National Turf

[joelouis]

I have to plug National Turf I followed them last week and believe me it was the best week i have had in a long long time. I built up a payroll for del mar. TY Bob Selvin and Jeff S. and crew.:)

[Imriledup]

How exactly did they help you?

[Turfday]

really strong in the last nine racing days. The last five racing days are archived on our website www.nationalturf.com exactly as presented to our users.

We do the work and we take pride in the product we offer. Like all services of this type, we're certainly wrong more than we are right.

But there are often times I can steer people off short-price losers that doesn't "show" in the record. And giving out a fair odds line has been a real valuable aid to the players who are paying attention.

Thanks again.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

really strong in the last nine racing days. The last five racing days are archived on our website www.nationalturf.com exactly as presented to our users.

We do the work and we take pride in the product we offer. Like all services of this type, we're certainly wrong more than we are right.

But there are often times I can steer people off short-price losers that doesn't "show" in the record. And giving out a fair odds line has been a real valuable aid to the players who are paying attention.

Thanks again.

Whom, if I may ask, "Authorized" you Bob, as an "authorized advertiser"?

And exactly what are you authorized to advertise? Pardon my confusion...

Dr. SwineSmeller

[JBmadera]

Back in the early to mid 90's, I think, Bob produced the Handicappers Report for the So Cal circut (ex fairplex) - outstanding product. JB

[ezpace]

why sell the info just bet it.

[Turfday]

I'm an authorized advertiser on this board as there are many others who support this board and thus are able to promote our products or services.

And if you're wondering "Who"...then it's Mike, who runs Pace Advantage.

[Turfday]

That was back in April, 1976. Was very, very well received in its time and we were the first to offer published workout reports. Of course, there was no internet then, so everything was actually printed on a printing press and mailed using postal mail. We had a long and great run with HR but the internet changed the dynamics.

But have had no affiliation with it for many years.

[JBmadera]

the internet changed everything, now I'm struggling to catch up! i still remember when we could "see" via your report how low level los al claimers would be serious overlays when racing at holly - winning rebel is still one of my all time fav horses.


I'll have to check out National Turf.

jb

[ezpace]

do you bring horseplayers being the "progarm traders of H-racing"?????

YOu probably have over 100 large$ AND MANY MORE SMALLplayers that come down on the same horses

lowering the odds tremedously if they hit.. I think the same of you as

I do program traders of stocks and commodities.. they are the TERMITES OF

THE MARKET....AND THIS GAME. FWIW.

[pic6vic]

do you bring horseplayers being the "progarm traders of H-racing"?????

YOu probably have over 100 large$ AND MANY MORE SMALLplayers that come down on the same horses

lowering the odds tremedously if they hit.. I think the same of you as

I do program traders of stocks and commodities.. they are the TERMITES OF

THE MARKET....AND THIS GAME. FWIW.

Someone was nice enough to say thank you to someone who provided a service and then some people blast that service. Just because you think that you do not need help some people use these services with good results. I have been a customer of Bob's since 1977 so I am a little prejudiced. In the 30 years he and Jeff have provided information for the average fan, which was not available anywhere. Please if someone compliments an advertiser, why would you bad mouth the advertiser.

[ezpace]

Someone was nice enough to say thank you to someone who provided a service and then some people blast that service. Just because you think that you do not need help some people use these services with good results. I have been a customer of Bob's since 1977 so I am a little prejudiced. In the 30 years he and Jeff have provided information for the average fan, which was not available anywhere. Please if someone compliments an advertiser, why would you bad mouth the advertiser.
************************

tHOSE TERMITE SERVICES have been available in many places before 1977 even.,,,, they are a just another detriment to the game . Again IF national turf is so good why don't they bet it and not sell it.??????????????

both are or have been media touts , press touts , book,essay writers .also in with the book MOB that plugs each others books,software ..they do it all.

if THAT ISN'T ENOUGH,SIEGEL then sells shares in horses ,while selling touts on other horses in the same race .... horseracing has no credability anymore.

Since little is being done for horseplayers or the DOPE issue ((not just steroids)) ... tell Selvin and Siegel we'lll see them breeders cup week with media cameras and attorneys .demanding blood samples of horse that even LOOKS SUSPICIOUS to the vet who will be with us .

[Turfday]

If we stunk all the time, you would have nothing to worry about, right? That would help a sharp handicapper like you. Why should you complain?

Wouldn't YOU be getting better prices on your winners, correct?

But then again, we've been around so long that, well maybe once in awhile we do something right to keep many of the same users we've had like Vic and a lot of others.

And thank you EZ for keeping this thread going.

[ezpace]

If we stunk all the time, you would have nothing to worry about, right? That would help a sharp handicapper like you. Why should you complain?

Wouldn't YOU be getting better prices on your winners, correct?

But then again, we've been around so long that, well maybe once in awhile we do something right to keep many of the same users we've had like Vic and a lot of others.

And thank you EZ for keeping this thread going.
********************
Again IF IF IF your so good(national turf) why would you sell it JUST BET IT?????

3rd time for the above question NO ANSWER.... and your last response made little sense if you can handicap ..your service is just another detriment to the game

[Tom]

"Hello Swine..."

Hehehe....that made my day, Bob! :ThmbUp:

[Turfday]

And who is to say we are NOT playing SOME of the races we like best?

Do you make your personal betting habits public? More power to you. Do you report your winnings to the IRS?

Per one of my above posts, there are a number of races we try to steer users away from. Does that count?

How do you suppose we've been in business since 1989 ? That's 19 years. And have users like Vic and many others who have been with us such a long time?

You should RELISH the fact that we are in business. What are we taking away from you? From the tone of your posts, you should be enjoying our success. If we're that bad, it makes the betting pools that much better for you, doesn't it?

[ezpace]

And who is to say we are NOT playing SOME of the races we like best?

Do you make your personal betting habits public? More power to you. Do you report your winnings to the IRS?

Per one of my above posts, there are a number of races we try to steer users away from. Does that count?

How do you suppose we've been in business since 1989 ? That's 19 years. And have users like Vic and many others who have been with us such a long time?

You should RELISH the fact that we are in business. What are we taking away from you? From the tone of your posts, you should be enjoying our success. If we're that bad, it makes the betting pools that much better for you, doesn't it?

*********************
Still now direct answer to the question .. butt i will say all you touts are

CONsistent when challenged on it.... why sell it ??..because your unprofitable yourselurves as handicappers that's why.. blinds squirrels /acorns ;)

[Turfday]

I really thought a simple thank you to "JoeLouis" who I have no idea who he is, would end it.

But your inane comments have apparently made this unwittingly a topic of interest on the board whereas I had absolutely no intention of continuing it.

I guess there are some people in this business that can't stand the success of others.

You probably secretly root against your friends if they are live in a Pick Four and you are not.

Me? I want everybody to be happy and be successful even if I can't. So far, in my many years in this business.....first as the creator of Handicapper's Report, then to National Turf and Turfday..........it's been a wonderful, great ride that continues today.

And answer this. Why are you "sour grapeing" when you, yourself, when you should be relishing the opportunity to play against any "service" horses? Why are many of your users so happy that they have kept us thriving and flourishing?

We don't make silly claims and don't try to beat anybody for anything. We just provide information. If people choose to pay for it (and not you), why does that bother you and not DELIGHT you if you are smarter than the rest and can bet into the same pools?

[ezpace]

from you if you wrote one.

You can assume many things about

me (not knowing me ) get off on non factual tangents

and still can;t answer a a direct question .

try a science fiction novel .. i'm done now to ..made my point.

btw touts vs. factual info .......a big difference...

[judd]

I have to plug National Turf I followed them last week and believe me it was the best week i have had in a long long time. I built up a payroll for del mar. TY Bob Selvin and Jeff S. and crew.:)
how do we know your not a plant ?? :confused:

[Turfday]

This was before the (8th) race on Wednesday.

TVG's Christina Olivares uses National Turf's workout report and was asked for her pick in the (8th) race filled with maiden 2-year-olds. She didn't hesitate for a second and gave full credit BEFORE the race to us and picked first-time starter Evita Argentina....because the report said she "can finish."

GREAT PICK Christina and thank you for crediting us. And this was right from today's report:

Evita Argentina won from behind and paid $40.80.

EVITA ARGENTINA Jun 19 SA 5 :59.4H M FT B-
Let run late, finishing out willingly in 36.0, 59.4. Tries hard.----------Grade; B-

EVITA ARGENTINA Jun 13 SA 6 1:14.3H M FT B-
Even keeled but solid while drawing away from the older White Angel (French) in 50.0, 114.1. Some late finish here.---------------Grade: B-

EVITA ARGENTINA Jun 1 SA 5 1:01.4HG M FT B- Not much early speed but did work with some late finish in 24.1, 48.2, 101.1.---------------Grade: B-

And for anyone interested in Thursday's HUGE $745,257 Pick 6 carryover, our daily workout report will be available tonight after 7 p.m. (Pacific) time at www.nationalturf.com.

[Imriledup]

This was before the (8th) race on Wednesday.

TVG's Christina Olivares uses National Turf's workout report and was asked for her pick in the (8th) race filled with maiden 2-year-olds. She didn't hesitate for a second and gave full credit BEFORE the race to us and picked first-time starter Evita Argentina....because the report said she "can finish."

GREAT PICK Christina and thank you for crediting us. And this was right from today's report:

Evita Argentina won from behind and paid $40.80.

EVITA ARGENTINA Jun 19 SA 5 :59.4H M FT B-
Let run late, finishing out willingly in 36.0, 59.4. Tries hard.----------Grade; B-

EVITA ARGENTINA Jun 13 SA 6 1:14.3H M FT B-
Even keeled but solid while drawing away from the older White Angel (French) in 50.0, 114.1. Some late finish here.---------------Grade: B-

EVITA ARGENTINA Jun 1 SA 5 1:01.4HG M FT B- Not much early speed but did work with some late finish in 24.1, 48.2, 101.1.---------------Grade: B-

And for anyone interested in Thursday's HUGE $745,257 Pick 6 carryover, our daily workout report will be available tonight after 7 p.m. (Pacific) time at www.nationalturf.com. (http://www.nationalturf.com.)

EZ is fairly abrasive and isn't shy at all. Still, i think he just wants to know why sell your information when you can just bet at the windows? Horse racing isn't like the stock market....this is a game when you DON'T want people on your horses, as opposed to the stock market where you want everyone buying your pick.

[cj's dad]

why sell the info just bet it.

If your site is recommending winners, then the posters are right. Just provide the info for bettors to digest and move on. The results will stand alone. Winners are predicted by the tout sheets entereing the track. Is your service a tout sheet?? If not, then why would you share your winners with us??

The more who bet your selections, the lower the odds. Whats the point, if you are not profiting from your service???

[ezpace]

If your site is recommending winners, then the posters are right. Just provide the info for bettors to digest and move on. The results will stand alone. Winners are predicted by the tout sheets entereing the track. Is your service a tout sheet?? If not, then why would you share your winners with us??

The more who bet your selections, the lower the odds. Whats the point, if you are not profiting from your service???

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

i DON[T have any part of a lousy tout service .

[PaceAdvantage]

...as opposed to the stock market where you want everyone buying your pick.One very important point....you want everyone buying your pick AFTER you have already bought your shares....a strategy at the heart of every penny stock pump & dump scheme (which is illegal, is it not?)

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry I've been away for a few days....and sorry this thread took a turn for the worse.

Authorized advertisers deserve a little more respect than what's been given in here by ezpace. AAs are paying for the privilege to promote their products here, unlike others who obviously employ plants to get some discussion going about their warez.

I have only heard good things about Bob and National Turf. They provide a lot of valuable information in their workout reports, and as evidenced by Olivares, their horses continue to PAY!

[ezpace]

those advertising dollars will be the judge..

[hashhouse]

Someone was nice enough to say thank you to someone who provided a service and then some people blast that service. Just because you think that you do not need help some people use these services with good results. I have been a customer of Bob's since 1977 so I am a little prejudiced. In the 30 years he and Jeff have provided information for the average fan, which was not available anywhere. Please if someone compliments an advertiser, why would you bad mouth the advertiser.

Well said, I could not have put it any better than what you did. Bob Selvin and Jeff provide inside information that I find very helpful keep it up guys. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

those advertising dollars will be the judge..Going by your philosophy, every financial advisor of any kind should be put out of a job...after all, if they were any good, they should simply work for themselves instead of offering advice to the less informed, right ez?

Perhaps there are many folks out there who want to benefit from the type of information National Turf and Bob put out there, but don't have the time or the inclination to do the work themselves, so they will pay someone to do it for them. If the guys at National Turf are already doing the work, why shouldn't they sell this information (if nobody wanted it, they'd be out of business)?

[Imriledup]

Sorry I've been away for a few days....and sorry this thread took a turn for the worse.

Authorized advertisers deserve a little more respect than what's been given in here by ezpace. AAs are paying for the privilege to promote their products here, unlike others who obviously employ plants to get some discussion going about their warez.

I have only heard good things about Bob and National Turf. They provide a lot of valuable information in their workout reports, and as evidenced by Olivares, their horses continue to PAY!

EZ got a little carried away. I think he asked a question that wasn't answered, so thats why he 'went off'.

[ddog]

Well, if you are going to expand it to financial advisors , I have to move over to ez side of the fence.

:D

However, Nat Turf are good guys here. :ThmbUp:

[ezpace]

//////TOTAL B.S. P.A. MORE than 4 handicappers there putting out 4 to 6 horses in the same race. in print,radio and t.v. TOUTS.. and a bunch of anecdotal stats.. ROFLMAO...

THUD!!!!

[PaceAdvantage]

//////TOTAL B.S. P.A. MORE than 4 handicappers there putting out 4 to 6 horses in the same race. in print,radio and t.v. TOUTS.. and a bunch of anecdotal stats.. ROFLMAO...

THUD!!!!In English this time, so that we may all enjoy it....

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, if you are going to expand it to financial advisors , I have to move over to ez side of the fence.Really. So, it is your contention that most if not all financial advisers are worth zero, especially to people WITH NO FINANCIAL SAVVY WHATSOEVER? I don't buy that for a second.

[raybo]

why sell the info just bet it.

I suppose you could say the same for the data providers, too. Bris and TSN and all the other data providers who do lots of work arriving at their proprietary figures shouldn't be selling them, right? They should just bet them.

What data do you buy?

[ElKabong]

While I have a strong distaste for "touts", the clocker service that NT provides is quite good. That's not touting, it's information that you pay for & have to put to good use.

Speaking of Christina O's call on Evita Argentina's win, she did say on TVG that she didn't make a bet of any kind on that race. I was watching at the time. She could have bet, but she didn't. She had the info, but didn't pull the trigger (and I have a lot of respect for her handicapping ability and knowledge of the circuit...she's very good).

Therein lies the deal....how you bet the info at hand.

[pktruckdriver]

Well let me say that when they , NT made the offer here on this board a few weeks ago, I took them up on it.


They actually did very well with what they provided me, it was me who miss used it , got busy and forgot to use it actually, and since they had no questions asked refund policy, they also gave me my money back, very nice of them.

Touts or not, they provide good info for the recreational and professional players both.

But why they would not come out and just answer your one and only questions was a little strange thou.

But I will use them again because of there honesty and good product, pure and simple.

[Imriledup]

Well let me say that when they , NT made the offer here on this board a few weeks ago, I took them up on it.


They actually did very well with what they provided me, it was me who miss used it , got busy and forgot to use it actually, and since they had no questions asked refund policy, they also gave me my money back, very nice of them.

Touts or not, they provide good info for the recreational and professional players both.

But why they would not come out and just answer your one and only questions was a little strange thou.

But I will use them again because of there honesty and good product, pure and simple.

Exactly. I didn't think the question was one that was difficult to answer or even out of line. Avoiding it just will keep this thread going like the energizer bunny.:jump:

[toetoe]

e-z there, big fellas. Okay, the premise of the thread is a tiny bit sappy, but undeserving of the vitriol.

Also, I vote for "who." So, the bell tolls for "who" twice, for "whom" once; so far, anyway.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

why sell the info just bet it.

That is the smartest, strongest point I've heard anyone make on this web site. Seriously.

You get an A+ for your most excellent assessment Ezspace.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

I'm an authorized advertiser on this board as there are many others who support this board and thus are able to promote our products or services.

And if you're wondering "Who"...then it's Mike, who runs Pace Advantage.

Thanks Turfday. I was indeed wonderin'. Now I know. Some things, one can only learn by inquiry.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=Turfday] Do you report your winnings to the IRS?

DR.SS > No cuss words allowed please...One more outburst like that and you'll be facing a reprimand buddy.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

how do we know your not a plant ?? :confused:

Or an egg? Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Sorry I've been away for a few days....and sorry this thread took a turn for the worse.

Authorized advertisers deserve a little more respect than what's been given in here by ezpace. AAs are paying for the privilege to promote their products here, unlike others who obviously employ plants to get some discussion going about their warez.

I have only heard good things about Bob and National Turf. They provide a lot of valuable information in their workout reports, and as evidenced by Olivares, their horses continue to PAY!

I disagree with the "advertisers should be kissed by all" concept. Controversy always breeds interest in the subject material. Conformity lacks draw and falls below enthusiasm.

Here's why...Proof positive of my point....

I had no clue who or what Turfday was and is, until I read this thread, and Ezspace's comments in particular.

Now, (thanks only to the controversy stirring my interest), I have logged on to the National Turf website and I have the website bookmarked.

It takes controversy to thrive. (Perfect example: Our nations two party system of government in which disagreement on issues leads to strength).

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

e-z there, big fellas. Okay, the premise of the thread is a tiny bit sappy, but undeserving of the vitriol.

Also, I vote for "who." So, the bell tolls for "who" twice, for "whom" once; so far, anyway.

Horton hears you loud and clear...

[ddog]

Really. So, it is your contention that most if not all financial advisers are worth zero, especially to people WITH NO FINANCIAL SAVVY WHATSOEVER? I don't buy that for a second.

Pretty much,if people don't take an active interest in their own outcomes then that's one of the best ways to the poor house there is.
Do you trust all your money to an advisor?
Would you recommend that your family members do it?


You are at that point completely putting your LIFE in the "advisor's" hands.

Horseplaying is or should be a different deal, nobody should have their life on the line in this "game".

Also, the NT DATA in the hands of "someone who knows NOTHING about this gane" will hurt them more than it could help.
Someone who knows nothing about the game would be unlikely to have the data anyway, I would guess.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Really. So, it is your contention that most if not all financial advisers are worth zero, especially to people WITH NO FINANCIAL SAVVY WHATSOEVER? I don't buy that for a second.

Information provided by services can be beneficial to a bankroll. Especially if you can attend the race live where you can somewhat verify the soundness of a horse and the strength of his competition with an eyeball of your own. I've made more than a couple of good bets on info provided by others.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=ddog]P
Do you trust all your money to an advisor?

Dr. SS > If we could rely on any one service "all the time", then we wouldn't need jobs. Neither would the advisors.

But, advisors can provide good info for which to be sifted through to find a good bet, just not every bet.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[pktruckdriver]

Let me say that today I used NT and got waxed really good.


I trusted them and lost today, well that's how it goes , right?


I feel foolish since I stood up for theem in this post, and somehow still do, they just had a bad day today.

31 bets and 3 hits , not too good, but then on Monday I could easily get 25 bets and 18 hits, well not me personally, as my luck seems only average, not above avg.

But as to the question that kept this going is , why share your info, if it is so good, as sharing it would only lower the odds, but selling it would make more profit than betting would. That is what I think anyway, as I have never really hit anything using a service, but if I had used it for many years, then eventually they must get it right once in awhile, right?

Just my thoughts.
unlucky again

[ddog]

[QUOTE=ddog]P
Do you trust all your money to an advisor?

Dr. SS > If we could rely on any one service "all the time", then we wouldn't need jobs. Neither would the advisors.

But, advisors can provide good info for which to be sifted through to find a good bet, just not every bet.

Dr. SwineSmeller

But, if one KNOWS NOTHING per PA's conjecture, then the sifting will make no difference outside of the luck of the draw, which is what someone going to ANY advisor faces if that person has no understanding of what they are being advised of.

IMO.

[ddog]

Pk, I do not know how you are using them, but if you are using the workout stuff, it will generally not help you much on any single day , it's too widly known(imo) and the UNPUBLISHED private clockers out there will beat you up.

You maybe able to isolate some plays from it over a long series of workouts by tracking all the works by barn/trainer and by auditing the reports themsleves to see how the comments match up to how the horses run.

The clockers are only human and can have bias toward certain type of works/barns.

I am not donwgrading the info , just that it still takes more work from that point, IMO.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=Dr.SwineSmeller]

But, if one KNOWS NOTHING per PA's conjecture, then the sifting will make no difference outside of the luck of the draw, which is what someone going to ANY advisor faces if that person has no understanding of what they are being advised of.

IMO.

When Randy Moss handicapped at Oaklawn Park up until the late 80's, I made lots and lots of good bets by only taking his Arkansas Democrat free picks to the track while paying zero attention to any other handicapping publications or talk.

It was a documented fact that Randy won at a 33% clip at Oaklawn, year after year. (And he placed with another 23% of those picks). 80% of Randy's picks were the indeed the public's top choice and went off as the post time favorite. But the trick was not to bet all of his picks. Not even 20% of them.

By just laying back, watching and waiting, not getting anxious (have a beer or two and buy our time), an experienced player could make money from playing on Randy's picks exclusively. Our advantage was that we knew Randy was going to give us the winner in one out of every three races.

But unlike Andrewfus Beyer, to Randy's credit, Randy never "guaranteed" any bet on a horse.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[PaceAdvantage]

I disagree with the "advertisers should be kissed by all" concept.I never said this, and in fact, if you do a search on some advertiser threads (YouBet for example) you will see that advertisers don't get kissed around here....

On the other hand, they shouldn't be disrespected just because they are advertisers here, which is what was happening in this thread, in my opinion.

[Turfday]

I have great respect for all four. And, as you know, Quinn, Davidowitz and Nunamaker are renowned authors as well.

Quinn sells his selections regularly on weekends on Trackmaster. So does Davidowitz. Nunamaker, who has been a respected poster on this board, sells his selections for many tracks every day on Trackmaster and his Southern California selections on my site. The Wizard is the handicapping maven at Bris and does a wonderful job analyzing the tracks he covers.

Are these guys touts as well and would you tell them to their face they are nothing more than "touts?"

Or is it simply possible that they are providing a service and information , of not only possible winners but also some statistics and angles, that some horseplayers find worth the money, but not all ?

[pktruckdriver]

Hey Bob


I can't speak for everyone, but I used your picks on Sunday and I lost almost all bets, but did get a 25.00 pick 3, but I am not upset with you, or your partners on the website with you, as I do not expect much from service's.

I used them when playing on wknds, looking for help with finding a horse to help fill out a pick3 or pick4, a horse that I might have overlooked, sometimes it works, but as the norm goes it does not work, so I try to use the local guys for the tracks that I play.

I honestly can not remember ever getting a service to provide me with anything to shout about, nope , as is the case, we get chalk or 2nd chalk, 6,7 out of 8 races, so it is what it is, a lazy man's cheat sheet.

To be honest with you, I'd love to do the business that "The Guys" you mentioned above, yourself included do each year with their service's .

Heck All I need is a catchy name and website, then network a little, and who knows, maybe I could be the next Wizard, and then I'd never have to play the ponies any more, just pick and post them for all to buy.


Bottomline is the " cheat sheets" sometimes help me, most times not, but until I get more into my software program/hard core Hcapping, I will continue to use the cheat sheets, to help me on the wknds to snag a big one.

And by the way great customer service this wknd Bob, with my printing issue, thank you.

Still Looking:bang:

[Tom]

You judge the service on one day?
Quit looking.....what you want isn't out there.

[pktruckdriver]

Tom

You judge the service on one day?
Quit looking.....what you want isn't out there.


You need to read my post again, as I did not judge one way or another, I stated this Sunday was a bust, as it was, but I also said too, what great Customer Service was provided too, and that future use was very possible.

Please read before jumping to conclusions, thank you.

[Imriledup]

I have great respect for all four. And, as you know, Quinn, Davidowitz and Nunamaker are renowned authors as well.

Quinn sells his selections regularly on weekends on Trackmaster. So does Davidowitz. Nunamaker, who has been a respected poster on this board, sells his selections for many tracks every day on Trackmaster and his Southern California selections on my site. The Wizard is the handicapping maven at Bris and does a wonderful job analyzing the tracks he covers.

Are these guys touts as well and would you tell them to their face they are nothing more than "touts?"

Or is it simply possible that they are providing a service and information , of not only possible winners but also some statistics and angles, that some horseplayers find worth the money, but not all ?

Is there a specific reason why you won't answer the question as to why sell your info if its so good and not take that info and crush the windows? There are MASSIVE pick 6 and pick 4 pools on a daily basis in So Cal, you can make way more money betting on your own info rather than putting it into the hands or large bettors, can't you?

There is a perception that people who sell picks or information do so because they can't, for whatever reason, take their own great info and turn it into cash at the windows themselves. Why don't you explain to everyone here that this perception is not true and explain why its not true.

From your post, you seem to think that being a 'tout' is a bad thing. Please finish the answer to this question:

"the reason i sell selections and information as opposed to just taking this info and using it for my own benefit to crush the large so cal pick 6 and pick 4 pools is because........xyz.."

Lets hear what XYZ is.

I apologize if this question is out of line, and if you don't want to answer it, thats perfectly fine, just say i'd rather not answer that question and i won't bring it up again.

[Turfday]

I don't play every single race nor do any of the other handicappers who make their selections available such as Quinn, Davidowitz or the others. Nor do you. But I do play when I feel the situation (price) is right. I make a fair odds line and that's part of my seminar/analysis.

And I was playing for quite awhile on E-horse X but now the pools are very small. I'm part of two Pick 6 groups.

I'm offering information and MANY times the information consists of very helpful stats and angles and KNOCKS on certain horses. Does that count? It's a seminar and analysis and I often suggest to PASS races.

The day in question (Sunday) PKtruckerdriver mentions, well, at the very top of the analysis for the day, this was my comment on the card:

"With the exception of a couple of races, the rest of them look like they belong on a bad weekday card. Only 72 horses entered today for the nine races on a weekend."

By the way, the previous five days of my selections and analysis are posted regularly as other the other guys.

But no one has answered the question if Quinn, Davidowitz, the Wizard and respected PA poster Mike Nunamaker fall into the same category.

There were several posters in this thread who obviously are very happy with the information we provide and many are skeptical.

One guy starts a thread to give a short, unsolicited thank you. I come on and thank him for the kind words.

It turns into a major thread! This is most "notoriety" National Turf has received since I became a paid advertisor. Thanks to all for participating in this thread. I appreciate all of your comments and would like to hear more and also get your opinions if others in my business such as the well respected Quinn, Davidowitz and the Wizard are all "touts" and in the same category.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

I never said this, and in fact, if you do a search on some advertiser threads (YouBet for example) you will see that advertisers don't get kissed around here....

On the other hand, they shouldn't be disrespected just because they are advertisers here, which is what was happening in this thread, in my opinion.

Honestly, I say more power to anyone that can mange a living as a professional handicapper. Number one though, you have to have thick skin because you are gonna take some hits. Number two, you have to be consistently producing winners at over a 30% clip (preferrably 33% - 34%) or you will flop. That means picking a lot of favorites, plain and simple.

There is one major factor that a person must always consider when relying on a hancapper, that is the fact that absolutely zero % of them can show you a profit if you were to bet straight up 2$ on all of his picks when picking all races. The very best handicappers can only bring about an 85 cent return on a dollar when picking all races on a program for an entire meet.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[WinterTriangle]

I'm offering information and MANY times the information consists of very helpful stats and angles and KNOCKS on certain horses. Does that count? It's a seminar and analysis and I often suggest to PASS races.

I fail to see the conflict between having know-how and wanting to share it and/or advise others for profit.

Stephen King is a successful writer, yet offers his services as a writing coach.

Everyone sees things a different way. Utilizing various resources is how most of the great advances in the world have taken place. :)

I can fully appreciate "an additional perspective", whether it be handicapping horses or practicing any endeavor.

[Tom]

Tom




You need to read my post again, as I did not judge one way or another, I stated this Sunday was a bust, as it was, but I also said too, what great Customer Service was provided too, and that future use was very possible.

Please read before jumping to conclusions, thank you.

I can't speak for everyone, but I used your picks on Sunday and I lost almost all bets, but did get a 25.00 pick 3, but I am not upset with you, or your partners on the website with you, as I do not expect much from service's.

I read it.....it sounded like you were using Sunday to confirm your opinion.
If you don't expect much, why do you buy?

[PaceAdvantage]

You need to read my post again, as I did not judge one way or another...Maybe, maybe not, but I found it quite interesting that you felt the need to talk about your NT experience on yet another recent thread....

It must have left quite the impact on your brain for you to be carrying around that baggage for days now...

Are people under the false impression that NT are just some "picks" provider?

[pktruckdriver]

HUH??

Maybe, maybe not, but I found it quite interesting that you felt the need to talk about your NT experience on yet another recent thread....

I have not bashed anyone here, did I, NT was prompt and customer service was tops, really it was. Can I help it if I had a bad day and state it here, we all have bad days, well most of us do, and in this,"horse play", it really only takes 1 good day to substain you for a long time. Is that correct?


Of course it is, and using the local track talent to assist with your picks, sometimes works, and other times , does not, Sunday was a does not, but next week may be a great wknd, but I will be at Arlington I think, that's Chicago, right?

So I will look to the local guys at Chicago for some tips, especially if I'm not to sure after doing my h-capping, which is most of the time, where is this wrong, stupid maybe, spending money on picks/tips or whatever, maybe, so what, it does pay off once in awhile and we all go home happy. But 65% we lose and we don't like it, but know it is part of the game, and yes it hurts a little more when you used a service to help you and you still lose.

And by the way Bossman that was not NT, it was someone else, who I would love to mention, but will refrain.

[PaceAdvantage]

And by the way Bossman that was not NT, it was someone else, who I would love to mention, but will refrain.Somebody here is confused...here's the link...are you not talking about NT here?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48320#post549301

[pic6vic]

Let me say that today I used NT and got waxed really good.


I trusted them and lost today, well that's how it goes , right?


I feel foolish since I stood up for theem in this post, and somehow still do, they just had a bad day today.

31 bets and 3 hits , not too good, but then on Monday I could easily get 25 bets and 18 hits, well not me personally, as my luck seems only average, not above avg.

But as to the question that kept this going is , why share your info, if it is so good, as sharing it would only lower the odds, but selling it would make more profit than betting would. That is what I think anyway, as I have never really hit anything using a service, but if I had used it for many years, then eventually they must get it right once in awhile, right?

Just my thoughts.
unlucky again

Hope you subscribed today. The report had STRONG mentions on the winner in the first leg of the pic6 and the last leg. The other 4 were won by 3 favs and a second choice. Paid $12,800.

[Turfday]

GREAT JOB by National Turf's clocker Andy Harrington for the huge Pick 6 carryover sequence on Saturday.

Users got BIG workout report pushes on (6th) first-time starter HANNAH'S CLASSY BOY (grade B+, "finished fast moving smart with purpose") at $10.00, TIZSWEETDREAMS (grade B, "still sharp as ever") at $6.00 and HOPEHOPEHOPE (grade B+, "clearly tighter, smart looking, quite nice) at $21.80!

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU THAT RELY ON ANDY's HARD WORK and HONEST, DILIGENT EFFORT.

[pktruckdriver]

See that is exactly why I use them, they will help you in your handicapping and it seems today was one of those days.


I will continue to use NT in the future at least until I get up and running on my own, using my methods of handicapping.

I am getting things that will better help me and their info does help, and then some days it does not, last Sunday was a does not day, it happens.

I am not and will not say anything bad about NT, and I take offense to those who keep twisting things up to look that way, leave it alone, and move on, ok.

NT does provide good info, just not everyday, thats all, but who does, not me, do you, of course not.

[ManeMediaMogul]

GREAT JOB by National Turf's clocker Andy Harrington for the huge Pick 6 carryover sequence on Saturday.

Users got BIG workout report pushes on (6th) first-time starter HANNAH'S CLASSY BOY (grade B+, "finished fast moving smart with purpose") at $10.00, TIZSWEETDREAMS (grade B, "still sharp as ever") at $6.00 and HOPEHOPEHOPE (grade B+, "clearly tighter, smart looking, quite nice) at $21.80!

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU THAT RELY ON ANDY's HARD WORK and HONEST, DILIGENT EFFORT.

The clocker's reports keyed a nifty pick four for me with singleton HOPEHOPEHOPE and I would have had six with my single of HANNAH'S
CLASSY BOY if Garrett Gomez hadn't been posing for the picture on VENTURA.

[rrbauer]

The clocker's reports keyed a nifty pick four for me with singleton HOPEHOPEHOPE and I would have had six with my single of HANNAH'S
CLASSY BOY if Garrett Gomez hadn't been posing for the picture on VENTURA.

Gomez definitely fell asleep at the switch.

[pic6vic]

Just to chime in. We had the pick 6 because of the works. I just want to say for all the nay sayers. I have been a customer of Bob's workouts either with Handicappers report or national turf since 1986. I can't remember the exact year. That is a long time and I would not play without them. Japhet Ward was the clocker for handicappers report and now Andy Harrington. They both have done a great job. Just a little tidbit going back quite a few years. I was working and couldn't get to the track, so I sent a friend with a few pick 3's. In those days the pic 3's were $3. I singled the first race 10-1 morning line because of the works. he wins and pays $73.00. I wound up hitting a $5200 pic 3 twice plus win money. I do not get paid for my endorsements and i have never received anything for free. I pay for the service.

I just can't believe that anyone could say anything negative about those of us who subscribe.

Good luck to all

[Imriledup]

[QUOTE=pic6vic]Just to chime in. We had the pick 6 because of the works. I just want to say for all the nay sayers. I have been a customer of Bob's workouts either with Handicappers report or national turf since 1986. I can't remember the exact year. That is a long time and I would not play without them. Japhet Ward was the clocker for handicappers report and now Andy Harrington. They both have done a great job. Just a little tidbit going back quite a few years. I was working and couldn't get to the track, so I sent a friend with a few pick 3's. In those days the pic 3's were $3. I singled the first race 10-1 morning line because of the works. he wins and pays $73.00. I wound up hitting a $5200 pic 3 twice plus win money. I do not get paid for my endorsements and i have never received anything for free. I pay for the service.

I just can't believe that anyone could say anything negative about those of us who subscribe.

So, their report has never talked you off a horse with a bad workout comment that ended up winning?

[Donnie]

Bob--
Nice job by Andy!
I am considering a 1 year subscription. Quick question---
what format are these in? pdf's? html? Can a person acquire your workout report in a format that could be imported into Access. These appear to be a great compliment to something I already have set up.
Thanks for any insight!
-Donnie

[Turfday]

I'm not that computer savvy to know if they can be imported into a database, but there are samples posted at our website at www.nationalturf.com. But that's the format they come in and how it looks.

Click Sample Workout Report (which changes weekly) in column on leftside.

P.S.- First-time starter Jinx wins the (1st) at Hollywood Park on Sunday and pays $5.80. I made her an early Pick 4 single because:


JINX Jun 22 HOL 5 1:00.2H M FT B
Went breezy home while going solo then galloped well in 48.3, 101.0 out on the turn well in 114.0 out again in 127.1.---------------Grade: B

JINX Jun 16 HOL 5 1:00.3H M FT B+
Really nice with Ima Offended (100.3) working under double wraps in 48.1, 100.3 out in 113.0. Top notch for the level.---------------Grade: B+

[pktruckdriver]

As I stated earlier that I would use NT again, well I did today.


Now in just the 1st 2 races I've shown a huge profit, and have all other bets made for free, so I sit and watch now, already a nice winner.

I'm live in 1st pick4 for the 3 or 6 , all profit.

Thats why I use these guys, even if you get a previous bad day, never give up on them, they are good, as I stated before.


Thanks NT

[judd]

siegels picks for fri july 4th holly & belmont was not too impressive :ThmbDown:

[Pace Cap'n]

siegels picks for fri july 4th holly & belmont was not too impressive :ThmbDown:

Where's yours?

[judd]

i dont charge a fee for losers

[pktruckdriver]

Yes thats right over 500.00 profit and not even half-way thru the day, with all bets made already. :jump: :jump: :jump:


Thanks
Bob and Jeff

[rrbauer]

GREAT JOB by National Turf's clocker Andy Harrington for the huge Pick 6 carryover sequence on Saturday.

Users got BIG workout report pushes on (6th) first-time starter HANNAH'S CLASSY BOY (grade B+, "finished fast moving smart with purpose") at $10.00, TIZSWEETDREAMS (grade B, "still sharp as ever") at $6.00 and HOPEHOPEHOPE (grade B+, "clearly tighter, smart looking, quite nice) at $21.80!

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU THAT RELY ON ANDY's HARD WORK and HONEST, DILIGENT EFFORT.

It looks like your workout reports were the key to a successful P6 play on Saturday. With that in mind, why not post a link to the full report so that everyone can see all of the other workouts and their grades in relation to Saturday's card; or, just post the report here. Lot's of people appear to be interested so it's a perfect opportunity to show your stuff. In the spirit of full disclosure, of course.

[Donnie]

siegels picks for fri july 4th holly & belmont was not too impressive

Maybe I am wrong here, but I don't think these are picks are they? What I am looking for is a piece of handicapping info I can't physically do....be at the track every morning observing workouts.

Also, just because a horse has a bad work, is he a throwout....? Personal judgement.

[Donnie]

I just double checked the site. Guess you can purchae picks as well. My interest lies in the clocker reports.

[ezpace]

the only great consistent workout report is done by Bruno DeJulio ...period.

[toetoe]

This has become excruciating reading. NT Guy is guilty of no gasconade of his own, so let his votaries and acolytes effuse their felicitations. Where's the harm ? As for NT Guy himself, he must be feeling like a pinata right about now, and that hardly seems fair.

[pktruckdriver]

Hey Donnie


Yes the clocker reports are at Turfday.com, I on the other hand use their pick along with mine, and as with all
h-capping, some days are good and other are not.

But clocker reports are always worth their weight in gold when you have great people doing them for you.

Good Luck
Patrick

PS I jinxed myself from my earlier post, still 500 is a great day for me, any time.

[pktruckdriver]

ToeToe

Please forgive me , but what did you say?


This has become excruciating reading. NT Guy is guilty of no gasconade of his own, so let his votaries and acolytes effuse their felicitations. Where's the harm ? As for NT Guy himself, he must be feeling like a pinata right about now, and that hardly seems fair.

[Turfday]

The workout report is only available on nationalturf.com, not on turfday.com.

I attempted to put up the entire file, but could not due to the size of the file.

There will be a SPECIAL OFFER for the entire Del Mar meet to Pace Advantage board members coming in the next couple of days.

Today, there were strong workout comments on winners Jinx, Vixana, Ransom Captive and Hiatus with two races to go as I am posting this.

Every Monday, the full, complete SUNDAY report is posted as a FULL, complete sample at our website of www.nationalturf.com.

Last Sunday's sample is posted up there right now. Today's will be posted sometime tomorrow.

My simple thank you to a poster has turned into FAR AND AWAY the best publicity we have ever received on this board. I thank all of you for partcipating in this thread and can't fathom the response it has received. I am actually stunned that this thread has taken a life of its own because as you can see at the very top, that was not at all my intention.

[toetoe]

'truck,

Yer askin' ME ? :D

[Sailwolf]

the only great consistent workout report is done by Bruno DeJulio ...period.

Bruno is good !!!!!!!!!

[George Sands]

Turfday,

I use the workout report regularly and I think it's excellent. But I have a serious question. Why did Andy stop writing "blah" so often in his comments? That used to be one of his favorite workout comments. He would write "blah" frequently, and it got his point across well. Then poster Richard Bauer made fun of "blah," and from that point forward it has been extremely hard to find a "blah" in the report. Did you tell Andy to stop writing "blah" because of Richard Bauer's post? If so, I want "blah" back. And I'm a customer. I don't think Richard Bauer is.

[Donnie]

Funny thing George--
Ken (Massa) used to do a pick sheet for the old Stardust. He used to use a term like "No Chance Today!!" for horses that his line told him had vitually no chance! He stopped using that term and the customers went up in arms about it, cause when they did win, they paid monster mutuels!! There were people who looked for that terminology and bet because of it!!

[joelouis]

the only great consistent workout report is done by Bruno DeJulio ...period.

I have to agree with you on that, Bruno is the MAN when it comes to workout reports.:)