Can women compete?

[superfecta]

This question came to me as I was hearing some debates on the man vs woman thing in sports.What sport can women and men compete at a similar level?Knuckleheads on the radio were saying stuff like golf(but Monica shouldn't compete in the Colonial),maybe basketball,or auto racing(is that a sport?)or maybe bowling(that is not a sport,its something you do to keep your non-drinking hand busy):)
HELLLOOO,how about a sport where they already compete?I would say for their numbers,more women are better at jockeys than the men.Maybe because they are predujuiced against,it weeds out the weak ones pretty quick,thats why the few who still ride are real good.Any thoughts?

[so.cal.fan]

There is going to be a charity basketball game tonight near my home between the S.A. jockeys and the 6th grade students from a local school.
It is held every year, I've never been, so I am finally going.
They say they are lots of fun and very competitive.
Kent D. and Julie K are both going to play.......now, Kent considers himself an excellent basketball player....he takes these games very seriously and really tries to win........Julie is quite an athlete in her own right, so it will be fun to see them compete.
Now, in the past, boys have always competed against the jocks, but perhaps we'll see a few girls?
I don't think women are as good of jockeys as men, Julie Krone is an exception.

[Observer]

Originally posted by superfecta
Any thoughts?

Let me start off by asking .. are you sure you want to open this can of worms??

I absolutely think women can compete in this game, if given the same chance as riders of equal ability. Making it in this game is about getting breaks and being given chances, whether a person is male or female .. but I do feel that women have more to overcome .. it's just more comfortable to have a man as a jockey than a woman .. kinda like you want a man fixing the engine of your car. Heck, Michael Tabor refused to allow Donna Barton to ride in the Kentucky Derby (Honour and Glory, I think) because he wanted a man .. and Donna had been prominent with the Lukas outfit at the time.

Its interesting that with young girls .. so many of them love horses .. and so many girls take riding lessons .. yet at the racetrack, you scratch your head wondering where they are.

Being a rider is not all about brute strength .. it's about finesse and patience too. And of course .. in being a jockey, it's a good idea to be fearless .. and most people associate men with being risk-takers .. as many would say, "women just don't have the stones."

It's funny (kinda sad), how some trainers will say they like having women working in their barns, because they find women to be more patient and kind with the horses. Yet when it comes to running the races, it’s a different story. Hmm .. did anyone ever stop to think that if bullying a horse doesn't work in the barn, maybe it doesn't work on the track, either??

There are people for every job, no doubt. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to generalize any group as being better suited to a particular task .. everyone should be given the same chance as any other person with the same ability .. that would happen in a perfect world, which this is not.

[dav4463]

Helton, Panas, Garner at SH are strong women jockeys. Rita Helton is one of my favorite jockeys. She wins with a lot of longshots that aren't the best in the race on paper. So she must have some talent there somewhere..

[Tom]

Iam all for women against men (Heh Heh Heh, if ya know what I mean...you knew THAT was coming.)

If Survivor is any barometer, women an compete - they have won 4 of 5 challenges so far.
As for racing, I think women can ride ok if they get the mounts - but theydon't get them like the men do. I think the perception is that the men are stronger and can "handle" the horse better. BS.
Just how much control does either sex have over a huge horse running full speed?

[sq764]

Here is my take on the subject..

At Sam Houston, I have NO problems betting on the female jockeys mentioned, as they are all solid. BUT, beyond Julie Krone, I typically would not bet a female jockey.

Whether this is perceived as sexist or whatever, the bottom line is that its my wager and I should bet who I feel is best. If someone doesn't have confidence in a female jockeys, or female jockeys in general, there is nothing wrong with that.

[GameTheory]

I like to see a woman on my horse -- they add value because they are underbet. I think the women jockeys competing today are all perfectly competent -- I automatically consider them to have higher w% than given because they don't get the mounts. In fact, given the same opportunities as the men, I think they'd emerge at least equal if not better. I think this has something to do with what was mentioned earlier about the all "horse crazy" little girls -- it really is a largely untapped talent pool.

[syyamo]

Don't forget the other side of this game where there are some excellent women - the trainers. Jenine Sahadi came to the front a few years ago; look at what Kathleen O'Connell is doing now - just won 4 races in a single day at Tampa - first time anyone has ever done that. Plus she has that excellent filly Ivanvinalot in her barn.

I agree with Game Theory: there are some nice prices to be found following the ladies. One of my favorite angles features a certain female trainer who calls on a specific female rider when the horse is ready. Some times at a nice price.

[Observer]

Don't forget Laura de Seroux, who trained Azeri to a Horse of the Year campaign!
:D :) :D

Originally posted by sq764
...the bottom line is that its my wager and I should bet who I feel is best. If someone doesn't have confidence in a female jockeys, or female jockeys in general, there is nothing wrong with that.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, and yes, it is your wagering dollars .. but to hold a person's gender against them when all other factors are equal just doesn't sit well with me .. but that's just me.
:rolleyes:

[superfecta]

Was the fact that we do have a sport that has men and women competing on the same footing.Why doesn't the rest of the sports fans realize this ?Women may be viewed as not as good(which I don't see,The women who do compete are good,it just the predjudice of trainers,owners and bettors that gives the idea they are not,Otherwise they would not be allowed to race with the men)but they do not recieve any weight breaks or head starts in order to compete.

[sq764]

Observer, let's say that every time I bet Chavez, I get a horrible ride and never make money with him. If I bet Joe Bravo over Jorge Chavez, does this mean that I hold it against Chavez that he is a foreign-born jock??

[so.cal.fan]

Women trainers are very good for the most part.
The one's I know are honest, hard working and very knowledgable about horses.
I think we will start to see more and more success stories with women trainers.

[Derek2U]

Diane Nelson in NY can outbreak Chucky Lopez if she's on a
speedster. In fact, she's mostly dangerous on just that kinda
horse. Jennifer Pedersen as a trainer's very good ... the problem
is there aren't very many women we see ... so you have a very
small sample size. I wonder if there are many women grooms,
blacksmiths, asst trainers etc etc. Maybe its being Moms that
make it unlikely for women to stay in racing all that long.

[Tom]

Male and female jocks RIDE against each other.
The horses do the COMPETING. Anyone ever discard a horse in race because it was a filly running against the males?

[sq764]

Tom, would you ever vote for a female president??

[David McKenzie]

Originally posted by Derek2U
Diane Nelson in NY can outbreak Chucky Lopez if she's on a
speedster.

She can also outswim them. Remember when she won the Jockey's swimming race in CA?

And not to be sexist, but she sure looked good in a speedo. ;)

[Tom]

Originally posted by sq764
Tom, would you ever vote for a female president??

Jeez, I dunno....I have a hard enough time finding a male I think is qualified <G>
I guess I would vote for a woman, or anyone who I thought had the same values I think are important and was running with the idea of serving the country and not just the women's country.

[Derek2U]

Not until I saw a babe as VP first.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Derek2U
Not until I saw a babe as VP first.

A vice babe???
Hmmmmm?

[sq764]

Well, with my wife being a woman too, I wouldn't vote for one. All it would take is her being in a bad mood and her seeing that I peed on the seat again, and BAM, some small carribean island would be no more..

[Observer]

Originally posted by sq764
Observer, let's say that every time I bet Chavez, I get a horrible ride and never make money with him. If I bet Joe Bravo over Jorge Chavez, does this mean that I hold it against Chavez that he is a foreign-born jock??

To have a grudge against a rider for ability reasons is one thing .. but to have something against a whole group based soley on something other than ability is wrong ... that was my point based on what you had said with regard to female jockeys:

Originally posted by sq764
If someone doesn't have confidence in a female jockeys, or female jockeys in general, there is nothing wrong with that.

Obviously there are riders more talented than others ... and obviously sometimes it just seems like you can't connect with certain riders when you need them .. but to be biased against a whole group, in this case because they are female, just isn't right. But, hey, everyone's entitled to their thoughts and beliefs. I just think the gender excuse is lame.

[Observer]

The Racing Form dated Sunday, March 2 had an interesting Letter to the Editor titled "Eclipse story confirms racing as men's club" .. which was written by Billy Reed, who "is a former president of the National Turf Writers Association" according to the note at the end of the letter.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Observer
To have a grudge against a rider for ability reasons is one thing .. but to have something against a whole group based soley on something other than ability is wrong ... that was my point based on what you had said with regard to female jockeys:



Obviously there are riders more talented than others ... and obviously sometimes it just seems like you can't connect with certain riders when you need them .. but to be biased against a whole group, in this case because they are female, just isn't right. But, hey, everyone's entitled to their thoughts and beliefs. I just think the gender excuse is lame.

There is no right or wrong here-only correct or incorrect. If you refure to bet female jockeys and they win, then your pay for your discrimination. If you win, then how can you be "wrong?"

[Observer]

Say it however you want .. right/wrong, correct/incorrect .. I just don't agree with prejudices that are not based on ability/inability. But being a woman, what do I know??

:rolleyes:

[cj]

The best men in any sport are always better than the best women. I don't know why, you'd have to ask the creator why things are that way. Does this mean women aren't incredible athletes? Of course not.

As far as racing, I would never hesitate to bet a jockey because she's a woman, only because the jock stinks, be it man or woman.

CJ

[kenwoodall]

Seriously, i think women are better at sports thar require more flexibility and less strength; more style than speed or distance. some women in some sports have more endurance.

[PaceAdvantage]

CJ,

I think racing is the one sport where that may not be true. I think a woman could EASILY become the best jockey EVER, if given the same chances as the BEST male jock. We all know that 90% of the trainers out there are men. And we all know a lot of these men (and a lot of their MALE OWNERS) will REFUSE to ride a female jockey just because they have the perception that a male jockey would be better, for a myriad of reasons.....most of them untrue given equal riding abilities.

Yes, you need physical strength to ride, but not to the extent where you would need physical strength to be a center in the NFL, or a defenseman in the NHL. Racing is really the one sport where men and women CAN compete on an absolutely level playing field, but CAN'T because of the inherent biases among male trainers who tend to hold all the cards with their choicest of mounts....

As in almost all walks of life, female jockeys start out with a big-time disadvantage that male jockeys never have to consider.

Make sense??

==PA

[cj]

PA,

Makes perfect sense. I would actually love to see a woman be the top rider, maybe bring some more fans, especially female, to the game.

CJ

[sq764]

"Makes perfect sense. I would actually love to see a woman be the top rider, maybe bring some more fans, especially female, to the game."


And if she was smoking, it would bring even more men to the game...

[Figman]

In our racetrack world there are likely many women like the one depicted in this story. Unfortunately, they are not being guided by Hall of Fame connections like H.Allen Jerkens, a trainer held in the highest esteem by 99% of the people on the NYRA backstretch.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/story/63792p-59460c.html

[Tom]

So where are the women trainers and owners?
CASH is all you need to buy a horse. Maybe if they want the opportunity they go out and TAKE it instead of waiting for it ot offered to them. don't forget, man and women started out on the same level. The fact that men now dominate everything should tell you something. They were together before there ever was any opportunites - guess who made opportunity?
(OK, I'll duck now... I can hear the missles coming in<G>)

[Observer]

Originally posted by Figman
In our racetrack world there are likely many women like the one depicted in this story. Unfortunately, they are not being guided by Hall of Fame connections like H.Allen Jerkens, a trainer held in the highest esteem by 99% of the people on the NYRA backstretch.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/story/63792p-59460c.html

Cool story .. thanks for sharing it Figman!

[Observer]

Originally posted by Tom
So where are the women trainers and owners?



Going unrecognized, that's where.

Remember Francis Genter .. the famous clip of Carl Nafzger telling her she was going to win the Derby with her Unbridled??

Laura de Seroux .. did anyone make a big deal that she was the first women ever to train a Horse of the Year .. and that being only the third female horse to earn the title .. truly an accomplishment.

Penny Chenery .. she only owned one of the greatest horses to ever set foot on the race track .. maybe you've heard of him .. Secretariat

Cecilia Straub-Rubens ... owner/breeder had Tiznow

Virginia Kraft Payson .. very prominent owner/breeder .. her best, most current runners .. Vindication and Farda Amiga.

Madeleine Paulson (yes, she does have her own horses)
Jenny Craig
Jenine Sahadi
Linda Rice
Nancy Alberts, just had Magic Weisner
Janet Elliot, steeplechase trainer, but darn good
Sanna Nielsen, another steeplechase trainer .. one who is a Saratoga force

One of my favorite trainers who is still flying under the radar is Lisa Lewis.

And you did have Leah Gyarmarti and Diane Nelson doing some wonderful things when Leah first started training .. they were really making a dent together as a strong trainer/jockey combination.

[Tom]

Then how come there aren't ample opportunities for female jockeys to get good mounts, all them dang women trainers out there?

(Observer...KIDDING! Actually, I have always been a supporter of female riders-some of my best hits came under Violet "Pinky")Smith, Mo McKeever, Glenda McKeever, Edith Hinsley, Julie Krone,
Mary Bacon....I think women have a rapport with the horse, something in their hands maybe? Like "Shoe?" Whatever, if I were a horse owner, the second thing Iwould do is look for a girl jockey. the first thing is get my head examined.)