Big Brown does his best imitation of Casino Drive [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

GlenninOhio

07-02-2008, 05:58 PM

I'd love to see a video of that work...to see if he was under wraps or not

So after being violently pulled up in the Belmont, his trainer continues this lesson in "you're not supposed to go all out when competing" by instructing his exercise rider (presumably not Kent D.) to breeze him "under wraps"?

There are plenty of ways to move a horse forward toward a race short of a breeze - a 2-minute lick (15 seconds per eighth) or even a strong gallop. Makes no sense to me to breeze him if you're going to actually physically restrain him, especially after the Belmont fiasco. Dutrow may have instructed the rider to just let him go his own way and to not push on him at all, but in that case he ought to have been able to go at least 2 or 3 seconds faster.

Pace Cap'n

07-02-2008, 06:34 PM

I'm just glad to hear he can gallop.

joanied

07-02-2008, 08:11 PM

So after being violently pulled up in the Belmont, his trainer continues this lesson in "you're not supposed to go all out when competing" by instructing his exercise rider (presumably not Kent D.) to breeze him "under wraps"?

There are plenty of ways to move a horse forward toward a race short of a breeze - a 2-minute lick (15 seconds per eighth) or even a strong gallop. Makes no sense to me to breeze him if you're going to actually physically restrain him, especially after the Belmont fiasco. Dutrow may have instructed the rider to just let him go his own way and to not push on him at all, but in that case he ought to have been able to go at least 2 or 3 seconds faster.

That's why I'd like to see a video of the 'work'...was he under wraps? Was the rider (what's her name) instructed to keep it slow...or let the horse just do his thing? Actually it was a like a 'two minute lick'...a strong gallop... we don't know what they really wanted from BB for that work... guess we'll have to wait and see what developes.

Oh...I agree, IF the horse wanted to really GO...and they decided to force him down...that IS a bad thing to do... used to drive me crazy when trainers worked horses in company and told the riders to keep them all together...best way in the world to teach a youngster not to want to win.

Shenanigans

07-02-2008, 10:19 PM

That's why I'd like to see a video of the 'work'...was he under wraps? Was the rider (what's her name) instructed to keep it slow...or let the horse just do his thing? Actually it was a like a 'two minute lick'...a strong gallop... we don't know what they really wanted from BB for that work... guess we'll have to wait and see what developes.

Oh...I agree, IF the horse wanted to really GO...and they decided to force him down...that IS a bad thing to do... used to drive me crazy when trainers worked horses in company and told the riders to keep them all together...best way in the world to teach a youngster not to want to win.

If BB worked "under wraps" I believe the BH article would have pointed that out.;)

Have you ever worked a horse? Have you ever worked young horses in company?? The whole reason is to get them use to being beside one another, and get them use to bumping and crowding. The last thing you want to do is teach a youngster to run off from its company. They have to be taught to rate. They have to be taught to go when it's asked of them, not go when they feel like it. Working horses in company is beneficial and in no way shape or form cuts out their desire to win. I don't know where you get this stuff.:rolleyes:

ezpace

07-03-2008, 08:35 PM

cross the pond twice..very very.rarely do they do well.

not taking anything away from a fine horse.

toetoe

07-03-2008, 09:55 PM

Telling Kent to keep him under wraps is like inviting me to dinner and saying, "Dig in !" The guy's a serial wrapper under. How about "Light a fire under him, Kent, and RIDE THROUGH THE FINISH LINE !!!"

DrunkenHorseplayer

07-04-2008, 04:41 AM

Take away the juice and all of a sudden he can't run; he's going down in a heap on Haskell Day.

jotb

07-04-2008, 08:48 AM

The horse worked poorly because he is not fit. Dutrow is proving how much of a moron he is by working an unfit horse 5 furlongs. This is just the recipe on how to break a horse down. He's an ass. BTW, I hope the poor horse had shoes on in his work.:rolleyes:

How can you possibly say that he is not racing fit? The horse just ran in the Belmont Stakes. Were you there to watch Big Brown work? I've been around this game for a very long time and would never make that kind of statement without actually watching that horse work and come off the track. Do you really believe Big Brown is not fit just because of his slow 5/8ths work? I guess the 5/8ths work of 104.37 for Stormin Normany (same day and another Dutrow horse) is not fit either. Stormin Normany ran on June 12th 7 days after Big Brown's race and won a 75k NY Bred Stake. You should take a closer look at the other horses that worked the same morning Big Brown worked. Dutrow worked quite a few and the times were slow as well. If you think Dutrow is a moron when it comes to training, I can only imagine what you think of the majority of trainers in the country.

Joe

Tom

07-04-2008, 09:39 AM

How can you possibly say that he is not racing fit? The horse just ran in the Belmont Stakes.

Joe

That's the point - he didn't.

Shenanigans

07-04-2008, 10:32 AM

How can you possibly say that he is not racing fit? The horse just ran in the Belmont Stakes. Were you there to watch Big Brown work? I've been around this game for a very long time and would never make that kind of statement without actually watching that horse work and come off the track. Do you really believe Big Brown is not fit just because of his slow 5/8ths work? I guess the 5/8ths work of 104.37 for Stormin Normany (same day and another Dutrow horse) is not fit either. Stormin Normany ran on June 12th 7 days after Big Brown's race and won a 75k NY Bred Stake. You should take a closer look at the other horses that worked the same morning Big Brown worked. Dutrow worked quite a few and the times were slow as well. If you think Dutrow is a moron when it comes to training, I can only imagine what you think of the majority of trainers in the country.

Joe

Ummmmm..... I seem to remember BB running out of gas at the top of the stretch at Belmont and not winning it. He was unfit for that race. Dutrow was criticized for not having the horse ready.
No, I didn't see the work, but I have acquaintances that did. From what I was told, BB wasn't ready for that work and the times were obvious proof. The horse isn't exactly training like a bear.;)
It's interesting that you compared a New York bred's time to BB. The NY bred ticked out 2 seconds faster. Don't you think a KY Derby winner should be 2 seconds faster than a NY bred that just won a 75K? If BB is so fit I would have expected better, wouldn't you?
My disrespect of certain trainers is no reflection on the whole. If you choose to assume that of me, well, what should I care?

jotb

07-04-2008, 11:29 AM

Ummmmm..... I seem to remember BB running out of gas at the top of the stretch at Belmont and not winning it. He was unfit for that race. Dutrow was criticized for not having the horse ready.
No, I didn't see the work, but I have acquaintances that did. From what I was told, BB wasn't ready for that work and the times were obvious proof. The horse isn't exactly training like a bear.;)

That race had absolutely nothing to do with the horse not being fit. Big Brown was in contention approaching the turn and then was eased by KD. Big Brown didn't pull himself up! The ownership for Big Brown were not out there at 5:50am to watch their horse work but your acquaintances were and they told you that BB was not ready to work. Now that's funny! You have all the answers all the time. You know this and you know that about horses but where are your owners. You are the typical backstretch worker that knows more than the trainer does. I know the type! I see them and hear from them everyday. If they had this horse or that horse they would do this or that for the horse and this one shouldn't be a trainer because they have no clue. This is what you constantly hear all the time on the backside. Ask these types why they don't go out on their own and they come back with some bull crap excuse why they don't want to train. But they know everything about the racehorse................

Joe

jognlope

07-04-2008, 11:40 AM

He had a nail sticking into his foot, not for nothing.

cj's dad

07-04-2008, 11:50 AM

He had a nail sticking into his foot, not for nothing.

Ummm-- I thought I read that his shoes were glued on ?!?

joanied

07-04-2008, 12:07 PM

If BB worked "under wraps" I believe the BH article would have pointed that out.;)

Have you ever worked a horse? Have you ever worked young horses in company?? The whole reason is to get them use to being beside one another, and get them use to bumping and crowding. The last thing you want to do is teach a youngster to run off from its company. They have to be taught to rate. They have to be taught to go when it's asked of them, not go when they feel like it. Working horses in company is beneficial and in no way shape or form cuts out their desire to win. I don't know where you get this stuff.:rolleyes:

Maybe the Blood Horse would have made a point of that... we'll just have to wait and see how his next work goes...if it's as slow as this one..then BB fans may have a worry...I know I'll be worried about it.

Yes, I have. Actually we are both right... you need to teach them everything, being inside, behind...all that they will be facing in real race competition....but some trainers (maybe they don't do this anymore) would send them out 3 or 4 abreast, and never change the order...and in so doing, these youngsters would not want to leave company...you'd see them hang when they came up on a horse, they wouldn't WANT to pull ahead... but that was then, and this is now, so I suppose that method may not be used anymore....I hope.

Did you have to add your last sentence..."I don't know where you get this stuff".... that remark was not needed...but, I'm not surprised by it.

joanied

07-04-2008, 12:13 PM

Ummm-- I thought I read that his shoes were glued on ?!?

Just the fronts.

cj's dad

07-04-2008, 12:16 PM

Just the fronts.

Thanx- I did not know that (obviously:blush:)

jognlope

07-04-2008, 12:31 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=3456907

joanied

07-04-2008, 01:01 PM

Thanx- I did not know that (obviously:blush:)

:) :) :)

Marshall Bennett

07-04-2008, 02:35 PM

Maybe the Blood Horse would have made a point of that... we'll just have to wait and see how his next work goes...if it's as slow as this one..then BB fans may have a worry...I know I'll be worried about it.

Yes, I have. Actually we are both right... you need to teach them everything, being inside, behind...all that they will be facing in real race competition....but some trainers (maybe they don't do this anymore) would send them out 3 or 4 abreast, and never change the order...and in so doing, these youngsters would not want to leave company...you'd see them hang when they came up on a horse, they wouldn't WANT to pull ahead... but that was then, and this is now, so I suppose that method may not be used anymore....I hope.

Did you have to add your last sentence..."I don't know where you get this stuff".... that remark was not needed...but, I'm not surprised by it.
When are you two gonna put on the gloves ? Maybe PA can set up a post time in the war room or elsewhere . :lol:

Dr.SwineSmeller

07-04-2008, 02:38 PM

I'm just glad to hear he can gallop.

Now there is an accurate objective assessment!!!

Dr. SwineSmeller

Dr.SwineSmeller

07-04-2008, 02:54 PM

I said it after The Belmont Stakes and I'll say it again. Big Brown will not go to post in the Haskell. Its all a smokescreen to downplay the idiocracy of sending Big Brown to post with a split hoof at Belmont.

Next thing we will hear from Dutrow's anti-team is they have decided to wait for another month to race Big Brown. He is way too far out of shape at this point to compete for the win in a G1 handicap. He'll be lucky to be ready to go in the Breeder's Cup Classic.

If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit I'm a dum@ss. (That is, unless he does go to post in the Haskell and then fails miserably, ala Belmont Stakes). If I'm right, I know I can count on CJ and his dad to give give me my props..

Dr. SwineSmeller

Shenanigans

07-04-2008, 05:59 PM

That race had absolutely nothing to do with the horse not being fit. Big Brown was in contention approaching the turn and then was eased by KD. Big Brown didn't pull himself up! The ownership for Big Brown were not out there at 5:50am to watch their horse work but your acquaintances were and they told you that BB was not ready to work. Now that's funny! You have all the answers all the time. You know this and you know that about horses but where are your owners. You are the typical backstretch worker that knows more than the trainer does. I know the type! I see them and hear from them everyday. If they had this horse or that horse they would do this or that for the horse and this one shouldn't be a trainer because they have no clue. This is what you constantly hear all the time on the backside. Ask these types why they don't go out on their own and they come back with some bull crap excuse why they don't want to train. But they know everything about the racehorse................

Joe

In contention? Every horse at the top of the stretch was "in contention". BB didn't have any gas left. Did you miss the race?:rolleyes:
Last I heard, BB wasn't the only horse on the track during his work. Sorry his owners couldn't get their lazy azzes out of bed to watch him, but the majority of the people on the backside are up and about and some can find an opportunity to watch a horse work - especially if they have some of their own on the track.;)
You are using the same line everyone else does that has a problem debating with me or get pissed when I call them out on something. My time working on the backside was not spent fraternizing with "typical backstretch workers". I made a point to seek out and learn from knowledgeable people in the business. It has paid off. Sorry it offends you and sorry I have more connections than you to find out some "news" every now and then. One thing I promise not to do is blow smoke up your bum like some like to do. If you choose not to believe anything in my post, that is your prerogative. If it makes any difference, I do have a college education.:p :rolleyes:

jotb

07-04-2008, 06:25 PM

It's interesting that you compared a New York bred's time to BB. The NY bred ticked out 2 seconds faster. Don't you think a KY Derby winner should be 2 seconds faster than a NY bred that just won a 75K? If BB is so fit I would have expected better, wouldn't you?
My disrespect of certain trainers is no reflection on the whole. If you choose to assume that of me, well, what should I care?

Hell no! "Times in workouts" mean nothing. The main idea is to see where the horse is at in training. To get something out of the workout is the goal. You are training that horse up to a specific race. Do you know how many horses over the years have worked bullets and come race day don't live up to those works. I believed the term "morning glory" is used.

This thing with BB not being fit is quite crazy to say. How can anyone say BB was not fit for the Belmont? It's not as if he had months inbetween his races. We are talking about a horse that won the Preakness and then ran 3 weeks later. His physical appearance on Belmont Day gave no indication that he was unfit. When BB was running in the Belmont he show no signs of an unfit horse. The way he was traveling down the backside approaching the far turn (everyone including Durkin) felt he was ready to pounce on the opposition and win the race. You couldn't count BB out of that race until KD asked and there was no response. It was KD that threw the towel in. He played a major role in BB's chance to win the TC. It was KD's race to lose and he did just that by that horrific beginning. He failed BB. Not the other way around.

Joe

PaceAdvantage

07-04-2008, 09:01 PM

This thing with BB not being fit is quite crazy to say. How can anyone say BB was not fit for the Belmont? It's not as if he had months inbetween his races. We are talking about a horse that won the Preakness and then ran 3 weeks later. His physical appearance on Belmont Day gave no indication that he was unfit. When BB was running in the Belmont he show no signs of an unfit horse. The way he was traveling down the backside approaching the far turn (everyone including Durkin) felt he was ready to pounce on the opposition and win the race. You couldn't count BB out of that race until KD asked and there was no response.Hey Joe, I've been saying the same exact thing, but it just falls on deaf ears.

jognlope

07-04-2008, 09:20 PM

loose shoe

again. loose shoe, pricking nail.

Again, a loose shoe.

Again, a loose shoe.

One more time, a loose shoe.

Tom

07-04-2008, 11:19 PM

So, was his slow workout desinged to prep him for his pull up on the far turn?:lol:

Big Brown.....Big Deal!

Greyfox

07-04-2008, 11:25 PM

I said it after The Belmont Stakes and I'll say it again. Big Brown will not go to post in the Haskell. ....
If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit I'm a dum@ss. (That is, unless he does go to post in the Haskell and then fails miserably, ala Belmont Stakes). If I'm right, I know I can count on CJ and his dad to give give me my props..

Dr. SwineSmeller

"If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit I'm a dum@ss."

:ThmbUp:

Admitting it, and accepting it, are two different mind processes.
Good luck on both.

Shenanigans

07-05-2008, 04:22 PM

Hey Joe, I've been saying the same exact thing, but it just falls on deaf ears.

It's falling on deaf ears because you were watching it with blind eyes.

Re-watch the race. BB is third most of the way. By the far turn, KD starts to move on BB - no response. Pay attention to the two horses in front of him. Their jockeys haven't even began to ride. By mid-turn the two front runners are starting to pull away and BB isn't staying with them - his rider still scrubbing on him. Coming out of the turn for home, not only do the front runners continue to pull away from BB, but the runners from behind catch up to him, he starts drifting out (a sign of being tired), and the runners from behind pass him. He had NOTHING left. THEN KD decides to give up and take his marbles home. If you didn't see a tired horse you were blinded by Big Brown Love. Those other horses coming up to him and passing him made BB look like he was standing still.
There have been a number of trainers critical of the way Dutrow trained the horse up to the Belmont. The horse lost a lot of training due to his foot - Remember???
Winning the KD and Preakness does NOT make a horse fit to win the Belmont. If that was the case we would have far more TC winners.

magwell

07-05-2008, 05:49 PM

jotb

07-05-2008, 07:09 PM

It's falling on deaf ears because you were watching it with blind eyes.

Re-watch the race. BB is third most of the way. By the far turn, KD starts to move on BB - no response. Pay attention to the two horses in front of him. Their jockeys haven't even began to ride. By mid-turn the two front runners are starting to pull away and BB isn't staying with them - his rider still scrubbing on him. Coming out of the turn for home, not only do the front runners continue to pull away from BB, but the runners from behind catch up to him, he starts drifting out (a sign of being tired), and the runners from behind pass him. He had NOTHING left. THEN KD decides to give up and take his marbles home. If you didn't see a tired horse you were blinded by Big Brown Love. Those other horses coming up to him and passing him made BB look like he was standing still.
There have been a number of trainers critical of the way Dutrow trained the horse up to the Belmont. The horse lost a lot of training due to his foot - Remember???
Winning the KD and Preakness does NOT make a horse fit to win the Belmont. If that was the case we would have far more TC winners.

You should watch the race again. Keep your eye on Coa the whole race. This jock did everything in his power to keep BB as wide as he could. Don't forget the leader was 3 paths off the rail. What reason should Coa have his horse in the 6 path? BB plain and simple according to everyone seems to think he only likes to be outside of horses. Well Coa did everything possible to keep him outside and wide the whole run down the backside. Coa is also the jock that closed the hole on KD the first few jumps as Da Tara crossed over him which forced KD took take up sharply. By the way, Da Tara's jock sits down and him and starts to ride going into far turn. Watch the race again!

Joe

Shenanigans

07-05-2008, 07:11 PM

After further review, I know they said he scoped clean ??? But He looked like a horse that "BLED" to me. If i owned him i dont think i would want breeders to know that he bled thru the lasix along with a history of bad feet......Just food for thought :) I hope he runs again so we can see if he is really a "good one"

Great point and something else to ponder. Of course, if you're like some people that believes everything Dutrow has told us, then you wouldn't take that into consideration. If he did bleed, then that could have been a good reason (and excuse) for his recent slow work.

Shenanigans

07-05-2008, 07:18 PM

You should watch the race again. Keep your eye on Coa the whole race. This jock did everything in his power to keep BB as wide as he could. Don't forget the leader was 3 paths off the rail. What reason should Coa have his horse in the 6 path? BB plain and simple according to everyone seems to think he only likes to be outside of horses. Well Coa did everything possible to keep him outside and wide the whole run down the backside. Coa is also the jock that closed the hole on KD the first few jumps as Da Tara crossed over him which forced KD took take up sharply. By the way, Da Tara's jock sits down and him and starts to ride going into far turn. Watch the race again!

Joe

KD is the one that took BB to the outside - watch it going into the first turn. Those jockeys are not out there to hold hands and sing Kum Ba Ya. They are there to win and do anything within the rules to do it. Coa was race riding. KD knew going into the race that could happen. Don't blame the other riders for KD's poor judgement and ride. BB could have had the whole trip on the rail and the outcome would not have been any different.
By the way, Da Tara's jockey rode him perfectly, had a fit horse under him and won the race. BB spit the bit at the top of the stretch. Watch the race again!
:kiss:

PaceAdvantage

07-05-2008, 10:50 PM

If you didn't see a tired horse you were blinded by Big Brown Love.Obviously he was a tired horse. The key point in this debate (and every debate since the Belmont) has been WHAT made him so tired.

There have been about a dozen reasons put forth to explain why he tired so badly, many of them worthy of further exploration.

Let me ask you a straight up question:

Do you honestly think that if Dutrow had put the amount and type of works into Big Brown that YOU think are required to get a horse ready for the Belmont in the three weeks between races, that Big Brown would have ran a remarkably better race given everything else remaining the same? (Same trip, same weather, same everything else)

cj's dad

07-05-2008, 11:58 PM

#1- bad trip? -I'm not sure that one can have a bad trip in a 1 1/2 mile race, specifically in the first 1/4 mile as BB was in perfect position after 7 furlongs, @ the top of the backstretch.

#2- weather? - I'm pretty sure that all the entries ran in the same heat that day.

#3- workouts?- How does one work a horse who has an injury? Also, there has not been a TC winner since '78, therefore what is the criteria for the workout patterns prepping for the Belmont Stakes- does one follow the regimen of Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic, Funny Cude or Smarty Jones???? BB was simply not good enough to win. He beat a filly in the derby, and a bunch of non achievers in the Preakness Stakes

magwell

07-06-2008, 01:28 AM

Im just saying KD went from a "lot of horse" to "no horse" too fast, that didnt look like he all of a sudden got tired, must have bled and they had to put KD under the truck, blame the jock is always a good excuse......:) but im just thinking out loud, could be wrong or ???

jognlope

07-06-2008, 07:49 AM

how do you stand yourselves? honestly? you mean you are not sick to death of the question? I guess I don't understand this capacity for pontification.

Shenanigans

07-06-2008, 09:04 AM

Obviously he was a tired horse. The key point in this debate (and every debate since the Belmont) has been WHAT made him so tired.

There have been about a dozen reasons put forth to explain why he tired so badly, many of them worthy of further exploration.

Let me ask you a straight up question:

Do you honestly think that if Dutrow had put the amount and type of works into Big Brown that YOU think are required to get a horse ready for the Belmont in the three weeks between races, that Big Brown would have ran a remarkably better race given everything else remaining the same? (Same trip, same weather, same everything else)

IMO, if BB was not hindered with the foot problems, Dutrow could have trained him more and harder. Every report I read about the horse galloping in the AM was a 1 1/4 mile gallop. That is not enough to get a horse prepared for a 1 1/2 mile race. Dutrow's arrogance didn't help either. He thought he had much the best horse and could have won without a lot of training.
Whether or not he would have won can't really be answered, but had he'd been fit for the race he would have finished much better - not spit the bit where he did.
Did the heat play a factor? Heat will wear down an unfit horse faster than a fit horse. Did his loose shoe play a factor? Not convinced of it. Too many horses have ran and won with loose and no shoes. BB surely could have overcome that. Did he bleed? A good point that Magwell pointed out. Of course, an unfit horse is more proned to bleed that a fit one.

jotb

07-06-2008, 04:09 PM

KD is the one that took BB to the outside - watch it going into the first turn. Those jockeys are not out there to hold hands and sing Kum Ba Ya. They are there to win and do anything within the rules to do it. Coa was race riding. KD knew going into the race that could happen. Don't blame the other riders for KD's poor judgement and ride. BB could have had the whole trip on the rail and the outcome would not have been any different.
By the way, Da Tara's jockey rode him perfectly, had a fit horse under him and won the race. BB spit the bit at the top of the stretch. Watch the race again!
:kiss:

You just don't get it. The Belmont Stakes this year was run before the race actually started. You see Shenanigans this race was discussed between Garcia and Eibar Coa (both born in South America). Da' Tara had more early lick than any of the other horses in the race except for BB. After the Kentucky Derby and Preakness it was quite overious that KD was going to ride the same way he did in the previous races. When jockeys have that edge they can put that rider in a bad position if they want to. Let's face it Tale Of Ekati didn't show much early lick in the majority of his route races but could be part of the early pace if instructions are given from a trainer (Tagg) who I think is not a huge fan of Dutows. There is a tremendous amount of jealousy in horse racing and Dutrow's not liked by many other trainers. KD was pretty cocky throughout and I'm sure other jockeys were not happy with him either.

Keeping the above in mind I can know answer your comment about "jockeys holding hands and sing Kum Ba Ya and they are to win and do everything within the rules". In the case of Da' Tara he went to the top and never stopped riding his horse to win. In the case of Tale of Ekati it's a different story. Coa made sure KD was not getting that hole and he succeeded. It might look like Coa is doing the right thing for the horse but he's not riding his horse. Coa was riding KD and not riding his race. This same tactic continues the rest of the race. When Coa puts himself into the middle of the racetrack (when he has the chance to run alongside of the leader) forcing BB even wider (without breaking any rules) it certainly helps the leading horse reserve the necessary energy to finish. You would think if Coa was trying to win the race he would have saved as much ground as he could. Coa had that opportunity!

The horse to beat was BB and that race was weak and both rider's knew if it sets up the way we want it DA' Tara would not be caught by the race of the field. This was the only way BB would lose this race. In this business, one hand washes the other, and I wouldn't be surprised if Garcia took care of Coa (money wise) the next week. If you don't think this happens in racing, I think you might want to look into another hobby.

Coa is notorious for things like this. Do you remember the situation with Jerry Bailey? Do you remember when Coa came to United States and claimed he was "7lb bug rider" with only 11 wins in his home country? Well I do. He win 7 races in a row displaying considerable maturity in the saddle. I believe it was Walter Blum who came out and said " if he's an apprentice" "I'm a jet pilot". The racing officials in Venezuelan had falsified the riding records of Coa and six other jockeys, a scandal that was dubbed "Saddlegate." Coa was suspennded for a year.

After reading this, I'm sure you will continue and respond with the same nonsense about fitness, running out of gas, possibly bled, or some other ridiculious thing like I need to watch the replay again because I will then put you on the pay no mind list forever.

Joe

john del riccio

07-06-2008, 04:25 PM

You just don't get it. The Belmont Stakes this year was run before the race actually started. You see Shenanigans this race was discussed between Garcia and Eibar Coa (both born in South America). Da' Tara had more early lick than any of the other horses in the race except for BB. After the Kentucky Derby and Preakness it was quite overious that KD was going to ride the same way he did in the previous races. When jockeys have that edge they can put that rider in a bad position if they want to. Let's face it Tale Of Ekati didn't show much early lick in the majority of his route races but could be part of the early pace if instructions are given from a trainer (Tagg) who I think is not a huge fan of Dutows. There is a tremendous amount of jealousy in horse racing and Dutrow's not liked by many other trainers. KD was pretty cocky throughout and I'm sure other jockeys were not happy with him either.

Keeping the above in mind I can know answer your comment about "jockeys holding hands and sing Kum Ba Ya and they are to win and do everything within the rules". In the case of Da' Tara he went to the top and never stopped riding his horse to win. In the case of Tale of Ekati it's a different story. Coa made sure KD was not getting that hole and he succeeded. It might look like Coa is doing the right thing for the horse but he's not riding his horse. Coa was riding KD and not riding his race. This same tactic continues the rest of the race. When Coa puts himself into the middle of the racetrack (when he has the chance to run alongside of the leader) forcing BB even wider (without breaking any rules) it certainly helps the leading horse reserve the necessary energy to finish. You would think if Coa was trying to win the race he would have saved as much ground as he could. Coa had that opportunity!

The horse to beat was BB and that race was weak and both rider's knew if it sets up the way we want it DA' Tara would not be caught by the race of the field. This was the only way BB would lose this race. In this business, one hand washes the other, and I wouldn't be surprised if Garcia took care of Coa (money wise) the next week. If you don't think this happens in racing, I think you might want to look into another hobby.

Coa is notorious for things like this. Do you remember the situation with Jerry Bailey? Do you remember when Coa came to United States and claimed he was "7lb bug rider" with only 11 wins in his home country? Well I do. He win 7 races in a row displaying considerable maturity in the saddle. I believe it was Walter Blum who came out and said " if he's an apprentice" "I'm a jet pilot". The racing officials in Venezuelan had falsified the riding records of Coa and six other jockeys, a scandal that was dubbed "Saddlegate." Coa was suspennded for a year.

After reading this, I'm sure you will continue and respond with the same nonsense about fitness, running out of gas, possibly bled, or some other ridiculious thing like I need to watch the replay again because I will then put you on the pay no mind list forever.

Joe

Joe,

I think the above post is the definition of "being schooled", and you did it like a gentlemen to boot. Well done.

John

Shenanigans

07-06-2008, 07:53 PM

You just don't get it. The Belmont Stakes this year was run before the race actually started. You see Shenanigans this race was discussed between Garcia and Eibar Coa (both born in South America). Da' Tara had more early lick than any of the other horses in the race except for BB. After the Kentucky Derby and Preakness it was quite overious that KD was going to ride the same way he did in the previous races. When jockeys have that edge they can put that rider in a bad position if they want to. Let's face it Tale Of Ekati didn't show much early lick in the majority of his route races but could be part of the early pace if instructions are given from a trainer (Tagg) who I think is not a huge fan of Dutows. There is a tremendous amount of jealousy in horse racing and Dutrow's not liked by many other trainers. KD was pretty cocky throughout and I'm sure other jockeys were not happy with him either.

Keeping the above in mind I can know answer your comment about "jockeys holding hands and sing Kum Ba Ya and they are to win and do everything within the rules". In the case of Da' Tara he went to the top and never stopped riding his horse to win. In the case of Tale of Ekati it's a different story. Coa made sure KD was not getting that hole and he succeeded. It might look like Coa is doing the right thing for the horse but he's not riding his horse. Coa was riding KD and not riding his race. This same tactic continues the rest of the race. When Coa puts himself into the middle of the racetrack (when he has the chance to run alongside of the leader) forcing BB even wider (without breaking any rules) it certainly helps the leading horse reserve the necessary energy to finish. You would think if Coa was trying to win the race he would have saved as much ground as he could. Coa had that opportunity!

The horse to beat was BB and that race was weak and both rider's knew if it sets up the way we want it DA' Tara would not be caught by the race of the field. This was the only way BB would lose this race. In this business, one hand washes the other, and I wouldn't be surprised if Garcia took care of Coa (money wise) the next week. If you don't think this happens in racing, I think you might want to look into another hobby.

Coa is notorious for things like this. Do you remember the situation with Jerry Bailey? Do you remember when Coa came to United States and claimed he was "7lb bug rider" with only 11 wins in his home country? Well I do. He win 7 races in a row displaying considerable maturity in the saddle. I believe it was Walter Blum who came out and said " if he's an apprentice" "I'm a jet pilot". The racing officials in Venezuelan had falsified the riding records of Coa and six other jockeys, a scandal that was dubbed "Saddlegate." Coa was suspennded for a year.

After reading this, I'm sure you will continue and respond with the same nonsense about fitness, running out of gas, possibly bled, or some other ridiculious thing like I need to watch the replay again because I will then put you on the pay no mind list forever.

Joe

Jockeys do that all the time in these big races, especially the Belmont with a possible TC winner. Angel Cordero was notorious for "riding the other horse" (not just in big races).
Did you forget the 2004 Belmont? Do you think those other two riders were riding their horses to win??? Smarty Jones still finished second after wing-dinging it with the other two horses. All my point is that if BB was fit, he would have finished better - not spitting the bit at the top of the stretch.
Oh, and do me a favor - PLEASE put me on your "pay no mind list" forever. Your method of debating is repetitive and almost boring - we're obviously not going to agree on the fitness of BB.:kiss:

PaceAdvantage

07-07-2008, 02:03 AM

BB was simply not good enough to win. He beat a filly in the derby, and a bunch of non achievers in the Preakness StakesYeah, that Belmont Stakes field was super-formidable. Everyone thought so going into the race.

In fact, after Casino Drive scratched out, most pundits thought the race actually became HARDER for BB to win....

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

Are you kidding me? He destroys the best 3yos around in the Kentucky Derby, destroys a weaker field in the Preakness, and something goes horribly wrong (short of breaking down) in the Belmont, and you're going to attribute that to strength of field?

Let's review:

How many lengths did Big Brown beat the following Belmont Stakes runners by in races leading up to the Belmont Stakes:

Da'Tara | Florida Derby | 23 1/2 lengths
Tale of Ekati | Kentucky Derby | 11 lengths
Macho Again | Preakness | 5 1/4 lenghts
Denis of Cork | Kentucky Derby | 8 1/4 lengths
Anak Nakal | Kentucky Derby | 15 lengths
Icabad Crane | Preakness |5 3/4 lengths
Can you see what I'm getting at here?

Shenanigans

07-07-2008, 07:05 AM

Yeah, that Belmont Stakes field was super-formidable. Everyone thought so going into the race.

In fact, after Casino Drive scratched out, most pundits thought the race actually became HARDER for BB to win....

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

Are you kidding me? He destroys the best 3yos around in the Kentucky Derby, destroys a weaker field in the Preakness, and something goes horribly wrong (short of breaking down) in the Belmont, and you're going to attribute that to strength of field?

Let's review:

How many lengths did Big Brown beat the following Belmont Stakes runners by in races leading up to the Belmont Stakes:

Da'Tara | Florida Derby | 23 1/2 lengths
Tale of Ekati | Kentucky Derby | 11 lengths
Macho Again | Preakness | 5 1/4 lenghts
Denis of Cork | Kentucky Derby | 8 1/4 lengths
Anak Nakal | Kentucky Derby | 15 lengths
Icabad Crane | Preakness |5 3/4 lengths
Can you see what I'm getting at here?

I can see what your getting at - he's much the "best" horse. Maybe then you can see what I am getting at when I say he wasn't fit enough to finish at least in the money in the Belmont. A horse that is much the "best" in the field AND fit shouldn't have spit the bit at the top of the stretch.;)

jotb

07-07-2008, 07:14 AM

Jockeys do that all the time in these big races, especially the Belmont with a possible TC winner. Angel Cordero was notorious for "riding the other horse" (not just in big races).
Did you forget the 2004 Belmont? Do you think those other two riders were riding their horses to win??? Smarty Jones still finished second after wing-dinging it with the other two horses. All my point is that if BB was fit, he would have finished better - not spitting the bit at the top of the stretch.
Oh, and do me a favor - PLEASE put me on your "pay no mind list" forever. Your method of debating is repetitive and almost boring - we're obviously not going to agree on the fitness of BB.:kiss:

No, I didn't forget about the 2004 Belmont. Take a look at my thread starter back in 2004 after the race.

06-06-2004, 02:29 AM #1
jotb
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 685
vCash: 3600 Why did Smarty Lose!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello all:

Smarty was done in by a fast 2nd half mile of 46.79. Even the great Secretariat ran slower from the half mile pole to the one mile marker (48). Chances are this was the fastest internal fraction in Belmont Stakes History and it certainly took it's toll the last 1/4 mile by the 26.98. Actually they ran the last 1/2 mile in 52.00. Now I know why they couldn't find Rock Hard Ten and Eddington with a search warrant. I have to wonder what the hell Bailey and Solis were thinking. Supposely these two high profile riders have a great sense of pace. The bottom line here is, they both wanted to play spoiler. Bailey was pushing on Eddington for 5/8ths of a mile and a rider of his quality knows better than to excrete that much energy early on for that long of a run especially in a mile and a half race.

Joe

cj's dad

07-07-2008, 04:42 PM

PA- collectively, what have the KD and Preakness entrants done since those races- other than Gayego, has anyone won ??

My point is that for whatever reason, BB was not good enough, fit enough, or healed enough to win that day.

Shenanigans

07-07-2008, 07:26 PM

No, I didn't forget about the 2004 Belmont. Take a look at my thread starter back in 2004 after the race.

06-06-2004, 02:29 AM #1
jotb
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 685
vCash: 3600 Why did Smarty Lose!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello all:

Smarty was done in by a fast 2nd half mile of 46.79. Even the great Secretariat ran slower from the half mile pole to the one mile marker (48). Chances are this was the fastest internal fraction in Belmont Stakes History and it certainly took it's toll the last 1/4 mile by the 26.98. Actually they ran the last 1/2 mile in 52.00. Now I know why they couldn't find Rock Hard Ten and Eddington with a search warrant. I have to wonder what the hell Bailey and Solis were thinking. Supposely these two high profile riders have a great sense of pace. The bottom line here is, they both wanted to play spoiler. Bailey was pushing on Eddington for 5/8ths of a mile and a rider of his quality knows better than to excrete that much energy early on for that long of a run especially in a mile and a half race.

Joe

I think everyone knew what Bailey and Solis were up to that day. We obviously agree on jockeys playing games in races but have a problem with agreeing about the fitness of BB in the Belmont.
I am honored you didn't put me on your "pay no mind forever" list.:p :kiss:

john del riccio

07-07-2008, 07:40 PM

I think everyone knew what Bailey and Solis were up to that day. We obviously agree on jockeys playing games in races but have a problem with agreeing about the fitness of BB in the Belmont.
I am honored you didn't put me on your "pay no mind forever" list.:p :kiss:

Shenanigans,

In my humble opinion, I think is great that a guy who has seen it from every side (JOTB) is willing to give it to you as straight as an arrow. This game, aint ever as it appears, thats why we do what we do. Think about what he is telling you...

Never have I been so lucky as to take a shot on the Belmont winner in the win/place pool. It wasn't because the I knew the jocks were riding agianst BB, and it certanly wasn't because I thought he was more talented than BB (see PA's post (over 20 length trouncing in the FL Derby), it was becasue PTC's clocker has said BB looked like crap. Geez, 30-1 on a horse thats likely to be close to the pace in the BEL and Zito trains him while the 3-5 fav is not right.... AND the scenario that JOTB is laying out for you is gonna happen by default.....

I am humbled almost every day in this game, Joe is trying to show you something, as a gentlemen, take it, put it in your bag of tricks, and use it going forward.

No one is a bigger a fan of BIG BROWN than me, but given all the trainer bullshit (did I just get beeped), I am quickly beccoming sick of all of it all.
Its hard to to get upset when this kind of nonsense gets thrown in the way of what the sport is intened to promote. If you think that nonse like this doesn't hapen every day, I am here to twl you, it does.

I am officially off my soapbox now.

John

The Judge

07-07-2008, 07:46 PM

I didn't believe that a big name jockey would pull a fast one in a big race with all eyes watching until I saw the end of 2003 Funny Cide Kentucky Derby. Santos and Day what when on there? Go to You Tube if you need a refesher.

The Derby in the biggest race in the country.

Shenanigans

07-07-2008, 07:59 PM

Shenanigans,

In my humble opinion, I think is great that a guy who has seen it from every side (JOTB) is willing to give it to you as straight as an arrow. This game, aint ever as it appears, thats why we do what we do. Think about what he is telling you...

Never have I been so lucky as to take a shot on the Belmont winner in the win/place pool. It wasn't because the I knew the jocks were riding agianst BB, and it certanly wasn't because I thought he was more talented than BB (see PA's post (over 20 length trouncing in the FL Derby), it was becasue PTC's clocker has said BB looked like crap. Geez, 30-1 on a horse thats likely to be close to the pace in the BEL and Zito trains him while the 3-5 fav is not right.... AND the scenario that JOTB is laying out for you is gonna happen by default.....

I am humbled almost every day in this game, Joe is trying to show you something, as a gentlemen, take it, put it in your bag of tricks, and use it going forward.

No one is a bigger a fan of BIG BROWN than me, but given all the trainer bullshit (did I just get beeped), I am quickly beccoming sick of all of it all.
Its hard to to get upset when this kind of nonsense gets thrown in the way of what the sport is intened to promote. If you think that nonse like this doesn't hapen every day, I am here to twl you, it does.

I am officially off my soapbox now.

John

I too have seen this game "from every side". I started out as a hotwalker and worked my way up. Other than the backside of the track, I have worked in the test barns to the racing offices. I know "what is going on". As I stated in many of my posts I am keenly aware of the problems the industry is facing.
I don't know why you are so bothered by mine and JOTB's debating. If you read my last post to him did I not admit we agree on some things and not others? Just because I don't agree with him doesn't mean I know nothing about the industry and the "nonsense" that occurs in it. There are many different opinions and ideas of the problems that face racing and ways to "solve" them. Some of us have stronger opinions than others. That's the whole point in debating. My apologies that it bothers you so.

GlenninOhio

07-07-2008, 08:04 PM

Not to mention what Pat Day on Forty Niner did to Gary Stevens and Winning Colors in the 1988 Preakness, though this was allegedly at the instructions of trainer Woody Stephens.

Quote from 5/22/88 NY Times article (written by Steven Crist):

"What decided this Preakness was the trainer Woody Stephens's decision to send Forty Niner after Winning Colors from the start. In the Derby, Winning Colors had bounded out to an unchallenged early lead and then held off Forty Niner by a neck at the finish. Stephens chose that strategy because he was concerned about Forty Niner's ability to negotiate the Derby distance. Today, he told the jockey Pat Day to keep Winning Colors from getting to the front.

Forty Niner broke just inside Winning Colors and the two raced as a team through fractions of 0:23 1/5, 0:47 and 1:11 1/5. The fractions were not extraordinarily fast, but the two leaders were locked in a nasty duel. Forty Niner kept the filly very wide around the first turn, and they bumped repeatedly down the backstretch.

''We were eight or nine lengths off the inside fence and we were bumping continuously'' said Gary Stevens, Winning Colors's rider. ''Pat wasn't concerned about anybody getting through or maybe even winning the race.''

Stevens thought that Woody Stephens had set out to beat the filly at all costs, and Stevens was bitter about the result.

''I don't blame Pat, I blame one man,'' he said, clearly referring to Forty Niner's trainer. ''Jealousy's a powerful thing and it cost that man a lot more than it cost us.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEEDA153AF931A15756C0A96E9482 60

PaceAdvantage

07-07-2008, 08:42 PM

joanied

07-07-2008, 09:22 PM

Shenanigans

07-07-2008, 10:37 PM

The bottom line to me is so obvious, I have a hard time understanding why some can't see it this way:

Big Brown got destroyed in the Belmont...even if Kent didn't pull him up, he would have been lucky to beat a couple of runners.

To me, it's so obvious that this was not the result of a missed work or two. As others have rightly stated, horses simply don't fall apart like this just because they missed a work or two. Yes, maybe if they are making their first start in 200 days, they will need every single work they can get.

But Big Brown was coming off of the Derby and Preakness in the span of two weeks. Even with ZERO works leading up to the Belmont, he should have been fit enough to be HIGHLY COMPETITIVE with the field they assembled for the Belmont Stakes.
Big Brown, going into the Belmont, was a finely tuned athletic physical specimen. You don't go from destroying your competition to finishing up the track just because you missed a work or two.

Why do you think trainers get nervous when they miss a few days of training?? It's not just the works that get a horse into shape. Galloping just about everyday is what gets a horse fit and keeps a horse fit. BB missed a lot of training.
I don't understand your theory of a KD and Preakness winner should be fit enough to win the Belmont. We would have more TC winners if that was the case. He had 3 weeks up to the Belmont. His hoof gave him trouble in week 2. While he walked and stood in his stall his rivals probably were galloping 2 miles everyday. And you're telling me they didn't have an edge over him?
OK, if he was fit, then his only other excuse would be that he was unable to get 1 1/2 miles. I would want to think the horse has too much class not to overcome a loose shoe and a poor ride. Like someone stated - "BB was in contention at the top of the stretch" - he made it that far on the loose shoe and a monkey on his back, so why would he stop there?? Here's my reason he stopped there: He looked tired and was tired. He did not look like a horse having a rough time with footing. He just looked tired.