kentucky’s horse industry.”

Though the statement made no mention of slot machines or video lottery terminals, the devices have been the "agressive means for funding purses" in other states. Geary in the past said Ellis Park’s future was questionable given its inability to offer expanded gambling to increase purses.

Gaming legislation failed to win support in the Kentucky General Assembly again this year.




HANA should write a press release on the Ellis Park situation and send it out to writers and media who cover the sport.

[discodog]

Kudo's to Ron Geary. No one mentions the bettors. What say do we have. This all goes back to Magna (Frank Stronach) he started the downward spiral trying to dominate the game. Well he is getting his wish, Way to go Frankie Boy.

[thespaah]

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080702/BUSINESS/80702026/1002/SPORTS
Son of A b!tch.....And the reason why it's closing?....Ridiculous.. The horsemen are setting their house on fire because they want it repainted..

[Indulto]

HANA should write a press release on the Ellis Park situation and send it out to writers and media who cover the sport.MNs,
HANA is in need of manpower and so anything that gets done so far is the result of someone's personal initiative.

Your idea is a good one. Come on down and make it happen. :ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

This is great news. The sooner these bastions of irrelevancy can close, the better. It's too bad that "subsidies" will continue to allow similar irrelevant venues like Presque Isle to remain in existence. The sooner these places see the demise of racing the better. I applaud Geary for taking a prudent business approach and allowing market forces to take their course.
Ok ..what tracks do you classify relevant and irrelevant?

[thespaah]

Florida should be off the list...why reward them for screwing us.
Florida no longer exists.Well that's a state......Please choose the tracks individually....BTW What did the people at Tampa Bay Downs do that is so horrible that they get the evil eye?

[thespaah]

The problem is not the number of venues but the number of dates, and the number of dates is largely driven by factors not directly related to the racing/wagering side of the business (e.g., government involvement, breeding programs). This is a problem that I don't believe will ever be fixed because the states compete against one another (e.g., PA and NY now), and they feel they have to run year-round to compete for breeders. And the slots threw everything out of kilter. There was a clear order to things- in the East NYRA was clearly the majors, Monmouth was AAA, Philly was AA and Delaware/Penn/AC were A-ball. That is now out of whack, and all the racing pretty much sucks, and it's not going to get fixed unless the pols figure out they'd be better off redirecting slots money to more important public policy matters.

If I had my druthers in the East, I'd see Delaware vanish, Philly run all year save for June-August, NJ run 4 days a week at Monmouth Memorial Day-end of September and then go to refurbed AC, and NYRA pretty much stay the same except close after Thanksgiving and reopen in March. And don't even get me started about Presque Isle Downs, the world's most irrelevant racetrack.

In the "Midwest", Ohio vanishes, KY stays as is except no racing July-August. i think Arlington and Oaklawn have it right. In Fla the GP meet is way too long. So is Tampa. GP should close end of March. CRC runs through May and reopens in Sept/Oct.

Throw in a few night tracks that had really bad horses like in the old days (and didn't compete for decent horseflesh like now) in case you want some action at night and we have a plan.
I agree with you in part...
State govt's use the racing business to raise revenue. The way I see it, Horse racing is merely tolerated by most states. I say this because if govt didn't have a stake, they'd outlaw wagering and thus the sport would disappear.
The cash cow aspect of State regulations has forced the misery of winter racing in cold climates upon us.. I agree that NYRA should shut down from 12/1 thru 3/1. The same should apply to Illinois as well.
T-Bred racing in Ohio is ready for a dirt nap...
Kentucky, with the announcement of the immediate closing of Ellis, may very well not race in summer....
Delaware, Penn and Mountaineer are all on the same level...They are Racinos..They aren't going anywhere.
NJ T-Bred racing may have a tough time surviving now that the Garden State is completely surrounded by Racino states. I think NJ should take the Meadowlands off the T-Bred sched alltogether. Hecjk the meet used ot be 100 days..Now it's down to 35-40 and the graded events have all but vanished. Reopening AC is not going to happen. Mth needs no competition and winter racing at AC would be miserable...Maybe a fall meet for NJ breds would fit there. But the facility needs to be refurbished. And who is going to fork over the $$ for that?
Maryland is in dire straits for the same reason( slots competition surrounding states)) as above and the fact that the purses suck. Plus the MD govt seems to not care whether the sport exists in MD or not.
you're spot on about the number of available race dates. Perhaps if the dates were reduced, the quality of the racing and the horses would rise with less availability of opportunity.
Of course this will never happen. With racing jurisdictions battling each other with respoect to prime race dates, good stables/owners none of them is going to relinquish the opportunity to attract them. Does that make sense?..

[Tom]

Well that's a state......Please choose the tracks individually....BTW What did the people at Tampa Bay Downs do that is so horrible that they get the evil eye? I'm only assuming that Tampa will be tainted by the dipstick Florida horsemen next season. If they accept out of state wagers while GP and Crc do not, you bet I will support them. Tampa is a nice track - no thanks to any horsemen, but to the track owners.

[Indulto]

... Closing more tracks is in the best interests of the sport.

.... With Ellis Park closed those horses will go somewhere else, bolstering the field sizes a bit at those tracks.

... if you really do believe in the free market, capitalism, etc., you can't prop up a dead carcass.ELP didn't close because it wasn't viable, but because the THG isn't making economic sense and their immediate failures at CRC and CD couldn't be admitted any more than a certain President's failure in a certain country could.... horsemen ... cant afford to stay in the sport --- that is why they need the higher grosses from ADWs.
So what? Can't afford it? Get the hell out. That's Economics 101. Don't ask us, the fans to subsidize marginal stables.[/QUOTE[I agree, but it's the big spenders on horseflesh and vet bills that are the bigger problem.[QUOTE]Get the drugs out of racing to erase much of the super-large stable's unfair competitive advantageHow do you know smaller trainers can't find vet's willing to work in their price range?...Im sorry if some small trainers won't be able to survive if more tracks close but that's life in a free-market economy. Don't like it? Try Venezuala.
Nobody is OWED a living here. If you're good enough -- at training, attracting new owners, managing your stable economically and efficiently -- you'll stick around.A free market requires needs fair competition. One problem with Pletcher and Asmussen training the % of horses they do is that it keeps owners from running against each other.... What if that's not enough anymore though? What if the economics are so skewed against the bouqiue horsemen that only the 'factories' like Asmussan or Pletcher et al can survive and there's no ore at all for the small or mid-zied training operation, even those that run efficient, quality operations?"We'll find out if the 'big" trainers can maintain their win percetages without the medication.If true, what can be changed to keep these people in the game without destroying the rest of the sport?Maybe without drugs, trainer skills will resume their former premium.... Closing more tracks will ensure only the best operations stay in business.

The next question is whether a more efficient sport will be enough for the most efficient stables. ...It will depend on which tracks close.

[Kelso]

I think NJ should take the Meadowlands off the T-Bred sched alltogether.Agreed. MED should stick to buggy racing.

[Indulto]

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/23026089.html (http://www.lvrj.com/sports/23026089.html)
Creativity, cooperation could save California tracks
By RICHARD ENG 07/04/2008… The critics I don't respect are those who want only to tear down but have no constructive ideas. Horse racing needs consensus builders, not more obstacles, to repave the road it's on.

… Can it be that the Bay Meadows Land Company, the owner of the two racetracks, can hold the California racing industry hostage?

The only reason BMLC has not closed the doors and developed the two tracks is because the economy stinks. ..

… Here is an outside-the-box idea that I would like Shapiro, Indian tribal gaming and Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to consider.

The CHRB wants the two tracks to stay open and would love a percentage of casino profits for purses. The Indians would relish the chance to develop two new casinos offsite from their existing reservations. Gov. Schwarzenegger desperately needs more cash to help balance a state budget deficit.

The state could establish a fair market value for Bay Meadows and Hollywood Park and either have Indian tribes buy the tracks or the state take them over using eminent domain. A new operator then would lease the racing facility to run the racing dates. The Indians would build two new casinos on the properties either as the owner or lessee. Part of the casino profits would go to fund California horse racing purses. The state would get money as a lessor, from taxes and selling the casino licenses. …

[alhattab]

Agreed. MED should stick to buggy racing.

Sometimes I appreciate Med at night, but there's something weird about watching races there and overall I agree I'd like to see it vanish from t-bred landscape. I'd rather see Mth run through Sept. and for the state to encourage a refurb of AC, which could host say 20-30 days in the spring and 20-30 days in the Fall.

[rrbauer]

Stronach and MEC have pissed away A HALF-BILLION of OPM (that's what $500 million is, right?) on their racetrack adventure. Geary doesn't have that much to piss away (OPM or otherwise), sees the handwriting on the wall, and recognizes that throwing good money after bad simply makes more bad.

I'm sure he has a price in mind that would make ELP a nice venue for those horse-owner group(s) that consider his decision to not open, "rash". Let them buy the track and show everyone how to do it.

[fouroneone]

just raise the takeout and get the horses running again. who cares? how many bettors that play ellis actually know what the takeout even is when they bet? 5, 10% at most?

and saying that ANY racetrack should close is stupid. So what if pinnacle wants a place where michigan breds can thrive, so what if pennsylvania gets a chance to boost its breeding and racing program by opening up presque isle.

the anti-takeout, anti-synthetic, anti-small track, pro-racing only in NY, CA, FL and KY mafioso strikes again on PaceAdvantage.

[rrbauer]

just raise the takeout and get the horses running again. who cares? how many bettors that play ellis actually know what the takeout even is when they bet? 5, 10% at most?

and saying that ANY racetrack should close is stupid. So what if pinnacle wants a place where michigan breds can thrive, so what if pennsylvania gets a chance to boost its breeding and racing program by opening up presque isle.

the anti-takeout, anti-synthetic, anti-small track, pro-racing only in NY, CA, FL and KY mafioso strikes again on PaceAdvantage.


Ah, another employee of NYC-OTB; or, is it NYRA?

[JustRalph]

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2008/jul/03/ellis-park-meet-could-start-next-week/


might get it open after all

[thespaah]

Sometimes I appreciate Med at night, but there's something weird about watching races there and overall I agree I'd like to see it vanish from t-bred landscape. I'd rather see Mth run through Sept. and for the state to encourage a refurb of AC, which could host say 20-30 days in the spring and 20-30 days in the Fall.
One of the problems with MED is 80% of the races are 5 or 6f ....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...
They don't card enough turf races and not nearly enough routes.
AC could once again be a short meet track. But the proximity to the casinos would make it difficult to operate at anything less than a devastating loss.
The only way AC could work is if the stupids in trenton would allow racebooks in the casinos. At least this way, the small amount of attendees could be offset by offsite wagering dollars.
But .........You have the horsemen standing in the way. They will think inside that smal box and forget the bigger picture then cry and whine baout their cut of the revenue.
I am not an advocate of "screw the horsemen". I do think that the parties should work together to a result that is equitable to all.