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View Full Version : Larry Jones...positive is BS


joanied
06-22-2008, 02:20 PM
The link I posted here is from Goggle. I used the Google link because there are several of the same story listed there.
This story reeks of BS...and I would be willing to bet someone did sabatoge Larry Jones... People are getting way out of control concerning racing & drugs, and I would also bet bigtime, if this was a deliberate act against Larry Jones, it was PETA that did it.
Anyway...if you guys haven't seen this story yet...maybe it'll piss you off as much as it did me. This man has been through enough.




http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=jones%20drugs&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn

rrbauer
06-22-2008, 03:38 PM
Hey, the guy got a positive and he says it might be. Admits he administered clenbuterol 4 days before the race. In some jurisdictions, you can't administer that drug within 7 days of a race if you want to avoid a positive.

It is what it is. If you want to read fantasyland into it that's your biz....

And, clenbuterol ain't water, oats or hay!

DrugS
06-22-2008, 04:31 PM
Even people who wear pointed tin foil hats have to think the idea that PETA was responsible for a Clen overage is silly.

In states where steroids are banned - trainers are upping the amount of Clen they use.

One trainer at PID who is doing well here told me he is doubling the Clen he normally gives to his horses because of the states new steroid ban.

Jones is winning at over 40% at Delaware and in the exacta over 75% - he just finally got caught playing with fire and had a horse test with more than the allowable levels in his system. For his owner to cry sabotage is absurd.

bigmack
06-22-2008, 05:21 PM
Jones is winning at over 40% at Delaware and in the exacta over 75% -
Holy Tomato Paste!

I can hear it now "hold the roids and give me extra Clen". My "all burger" spot plays will never be the same.

HUSKER55
06-22-2008, 06:01 PM
Is clenbuterol a steroid? How are steroids regulated? If a drug is legal are they restricted ?

I know little about this. My neighbor says they used to give horse anti-inflamatories, (group name?) so horses didn't have aches and pains. But as he said, that was years ago.

Thanks

husker55

:)

Nacumi
06-22-2008, 06:12 PM
Clenbuterol is a a bronchodilator. It's used to ensure that a horse's airway is WIDE open, and is useful in training to keep the breathing passage open and free of mucous, etc., when horses are going at less than full speed.
It's imprudent and dangerous (and illegal) to use it on race day because of all the other things that can get tossed into a wide open airway, like track kickback and other irritants, particularly as much is still unknown about the long term effects of artificial surface kickback in the horse's lungs. There are certain notable clenbuterol trainer abusers who have used it so much that they've created equine junkies who retain the substance in their organs and don't even pass it out in urine.
The recommended withdrawal time for it is 72 hours in most jurisdictions.

Shenanigans
06-22-2008, 07:25 PM
He admitted to using it on the horse. Sure, he probably used it the required amount of time out, but not every horse is guaranteed to metabolize it the same.
My question to why he is using it??? It is commonly used for horses that are sick and have a lot of mucus in the lungs. It cleans them out well. But a trainer shouldn't be running their sick horse 3 days later either. This is just another drug being abused and trainers are using it to get an edge. Using it 3 days before the race isn't because the horse is sick. It's because the trainer is looking for that edge.

BIG49010
06-22-2008, 07:41 PM
The state's of Pennsylvania and Delaware are crazy with these new drug limits,
you are going to see some of the smallist fields of slow horses in the country, racing for big purses.

They don't care though, they have slot revenue, and the fines from the people that try to run horses in there states.

A friend of mine lost a purse, and was fined $500 for a steroid overage at Presque Isle. The vet told them the horse could be run 2 weeks after a treatment, which is what they did, and they were still over by the state standards.

Your going to see more short priced horses like Big Brown run out of the money if trainers are affraid to run on meds and roids. As for trying to look at a horse's form via a past performance forget about it.

Shenanigans
06-22-2008, 07:51 PM
The state's of Pennsylvania and Delaware are crazy with these new drug limits,
you are going to see some of the smallist fields of slow horses in the country, racing for big purses.

They don't care though, they have slot revenue, and the fines from the people that try to run horses in there states.

A friend of mine lost a purse, and was fined $500 for a steroid overage at Presque Isle. The vet told them the horse could be run 2 weeks after a treatment, which is what they did, and they were still over by the state standards.

Your going to see more short priced horses like Big Brown run out of the money if trainers are affraid to run on meds and roids. As for trying to look at a horse's form via a past performance forget about it.

My question is, if you know you are running in a state with a ban on steroids why would you administer it at all?? Same with the clenbuterol - if the horse isn't sick and full of mucus, why is it being administered? It's because the trainer is still looking for the edge over the rest of the field. Sorry, if you choose to push the rules, play with fire, you get burned.

discodog
06-22-2008, 08:40 PM
Kudos to you Rich, what happened to Hay, Oats, and Water. Three days before makes me think he was trying to take the edge. Maybe he's new to Chemistry, or the Vet told him it was far enough out not to be picked up. In which case the Vet should be Fined, and Suspended, with good ole Larry Boy. The owner wants to donate the winnings for the investigation if they need it. What planet is he from? Does he think he's going to get to keep the purse?

BIG49010
06-22-2008, 08:57 PM
My question is, if you know you are running in a state with a ban on steroids why would you administer it at all?? Same with the clenbuterol - if the horse isn't sick and full of mucus, why is it being administered? It's because the trainer is still looking for the edge over the rest of the field. Sorry, if you choose to push the rules, play with fire, you get burned.


The problem I see, is many horses that have become usefull (being they make a profit for an owner) because of steroids, clenbuterol, and other advancements will now be sent to Canada or somewhere for meat because they are to slow to be competitive.

I don't believe the racing world will pay large purses for horses that run 6 furlongs in a minute and 20 seconds, and if they do it is more reason to cheat!

joanied
06-22-2008, 10:22 PM
Well, huh:faint: Guess you guys are correcto-mundo...he did admit to using it...thank goodness Eight Belles testing came back clean...
I don't know, I am really loosing faith here...I'm an optimistic person and beleive in the benefit of the doubt...but this entire drug thing has gotten so damned out of control, I just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.
This just plain sucks.
:( :mad: :(

I am thinking that Larry listened to his vet's advice...and got burned. Maybe it IS time to start getting after the vet's...after all, it does begin and end with them...they are the one's with the syringes :ThmbDown:

lamboguy
06-22-2008, 10:30 PM
THE VETS ARE RUINING THIS GAME. it has become chemical warfare out there in the trenches. i just got a $8400 vet bill for a horse 2 weeks old with an intestinal problem. they told me they had to segregate the hore because she had diareaa

another bill i got from a vet in florida on a yearling. i had to take a chip out of a rear ankle. $2300. took an x-ray and found another chip in same ankle, another $2300.

i have paid more for vet bills than training bills alot of the time, that is why i don't mind selling champions.

as far as steroids are concerned, i took a philly off of winstrol in november, her coat has looked awful for 3 months, looks good now, had to cheapen up the horse as well

rrbauer
06-22-2008, 10:48 PM
as far as steroids are concerned, i took a philly off of winstrol in november, her coat has looked awful for 3 months, looks good now, had to cheapen up the horse as well

Aw c'mon man. This is not baseball. It's FILLY! :lol: :lol:

beenacoach
06-22-2008, 11:32 PM
And, clenbuterol ain't water, oats or hay![/QUOTE]

Neither is Red Cell or vitamin B-12, or Air Power, or a hundred other feed additives or booster shots horses get in order to feel better and run better. NO ONE runs on oats, hay, and water. NO ONE.

It is RACING people. It is a competative endeavor. Everyone is looking for an advantage. Some look for an advantage that is not legal and others look for every legal advantage they can get. But, everyone looks for an advantage.

ezpace
06-23-2008, 12:54 AM
contact any honest** vet in KY

ask them how many conformation birth defects

their are of foals in ky ,fl,and ca the last five years.

Some of them think the dope is now in the blood dna

. so, they operate if they can to straighten legs out etc.,,get the

weanlings,yearlings straightened out so they can sell them at auctions.

Cot Campbell ..Dogwood Stable has been screaming and doing something

about it for 3 years but the pracice keeps going on an on.

THIS CRAP IS GETTING VERY SICKENING...

rrbauer
06-23-2008, 10:03 AM
And, clenbuterol ain't water, oats or hay.

Neither is Red Cell or vitamin B-12, or Air Power, or a hundred other feed additives or booster shots horses get in order to feel better and run better. NO ONE runs on oats, hay, and water. NO ONE.



Since I don't know who you are I can't determine if you really think/know that "NO ONE" is running on oats, hay and water; or, if you're taking some literary leeway here. And, the phrase, "hay, oats and water" is used in the context of "no drugs" being used to mask or mitigate physical abnormalities. It's a common phrase used in the industry in the context noted.

garyoz
06-23-2008, 10:31 AM
but this entire drug thing has gotten so damned out of control, I just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel...maybe it IS time to start getting after the vet's...after all, it does begin and end with them...they are the one's with the syringes :ThmbDown:

I think the problem is that the trainer is responsible for his/her charge---no questions that some vets are the villians here--but what do you do go after them for malpractice? Doubt there is regulatory basis for that. Best thing that could happen is someone on the inside act as a deep throat --- Balco (baseball steriods) only happened when some anonymously sent a vial to a testing lab.

I had a friend with a horse on the Jersey circuit who switched to a "name" trainer and his monthly vet bill went up five-fold.

joanied
06-23-2008, 12:09 PM
I think the problem is that the trainer is responsible for his/her charge---no questions that some vets are the villians here--but what do you do go after them for malpractice? Doubt there is regulatory basis for that. Best thing that could happen is someone on the inside act as a deep throat --- Balco (baseball steriods) only happened when some anonymously sent a vial to a testing lab.

I had a friend with a horse on the Jersey circuit who switched to a "name" trainer and his monthly vet bill went up five-fold.

The trainers should be in responsible for their horses...and for the most part, they are...but one can only assume they go by whatever their vet suggests doing...and the vet will certainly suggest some medication that is priced sky high...and in most cases, really not necessary.
Your friend switches to a 'name' trainer...same horse, same problems, yet the vet bill goes up...why? Could it be because this is a 'name' trainer, the meds are costing more...these vets are goping to charge whatever they can get away with, and it's not fair. I'd bet a shot of something that the vet pays $5.00 for, will cost the traiiner (owner) $40.00.

It's highway robbery at it's best.

garyoz
06-23-2008, 03:59 PM
Your friend switches to a 'name' trainer...same horse, same problems, yet the vet bill goes up...why? Could it be because this is a 'name' trainer, the meds are costing more...these vets are goping to charge whatever they can get away with, and it's not fair. I'd bet a shot of something that the vet pays $5.00 for, will cost the traiiner (owner) $40.00.
It's highway robbery at it's best.

I should have mentioned the gelding also won several races and its speed figures (Ragozin) jumped dramatically. I think the bill was for "therapeutic" substances. At this point, I would bet this horse made "the trip to Canada" (euphemism) as the last past performance I could find was from more than 3 years ago. He was claimed away from my friend--who would have taken better care of him.

Trainers winning at a 30 - 50% clip are more ridiculous than Bonds or Sosa, and IMHO it goes well beyond the identified substances.

joanied
06-23-2008, 04:26 PM
I should have mentioned the gelding also won several races and its speed figures (Ragozin) jumped dramatically. I think the bill was for "therapeutic" substances. At this point, I would bet this horse made "the trip to Canada" (euphemism) as the last past performance I could find was from more than 3 years ago. He was claimed away from my friend--who would have taken better care of him.

Trainers winning at a 30 - 50% clip are more ridiculous than Bonds or Sosa, and IMHO it goes well beyond the identified substances.

Well, I feel bad for that gelding.
And :ThmbUp: to your statement using Bonds & Sosa.

Shenanigans
06-23-2008, 07:55 PM
The problem I see, is many horses that have become usefull (being they make a profit for an owner) because of steroids, clenbuterol, and other advancements will now be sent to Canada or somewhere for meat because they are to slow to be competitive.

I don't believe the racing world will pay large purses for horses that run 6 furlongs in a minute and 20 seconds, and if they do it is more reason to cheat!

So you are saying that it is fine that said horse that runs great on all those meds will be making it's way to the breeding shed to pass on those weaknesses? Do these horses really need these meds??
Why is it these other countries that don't allow all these meds seem to be doing fine with their racing? Better yet, how is it that European and Saudi Arabia can buy our yearlings and race them without all the meds but U.S. buyers/owners can't???

joanied
06-24-2008, 10:58 AM
So you are saying that it is fine that said horse that runs great on all those meds will be making it's way to the breeding shed to pass on those weaknesses? Do these horses really need these meds??
Why is it these other countries that don't allow all these meds seem to be doing fine with their racing? Better yet, how is it that European and Saudi Arabia can buy our yearlings and race them without all the meds but U.S. buyers/owners can't???

Because over there, they can't use drugs!!

sally
06-24-2008, 11:37 AM
With the spotlight on all the trainers caught using drugs I see the vets as the "Peter Lorres" standing around the corner looking on. Truth is the only difference between a no name trainer and a "name" trainer is drugs. Every one of those "super" trainers has been caught at one time or another-- Eclipse award winners, oh yeah! Kudos to Pennsylvannia and Delaware for implimenting drugs rules...

john del riccio
06-24-2008, 03:27 PM
With the spotlight on all the trainers caught using drugs I see the vets as the "Peter Lorres" standing around the corner looking on. Truth is the only difference between a no name trainer and a "name" trainer is drugs. Every one of those "super" trainers has been caught at one time or another-- Eclipse award winners, oh yeah! Kudos to Pennsylvannia and Delaware for implimenting drugs rules...

Sally,

DEL has long been the place known as the inmates running the isialum (sp?),
I am not going to pat them on the back for some time. Horses will NEVER hol dtheit form/numbers coming out of DEL unless they are the exception, not the rule.

John

sally
06-24-2008, 04:52 PM
John,

Then do you think this new ban on steriods is just smoke and mirrors? I have the impression they need to prove their seriousness to you before you "pat them on the back", and it seems you have some reason to be reticent about that, but to me, at least they are doing something...

Shenanigans
06-24-2008, 07:31 PM
Because over there, they can't use drugs!!

Duh!! That's not my point. You obviously missed my question: "Why is it these other countries that don't allow all these meds seem to be fine with their racing?" My point is that American bred horses can run overseas, just fine, without any help from drugs. Why does everyone think if we stop using all the medication, that racing will go to hell here in the states??

john del riccio
06-24-2008, 09:14 PM
John,

Then do you think this new ban on steriods is just smoke and mirrors? I have the impression they need to prove their seriousness to you before you "pat them on the back", and it seems you have some reason to be reticent about that, but to me, at least they are doing something...Sally,



A few years ago when I was attempting to claim at DEL and the claim slip stated " for a fee of 50.00, you can have your claim tested for EPOGEN and a positive will void the claim", I knew I was in a bad spot.

STEROIDS aren't the answer here, CO2, Clenenbuturol on race day, whatever else is ahead of the chemists...

Steroids have been in vogue since Lukas was king, 20 or more years ? Its beyond that.... If Big brother gets involved to the extent that people are clammoring for, its gonna be a bloodbath !

Horseraceing has never, I repeat, never been drug free. I doubt 70% of the horses could make it through a race with nothing but lasix as has been purported lately... There is reality, then there is rhetoric...

DEL is the king of horses running off the charts...Speed figure guys get a bad rap because "we know". When you start seeing horses from the same guys running figs that make NO SENSE, its hard not to take notice. DEL is that place and it was alot worse back in the day.

That swhy I am a bit resistent to pat them on the ass.

John

joanied
06-24-2008, 11:01 PM
Duh!! That's not my point. You obviously missed my question: "Why is it these other countries that don't allow all these meds seem to be fine with their racing?" My point is that American bred horses can run overseas, just fine, without any help from drugs. Why does everyone think if we stop using all the medication, that racing will go to hell here in the states??
I am not 'everyone' and I never said without drugs racing here in the States would go all to hell.

"Why is it these other countries that don't allow all these meds seem to be doing fine with their racing? Better yet, how is it that European and Saudi Arabia can buy our yearlings and race them without all the meds but U.S. buyers/owners can't???"

using your quote above, shenanigans...
I may be :confused: ...but your points are not clear in the above quote...
but to try and reply...
I have no good answer to that...do you? Maybe because they take their time with horses over there, they train different than we do...long gallops, not much speed works, maybe because most races are on the grass, and maybe because they don't race all year. Maybe because when they buy a yearling here, it hasn't been pumped full of drugs as yet, so it's relatively 'clean' and stays that way, and without the drugs, the owners/trainers will soon enough know if they have a good horse or not...which is the way it should be.

What do you think?