Which proposed reform should have highest priority?

[Indulto]

Some choices are more complicated than others, but I intentionally over-specified them to limit the number of options.

Please feel free to suggest additions and modifications. ;)

[Indulto]

The proposed National Racing Board of Directors I envision would be made up of representatives elected by tracks, hormen, horseplayers, State governments, (others?) who would in turn elect an executive director (Comissioner, Czar?) with broad powers to resolve disputes and ensure cooperation and uniformity.

[raybo]

Where's the "ADW signals access" part of the poll? IMO, this is one, if not the most important reform needed, for those of us who wager online. Am I missing something or is HANA not interested in all sites that offer wagering platforms having access to signals from all tracks?

[ryesteve]

Where's the "ADW signals access" part of the poll? IMO, this is one, if not the most important reform neededI agree... this would be #1 on my list.

[GARY Z]

it would seem obvious to protect the interests of the :

horse/jockey

betting public

keeping this sport alive for the next decade(or more)


that uniform standards ,rigid supervision ,and harsh penalties for
violations must be implemented .

judging from my friends and clients, most of whom have little interest
in horse racing, the spotlight on the Triple Crown events have confirmed
their previous suspicions of drug abuse, animal cruelty, and Racing
officials who serve the interests of their track rather than protect
the thoroughbred and public.

[DJofSD]

This poll is to solicit input for HANA? I'd assume so since it's in that section of the forum.

ADW equity is my major interest.

[Indulto]

My apologies, ladies and gentlemen.

This was my first attempt at setting one of these up and I screwed up several panels in a sleepless senior moment.:blush:

"Apply race venue wager min. regardless of wager origin"

should have read

"Accept all wager types for all tracks at all wagering sites/locations applying race venue wager minimum regardless of wager origin"

I've asked PA to delete this thread for a re-do, but if a moderator can make changes, would whoever is moderating please PM me.

Thanks to those who have responded so far.

[beenacoach]

HANA is in it's developemental stages and we closely monitor nearly all of the posts in PA with an eye towards priorities of horseplayers. This pole will be watched very closely. I assure you that signal availablity and lowering take outs are high on the list of issues that need to be addressed.

[Indulto]

This poll is to solicit input for HANA? I'd assume so since it's in that section of the forum.

ADW equity is my major interest.DJ,
This poll is intended to solicit input for HANA's benefit, but also for that of any person or group interested in the horseplayer's perspective.

I'm trying to follow up on a suggestion I made to bac to try and obtain an early consensus from an audience wider than war room attendees alone.

The poll option descriptions really require multiple inputs to avoid confusion, and this first draft obviously needs improvement. I'm not certain what "ADW equity"means , but I also want to attract responses from customers of all ADW vendors.

Any suggestions for option descriptions are most welcome as would a technique for collecting individual prioritazation of the entire list to eventually eliminate elements of lowest interest.

[DJofSD]

ADW equity involves a number of issues.

First and foremost, eliminate the exclusivity nature that currently exists. This results in a need to maintain accounts with more than one ADW vendor if you want to wager on any or all tracks. All ADW vendors have access to all tracks, all the time. I can open a brokerage account with any broker and buy shares from any US based company from the appropriate exchange. The way racing exists now it would like having to open an account with Charles Schwab to buy shares on the NYSE and another account with Interactive Brokers to buy shares on the NASDAQ.

Rebates. As far as I'm concerned, any ADW should be able to offer a rebate if they so choose. Tell the states and the various horsemen groups to butt out and to stop trying to stick their collective noses into some one else's business -- literally. In jockey's parlance, they're trying to ride too many horses in a race.

To drill down on this issue a little further, I think this is where the Federal government needs to take this decission away from the states. I believe this is an issue best tackled by the Interstate Commerce clause of the US Constitution. The laws in different states, as it pertains to wagering and rebates, represents an impendiment to commerce. If the Federal government determines rebates can not be denied by the states it then becomes a business decission by the vendors, and then, if the states want to horn in on the action, let them negotiate. Essentially, the Federal government needs to level the playing field.

[Indulto]

ADW equity involves a number of issues.

First and foremost, eliminate the exclusivity nature that currently exists. This results in a need to maintain accounts with more than one ADW vendor if you want to wager on any or all tracks. All ADW vendors have access to all tracks, all the time. I can open a brokerage account with any broker and buy shares from any US based company from the appropriate exchange. The way racing exists now it would like having to open an account with Charles Schwab to buy shares on the NYSE and another account with Interactive Brokers to buy shares on the NASDAQ.

Rebates. As far as I'm concerned, any ADW should be able to offer a rebate if they so choose. Tell the states and the various horsemen groups to butt out and to stop trying to stick their collective noses into some one else's business -- literally. In jockey's parlance, they're trying to ride too many horses in a race.

To drill down on this issue a little further, I think this is where the Federal government needs to take this decission away from the states. I believe this is an issue best tackled by the Interstate Commerce clause of the US Constitution. The laws in different states, as it pertains to wagering and rebates, represents an impendiment to commerce. If the Federal government determines rebates can not be denied by the states it then becomes a business decission by the vendors, and then, if the states want to horn in on the action, let them negotiate. Essentially, the Federal government needs to level the playing field.Thanks for the feedback.

It sounds as if the following three are your highest priorities:


1) Accept all wager types for all tracks at all wagering sites/locations applying race venue wager minimum regardless of wager origin

2) Allow tracks and ADWs to offer rebates competitively

3) Establish a Central Authority/Governing Body for the sport with representation for horseplayers.


Is it fair to say that you prefer rebates to lower direct takeout?

[DJofSD]

1) Accept all wager types for all tracks at all wagering sites/locations applying race venue wager minimum regardless of wager origin

2) Allow tracks and ADWs to offer rebates competitively

3) Establish a Central Authority/Governing Body for the sport with representation for horseplayers.


Is it fair to say that you prefer rebates to lower direct takeout?

Yes for (1) and (2).

As to a central authority, that is what I heard a number of owners request during the hearing before the House panel on Thursday. I am not in a hurry to "throw in" with the owners. However, I think the various parties have yet to show even an inkling of co-operation to even start to address the issues that divide the industry. I think it will be a cold day in hell before issues are resolved. If it takes a horse racing czar or comissioner to get on the other side of the issues, sooner rather than later, yes. Maybe we'll have a controlling authority with a limited lifetime such as the wrestling comission I head about during the Thursday hearings.

To extend to reply a bit, I am sympathetic to the issue of uniform racing rules. And even if we eliminate all race day medications, there will still need to be a have uniform treatment for violations. Again, it sounds like what I heard when comparisons were made to professional football, baseball, basketball, etc. If there's one lesson we should have learned by now, it is racing can not and will not govern itself. It is too self-serving, too much stuck in the old ways of thinking and doing things that existed prior to lotteries, expansion of casino gambling and the rise of the indian reservations, The thinking is too limited, too narrow and too out of touch with the current realities (do you really think those parties responsible for the current set of impasses can solve the problems they've created? I don't). Those parties are too slow to react and too limited in their approach to adapting to change. They need to have a little help. And it can only come from above in the form of either a comission or oversight by the legislative branch of the Federal government.

[PaceAdvantage]

Whatcha want me to do with this poll? I can add options, but there have been 14 responses already, so that messes up the whole point of a poll.

[Indulto]

Whatcha want me to do with this poll? I can add options, but there have been 14 responses already, so that messes up the whole point of a poll.PA,

Please change panel #9 to "Accept all wager types for all tracks at all wagering sites/locations"

Please zero out responses to panel 11

Please change panel #7 to "Offer live paddock video alternative to talking heads

Please change panel #1 to "Establish Central Authority/Governing Body for industry"

[asH]

Do you suppose a membership list, or membership drive an immediate concern.

Boycotting/protesting Belmont on the day'(s) of Nyra's takeout increase (capper's rally point) would be a good way to show the strength of the organization (how much can we affect the handle?). Doing so would bring attention to HANA (news) and probably help to increase membership (organize), snowball effect.

just a thought

[HUSKER55]

I like ash's idea. That would certainly get things stirred up. I also agree that we should be able to place wagers on any track from any adw.

[Indulto]

Do you suppose a membership list, or membership drive an immediate concern.

Boycotting/protesting Belmont on the day'(s) of Nyra's takeout increase (capper's rally point) would be a good way to show the strength of the organization (how much can we affect the handle?). Doing so would bring attention to HANA (news) and probably help to increase membership (organize), snowball effect.

just a thoughtI like ash's idea. That would certainly get things stirred up. I also agree that we should be able to place wagers on any track from any adw.Gentlemen,
Certainly addressing the NYRA/OTB issue is the "mission of the moment.'

With 90 days prior to implementation, there's a window of opportunity here for another petition. Hopefully, the Blood-Horse would be willing to cover it again (especially if it were addressed to Paterson, Silver, and Bruno). Maybe Mr. Marzelli of the Jockey Club would consider accepting it directly from us for presentation to them. Given Mr. Crist's position on the subject, it would be worth our effort to try and get him involved.

Such a petition could even serve as a membership drive for HANA among PA board members. If so, the petition could also be a publicity vehicle for HANA. IMO, however, it would require the participation of several leaders with JP's visibility and popularity here to pull off.

[asH]

operating individually, an person/cell could distribute flyers around local capper' watering holes, describing the action along with a web address leading them to HANA's site. The 'cell'/individual would distribute a HANA approved flyer- cost would be minimal, ream of paper, ink, time. Primary objective would be to connect with the capper.

[Kelso]

operating individually, an person/cell could distribute flyers around local capper' watering holes, describing the action along with a web address leading them to HANA's site. The 'cell'/individual would distribute a HANA approved flyer- cost would be minimal, ream of paper, ink, time. Primary objective would be to connect with the capper.

BOYCOTT BELMONT!

Attach a flyer, in Word format, and PA members can download/print/distribute at every track, OTB and DRF outlet within their respective reaches.

[PaceAdvantage]

BOYCOTT BELMONT!

Attach a flyer, in Word format, and PA members can download/print/distribute at every track, OTB and DRF outlet within their respective reaches.Yeah, boycott one of the few venues where management has lowered or fought for the lowering of takeout, only to have the state raise it on us to bail out OTBs....

How is this appropriate action?

[asH]

what would you suggest?

[GameTheory]

Re: withholding reform / tax issues

This will never happen coming from a player perspective. You think the government is going to give back money for your gambling just cause you think it ain't fair? HA!

However, if the tracks could be persuaded to take up the lobby and argue that it is costing THEM money (which it is by taking huge chunks of large payoffs immediately out of circulation and slowly strangling the racetracks biggest customers) and lowering their ability to generate tax revenues for the government then maybe something could get done...

[asH]

Once implemented this signals the beginning of more increases, this proposed 1% is simply the first step in the psychology of change…remember when gas was __ (fill in the blank). Let us not be naive to suffer paradigm paralysis.

How fair is it to pay for the mistakes of a mismanaged organization…did anyone get fired? major changes within?

What of the other tracks/state officials who are watching, if nothing is done what signal is perceived?

If Boycott is to strong….. then how bout’ -shopping elsewhere

[GameTheory]

NYRA takeout was lowered just a few years ago to 15%, right? What was it before that?

[Indulto]

PA,
Thanks for changing the wording as requested. Hopefully those that thought it most important to be able to bet all tracks from all sites/locations will go back and specify that option.

Thanks to all those who have voted so far.

Interestingly, so far option #1 leads #10 although one could argue that #1 and #3 are related, as are #4 and #5

Nice to know that at least 6 voters are doing so well that they are actually affected by IRS withholding. ;)

[slewis]

DJ's really covered all the bases.... great post.:ThmbUp:

[Kelso]

How is this appropriate action?It deprives the state of New York ... which you have acknowledged as the source of the most recent outrage ... of revenues upon which it is relying to fund that outrage. What could be more appropriate? (Are you suggesting we should just bend over and enjoy what NY gives us because you happen to like playing Belmont?)

[GameTheory]

You know, it is only an outrage if we are right and they are wrong. We are always saying that they should lower takeout and overall revenues will eventually go up. But if they raise takeout by 1% and they find that they actually make 1% more in real dollars, weren't they right in doing so? We're not in a position of strength because we don't have any hard evidence of our correctitude. What are the figures from NY from when they lowered rates a few years ago? Did they end up making more or less?

It seems to me someone needs to hire somebody to do a study to determine what the optimal takeout rates most likely are. Maybe HANA could fund such a study (if HANA ever has any money) since the tracks are never going to. But you've got to be careful what you wish for. Maybe the other side is right -- the degenerates will just keep betting the same amounts and digging further into their pockets as the takeout goes up. And maybe if rates are lowered that whole churn thing never really occurs...

[Indulto]

http://www.troyrecord.com/WebApp/appmanager/JRC/BigDaily;jsessionid=TmvqLgGNKD0bcgnvhPXLBPSBsJMdcj 880QRStG6cCHSQp8ZHFGd6!722366843?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pg_article&r21.pgpath=%2FTRD%2FSports%2FHorse+Racing&r21.content=%2FTRD%2FSports%2FHorse+Racing%2FHeadl ineList_Story_2244786
Racing under the microscope Part 2
By Nick Kling June 24, 2008… I had a personal example of how the sport's purported leadership is either powerless or unwilling to take action. Recently I traded email with Alex Waldrop, CEO of the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA).

… I sent Waldrop an email wondering if the NTRA was going to intercede on behalf of New York racing fans. The email said in part:

[…]

… Waldrop responded, in part, with the following: …

[…]

… The NTRA is a self-styled broad-based coalition of groups. What are the prospects that such an organization can develop a consensus on issues like takeout, coordination of dates for competing stakes races, conflicting post times at racetracks, or anything beyond the simplest feel-good measures? When they do, will there be enough support to take effective action?

In defense of Mr. Waldrop, he too testified at Thursday’s hearing. According to Daily Racing Form, Waldrop told the legislators the last thing racing needed was “another tax on our long-suffering customers.” Good for him. …
For DRF subscribers:

Much bluster but no solutions
By STEVEN CRIST 6/19/2008… Shockingly, the congresspeople were poorly informed, imperious, and inflammatory. …

… All but one of the … witnesses on the first panel … said they are so frustrated and disheartened by drugs in racing that the government should step in and do something. The problem with their statements was that none of them said precisely what should be done, effectively issuing a blanket invitation for the government to chase every wild goose of an issue that has been raised since the Kentucky Derby. The lone dissenter on the panel, Alan Marzelli of the Jockey Club, was quickly cast as the obstructionist villain by the committee for saying he agrees that racing should be led by a central body, but one led by the industry rather than the government.

… Jackson, … , wandered all over the racing map from inbreeding to simulcast rates, unfortunately speaking with greatest passion about what a poor return owners supposedly get on their investment in racing. He also managed to ignore the sport's fan base by claiming that owners are the game's only stakeholders because they supposedly invest $4 billion a year, ignoring the public's $15 billion annual parimutuel handle.

Alex Waldrop … was in fact the only witness even to mention the betting public …

[asH]

If this isnt an issue for the Horseplayers Association of North America, then I dont know what is.... how is HANA going to be perceived?....one way or another the take out issue will have to be addressed, and how it is addressed will define the organization . What would have happened if purses were cut?

They shoot horses don't they?
Horseplayers Association of North America (H.A.N.A.) (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=61)

[Indulto]

what would you suggest?asH,
You're a New Yorker. Why not target the Albany political triumvirate responsible for this travesty of justice?

The Governor and the Senate Majority Leader have boxes at Saratoga and will likely be in attendance at the beginning of the meeting. How about a silent protest in front of those boxes by t-shirted marchers wearing a slogan something like:

The takeout increase was player
taxation without representation

.Sen. Bruno and Gov. Paterson
..protected breeder and owner
funding when bailing out NYCOTB

...Nobody protected the fans

[raybo]

Think you should start the poll again, since the choices have changed since most of us voted. I voted "other" but you now have what I consider the most important issue listed.

[jonnielu]

How would you go about instituting withholding reform, if the use of your own authority is the only way to do it? Is anyone willing to exert their own authority?

jdl

[Indulto]

Think you should start the poll again, since the choices have changed since most of us voted. I voted "other" but you now have what I consider the most important issue listed.When PA changed the choice wording, he also zeroed out the two "other" responses at the time at my request. You should now be able to specify your choice. If not, please let me know.

[Indulto]

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/20595974.html (http://www.lvrj.com/sports/20595974.html)

Industry should use U.N. blueprint
By RICHARD ENG Jun. 20, 2008… Congress has subjected many sports to a public flogging on C-SPAN, but has little stomach for federal intervention. And why should it? Our government really doesn't want to meddle in the operation of bodies such as the NFL, MLB, NCAA, pro boxing and now horse racing. Congress has a lot more pressing issues to be concerned about.

The sports in question have been smart enough to take their medicine, then do the bare minimum to appease their harshest government critics. The big test for horse racing will be to meet that minimum standard so it then can be left alone.

I hope that's not asking for too much. Public opinion has forced horse racing to take a hard look at itself, and it's not a pretty sight.

Horse racing never will have a commissioner. It is not a league like the NFL or NBA. Horse racing consists of scores of fiefdoms fighting over turf as in medieval times.

Rather than a commissioner, what racing should use as a model is the United Nations. Give every group a seat at the table, and a vote. Recognize that the biggest shareholders deserve more influence, thus, they would form a Security Council. A secretary general would be elected to lead, such as Alex Waldrop of the NTRA or former head D.G. Van Clief.

The United Nations is not a perfect organization. But as a model for bringing horse racing chaos under some structure, the sport would be better off than the status quo. ...Waldrop and Van Clief are part of the existing problem.

Duncker might be a better choice.

Of course there's always that good old son of a horseplayer and breeding expert, W. Jefferson Clinton. ;)

[jonnielu]

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/20595974.html (http://www.lvrj.com/sports/20595974.html)

Industry should use U.N. blueprint
By RICHARD ENG Jun. 20, 2008Waldrop and Van Clief are part of the existing problem.[/font]

Duncker might be a better choice.

Of course there's always that good old son of a horseplayer and breeding expert, W. Jefferson Clinton. ;)

Not to mention that Congress is composed of incompetents that have f'ed up everything that the people let them get their hands on.

[asH]

asH,
You're a New Yorker. Why not target the Albany political triumvirate responsible for this travesty of justice?

The Governor and the Senate Majority Leader have boxes at Saratoga and will likely be in attendance at the beginning of the meeting. How about a silent protest in front of those boxes by t-shirted marchers wearing a slogan something like:

The takeout increase was player
taxation without representation

.Sen. Bruno and Gov. Paterson
..protected breeder and owner
funding when bailing out NYCOTB

...Nobody protected the fans


start a private campaign... brilliant.... Ill do that

[raybo]

When PA changed the choice wording, he also zeroed out the two "other" responses at the time at my request. You should now be able to specify your choice. If not, please let me know.

Says I've already voted and won't let me select any of the current choices.

[Cratos]

Some choices are more complicated than others, but I intentionally over-specified them to limit the number of options.

Please feel free to suggest additions and modifications. ;)


Every veterinarian that I have spoken with has said that a horse’s weight speaks volumes about its current health. Therefore a scale should be in the paddock to allow the horses to be weighed before they are saddled. This weight along with the assigned weight would be published in the program and over time the bettor would have a clear picture of the horse’s health with respect to its weight.

[Indulto]

Every veterinarian that I have spoken with has said that a horse’s weight speaks volumes about its current health. Therefore a scale should be in the paddock to allow the horses to be weighed before they are saddled. This weight along with the assigned weight would be published in the program and over time the bettor would have a clear picture of the horse’s health with respect to its weight.Cratos,
I would include your suggestion under a category, "Provide greater transparency regarding an entrant's physical status" in order to reduce the "insider information" advantage. Ideally, this would include all injuries, medical procedures, and therapy/treatments, but that woud have a drastic impact on claiming races. I didn't include that option because I believe option #1 would be a prerequisite.

Raybo,
PA has informed me that your vote for option #11 has been switched to option #9.

The 65 votes so far show how diverse the opinions of those willing to participate are. One might argue that -- at least for now -- the 12 votes for lowering takeout directly combined with the 12 votes to lower takeout effectively, suggest that takeout is the most popular issue, but not yet to the degree that would justify its becoming the mission of any horseplayer association.

I would like to encourage any members who haven't voted to do so. Again, if your issue isn't listed, choose "other" and, like Cratos, specify another potential option for use in a horseplayer association new member signup poll.

For you lurking non-members who think a horseplayer association separate from the NTRA Player Coalition is worthwhile, may I invite you to become a paceadvantage.com forum member (a valid e-mail address and agreeing with the Terms of Service is all that’s required) and make your opinion count.

[raybo]

Cratos,


Raybo,
PA has informed me that your vote for option #11 has been switched to option #9.



Indulto,

Thanks for the info.

Ray

[beenacoach]

Pretty much as I expected. Wallets talk pretty loudly and so take out is going to be a major issue until it is satisfactorily resolved. People want to bet any track they want with any ADW they choose to deal with and have fair and equitable takeouts standardized industry wide.


Now the only problem is getting to that point.

Other issues can be dealt with at the same time and subsequently but those issues are at the core of most of the unrest it would seem.

IF those things can be resloved, then anything can.

[Indulto]

Pretty much as I expected. Wallets talk pretty loudly and so take out is going to be a major issue until it is satisfactorily resolved. People want to bet any track they want with any ADW they choose to deal with and have fair and equitable takeouts standardized industry wide.


Now the only problem is getting to that point.

Other issues can be dealt with at the same time and subsequently but those issues are at the core of most of the unrest it would seem.

IF those things can be resloved, then anything can.Takeout may be more of an issue than the poll indicates. It's possible that many responders here already receive rebates, in which case they may have selected non-takeout-related options.

Anybody willing to confirm that hypothesis?

bac,
There hasn't been any public mention of the "steering committee's" activities, and half that group's members have been absent from the last two war room sessions.
Any progress to report?

[cj]

Takeout may be more of an issue than the poll indicates. It's possible that many responders here already receive rebates, in which case they may have selected non-takeout-related options.

Anybody willing to confirm that hypothesis?

bac,
There hasn't been any public mention of the "steering committee's" activities, and half that group's members have been absent from the last two war room sessions.
Any progress to report?

I'm receiving a rebate. My choice, however, is still lower and equal takeouts for all.

[Indulto]

I'm receiving a rebate. My choice, however, is still lower and equal takeouts for all.Thanks cj,
And thanks for voting , also.

[raybo]

Is there any way to run a poll where everyone places the choices in order of importance, say 10 pts. for most important, 9 pts for 2nd most important, etc. then you could total each choice and use that total as the guide for determining relative importance? That way everyone would be able to participate in the placement of weight for all the choices.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry, there is not.

[cj]

Sorry, there is not.

Start 10 polls...

10 point poll
9 point poll
8 point poll
7 point poll
etc...

So, you think option 1 is most important, vote for it in the 10 point poll. If you then think option 6 is next, vote for it in the 9 point poll, and so on.

[RichieP]

Start 10 polls...

10 point poll
9 point poll
8 point poll
7 point poll
etc...

So, you think option 1 is most important, vote for it in the 10 point poll. If you then think option 6 is next, vote for it in the 9 point poll, and so on.

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp: That's how to do it!