IEAH going med-free...

[NY BRED]

Incredible story on this website from Blood Horse regarding the
statement issued by Michael Ivarrone that all of this barn's horses
will only run on Lasix.

Challenges are offered to the competition to meet this new philosophy,
and hopefully this game can back to a level playing field,

[onefast99]

I guess he wants to be invited to the congressional hearings, maybe he will be the new Roger Clemmens of horse racing!

[garyoz]

Front page of Monday's Sports Section in the NY Times Print edition. Here's the link (requires registration) http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/sports/othersports/23racing.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

Given the principal's record for integrity in the financial industry makes you wonder about this claim. What would Dutow's win percentage be without PEDs? That is PEDs plural....

[Mag]

...except for Lasix of course, and guess who insisted on that one?

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/45841.htm

[David-LV]

Let's hope that other owners follow in Mike Iavarone footsteps.

Finally, a step in the right direction.

_____
David

[DJofSD]

Med-free.

Ya, sure.

As a start, post all the vet bills both before and after. Even then, I won't believe it.

We're being scammed boys and girls.

[DeanT]

Question: Is this not smoke and mirrors?

What would he be using on race day other than lasix anyway, that is not banned, and is testable?

[joanied]

Hey, this is a great big step in the right direction...geeze guys, let's not be so doubtful... he said a huge mouthful here, and I beleive it...
and don't think less of
Dutrow for wanting to keep the Lasix...maybe one day we'll breed horses that don't bleed, but meantime, I see no harm in giving the Lasix where it's Ok to do so.
This can't be anything but good.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[sandspur]

Yeah DJ:

I've got a big bridge for sell.

[ceejay]

As a regular Lasix user myself, I will assure you that it is a med.

[joanied]

As a regular Lasix user myself, I will assure you that it is a med.

DUH..of course it's a med...guess letting a horse run bleeding is Ok then?
Every trainer that has bleeders will want to keep Lasix...until we start breeding horses that don't bleed...and don't say that the trainers should then send a bleeding horse to the farm or something...we'd have about 75% less horses!!

[joanied]

Yeah DJ:

I've got a big bridge for sell.

Fine.... I choose to beleive them...be pretty damned hard to say this and continue using drugs since now the entire race community will be watching them.

[CyberBet]

Most all substances will be illegal by this time next year anyway. No news here. They are just grabbing the spotlight while they can. Nothing wrong with that but take it for what it is worth.

[the little guy]

The drug problem in horse racing is undetectable designer drugs and all the rest of this talk is just a smokescreen. In fact, banning current medications would just give the real cheaters an even bigger edge.

Steroids? Come one. Yes, horse racing should have dealt with their abuse in the 80s, and surely some people abuse them, but they also have legitimate uses. The only reason steroids are getting all this attention is because they have become a catch word for sports, mostly because of baseball, and the general, and uninformed, public think they mean " performance enhancer. "

Unless the real problem is dealt with then the situation will not get better in any meaningful way.

[GameTheory]

So the consensus is that this big-time owner announcing his horses will all run med-free (and is willing to prove it and pay for proving it) is a bad thing? If he had come out and said that he's going to be using more drugs would you all be praising him?

No wonder this sport has so many problems...

[JBmadera]

Fine.... I choose to beleive them...be pretty damned hard to say this and continue using drugs since now the entire race community will be watching them.

when this type of thing happens in other sports it sometimes means that a new designer drug has been developed which no test has been created (remember the Clear?). so folks brag about being drug free when in fact they are only free from drugs which tests have not been developed and administered. it's probably not the case here but......?

jb

[slewis]

The drug problem in horse racing is undetectable designer drugs and all the rest of this talk is just a smokescreen. In fact, banning current medications would just give the real cheaters an even bigger edge.

Steroids? Come one. Yes, horse racing should have dealt with their abuse in the 80s, and surely some people abuse them, but they also have legitimate uses. The only reason steroids are getting all this attention is because they have become a catch word for sports, mostly because of baseball, and the general, and uninformed, public think they mean " performance enhancer. "

Unless the real problem is dealt with then the situation will not get better in any meaningful way.

You are 100% absolutely correct. The steroid anouncement is a smokescreen.
I've stated on this forum how Dutrow is NOT a big user/believer in steroids and his steroid program is not aggressive nor designed to build muscle mass.
(Go to the paddock and look at Asmussen's horses physically compared to Dutrows)
Dutrow was 100% honest in his reasons for winstrol use and I'm sure he's assured IEAH that ceasing to use Winstrol will have little or NO effect on his horses performance.
When NYRA instituted the detention/monitoring barn, High percentage trainers like Rick were just the guys they thought they'd have a huge impact (negative) on. I predicted that it WOULD NOT, and would even create a bigger gap from top to the middle to bottom of the trainer standings.
Whatever these guys are doing is either: 1) Not detectable (naturally metabolized into a horses system) or
2) A combination of LEGAL supplements when combined have a positive effect on a horses performance giving them a LEGAL edge.
Little guy, for once your TOTALLY making sense.

[GameTheory]

You are 100% absolutely correct. The steroid anouncement is a smokescreen.
I've stated on this forum how Dutrow is NOT a big user/believer in steroids and his steroid program is not aggressive nor designed to build muscle mass.
(Go to the paddock and look at Asmussen's horses physically compared to Dutrows)
Dutrow was 100% honest in his reasons for winstrol use and I'm sure he's assured IEAH that ceasing to use Winstrol will have little or NO effect on his horses performance.
When NYRA instituted the detention/monitoring barn, High percentage trainers like Rick were just the guys they thought they'd have a huge impact (negative) on. I predicted that it WOULD NOT, and would even create a bigger gap from top to the middle to bottom of the trainer standings.
Whatever these guys are doing is either: 1) Not detectable (naturally metabolized into a horses system) or
2) A combination of LEGAL supplements when combined have a positive effect on a horses performance giving them a LEGAL edge.
Little guy, for once your TOTALLY making sense.It wasn't just a steroid announcement, it was all drugs. And if was a smokescreen, that implies that Dutrow *is* using undetectable designer drugs. So you've been defending him on the steroid issue, but you think he is a cheater just the same?

Isn't part of any reform going to involve saving blood samples to be tested in the future? It seems to be unlikely these guys are going to come out and make this proclamation out of the blue saying they are going to be drug-free and offer to pay for tests while still using "undetectable" substances with no fear of being caught retroactively.

[njcurveball]

“We have decided to withdraw all of our horses from medication, except for Lasix,” IEAH co-president Mike Iavarone told Blood-Horse. “We’re beginning Oct. 1 because the horses should be clear of all substances by that time.

"The only thing we do, when my horses breeze I give them Bute. They might not run for two weeks, but when they breeze I give them all Bute after they breeze, and I don't use a needle, I give the Bute paste. I keep my horses on Clenbuterol, which helps keep their head clear of mucus, and the vets do not give that; I give it right over the tongue. I give my horses Adequan (which improves joint function) the day that they breeze if they have issues. And I give my horses Winstrol; that's all that I do.


Now let's see

1.) Lasix
2.) Bute
3.) Clenbuterol
4.) Adequan
5.) Winstrol

That's all that I do.

I guess this is like Amy Winehouse saying she smokes cigarettes and pot and crack and that is all she does! :lol:

They are also selling breeding shares in their geldings really really cheap! Lots of stakes winning geldings as well! :lol:

C'mon now, anyone really believe it will be ONLY Lasix! ;) :D

[GameTheory]

Well, I don't think he was saying he was banning meds altogether during training (except steroids, presumably) -- horses do have ailments that need treatment, after all. Just that everything will be out of the system on race day, including legal meds other than Lasix. Correct?

Even if all meds are banned, we're still talking race day. No one is going to prevent someone giving a horse an anti-inflammatory for an injury, for instance.

[DJofSD]

Well, I don't think he was saying he was banning meds altogether during training (except steroids, presumably) -- horses do have ailments that need treatment, after all. Just that everything will be out of the system on race day, including legal meds other than Lasix. Correct?

Even if all meds are banned, we're still talking race day. No one is going to prevent someone giving a horse an anti-inflammatory for an injury, for instance.
That's what I have expected all along.

If racing does adopt a zero-drug policy for race day, what will be the impact to filling races? I can see it now, the racing secretary beating the bushes on the back stretch, getting no entries to fill out a race b/c horses in training have detectable levels of meds.

[GameTheory]

That's what I have expected all along.

If racing does adopt a zero-drug policy for race day, what will be the impact to filling races? I can see it now, the racing secretary beating the bushes on the back stretch, getting no entries to fill out a race b/c horses in training have detectable levels of meds.I don't really think this will happen. If horses really have to race without meds, then they will. Maybe they'll race slower or at lower class levels or whatever, but they'll race. After a transition period, injuries should go down (because horses won't be running when they aren't fit enough to run, but they will run a couple weeks later and not get injured in the process) and overall soundness should go up. That's the point, after all. Maybe we'll see an influx of foreign horses...

[slewis]

It wasn't just a steroid announcement, it was all drugs. And if was a smokescreen, that implies that Dutrow *is* using undetectable designer drugs. So you've been defending him on the steroid issue, but you think he is a cheater just the same?

Isn't part of any reform going to involve saving blood samples to be tested in the future? It seems to be unlikely these guys are going to come out and make this proclamation out of the blue saying they are going to be drug-free and offer to pay for tests while still using "undetectable" substances with no fear of being caught retroactively.

My "smokescreen" statement, implies only to the effect Winstrol or other steroids have on Dutrow's horses, which is very little. The mis-conception in the media and on this forum is that it has an ENORMOUS effect. Ok, everyone will see...... Big Brown will race again, off winstrol, and he'll probably run back to his KDreby figures. or better.
I'm not "defending" Dutrow, or bashing Asmussen for that matter. Steroid use is legal and that's that. I've just tried to post from PERSONAL experience that the winstrol use is not seriously performance enhancing when administered the way Rick does.
As for your next implication I take offense, because I again have stated that I believe many if not all of the top trainers have tricks up their sleeves.
Until proven guilty, I have to assume those tricks to be "legal edges" (which I know factually,as stated on another thread, DO EXIST) or, if illegal, are undetectable.
I honestly dont know who does which or what.

I'm wondering though if this "drug free" nonsense IEAH is claiming includes "hind end" work, blistering, stifles, ankle taps, hocks, normal 21st century vet stuff, because if it does, they are going to be at a SERIOUS disadvantage.

[GameTheory]

My "smokescreen" statement, implies only to the effect Winstrol or other steroids have on Dutrow's horses, which is very little. The mis-conception in the media and on this forum is that it has an ENORMOUS effect. Ok, everyone will see...... Big Brown will race again, off winstrol, and he'll probably run back to his KDreby figures. or better.
I'm not "defending" Dutrow, or bashing Asmussen for that matter. Steroid use is legal and that's that. I've just tried to post from PERSONAL experience that the winstrol use is not seriously performance enhancing when administered the way Rick does.
As for your next implication I take offense, because I again have stated that I believe many if not all of the top trainers have tricks up their sleeves.
Until proven guilty, I have to assume those tricks to be "legal edges" (which I know factually,as stated on another thread, DO EXIST) or, if illegal, are undetectable.
I honestly dont know who does which or what.

I'm wondering though if this "drug free" nonsense IEAH is claiming includes "hind end" work, blistering, stifles, ankle taps, hocks, normal 21st century vet stuff, because if it does, they are going to be at a SERIOUS disadvantage.I'm just trying to find out why you say their statement is a "smokescreen" and "nonsense". That implies that they are lying. What are they lying about?

[slewis]

I don't really think this will happen. If horses really have to race without meds, then they will. Maybe they'll race slower or at lower class levels or whatever, but they'll race. After a transition period, injuries should go down (because horses won't be running when they aren't fit enough to run, but they will run a couple weeks later and not get injured in the process) and overall soundness should go up. That's the point, after all. Maybe we'll see an influx of foreign horses...

Hey Game theory,

This is not a personal attack so dont take it as such. Looking at your avatar, looks like your a hoop fan.
I wonder if you know how many cc's of cortizone Willis Reed took in his knees during the Knicks world championship run in the 70's. And this is when they DID NOT know the long term effects of cortizone or other anti-inflamatories
How many NBA, NHL, MLB players get medical "help" each and every game to make it through??
The point I'm making here is that this drug uproar, to which there are NO easy solutions to, has gone WAY WAY overboard.
The cries for complete drug-free racing are unrealistic and absurd.
The cries for a stricht national standards or oversight is even dumber and impossible to impliment.

[GameTheory]

Hey Game theory,

This is not a personal attack so dont take it as such. Looking at your avatar, looks like your a hoop fan.
I wonder if you know how many cc's of cortizone Willis Reed took in his knees during the Knicks world championship run in the 70's. And this is when they DID NOT know the long term effects of cortizone or other anti-inflamatories
How many NBA, NHL, MLB players get medical "help" each and every game to make it through??
The point I'm making here is that this drug uproar, to which there are NO easy solutions to, has gone WAY WAY overboard.
The cries for complete drug-free racing are unrealistic and absurd.
The cries for a stricht national standards or oversight is even dumber and impossible to impliment.But they have "drug-free" racing in other countries and they have full fields and quality races. That's all people want. Why is that unrealistic and absurd when it is already being done?

[slewis]

I'm just trying to find out why you say their statement is a "smokescreen" and "nonsense". That implies that they are lying. What are they lying about?

It does not imply that they are lying. People believe Big Brown and other Dutrow horses NEED Winstrol. Rick knows that they DO NOT NEED Winstrol to race effectively.
Therefore: It's easy for IEAH to say "ALL of our horses will race steroid-free", giving the illusion that they are against the use of winstrol as a performance enhancing drug when, when administered as infrequently as Dutrow does, wont enhance performance much anyway. So in effect, they are losing nothing.
Note they wouldn't give in on Lasix because it gives too much of an edge away.
Hence the smokescreen.

[slewis]

But they have "drug-free" racing in other countries and they have full fields and quality races. That's all people want. Why is that unrealistic and absurd when it is already being done?

Count the number of tracks in Japan, UK and FRA.
Count the number of race dates and races per day.

Then compare to and avg Saturday in the USA.

That should answer your question.

[GameTheory]

It does not imply that they are lying. People believe Big Brown and other Dutrow horses NEED Winstrol. Rick knows that they DO NOT NEED Winstrol to race effectively.
Therefore: It's easy for IEAH to say "ALL of our horses will race steroid-free", giving the illusion that they are against the use of winstrol as a performance enhancing drug when, when administered as infrequently as Dutrow does, wont enhance performance much anyway. So in effect, they are losing nothing.
Note they wouldn't give in on Lasix because it gives too much of an edge away.
Hence the smokescreen.Ok, if lying is too strong they are being deceptive anyway (according to you). In other words, they don't care about the drug issue, and they will not change their behavior in any way that really matters...

[GameTheory]

Count the number of tracks in Japan, UK and FRA.
Count the number of race dates and races per day.

Then compare to and avg Saturday in the USA.

That should answer your question.Don't forget Australia. Please compare the populations of these countries relative to the USA.

[DJofSD]

Don't forget Australia. Please compare the populations of these countries relative to the USA.

And relative sizes along with purses.

[ezpace]

for the asian herbs etc.. that DO IT ALL bleeders,pain ,
. metabolism speed up etc...

[Shenanigans]

Lasix is a diuretic. It can cost a horse a race more times than help win a race.... especially if the horse has no reason to be on it (non-bleeder) and it's 90+ degrees.

[Shenanigans]

DUH..of course it's a med...guess letting a horse run bleeding is Ok then?
Every trainer that has bleeders will want to keep Lasix...until we start breeding horses that don't bleed...and don't say that the trainers should then send a bleeding horse to the farm or something...we'd have about 75% less horses!!

Where do you get your figures? Are you saying 75% of the horses running need lasix??? Do a little research and you will find that more than half that are running never bled a day in their life. So what gives them the reason for being on Lasix?
I remember a quote from Seth Hancock talking about 10 two year olds in a race and eight of them on Lasix. I would bet none of them bled in a work and like Hancock stated, if they had, maybe it's a sign the horse wasn't fit and shouldn't be racing yet.

[slewis]

Ok, if lying is too strong they are being deceptive anyway (according to you). In other words, they don't care about the drug issue, and they will not change their behavior in any way that really matters...

Let's say it's highly unlikely that they would be willing to run at ANY medical disadvantage whatsoever (no successful racing stable does). If you want to call it being deceptive or flat out lying, that's your call. Anyway you spin it, it's a good P.R. move, except to those who know it's nothing more then ..a good P.R. move.

[point given]

interesting article on Larry Jones attributing his success to other trainers taking their hosses off steriods, while he doesn't use them, so a built in advantage for him. story goes on about how one of his might have been given something to make him and his owner look bad, as they are anti drugs for theirs.

You know the game is in serious trouble when connections tell their trainer, " dont get outvetted " (not in this article , just my experience in saddling areas)

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20080622_Horse_trained_by_Jones_fails_postrace_tes t_for_drugs.html

[sammy the sage]

Doesn't that make these Guy's AUTOMATIC BET AGAINST the next month or so?

Don't get me wrong...I applaud the effort...but til we get a LEVEL PLAYING field...doesn't one logically try to get back some funds lost due to this crap!

[joanied]

Where do you get your figures? Are you saying 75% of the horses running need lasix??? Do a little research and you will find that more than half that are running never bled a day in their life. So what gives them the reason for being on Lasix?
I remember a quote from Seth Hancock talking about 10 two year olds in a race and eight of them on Lasix. I would bet none of them bled in a work and like Hancock stated, if they had, maybe it's a sign the horse wasn't fit and shouldn't be racing yet.

I was exaggerating to make a point...but hey, you know more than I do.
If a horse isn't a bleeder, then no Lasix.
And I do not beleive 2 yr olds, or any horse, should be given any med if he doesn't need it.

[ezpace]

know what THEIR trainers have

given THEIR horses. PERIOD

Half the trainers don't know

what the vet gave them. The

trainer just tells them"give him some go fast"

Many trainers do their own thing and are

sharper at it than a lot of vets.

[cj]

So, how upset will be they be that their boy Dick got another positive?

From yahoo:

The news of the test comes just days after IEAH Stables, co-owners of Big Brown, stepped forward and said it would take all of the 50-plus horses in their stable off steroids and shy away from trainers who continue to use the drugs to maintain their horses.

“If they don’t want to play by the rules, then they don’t get to train with us,” Michael Iavarone, co-president of IEAH, told The Associated Press in an interview Monday.