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tribecaagent
06-20-2008, 02:37 AM
Very interesting article from Jon White.

He ranks his "top 100" of all time and asks where Curlin belongs.

http://www.xpressbet.com/columns.aspx?view=880&author=JonWhite

Curlin reminds me so much of Skip Away.

A couple of things about this list though. I've looked at it a number of times and I can't find Ghostzapper. No Ghostzapper?

Another horse who never gets any respect is Awesome Again.

He's got Silver Charm at #63 & Lure at #85. While they were both super-nice horses, Ghostzapper and Awesome Again were faster and more versatile.

PaceAdvantage
06-20-2008, 04:00 AM
Holy Bull only #64? Oh, how people forget....:lol:

eastie
06-20-2008, 04:26 AM
Forego was a nice horse who carried the "stove" many times, but to have him ahead of the Bid, Seattle Slew Affirmed and Cigar is a bit of a stretch.

Tom
06-20-2008, 08:15 AM
I put Forego in the top 10 easily. He did it year after year the hard way - from waaaaaay back.

classhandicapper
06-20-2008, 08:24 AM
I think Kelso is too high, but I never saw him run. I suspect he was one of those horses whose ocassional peak races left an impression that enhanced his reputation beyond his typical level of performance.

Forego probably belongs in the top 10 if you believe in the standard weight formulas. If not, he belongs in the top 20 anyway. I can't rank him ahead of Slew or Bid though. Something is not right somewhere.

Stevie Belmont
06-20-2008, 10:58 AM
I hate any type of rankings for athletes and or horses...

Curlin is on the cusp of being an all-time great though...What number? Thats for the pundits.

ghostyapper
06-20-2008, 11:01 AM
My biggest gripe with that list is cigar over alydar? Not on this planet

KirisClown
06-20-2008, 11:05 AM
Holy Bull only #64? Oh, how people forget....:lol:

The entire "top 100" is tainted due to that... Silver Charm was better than the Bull???? :bang:

RobinFromIreland
06-20-2008, 12:41 PM
I think Invasor is still the most underrated of the last 15 years.

tribecaagent
06-20-2008, 01:24 PM
I hate any type of rankings for athletes and or horses...

Curlin is on the cusp of being an all-time great though...What number? Thats for the pundits.

Why, Stevie, Why???

How can you HATE this kind of stuff? You got one guy saying Kelso is too high on the list, but he never saw him run. Another guy who thinks a horse that ran second in all three triple crown races is better than a horse that won 19 in-a-row. Finally, RobinFromIreland (Denis of Cork's cousin) feels Invasor should crack the top 100.

No disrespect to anybody's opinion. I just love this sort of stuff.

whyhorseofcourse
06-20-2008, 01:47 PM
I think lava man should be on that list?

46zilzal
06-20-2008, 01:58 PM
Periodically I hear this non-historical perspective malarkey.

BEST of ALL TIME list fail to even consider these: Domino, Sysonby, Tom Fool, Buckpasser, Ten Brock, Khaled, Grey Lag, Gallant Man, Sword Dancer, John P. Grier, Exterminator, Busher, Bull Lea, Cicada, Black Toney, Broomstick, Bimelech, Davona Dale, the undefeated Colin, Coaltown etc. etc.

There is no historical perspective to any list like this.

Have this one do well in the Arc and he can be discussed amongst the best of all time. He is heading that way, but has not arrived yet.

tribecaagent
06-20-2008, 02:28 PM
Periodically I hear this non-historical perspective malarkey.

BEST of ALL TIME list fail to even consider these: Domino, Sysonby, Tom Fool, Buckpasser, Ten Brock, Khaled, Grey Lag, Gallant Man, Sword Dancer, John P. Grier, Exterminator, Busher, Bull Lea, Cicada, Black Toney, Broomstick, Bimelech, Davona Dale, the undefeated Colin, Coaltown etc. etc.

There is no historical perspective to any list like this.

Have this one do well in the Arc and he can be discussed amongst the best of all time. He is heading that way, but has not arrived yet.

Zil, my post was about Jon White's article that I attached.

Several of these are on his list.

46zilzal
06-20-2008, 02:29 PM
Zil, my post was about Jon White's article that I attached.

Several of these are on his list.
I continually get a "hoot" out of folks who think greatness is the strict domain of the last half of the twentieth century that's all.

Eclipse: never beaten.

Cratos
06-20-2008, 02:33 PM
I think Kelso is too high, but I never saw him run. I suspect he was one of those horses whose ocassional peak races left an impression that enhanced his reputation beyond his typical level of performance.

Forego probably belongs in the top 10 if you believe in the standard weight formulas. If not, he belongs in the top 20 anyway. I can't rank him ahead of Slew or Bid though. Something is not right somewhere.

Kelso was retired just as I came into this game, but his name and exploits was plastered everywhere on the New York racing scene because at the time it was Kelso and Buckpasser who ruled supreme in New York with the two soon to be greats in Damascus and Dr. Fager waiting to take their places.

If you didn’t see Kelso, you should have because there is not a top ten list of great racehorses of any time or anyplace that he should be left off.

46zilzal
06-20-2008, 02:35 PM
If you didn’t see Kelso, you should have because there is not a top ten list of great racehorses of any time or anyplace that he should be left off.
NO list is complete without the great geldings: Kelso, Forego, John Henry, Exterminator.

Cratos
06-20-2008, 02:46 PM
Forego was a nice horse who carried the "stove" many times, but to have him ahead of the Bid, Seattle Slew Affirmed and Cigar is a bit of a stretch.

If a horse was ever foaled at the wrong time it was Forego who was born in 1970 and guess whom else was born that year? You got it right, the phenomenal Secretariat and the very excellent race mare in Dahlia.

I could write pages about Forego because if Secretariat was as Eddie Sweat put it: “he was the mostest of the most,” Forego was whatever was left of the “most.” Forego belong on any top ten list and not for toting weight, but for being a class performer as he won sprint, handicap and horse-of-the-year titles during his illustrious career.

jognlope
06-20-2008, 02:55 PM
I remember my Dad and Mom were not big racing fans, but they always talked about Kelso (I was still watching cartoons).

Cratos
06-20-2008, 03:07 PM
Very interesting article from Jon White.

He ranks his "top 100" of all time and asks where Curlin belongs.

http://www.xpressbet.com/columns.aspx?view=880&author=JonWhite

Curlin reminds me so much of Skip Away.

A couple of things about this list though. I've looked at it a number of times and I can't find Ghostzapper. No Ghostzapper?

Another horse who never gets any respect is Awesome Again.

He's got Silver Charm at #63 & Lure at #85. While they were both super-nice horses, Ghostzapper and Awesome Again were faster and more versatile.

If you look in the archives on the PA website you will see that I asked the question whether Curlin was a “freak” before the 2007 KY Derby and picked him to win the Derby.

I had become a fan of Curlin because not since Seattle Slew had I a seen horse so dominant and with size and an incredible stride.

Therefore to say he belongs in the top 100 of all time I would vote yes, but near the bottom (in the eighties or low nineties). However if he goes on to become as good on the turf and especially if he wins or runs well in the Arc he would jump all the way to the top ten on my list. The major factor against Curlin at this point in his career is lack of competition. If Invasor had been in the 2007 BC Classic or if Street Sense and Hard Spun had been allowed to continue their careers with Curlin winning against them this conversation would be a no brainer.”

By the way and in all due respect, the comparison should be Forego, not Skip Away.

tribecaagent
06-20-2008, 05:42 PM
Cratos,

I don't remember Forego too well. I'm a young 37.

"IF" (a big one) Curlin takes to the grass and wins the Arc, he becomes my #1. Can you imagine that? Wow! That's a serious racehorse.
You mentioned Invasor and the "what if's". There's several of those. How about Dubai Millenium?

Cratos
06-20-2008, 07:52 PM
Cratos,

I don't remember Forego too well. I'm a young 37.

"IF" (a big one) Curlin takes to the grass and wins the Arc, he becomes my #1. Can you imagine that? Wow! That's a serious racehorse.
You mentioned Invasor and the "what if's". There's several of those. How about Dubai Millenium?

I do understand, youth does have its advantages. Dubai Millennium was a very good horse and will be on many people (including mine) short list as one of the very best. I was somewhat attached to him because his sire, Seeking The Gold was a favorite of mine.

DrugS
06-20-2008, 11:40 PM
I like the job John White does a lot - but that list is pure bunk.

He's got all of 1 horse in the top 100 from this decade.

I want to see Jerry Brown's all-time top 100 list - he would have about 84 horses from the last five years on it.

tribecaagent
06-21-2008, 06:20 AM
I like the job John White does a lot - but that list is pure bunk.

He's got all of 1 horse in the top 100 from this decade.

I want to see Jerry Brown's all-time top 100 list - he would have about 84 horses from the last five years on it.

How can White have Easy Goer at #34? Think about that. Easy Goer the 34th best racehorse of all time? Boy, was/is he overated.

ghostyapper
06-21-2008, 09:24 AM
How can White have Easy Goer at #34? Think about that. Easy Goer the 34th best racehorse of all time? Boy, was/is he overated.

Yea I guess winning almost every gr1 in ny for the year isn't that impressive.

foregoforever
06-21-2008, 10:11 AM
How can White have Easy Goer at #34? Think about that. Easy Goer the 34th best racehorse of all time? Boy, was/is he overated.

Because it's NOT WHITE'S LIST!!! Read the three paragraphs above the list. It's Bloodhorse's top 100 thoroughbreds of the 20th century, compiled by a panel and published around 2000 and much talked about ever since.

That's also why there aren't any horses from this decade on it.

eastie
06-21-2008, 10:37 AM
you' re full of good points...how about a winner today as a bonus. something in the 10-1 area would be nice.

Tom
06-21-2008, 10:46 AM
Cratos,

I don't remember Forego too well. I'm a young 37.

"IF" (a big one) Curlin takes to the grass and wins the Arc, he becomes my #1. Can you imagine that? Wow! That's a serious racehorse.
You mentioned Invasor and the "what if's". There's several of those. How about Dubai Millenium?

Forego was a treat to watch - an event whenever he ran. I used to scen the entries every Saturday to see if the Big Guy was running. His first start of each year marked the start of Horseracing season.
Forego and Secretariat ( and our local hero Mountain Man) stand out to me head and shoulders above all others - pure excitement an anticipation of thier big moves. Curlin, Cigar, Invasor....nice horses, but not one of them ever came close to the pure entertainment aspect of the big three. Sec for being Ssec, and the toher two for you never knew if they were going to win until the hit the wire....always looking impossible then getting it done.
Curlin is just, well, a very boring horse to watch. The Arc would be different....go for it.

tribecaagent
06-21-2008, 08:23 PM
Yea I guess winning almost every gr1 in ny for the year isn't that impressive.

Hey Ghosty,

I strongly advise you to visit youtube and use the keyword Easy Goer.

If you think sitting perfect trips behind the likes of Clever Trevor, Roi Danzig, Le Voyageur, Cryptoclearence, Slew City Slew, and Forever Silver are the ingredients of an all time great, then I must be doing something wrong.

Every single time Easy Goer was in a "pressure situation", he folded like a cheap suit:

1) Breeders Cup Juvenile - second
2) Kentucky Derby - second
3) Preakness - second
4) Met Mile - third
5) Breeders Cup Classic - second

The great ones win when EVERONE is looking, not when NOBODY cares.

tmh
06-21-2008, 09:23 PM
i agree, but one horse that will always stick out as a horse born the wrong year it has to be sham. poor horse had no chance, and remember when they measured secretariats heart it was the biggest on record, second, you guessed it sham.

Cratos
06-21-2008, 09:28 PM
Hey Ghosty,

I strongly advise you to visit youtube and use the keyword Easy Goer.

If you think sitting perfect trips behind the likes of Clever Trevor, Roi Danzig, Le Voyageur, Cryptoclearence, Slew City Slew, and Forever Silver are the ingredients of an all time great, then I must be doing something wrong.

Every single time Easy Goer was in a "pressure situation", he folded like a cheap suit:

1) Breeders Cup Juvenile - second
2) Kentucky Derby - second
3) Preakness - second
4) Met Mile - third
5) Breeders Cup Classic - second

The great ones win when EVERONE is looking, not when NOBODY cares.

Folded like a cheap suit? I don’t think so, because Easy Goer danced every dance during his career and was beaten by the better horse in Sunday Silence. Easy Goer never missed hitting the board in any of his career starts while winning 14 of his 20 career races. Take Sunday Silence out of the picture and he would have 3 additional wins, but as I said Sunday Silence was the better horse.

However against older horses as a 3yo Easy Goer ran against some of the best older horses of his day 4 times and won 3. His only lost as a 3yo against older horses was to Sunday Silence also a 3yo by a neck in track record time in the 1989 Breeder Classic at Gulfstream Park.

What I find really unique about Easy Goer is that he ran in stakes races 15 times during his career with 14 of those stakes being at the G1 stakes level and he won 10 of the G1 stakes races.

If he was a “cheap suit” Brooks Brothers should go out of business.

cj
06-21-2008, 09:33 PM
When Easy Goer was winning his races, G1s other than the Breeder's Cup still carried a lot of prestige. That has changed.

As to Curlin, clearly he is a top 100 horse in my mind.

tribecaagent
06-21-2008, 09:46 PM
Folded like a cheap suit? I don’t think so, because Easy Goer danced every dance during his career and was beaten by the better horse in Sunday Silence. Easy Goer never missed hitting the board in any of his career starts while winning 14 of his 20 career races. Take Sunday Silence out of the picture and he would have 3 additional wins, but as I said Sunday Silence was the better horse.

However against older horses as a 3yo Easy Goer ran against some of the best older horses of his day 4 times and won 3. His only lost as a 3yo against older horses was to Sunday Silence also a 3yo by a neck in track record time in the 1989 Breeder Classic at Gulfstream Park.

What I find really unique about Easy Goer is that he ran in stakes races 15 times during his career with 14 of those stakes being at the G1 stakes level and he won 10 of the G1 stakes races.

If he was a “cheap suit” Brooks Brothers should go out of business.


Cratos,

Take a look at this race and you tell me Easy Goer was an all time great. He couldn't catch Housebuster (a confirmed sprinter going 8 furlongs) for second.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S2wmXP3PiWE

Please.

Hank
06-21-2008, 11:55 PM
Folded like a cheap suit? I don’t think so, because Easy Goer danced every dance during his career and was beaten by the better horse in Sunday Silence. Easy Goer never missed hitting the board in any of his career starts while winning 14 of his 20 career races. Take Sunday Silence out of the picture and he would have 3 additional wins, but as I said Sunday Silence was the better horse.

However against older horses as a 3yo Easy Goer ran against some of the best older horses of his day 4 times and won 3. His only lost as a 3yo against older horses was to Sunday Silence also a 3yo by a neck in track record time in the 1989 Breeder Classic at Gulfstream Park.

What I find really unique about Easy Goer is that he ran in stakes races 15 times during his career with 14 of those stakes being at the G1 stakes level and he won 10 of the G1 stakes races.

If he was a “cheap suit” Brooks Brothers should go out of business.

Although we'll never know I belive If Easy goer was in the Bald Eagle's barn and Sunday in shug's the result of their rivalry may have gone the other way.
As to the main point Easy Goer was without question one of the most powerful horses our sport has seen.

ghostyapper
06-22-2008, 12:00 AM
Hey Ghosty,

I strongly advise you to visit youtube and use the keyword Easy Goer.

If you think sitting perfect trips behind the likes of Clever Trevor, Roi Danzig, Le Voyageur, Cryptoclearence, Slew City Slew, and Forever Silver are the ingredients of an all time great, then I must be doing something wrong.

Every single time Easy Goer was in a "pressure situation", he folded like a cheap suit:

1) Breeders Cup Juvenile - second
2) Kentucky Derby - second
3) Preakness - second
4) Met Mile - third
5) Breeders Cup Classic - second

The great ones win when EVERONE is looking, not when NOBODY cares.

No doubt the winner for most idiotic post the year, end the voting now. You foolishly categorize a "pressure situation" by just listing every race that he didn't win. Wow very creative.

Of course this little race called the Belmont stakes blow's your elementary school idea to pieces. You know the race where Day finally gave the horse a good ride and he blew Sunday Silence's doors off by 8. But I guess that would be a race categorized by you as "nobody cares". I mean it only had a triple crown on the line why would anybody pay attention to that race?

And you are right he did fold like a "cheap suit" in the classic. He was only moving like a freight train at the 8th pole and missed sunday silence by 1-2 jumps. 15 yards past the wire he was 2 lengths ahead of him. Definitely signs of a horse folding like a cheap suit.

Maybe its time to try a different game because you obviously know NOTHING about this one.

ghostyapper
06-22-2008, 12:09 AM
Cratos,

Take a look at this race and you tell me Easy Goer was an all time great. He couldn't catch Housebuster (a confirmed sprinter going 8 furlongs) for second.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S2wmXP3PiWE

Please.

Yea that's almost as bad as this one

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ik9U4JVrr_Q

Oops. Time to rethink

tribecaagent
06-22-2008, 12:18 AM
No doubt the winner for most idiotic post the year, end the voting now. You foolishly categorize a "pressure situation" by just listing every race that he didn't win. Wow very creative.

Of course this little race called the Belmont stakes blow's your elementary school idea to pieces. You know the race where Day finally gave the horse a good ride and he blew Sunday Silence's doors off by 8. But I guess that would be a race categorized by you as "nobody cares". I mean it only had a triple crown on the line why would anybody pay attention to that race?

And you are right he did fold like a "cheap suit" in the classic. He was only moving like a freight train at the 8th pole and missed sunday silence by 1-2 jumps. 15 yards past the wire he was 2 lengths ahead of him. Definitely signs of a horse folding like a cheap suit.

Maybe its time to try a different game because you obviously know NOTHING about this one.

Ghost,

Obviously, you didn't go and actually WATCH the races. After THE GREAT SUNDAY SILENCE, who did easy goer beat? Le Voyageur? Learn the game.

"He was moving like a freight train" in EVERY race! Blah, Blah Blah!
Easy Goer was a bum.Period.

Cratos
06-22-2008, 12:36 AM
Cratos,

Take a look at this race and you tell me Easy Goer was an all time great. He couldn't catch Housebuster (a confirmed sprinter going 8 furlongs) for second.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S2wmXP3PiWE

Please.

I don’t know if you were there at Belmont in 1990 for the running of the Met Mile, but I was and in all due respect I don’t need YouTube to show me something that I saw in person.

In the Met Mile, Easy Goer was saddled with 127 pounds compared to Housebuster’s 113 pound load. Housebuster broke early and led every step of the race until the final eighth when he was caught by Criminal Type (an Alydar colt like Easy Goer) who got a perfect pocket trip ride from Jose Santos to get up at the wire. The race went in very fast fractions as I recall with Easy Goer gaining on the leaders with every stride at the end.

Also I don’t know if you know it, but Easy Goer had chronic pain in his knees. That is not an excuse for any of his losses, but it is to say that he performed well under adverse conditions.

tribecaagent
06-22-2008, 12:37 AM
No doubt the winner for most idiotic post the year, end the voting now. You foolishly categorize a "pressure situation" by just listing every race that he didn't win. Wow very creative.

Of course this little race called the Belmont stakes blow's your elementary school idea to pieces. You know the race where Day finally gave the horse a good ride and he blew Sunday Silence's doors off by 8. But I guess that would be a race categorized by you as "nobody cares". I mean it only had a triple crown on the line why would anybody pay attention to that race?

And you are right he did fold like a "cheap suit" in the classic. He was only moving like a freight train at the 8th pole and missed sunday silence by 1-2 jumps. 15 yards past the wire he was 2 lengths ahead of him. Definitely signs of a horse folding like a cheap suit.

Maybe its time to try a different game because you obviously know NOTHING about this one.


Hey Ghost,

Isn't it funny that these "pressure situations" Easy Goer didn't win begin with "Breeders Cup" & "Kentucky Derby" & "Metropolitan Mile". They're REAL races for REAL RACEHORSES. The Belmont fell in his lap because "Patient" Pat Day FINALLY gave him a good ride? Oh, O.K. How about Sunday Silence was spent?

Going through life blaming a jockey is no way to go through life, son.

Remember one thing son, Easy Goer NEVER won outside of New York.

tribecaagent
06-22-2008, 12:48 AM
I don’t know if you were there at Belmont in 1990 for the running of the Met Mile, but I was and in all due respect I don’t need YouTube to show me something that I saw in person.

In the Met Mile, Easy Goer was saddled with 127 pounds compared to Housebuster’s 113 pound load. Housebuster broke early and led every step of the race until the final eighth when he was caught by Criminal Type (an Alydar colt like Easy Goer) who got a perfect pocket trip ride from Jose Santos to get up at the wire. The race went in very fast fractions as I recall with Easy Goer gaining on the leaders with every stride at the end.

Also I don’t know if you know it, but Easy Goer had chronic pain in his knees. That is not an excuse for any of his losses, but it is to say that he performed well under adverse conditions.

Cratos,

I expected a whole lot better from you.

Easy Goer gaining? Please, go and watch the race.

Chronic pain?

This is another example of giving this horse an excuse. WHY? Why can't intelligent, smart, sharp handicappers see this horse for what he was?

An above average horse that couldn't handle turns and was a cut BELOW the top rung.

ghostyapper
06-22-2008, 01:04 AM
Hey Ghost,

Isn't it funny that these "pressure situations" Easy Goer didn't win begin with "Breeders Cup" & "Kentucky Derby" & "Metropolitan Mile". They're REAL races for REAL RACEHORSES. The Belmont fell in his lap because "Patient" Pat Day FINALLY gave him a good ride? Oh, O.K. How about Sunday Silence was spent?

Going through life blaming a jockey is no way to go through life, son.

Remember one thing son, Easy Goer NEVER won outside of New York.

You are so misinformed and biased its comical. You complain about easy goer's valid excuses like awful jockey rides then you throw out a weak "sunday silence was spent" excuse. Spent from what? The same 5 races for the year that easy goer had run? For the classic easy goer had run 4 races since august while sunday silence ran 2. I guess easy goer lost the bc because he "was spent" as you put it?

I also love your selective judging that the Met Mile is a "real race" when talking about the greatest horses while the whitney, woodward, wood, travers, belmont, and jcgc are small time races.

For all I know you might be an intelligent handicapper (I highly doubt it) but on this subject you are so lost that you can't be saved. Just quit it and you will save yourself further ridicule.

tribecaagent
06-22-2008, 01:29 AM
You are so misinformed and biased its comical. You complain about easy goer's valid excuses like awful jockey rides then you throw out a weak "sunday silence was spent" excuse. Spent from what? The same 5 races for the year that easy goer had run? For the classic easy goer had run 4 races since august while sunday silence ran 2. I guess easy goer lost the bc because he "was spent" as you put it?

I also love your selective judging that the Met Mile is a "real race" when talking about the greatest horses while the whitney, woodward, wood, travers, belmont, and jcgc are small time races.

For all I know you might be an intelligent handicapper (I highly doubt it) but on this subject you are so lost that you can't be saved. Just quit it and you will save yourself further ridicule.

The Whitney, Woodard, Wood, etc. ALL had BELOW par competition. On top of that, Easy Goer had picture perfect trips in ALL of em".

If I had to guess, you are like 19, right? It's obvious, you have no clue as to the level of competition compared to ANY other year.

Do you even recall Criminal Type? Trust me, no superstar. However, he handled Easy Goer with ease in the Met.

If your going back to his 3year old races, Wood, Gotham, etc. O.K. Just remember one thing, those ractracks were hard, sealed, and watered down for extra fast times. Artificial speed figures. Do you know anything about making your own figures?

Cratos
06-22-2008, 01:32 AM
Cratos,

I expected a whole lot better from you.

Easy Goer gaining? He hung like Pam Anderson's tit. Please, go and watch the race.

Chronic pain?

This is another example of giving this horse an excuse. WHY? Why can't intelligent, smart, sharp handicappers see this horse for what he was?

An above average horse that couldn't handle turns and was a cut BELOW the top rung.

Maybe we have a different understanding of the term “hung” in a horse race. My understanding of the term is that a horse will accelerate with a burst of speed and flatten out without catching the leader. In other words its power move took everything it had.

Therefore Easy Goer never flattens out or “hung” in the 1990 Met Mile because he was moving on the leaders at the end of the race. I believe I prefaced my remark about Easy Goer’s chronic knees as not being an excuse.

If you believe that Easy Goer was a cut above the average horse and couldn’t handle turns then please tell me the names of some of those “average” horses which he was a cut above because starting a cut above horse in 14 of his 20 lifetime starts in G1 stakes races and it was just above average would seem to be quite foolish. But you know horseracing better than most.

tribecaagent
06-22-2008, 01:53 AM
Maybe we have a different understanding of the term “hung” in a horse race. My understanding of the term is that a horse will accelerate with a burst of speed and flatten out without catching the leader. In other words its power move took everything it had.

Therefore Easy Goer never flattens out or “hung” in the 1990 Met Mile because he was moving on the leaders at the end of the race. I believe I prefaced my remark about Easy Goer’s chronic knees as not being an excuse.

If you believe that Easy Goer was a cut above the average horse and couldn’t handle turns then please tell me the names of some of those “average” horses which he was a cut above because starting a cut above horse in 14 of his 20 lifetime starts in G1 stakes races and it was just above average would seem to be quite foolish. But you know horseracing better than most.

O.K.

Since its late, I'll give you one horse that loved to run around turns and damn near beat two top three year olds in the Haskell.

Lost Code.

I'll get back to you though, that a good question.

eastie
06-22-2008, 02:49 AM
If a horse was ever foaled at the wrong time it was Forego who was born in 1970 and guess whom else was born that year? You got it right, the phenomenal Secretariat and the very excellent race mare in Dahlia.

I could write pages about Forego because if Secretariat was as Eddie Sweat put it: “he was the mostest of the most,” Forego was whatever was left of the “most.” Forego belong on any top ten list and not for toting weight, but for being a class performer as he won sprint, handicap and horse-of-the-year titles during his illustrious career.

I disagree. Forego was not the horse that Bid was or Seattle Slew or Affirmed , or even Cigar. Great horse, yes. Exciting to watch, you betcha, but top 10 ever....No way.

menifee
06-22-2008, 04:12 AM
Maybe we have a different understanding of the term “hung” in a horse race. My understanding of the term is that a horse will accelerate with a burst of speed and flatten out without catching the leader. In other words its power move took everything it had.

Therefore Easy Goer never flattens out or “hung” in the 1990 Met Mile because he was moving on the leaders at the end of the race. I believe I prefaced my remark about Easy Goer’s chronic knees as not being an excuse.

If you believe that Easy Goer was a cut above the average horse and couldn’t handle turns then please tell me the names of some of those “average” horses which he was a cut above because starting a cut above horse in 14 of his 20 lifetime starts in G1 stakes races and it was just above average would seem to be quite foolish. But you know horseracing better than most.


Easy Goer was not getting to those horses. I just watched the replay. Great horse, but he was not getting to these horses.

Cratos
06-22-2008, 12:15 PM
Easy Goer was not getting to those horses. I just watched the replay. Great horse, but he was not getting to these horses.


I will use the Equibase/DRF chart archives for the 1990 Met Mile which you can also use and calculate the final quarter of the race for Easy Goer, Housebuster, and Criminal Type.

In the 1990 Mile which was run in 1:34.2, the final quarter for each horse was:

Easy Goer = 24.71
Criminal Type = 24.75
Housebuster = 25.03

If this looks like Easy Goer “hanging” then please define the term and explain to me why he wasn’t getting to the leaders. I realize that I am being assumptive, but if the race was run in 1-1/8 miles, I believe we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Cratos
06-22-2008, 12:20 PM
I disagree. Forego was not the horse that Bid was or Seattle Slew or Affirmed , or even Cigar. Great horse, yes. Exciting to watch, you betcha, but top 10 ever....No way.

If you believe that, good

Hank
06-22-2008, 06:39 PM
I disagree. Forego was not the horse that Bid was or Seattle Slew or Affirmed , or even Cigar. Great horse, yes. Exciting to watch, you betcha, but top 10 ever....No way.

Youre joking right....right:rolleyes:

PaceAdvantage
06-22-2008, 08:24 PM
Let's have a debate minus the name calling and the juvenile references....thanks, I knew you guys could handle that.

Oh, and everyone has failed to mention the fact that Sunday Silence had to run without Lasix in the Belmont. That probably had a little something to do with things....

tribecaagent
06-22-2008, 08:31 PM
Let's have a debate minus the name calling and the juvenile references....thanks, I knew you guys could handle that.

Oh, and everyone has failed to mention the fact that Sunday Silence had to run without Lasix in the Belmont. That probably had a little something to do with things....

Well said Pace.

joanied
06-22-2008, 10:41 PM
Let's have a debate minus the name calling and the juvenile references....thanks, I knew you guys could handle that.

Oh, and everyone has failed to mention the fact that Sunday Silence had to run without Lasix in the Belmont. That probably had a little something to do with things....

PA :ThmbUp:

But...about SS and EG...on his home turf...no one was going to beat Easy Goer on that day...even with Lasix. IMO:)
Too bad though, Sunday Silence was a TC horse for sure!!! (I bet 'they' kicked their collective butts about selling that horse to the Japanese)

46zilzal
06-23-2008, 02:52 AM
Oh, and everyone has failed to mention the fact that Sunday Silence had to run without Lasix in the Belmont. That probably had a little something to do with things....
Easy Goer was near to unbeatable at Big Sandy. His aversion to quick starts was negated there.

He was brilliant, and sadly, uneven.

eastie
06-23-2008, 04:43 AM
Youre joking right....right:rolleyes:

I don't remember Forego winning 15 in as row at many different racetracks. I do remember him beating the same retreads in New York so many times that he was being assigned 130 plus pounds every time he ran. Who are some of the stars who he's beaten if he's top 10 ? Proper Bostonian ?

Cratos
06-23-2008, 12:46 PM
I don't remember Forego winning 15 in as row at many different racetracks. I do remember him beating the same retreads in New York so many times that he was being assigned 130 plus pounds every time he ran. Who are some of the stars who he's beaten if he's top 10 ? Proper Bostonian ?

Stop the Music
Ancient Title
Foolish Pleasure
Honest Pleasure
Wajima
Dr. Patches
Key to the Mint
Arbees Boy

There are many more “victims” in the 34 victories of Forego’s illustrious career, but you name horses that were beaten by any of your top choice horses and we can compare lists.

Tom
06-23-2008, 03:52 PM
He beat Honest Pleasure, in the mud, by a nose, when hoplessly beaten in the stetch. That race was my watershed moment with Forego.

Add Mr. Prospector to the list.

joanied
06-23-2008, 04:22 PM
He beat Honest Pleasure, in the mud, by a nose, when hoplessly beaten in the stetch. That race was my watershed moment with Forego.

Add Mr. Prospector to the list.

Mr. P:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Forego hated the mud...which is one more reason to rate him as a top ten...he won on a surface he hated, and at that time, Honest Pleasure was at the top of his game!!

Hank
06-23-2008, 04:32 PM
Mr. P:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Forego hated the mud...which is one more reason to rate him as a top ten...he won on a surface he hated, and at that time, Honest Pleasure was at the top of his game!!

The mighty warrior carried 0ver 130 into battle 24 times and spoted Honest pleasure 18 pounds, and gamely battled back to win on a surface he hated.Cigar carried 130 2 times and defeated the imortals:D 'personal merit?'and Eltish? Like I said you have got to be kidding......right;)

TheGhost
06-23-2008, 05:27 PM
"FOREGO HATED THE MUD"

He won the Marlboro Handicap(G1) in the mud in a time of 2:00 flat. Not bad at all. He closed to finish 3rd in the mud in the Malboro Handicap two years before that.

He won the Woodward Handicap(G1) in the mud.

He ran in the mud his last race and ran bad but I think he was just done career wise. He was retired right after. Might not even mattered if it was a fast track.

Martha farrish Gerry(owner) said his 1976 Marlboro was the best and most exciting race in his career. Forego faded to 8 out of 11 horses on the backstretch and then just turned it on closing stride after stride to catch Honest Pleasure by a head. The race was in the mud.


His mud history: 5 starts. 2 wins. In the money 3 out of 5. Two G1 wins.

Cratos
06-23-2008, 05:41 PM
"FOREGO HATED THE MUD"

He won the Marlboro Handicap(G1) in the mud in a time of 2:00 flat. Not bad at all. He closed to finish 3rd in the mud in the Malboro Handicap two years before that.

He won the Woodward Handicap(G1) in the mud.

He ran in the mud his last race and ran bad but I think he was just done career wise. He was retired right after. Might not even mattered if it was a fast track.

Martha farrish Gerry(owner) said his 1976 Marlboro was the best and most exciting race in his career. Forego faded to 8 out of 11 horses on the backstretch and then just turned it on closing stride after stride to catch Honest Pleasure by a head. The race was in the mud.


His mud history: 5 starts. 2 wins. In the money 3 out of 5. Two G1 wins.


A little known fact about Forego, he could sprint. In March of his 3yo year he ran second to the very speedy Shecky Green who turned in a fast time of 1:20.80 in the Hutcheson at Gulfstream in beating Forego who had a splendid time of 121.34.

joanied
06-23-2008, 07:40 PM
A little known fact about Forego, he could sprint. In March of his 3yo year he ran second to the very speedy Shecky Green who turned in a fast time of 1:20.80 in the Hutcheson at Gulfstream in beating Forego who had a splendid time of 121.34.

Correct me if I am wrong... but he did get an Eclispe award as Sprinter...to go along with the others he garnered.
Shecky Green was Sprint Champion.

Forego :ThmbUp: forever!!!

TheGhost
06-23-2008, 08:03 PM
Correct me if I am wrong... but he did get an Eclispe award as Sprinter...to go along with the others he garnered.
Shecky Green was Sprint Champion.

Forego :ThmbUp: forever!!!


Shecky was a great sprinter. Funny thing I read was that when he ran in the Kentucky Derby,a guy writing about their chances wrote, Shecky Greene-named after the heavy comedian Shecky Greene and come time for the stretch run,he'll be running like him too.:D

yeah Shecky only lasted till the stretch that day. Was just too far for him.

foregoforever
06-23-2008, 08:42 PM
A little known fact about Forego, he could sprint. In March of his 3yo year he ran second to the very speedy Shecky Green who turned in a fast time of 1:20.80 in the Hutcheson at Gulfstream in beating Forego who had a splendid time of 121.34.

I'm sure you already know this, but in his next-to-last race, which was supposed to be a 7f prep for the Suburban, he hooked up with Dr. Patches and ran him down to win. Dr. Patches, by Dr. Fager, went on to share the Sprint Eclipse that year.

A photo of the finish is at http://www.championsgallery.com/forego.htm and I think this is the same photo that's in the clubhouse at Belmont.

Shoemaker never asked him for anything during the race. It was supposed to just be a workout. Forego's legs were so bad that they had to race him into shape, as they just wouldn't stand up to a normal training routine. But when Forego got Dr. Patches in his sights at the top of the stretch, there was no holding him back. The exertion of the race was the last straw for the legs, though, and he was pretty much pulled up in the Suburban, his last race.

I've always thought that the job Ward and Whitely did with Forego was the most remarkable training job ever. The list of his ailments is incredible. Can you imagine what this horse could have done if he'd been anywhere close to sound?

joanied
06-24-2008, 11:08 AM
Shecky was a great sprinter. Funny thing I read was that when he ran in the Kentucky Derby,a guy writing about their chances wrote, Shecky Greene-named after the heavy comedian Shecky Greene and come time for the stretch run,he'll be running like him too.:D

yeah Shecky only lasted till the stretch that day. Was just too far for him.


Yep, it was too far... Shecky was a SPRINT Champion!!

Cratos
06-24-2008, 05:57 PM
Correct me if I am wrong... but he did get an Eclispe award as Sprinter...to go along with the others he garnered.
Shecky Green was Sprint Champion.

Forego :ThmbUp: forever!!!

You are correct, Forego was Sprint Champion once during his career

46zilzal
06-24-2008, 06:06 PM
You are correct, Forego was Sprint Champion once during his career
In one 6 week period this great gelding went LONG, blazed at Saratoga at 7 furlongs, the a few weeks later Long again under top weight.

He won the Met Mile as well as the Brooklyn and Suburban. As the years go by, his accomplishments gain more respect for his pure versatility and tremendous weight carrying abilities.

Cratos
06-24-2008, 06:20 PM
I'm sure you already know this, but in his next-to-last race, which was supposed to be a 7f prep for the Suburban, he hooked up with Dr. Patches and ran him down to win. Dr. Patches, by Dr. Fager, went on to share the Sprint Eclipse that year.

A photo of the finish is at http://www.championsgallery.com/forego.htm and I think this is the same photo that's in the clubhouse at Belmont.

Shoemaker never asked him for anything during the race. It was supposed to just be a workout. Forego's legs were so bad that they had to race him into shape, as they just wouldn't stand up to a normal training routine. But when Forego got Dr. Patches in his sights at the top of the stretch, there was no holding him back. The exertion of the race was the last straw for the legs, though, and he was pretty much pulled up in the Suburban, his last race.

I've always thought that the job Ward and Whitely did with Forego was the most remarkable training job ever. The list of his ailments is incredible. Can you imagine what this horse could have done if he'd been anywhere close to sound?

Thanks for a great post which brings back fond memories and Dr. Patches was no "push over" and he prove that by beating Seattle Slew. Both of Forego’s trainers did a good job with him, but I will always give the nod to the Whiteley-Shoemaker combo over Gustine-Ward primarily because of the age ( he was a 6yo) when Whiteley took over the training and what he did with the horse. 10 wins, 3 seconds, and two thirds in 17 starts including the memorable and electrifying win over Honest Pleasure with Forego toting an unheard of 137 pounds at the time and just missed tying the Belmont track record by 1/5 second in that victory.

joanied
06-24-2008, 07:22 PM
You are correct, Forego was Sprint Champion once during his career

Thanks, cratos...I was too lazy:blush: to look it up, good to know my memory is still workin'!!!

And how many horses have done, or can do, what :ThmbUp: Forego did...short, long, mud, bad legs, wieghts no trainer would go for today...he did it all... and 3 Horse of the Year awards...no one should keep this truly incredible champion off any list!!!

classhandicapper
06-25-2008, 07:44 PM
I have to put in 2 cents on the Easy Goer debate. He was obviously an extremely talented horse, but his record does OVERSTATE his credentials. The group of older Grade 1 horses he was beating up on was among the worst groups of older Grade 1 horses I had ever seen in my life up to that point. In those days Grade 1 races tended to be less diluted, but he was beating up on horses and fields that look a lot like the fields we see today where there often isn't a legitmate Grade 1 horse in the race let alone several very fast multiple Grade 1 winners like years ago.

ghostyapper
06-25-2008, 08:27 PM
I have to put in 2 cents on the Easy Goer debate. He was obviously an extremely talented horse, but his record does OVERSTATE his credentials. The group of older Grade 1 horses he was beating up on was among the worst groups of older Grade 1 horses I had ever seen in my life up to that point. In those days Grade 1 races tended to be less diluted, but he was beating up on horses and fields that look a lot like the fields we see today where there often isn't a legitmate Grade 1 horse in the race let alone several very fast multiple Grade 1 winners like years ago.

But in addition to all his G1 wins, his time's were fantastic. How many horses in history could run a 1.32.4 mile and a 2.26 mile and 1/2? His time in the travers is 2nd only to general assembly in the last 30 years, his whitney the 3rd fastest in the last 30 years. He was an all time great, don't take that away from him because some of his fields he toyed with were weak.

cj
06-25-2008, 08:45 PM
It is tough to be considered an all time great when the horse wasn't even the greatest in his crop.

foregoforever
06-25-2008, 09:08 PM
It is tough to be considered an all time great when the horse wasn't even the greatest in his crop.

If John Henry were still around, he'd take a bite out of you for saying that. So would Forego, Alydar, Damascus and Nashua.

ghostyapper
06-25-2008, 10:52 PM
It is tough to be considered an all time great when the horse wasn't even the greatest in his crop.

Not only is your premise wrong (see post by foregoforever) but its open for debate who was the best colt from that crop.

cj
06-25-2008, 11:18 PM
Not only is your premise wrong (see post by foregoforever) but its open for debate who was the best colt from that crop.
I said tough, not impossible. The horses that did go on to become greats did so because they stuck around long enough to overshadow there losses. Easy Goer never really did that in my opinion.

It is really hard to try to say Easy Goer was better than Sunday Silence. He lost to him 3 of 4 times. The one time he won was on the home track of Easy Goer at a distance nobody really cares about any more, and that was true even then.

It was really some crop. Everybody was shocked when SS lost to Prized, who then merely stepped up and won the BC Turf in his first career turf start!

ghostyapper
06-26-2008, 10:34 AM
It is really hard to try to say Easy Goer was better than Sunday Silence. He lost to him 3 of 4 times. The one time he won was on the home track of Easy Goer at a distance nobody really cares about any more, and that was true even then.


We both know that race was over at the quarter pole, distance had no factor. In 4 races, sunday silence won the derby 2.5, easy goer won the belmont by 8, and the other 2 were photo's. I don't see this as conclusive evidence that easy goer was not the best colt from his crop. It is open for debate.

cj
06-26-2008, 10:39 AM
3 of 4 is 3 of 4 no matter how you want to spin it. Isn't winning close ones the true mark of a champion?

ghostyapper
06-26-2008, 10:48 AM
3 of 4 is 3 of 4 no matter how you want to spin it. Isn't winning close ones the true mark of a champion?

Its always funny to see people make bogus excuses for sunday silence in the belmont (tired, distance) yet they call it spin when the jockey's awful rides are pointed out in 2 races where the horses were seperated by less than half a length.

By the way how is secretariats record when it comes to "close ones"?

ghostyapper
06-26-2008, 10:51 AM
but he was beating up on horses and fields that look a lot like the fields we see today where there often isn't a legitmate Grade 1 horse in the race let alone several very fast multiple Grade 1 winners like years ago.

Cryptoclearance was a very talented horse. He won g1's at 3, 4, and 5 in addition to placing in all 3 legs of the tc.

ryesteve
06-26-2008, 10:57 AM
Isn't winning close ones the true mark of a champion?Could be... on the other hand, losing the close ones could be the mark of a jockey who kept getting outridden.

Cratos
06-26-2008, 11:26 AM
It is very strange to me to understand the dichotomy of the recent arguments that were given on PA about past horses. Horses like Smarty Jones and Big Brown during their TC runs were being talked about as the second comings of Secretariat and Man O’War while Forego and Easy Goer whose resumes bespeaks with a documented and demonstrated history of all that you would want in a thoroughbred racehorse is being characterized as “over-rated."

Very, very strange logic

cj
06-26-2008, 11:29 AM
It is very strange to me to understand the dichotomy of the recent arguments that were given on PA about past horses. Horses like Smarty Jones and Big Brown during their TC runs were being talked about as the second comings of Secretariat and Man O’War while Forego and Easy Goer whose resumes bespeaks with a documented and demonstrated history of all that you would want in a thoroughbred racehorse is being characterized as “over-rated."

Very, very strange logic

Were the same people making those arguments?

Cratos
06-26-2008, 11:56 AM
Were the same people making those arguments?

Whether they were the same posters or different posters it is irrelevant because I am relating more to the gist of the argument that was perpetuated by the posters which is well documented in the PA archives.

cj
06-26-2008, 11:59 AM
Well, I don't think a lot of people were proclaiming Big Brown as some great horse. Of course there were some, just like other boards on the net.

It doesn't do any good to generalize the opinion of a group of thousands.

Cratos
06-26-2008, 01:25 PM
Well, I don't think a lot of people were proclaiming Big Brown as some great horse. Of course there were some, just like other boards on the net.

It doesn't do any good to generalize the opinion of a group of thousands.


Please keep my post in context, there wasn’t any generalization. I never said “all” or “some” when referring to posters’ responses. I simply retorted to the gist of the arguments that were made.