Sheets Players

[cosmo96]

I seem to do best with Ragozin Sheets. I would like to hear from other players. Which do you prefer Ragozin or Thoro-Graph? Why do you prefer one over the other? I am not concerned with the price of the sheets. I just want the most accurate.

[JeremyJet]

I seem to do best with Ragozin Sheets. I would like to hear from other players. Which do you prefer Ragozin or Thoro-Graph? Why do you prefer one over the other? I am not concerned with the price of the sheets. I just want the most accurate.

That's up for debate. Best way to find out is to give them both a try and see what is best for you.

But before you do that, I suggest you learn as much as you can about the methodology. Thoro-Graph offers a Race of the Week, for free every week, so I would look into that if I were you. You can also download the previuos days sheets for free in the Redboard Room.

As for the Ragozin sheets, I would recomend you buy the seminar tapes they offer. They're great.

JeremyJet

[njcurveball]

I am not concerned with the price of the sheets.

Seriously? So if a 3rd party had sheets for $500 a day per track and were much more accurate than the other two you would be in line to buy a few tracks every day?

[NYPlayer]

I haven't had much experience with the Thorograph numbers. I use the Ragozin Sheets and do very well with them.

What attracted me to Ragozin is his conservative philosophy on variant-making ("conservative" does not describe his politics, though). I first picked up a copy of his book "The Odds Must Be Crazy" back in 1999 when I was relatively new to handicapping. I had been using only the DRF data, and was suspicious of the BSF speed figures, using them only as a rough guide to indicate a horse's total abilities. There were times that I thought a certain race was faster or slower than the BSF indicated (after cross referencing with the DRF track variant) and would bet my opinion if I felt there was value. Also, I liked early speed in horses.

I came to realize that Beyer's method of projecting a race was flawed because it is based on the opinion of the handicapper and not the physical realities of racetrack conditions. Ragozin took just the opposite view, and only changed the raw rating for a race when in could be demonstrated empirically that the track was influencing the raw times. Ragozin also adjusts figures for the influence of wind. I think this is a very important calculation, and prevents confusion about whether it was acutally track resilience or weather conditions that influenced the race times.

However, since I was always leary of the whole idea of using patterns of figures to handicap, I didn't start using the Rags until 2004. I now understand that form cycle is truly the most fundamental of all handicapping concepts - the horse is a dynamic organism that changes through time, and it's condition is impacted by the exertion made in its prior races. This either sets the horse up for future improvement, or causes a decline.

When it comes to Rags vs. Thorograph, The Ragozin organization has more observers and more experience. Brown has some unprovable ideas about track variants, such as that the track changes speed throughout the day. This may or may not be true, but how can he accurately measure this? I think he falls prey to making numbers based on his opinion like Beyer, but I couldn't say for sure because I haven't used his numbers. However, I was at Belmont Park about a month ago and hit a 10/1 horse that was shipping from Woodbine which on the Rags was at least as fast as the favorite. The shipper beat the favorite by about one or two lengths. After the race, some guy near me wanted to compare notes with Thorograph. Jerry Brown had rated the favorite about 4 or 5 points faster than the longshot winner, and this guy had bet the favorite at 2/1 which would seem reasonable given the spread of the figures. So this was one instance in which Thorograph users were not able to get an accurate read of the race.

[magwell]

I find the Ragozin sheets to work better for me, also more "user friendly", But thats me,I have friends that like Browns better.....The Sheets are a must for turf races...

[cosmo96]

Ragozin costs $35.00. Througo-Graph costs $25.00. If I have a good ROI, I am not worried about $10.00.

[classhandicapper]

I think the major difference is in their track variant methodology.

Brown believes that the speed of the surface changes fairly often due to moisture changes, track maintenance etc.... and breaks races out from the day fairly often, but in a logical way.

Friedman tends to break races out infrequently without clear evidence.

I think they are both right and wrong at times because it's hard to seperate the impact of pace on final time from the impact of a change of track speed on time unless you have high quality pace figures and a solid understanding of the relationships between pace and final time (no easy task).

Both make high quality speed figures.

[Imriledup]

I think its responsible to at least question if the track variant changes.

[njcurveball]

Ragozin costs $35.00. Througo-Graph costs $25.00. If I have a good ROI, I am not worried about $10.00.

Data costs are part of expenses. If you plan on playing one track 250 days a year 250 * 10 = $2,500.

If you can make $25,000 at that track per year consistently, then you obviously do not need any advice given here. $2,500 extra at that point, would "only" be 10% of your profits. But remember, you also BOUGHT the sheets, so it is actually $35 * 250 = $8,750. That is a tough nut to crack.

However, most "wanna be" professionals are lucky to averahe $10 profit per track per day. If they go through their records they might find they wagered at 3,000 or more "track days" in a year. At that point, $10 extra per track, per day would be $30,000 in expenses. If you are lucky enough to make $30,000 a year, it all has went to expenses. Of course, you have to buy the sheets at $35 per track, so we are now talking, $105,000 a year.

On a given day I can bet into 20 tracks. Over the course of the year, I probably am betting in over 3,000 "track days". No matter how good the information, there is NO WAY I could afford $100,000+ a year in data costs.

Data costs, especially PER TRACK data costs add up quickly, so be careful what you wish for.

[trigger]

I seem to do best with Ragozin Sheets. I would like to hear from other players. Which do you prefer Ragozin or Thoro-Graph? Why do you prefer one over the other? I am not concerned with the price of the sheets. I just want the most accurate.

I prefer the TG sheets......I started off with the Rags in the early 1990's and they were a revelation. However, over time with increased competition from other speed figure makers(Beyers,etc.) impacting(lowering) the odds of certain sheet plays, I gradually converted to TGs as I was more successful with them and, early on ,the Rags were not available on the internet. (I would show up at the track and the Rags would be sold out!)
The TGs also include additional info on Trainer, Jockey, and Sire Stats. Also, TG allows you to select any 9 individual races from any track running on a given day for their standard $25 per track fee. I like this feature as I prefer to bet on full field allowance and stakes races.

[hracingplyr]

handicapping contest won by Roger Neubauer 50k first prize. used the Thorograph Sheets for his contest win. 50k first prize. also about 30k in winnings using real money.

[SOUTHERN SLEW]

I would appreciate if anyone that has the sheets from 9/21 8th race Belmont Park, can you email me Iron Curtain sheet. Also 9/7 9th race at Belmont Park, Salt Water Reign, thanks very much
steve

[cj]

You are probably better off asking on those sites. They are probably items you can buy. I doubt either site wants their work given away.

[lamboguy]

i know one thing about the ragozin sheeets, lenny freedman never wanted to go public with them. i realise he does well, and i was betting house quinella's off the sheets before they were sold to the public. i won alot of money with the house q's. the sheets definately produced the fire power. today i beleive there are to many people that get sheets. i know it depends how you interpret them, and how good your money management system is. i don't and will never use any type of sheet, racing form, buyer number or any other form of a number. i do most of my work out of memory, and seeing horses train with either my own 2 eyes, or someone else's that i trust. i also have alot of horses that have gone thru my hands that are running all over the country, so alot of times i can call a trainer to find out how the horses are training even though i don't own them.

[SOUTHERN SLEW]

I would appreciate if anyone that has the sheets from 9/21 8th race Belmont Park, can you email me Iron Curtain sheet. Also 9/7 9th race at Belmont Park, Salt Water Reign, thanks very much
steve
I actually purchased both days at the track but somehow I misplaced them and would really appreciate if anyone of the sheet players still have those days and can email them to me