Why not have trainers continue to run in their own names when suspended?

[takeout]

Seeing as how suspensions are a farce anyway (because the horses keep on running) why not just put something next to a suspended trainer’s name in the pps instead of them using someone else's name? It sure would be a lot better for the stats, which can really get mucked up with all of the different names that are used. I sometimes see trainers on suspension use two other names and have seen even more. Often they are just names and not even connected to the barn. I remember one case where the “name” wasn’t even on the grounds and never had been. Just thinking out loud but this stuff screws up the stats bigtime and I can’t think of any real reason for it.

[Greyfox]

Seeing as how suspensions are a farce anyway (because the horses keep on running) why not just put something next to a suspended trainer’s name in the pps instead of them using someone else's name? .

Yes. Some use surrogates and that is wrong too.
Suspended should mean suspended.
You wouldn't let a person continue to drive a car in his own name with a suspended license would you? Effectively, that is what you are suggesting with respect to horse racing.

[onefast99]

I have noticed in the programs a few times where the track handicapper says "first time out for new barn" when indeed it is the suspended trainers assistant.

[ryesteve]

You wouldn't let a person continue to drive a car in his own name with a suspended license would you? Effectively, that is what you are suggesting with respect to horse racing.I thought the point was just to let us know who the horse really belongs to when we see an unfamiliar name listed as the trainer, not to actually give the suspended trainer permission to keep working.

[slewis]

I have noticed in the programs a few times where the track handicapper says "first time out for new barn" when indeed it is the suspended trainers assistant.

The Little Guy would NEVER make such a stupid mistake......

As for Blewitt.............

Oh well, one out of two ain't bad.

[onefast99]

The Little Guy would NEVER make such a stupid mistake......

As for Blewitt.............

Oh well, one out of two ain't bad.
I saw one a few weeks ago on Julian canets horse where he had Frank P as his assistant and the program read "goes for the third trainer in three starts" the horse won and paid $8.60.

[takeout]

I thought the point was just to let us know who the horse really belongs to when we see an unfamiliar name listed as the trainer, not to actually give the suspended trainer permission to keep working.
Yes. That’s what I meant. Why confuse the issue further with a bunch of different names? The trainer would still be on suspension, just without all of the musical chairs with the names that screw up the trainer stats bigtime.

[njcurveball]

The racing form needs to add a stable field where they could put this information. Harness had this a long time ago in the program, but I do not know if they still use it. You didn't need to know the trainer's name as it said something like "Stanley Dancer Stable".

When Blasi takes over for Asmussen, the large punters know it is just a name change. Lake goes on suspension and his girlfriend (I cant think of her name at the moment) takes over. In Chicago they use Slomkowski on some Catalano horses.

It would be best for the track to put the stable in the program and make it known to everyone. Only problem is convincing the track we have the technology to add a new field. :bang:

Jim

[takeout]

You wouldn't let a person continue to drive a car in his own name with a suspended license would you?
A person with a suspended license shouldn’t be driving a car in anyone’s name. If they get caught they go to jail. That’s why trainer suspensions are farces. Trainers are allowed to keep “driving” in others’ names.
Suspended should mean suspended.
I agree totally. Why not shut down their barns (don’t let their horses run) until the suspension is over? That way there’s no new names messing up the stats and suspended would actually mean suspended.

[takeout]

The racing form needs to add a stable field where they could put this information.
Agree totally. This type of info should be standard in ALL PPs. PPs have gotten much better over the years but there are still many factual things that should be in them that aren’t. They contain lots of educated guesses and value-added whatnots but actual factual stuff, like what we’re talking about, is lacking.

[bigmack]

Any thoughts from Ron Tiller @ HDW on how they handle such change of hands?

[JohnGalt1]

The same thing happens when a horse ships to another track where the trainer isn't licensed and the horse is listed with a local trainer.

In the trainer stats under the pps you'll see the local trainers stats for first time with trainer even though the local trainer had nothing to do with the training.

[Tom]

Any thoughts from Ron Tiller @ HDW on how they handle such change of hands?Ron has the data, HTR puts it right in several of it's PP screens....trainer and jock for each race.

[BIG49010]

Back in the 80 and 90's Arlington Park would put the assistant trainers name in the program, and when Merrill Scherer was ruled off for a year the Assistant Giardelli became the program trainer and a his assistant was the barn foreman at the time. I have treated the assistant as if he were the trainer for my data, and if works out quite well, ever since the days of Merrill because the general public has no clue who these guys are and tend to overlook them.

You can look back when Dutrow, Asmussen, etc are off the program they win at about the same percentage and the roi goes up.

[takeout]

The same thing happens when a horse ships to another track where the trainer isn't licensed and the horse is listed with a local trainer.

In the trainer stats under the pps you'll see the local trainers stats for first time with trainer even though the local trainer had nothing to do with the training.
Good point! That’s something else that screws up the trainer stats. I had forgotten about that one and I see it ALL the time. :blush:

And, there’s the seldom seen thing where a trainer’s horse goes to another track and starts there for a trainer with the same last name. In the PPs it’s assumed that it’s the same barn. Most of the time it is but there are exceptions. Sometimes the horse has actually changed ownership when these rare last name coincidences happen. Consequently there is no “previously trained by” and no first-time-with-trainer stat in the PPs, and so on. Admittedly this is a rare occurrence (usually takes a pretty common last name) but yet another example of how trainer stats end up messed up and in these cases completely omitted.

PS: I’ve often thought that putting the owner’s name right after the “previously trained by” in the PPs would go a long way towards helping make sense of what actually happened. Suspension, sale or whatever.

[takeout]

Ron has the data, HTR puts it right in several of it's PP screens....trainer and jock for each race.
Do they have anything with owner? It would certainly help tell the difference as to suspension or change of ownership.

[takeout]

the general public has no clue who these guys are and tend to overlook them.
I’ve noticed that too. Often, if it’s not one of the bigger trainers, even some of the regulars are slow to find out. I’ve seen a trainer get suspended and then his assistant get suspended while the trainer is still on suspension, hence they had to go 3 deep in the never ending bag of names. By the time they get down to that third guy, NOBODY knows who the heck it is unless they remember the horses or the owner.

I don’t wonder that the ROI goes up. At some venues the information just isn’t made public or is extremely hard to find. Racing has been content for years to let its customers twist in the wind when it comes to basic factual information like this. If they’re worried about the public's perception, I think that ship has sailed. Putting it out there would do a lot more for their public perception than trying to hide it.

[njcurveball]

Do they have anything with owner? It would certainly help tell the difference as to suspension or change of ownership.

HTR has the owner field in the trainer stats screen and also available in the exports. Owner/Trainer can be much more profitable than Jockey/Trainer today. It IS valuable, you are right. :ThmbUp:

[onefast99]

What happens when the owners run under different names? I have seen this plenty of times, a persons real name in one state and a stable name in another!

[takeout]

What happens when the owners run under different names? I have seen this plenty of times, a persons real name in one state and a stable name in another!
Good question. That’s another thing that keeps things messed up.

Also, if a trainer has his name down as owner when he gets suspended, he not only has to use a new “name” for trainer but owner as well. This muddies up the stats even further.

And, another one I forgot about with trainers is when they want to run more than one horse in a race and not as an entry. They just run the other one/s in other trainers’ names. And the stats get more mucked up.

With all of the shenanigans that are allowed to go on with trainer and owner names it often amazes me that the stats in the pps work as well as they do.

This stuff would be so easy to fix that my only conclusion is that they don’t want to. Maybe it’s all about keeping the entry box full and nothing else matters. Certainly not the customer.

[SmartyMarty]

the stats DO get screwed up..

I once posed the question to Crist during a Q & A session as it related to Formulator 4..

He dumbed up, said it was the first time he ever heard of such a thing and moved to the next Q..

[takeout]

Why am I not surprised. :bang:

Owner and trainer names should be part of the main indexing of the data right along with horse name, date, track, and race number. It would clear up a lot of the nonsense or at least bring more of it to the light of day.