Which PP's do you use?

[SupersRFun]

Question:

Which PP's do you use and why? I use DRF, because thats the one I fully understand. I have looked at the equibase stuff too.

Which is the best? I know its probably subjective, but can someone in the know tell me which is better and why? Or are they all pretty much the same? What does everyone think?

I only play Hollywood and Goldengate if it matters.

Thanks everyone

[ghostyapper]

I like brisnet the best. They add notes for each horse and all kinds of useful numbers on the last page like each horses e1/e2 etc

[wegoosewe]

i have used drf,trackmaster,bris.. They each have there own pros and cons.. I like the stats(angles) that bris gives you.. But i dont trust there pace and speed figures seems like horses bounce every other race. Trackmaster kinda the same as bris but there pace and speed figures are more reliable then bris.. but i like drf in use with my othere products i use.. its more of a personal preference in which to use.. I had the hardest time making the switch from drf to bris... but back with the drf..

love the northern cal tracks but where i pick my copy of the drf up the only offer the AM edition so i dont play there as much as i would like to

[46zilzal]

Look for past performances that let you filter: see all lines on off tracks, all line in sprints, turf or dirt routes. Allows better comparisons.

[cmoore]

I use the tsn procap data files..I print out my pps using the pp generator. I blend the workouts ( meaning the workouts are between races, not at the bottom), NO ML Odds. I only go 5 races back for each horse in all races except mdns. Any races over 180 days back are in grey ink..

[iRNA]

Lots work but worth it.

[King Ritchie]

I get my PP's from somewhere in the Far East. I believe they take the best of all the vendors and publish their own at a fraction of the cost.

[so.cal.fan]

I've used DRF for over 40 years, but understand Bris are actually better.
I guess we stick with what we get used to.
I agree with 46Z......are you talking Formulater 46?

[exiles]

DRF far superior to BRIS as far as speed and pace figures are concerned.

[Dan Montilion]

Lots work but worth it. Could you expound on your approach.

[Premier Turf Club]

I use DRF Formulator. I have always preferred the DRF layout and fonts. Dabbled with BRIS for awhile and they are very good but I just found them harder to read.

I never minded paying a couple of bucks for a card of PP's.

[jasperson]

Question:

Which PP's do you use and why? I use DRF, because thats the one I fully understand. I have looked at the equibase stuff too.

Which is the best? I know its probably subjective, but can someone in the know tell me which is better and why? Or are they all pretty much the same? What does everyone think?

I only play Hollywood and Goldengate if it matters.

Thanks everyone
I have used them all and wouldn't pick one over the other, but I use tsn because it is the cheapest.

[cmoore]

I have used them all and wouldn't pick one over the other, but I use tsn because it is the cheapest.

I started with Brisnet ultimate pps. Then I messed around with Brisnets pp generator. Then discoverd tsn and the package deal. I'll never go back to bris. It seems like the ultimates have a lot of info but it can be too much at times..I just try to make it simple. TSN works for me..

[MNslappy]

I use Bris Ultimates because I'm in love with the track bias stats and other stuff on the last data page. It does worry me how often I hear people talking about how bad their pace figures are though.

[fmhealth]

After 49 years of 'capping I've given up on all the various "forms". Don't even use a track program. Strickly a "Physicality" 'capper now. Have a greater strike rate at higher prices. Still losing but at a far lower level. Also, the hours of preparation & added costs have now been eliminated. Works best at live meets but also an effective strategy on simo's when you can get a reasonable look in the paddock. No look, no bet. This rule alone has saved me a considerable sum of money.

[ranchwest]

I download the ProCaps files off the monthly plan. Sometimes I use the TSN generator and then I have 4 or 5 different formats I've developed. Some of mine have a lot of data, some have condensed data. If I want to check out data that's not on one, I pull up another one. I've also got a number of custom reports.

[hoovesupsideyourhe]

drf /tgs / video/ all are good .......together they are deadly

[Fingal]

I download the comma deleated file from TSN ( only .50 each track ), run it through a program to get my contenders & then print out the PPs using their free custom PP generator with my filters in place. :cool:

[KMS]

Trackmaster Flashnet. Cheap and has the information I need.

[coastkid]

DRF

[HEY DUDE]

I like both DRF and BRIS. However, I prefer BRIS ULTIMATE. I think the last page of data is usefull. Plus I like the way they track the BIAS.

[SupersRFun]

Looks like everyone has there own personal likes on this one. I'll try TSN or BRIS a couple of times. They are cheaper anyway.

I notice that TSN is missing "prime power ranking" or something like that, is that figure that useful?

I didn't realize that the Beyer numbers and speed numbers of Bris would be different on the same days form. Are the numbers that different? Do they have different meanings? If not, why would they be different? Is pace info very reliable? Sorry for all the newb questions....

[BombsAway Bob]

I remember when the Racing Form was in the large, USA Today-size format.
I Always use DRF for NYRA & So.Cal. cards. FREE PP's from TwinSpires & now TVG allow me to peruse small tracks at no cost. TVG's PP's are the WORST, by far.
I like to get FREE T.S. PP's on Monday for Wednesday NYRA/Suffolk cards, giving me an early idea of the races. Then Wednesday, Leominster News goes to NY & Picks up Wed/Thur. DRF's to sell, & I'll buy both. It sucks not being able to get DRF's in advance on Tuesdays & Thursdays, but the NEWSGUY says it's not worth going to get them more than 3 times a week @ $4 a gallon.! (He used the same argument @ $3, so I have NO SHOT now!).
I also scoop up the FREE Thoro-Graph charts they offer between X-Mas & New Years. Other than 'The Great Race Place', racing's pretty poor quality then, & Thoro-Graph sometimes ferrets out Nice Prices for the Holidays!

[cmoore]

Looks like everyone has there own personal likes on this one. I'll try TSN or BRIS a couple of times. They are cheaper anyway.

I notice that TSN is missing "prime power ranking" or something like that, is that figure that useful?

I didn't realize that the Beyer numbers and speed numbers of Bris would be different on the same days form. Are the numbers that different? Do they have different meanings? If not, why would they be different? Is pace info very reliable? Sorry for all the newb questions....

tsn and bris even have different speed and pace numbers..Tsn has a power rating figure. I really dont' pay attention to it though.

[ezrabrooks]

I use the TSN Ultimate PP's, using their custom card feature. Monthly plan is $90, for unlimited downloads. More than enough information

[Stevie Belmont]

DRF

[ranchwest]

Looks like everyone has there own personal likes on this one. I'll try TSN or BRIS a couple of times. They are cheaper anyway.

I notice that TSN is missing "prime power ranking" or something like that, is that figure that useful?

I didn't realize that the Beyer numbers and speed numbers of Bris would be different on the same days form. Are the numbers that different? Do they have different meanings? If not, why would they be different? Is pace info very reliable? Sorry for all the newb questions....

ProCaps files are the TSN files with a few fields populated that aren't in the TSN files. One is a power ranking similar to the Prime Power Ranking.

I think the individual files cost more than the TSN fiiles, but the monthly rate is the same.

[SupersRFun]

Damn. I was gonna swith to Bris, but alot of you seem to like DRF. Since I already understand that one fully, I guess I'll just stick to it.
Does anyone have more info on the pace numbers on Bris or TSN? Are they that useful/reliable?

Does anyone know why the speed numbers would be different from DRF to Bris to TSN?

Thanks for bearing with me,

Newb

[socantra]

Does anyone have more info on the pace numbers on Bris or TSN? Are they that useful/reliable?

Does anyone know why the speed numbers would be different from DRF to Bris to TSN?



The only one who can really answer the question about the usefulness or reliability of the numbers of any particular service is you, depending on your own records.

People are reasonably helpful here, but never forget that we are the competition, and its somewhat hard to tell if any particular person's opinion is worth anything or not.

I think dick Schmidt says it best. Never let anyone else do your thinking for you.

The speed ratings are different from DRF to BRIS to TSN because they are based on completely different pars, point values and measurement scales. A fifth of a second at six furlongs is worth 2.8 Beyer points and only 1.67 BRIS points. I'm not sure if anyone can say exactly what the difference between BRIS and TSN is.

Find a past performance you are comfortable with and learn everything you possibly can abou them.

[Viruss]

Hello Guys

I use the Bris PP generator. I like the Prime Power rating as a start to my handicapping i know that the top 4 win about 80% of the time at my track .
The PP generator will also put them in what ever order you want Prim power ,ml running style.

As far as what the better PP its all up to the users and their preferances. I still like the Beyers better then the Bris Speed figs.


Earl J

[bobphilo]

I didn't realize that the Beyer numbers and speed numbers of Bris would be different on the same days form. Are the numbers that different? Do they have different meanings? If not, why would they be different? Is pace info very reliable? Sorry for all the newb questions....

The difference with any 2 different types of figures begins with the progections the figure maker uses to compare to the actual times.
In addition, the Bris figures are totally computer generated with no human intervention. The Beyers are sometimes adjusted when the computor generated figure seems out of whack.

It a matter of personal preference. If one feels that an unadjusted computer algorithm produces more accurate figures, then they'll probably prefer the Bris figs. If one has more faith in the Beyer figure makers, then the DRF and Beyers are the way to go.

Personally, I find some days the Beyers are more accurate - on others the Bris figures are. I give the Beyers a slight edge overall but the Bris PP's give more information. I particularly like the Bris Class and Race ratings as good guides to the levels of competition a horse has faced and how well it performed - a very underatted part of their PPs, IMO. The Race Summarys at the end are useful too - especially the impact values for the different post positions. Just make sure the sample of races they used is fairly large.

Bob

[cj's dad]

PF- the most reliable of all

[nobeyerspls]

I've been using the print version of the DRF for over fifty years. It's on my kitchen table as I type this. I've completed Belmont and Churchill and took a break before doing Woodbine.
I bet at the track (or simulcast facility during winters in Florida) and bet off the form's first page for each track. I have to be careful to change the numbers when entries are involved.
I wasn't pleased when they added the comment line and ranked workouts as I had that data on my own. Payouts got better when they added the beyer speed figures though as those seem to confuse my wagering opponents.
I construct exotic plays at three tracks, building them around live longshots after eliminating races with likely poor returns or too many solid contenders.

[bobphilo]

PF- the most reliable of all

I find CJ's figures just as good as the Beyers, plus his pace figures are much better than Brisnet or the Beyers. His pace figures are on the same scale as his speed figures, while the Moss pace figures always seem too low in comparison to the final time figs. The Brisnet pace figures don't take into account the fact that the same time in a route race should get a higher pace figure than in a sprint.
At least with CJ, pace figures, they always make sense in relation to the race.

I should add that this is also true for John's Kuck pace figures. Like CJ's, they always make sense in relation to the final speed figure.

Bob

[1GCFAN]

I do like the BRIS last page but for PP line I perfer DRF. I used to use Todays Racing Digest for the Cal tracks but got away from CAL when Santa Anita got all messed up.

[levinmpa]

I use the $0.50 TSN data files since they can be used with various handicapping programs and can be printed out with the PP Generator.

I'm just curious if anyone uses the Posttimedaily PP's, formally the Handicapper's Daily Racing Form owned by Michael Pizzola. I see they came out with version 2 of the PP software. It looks pretty good, but race cards are $1.50 each. I can get 3 TSN files for the price of 1 Posttimedaily file.

[bobphilo]

I use the $0.50 TSN data files since they can be used with various handicapping programs and can be printed out with the PP Generator.

I'm just curious if anyone uses the Posttimedaily PP's, formally the Handicapper's Daily Racing Form owned by Michael Pizzola. I see they came out with version 2 of the PP software. It looks pretty good, but race cards are $1.50 each. I can get 3 TSN files for the price of 1 Posttimedaily file.

I tried them briefly. I like the filtering option but the speed figures are not very good and that's crucial to me. They're a lot like the old DRF speed figures with the variant based on how fast the races were run that day, without regard to which horses were running.

Bob

[Hajck Hillstrom]

Brisnet Ultimate PP's

When I utilize them, my results are always better than with other data.

Its a bottom line decision.

[NoDayJob]

Post Time Daily, comma delimited, yearly subscription--- been using it since its inception as ITS years ago.

[jonnielu]

After 49 years of 'capping I've given up on all the various "forms". Don't even use a track program. Strickly a "Physicality" 'capper now. Have a greater strike rate at higher prices. Still losing but at a far lower level. Also, the hours of preparation & added costs have now been eliminated. Works best at live meets but also an effective strategy on simo's when you can get a reasonable look in the paddock. No look, no bet. This rule alone has saved me a considerable sum of money.

A bold move, sounds like you have found that past performances can contain equal mis-information, and that very good performances are easily hidden within "bad" form. Have you added a "no-warmup - no-bet" rule also?

jdl

[socantra]

I tried them briefly. I like the filtering option but the speed figures are not very good and that's crucial to me. They're a lot like the old DRF speed figures with the variant based on how fast the races were run that day, without regard to which horses were running.

Bob

Where do you get your information on the fifty cent TSN file variants? As far as I know, there is no variant listed in the data file, jjust as there is no variant listed in the BRIS files for their speed ratings, or in the Formulator files for the Beyer Figures.

I have heard they use no variant. I have also heard they use a variant that can be extracted just like the Beyer and BRIS variants. The problem with that is that you need a par figure to extract them.

Where does your information coming from? This is not an attack. I am sincerely looking for the answer. I would like to know what the difference between BRIS and TSN speed figures are, though after tracking both for a period of time, I can find little difference in their reliability.

[bobphilo]

Where do you get your information on the fifty cent TSN file variants? As far as I know, there is no variant listed in the data file, jjust as there is no variant listed in the BRIS files for their speed ratings, or in the Formulator files for the Beyer Figures.

I have heard they use no variant. I have also heard they use a variant that can be extracted just like the Beyer and BRIS variants. The problem with that is that you need a par figure to extract them.

Where does your information coming from? This is not an attack. I am sincerely looking for the answer. I would like to know what the difference between BRIS and TSN speed figures are, though after tracking both for a period of time, I can find little difference in their reliability.

No offense taken. I was responding to a question about the Post Time Daily speed figures and their variants. Have to run now, but will answer your Bris and TSN question later today.

Bob

[socantra]

No offense taken. I was responding to a question about the Post Time Daily speed figures and their variants. Have to run now, but will answer your Bris and TSN question later today.

Bob

Sorry, my screwup. I read the 1st paragraph of the quoted message and missed the 2nd, about the Post Time Daily files. I would appreciate whatever information you have on BRIS/TSN though.

[Tom]

I had a copy of the BRIS pars once, from the old BBS. They were based on purse, I believe, and type of race, but not track specific that I could tell.
I have a chart of the 100 SR based times for TSN, but BRIS is different.

[bobphilo]

Sorry, my screwup. I read the 1st paragraph of the quoted message and missed the 2nd, about the Post Time Daily files. I would appreciate whatever information you have on BRIS/TSN though.

Hi Socantra,


If you check my earlier post in the thread, you will see my answer to the original question of which PPs I use (and why). I'll go into more detail here.


In comparing the DRF with Beyers, and Brisnet and/or TSN, I find them very similar in overall accuracy. The principle difference is that the Brisnet and TSN figures are totally computer generated with no human intervention, while the Beyers are occasionally adjusted when they seem out of whack by the person doing the figures. For example, Randy Moss, whose judgment I respect greatly, does the Beyers for the Fair Grounds/Oaklawn circuit. That’s the main difference in their methodology. That’s why I give the Beyers a slight edge for the circuits where they have a good figure maker.


One advantage of the Brisnet/TSN PP’s is that they include more valuable information, such as pace and class figures. A very under-rated feature is their class and race ratings, which are great in estimating the level of competition a horse has faced (based on the horses that actually ran well in that race rather than claiming price or purse value) and how he/she performed at that level. I also find the Prime Power ratings useful – not so much for picking the winner, but for narrowing the field to the top 4, that will include the top 2 finishers in the Exactas I like to play, a very high percentage of the time. This is a huge time saver for me. Plus I get the Ultimate Bris PPs free for every card I play that day.


As for the difference between Brisnet and TSN, these seem to be minimal. Brisnet has a “Library” at their website with links to several subjects, including the methodology they employ in producing their speed, pace and class figures. If you check out the TSN site you will find similar links that indicate their methodology is pretty much the same. That’s why their figures are so similar except for what figure they use as a base figure. Bris says that a typical Grade 1 winning performance earns a 106 on Bris. TSN doesn’t disclose their pars but I find them to be about 4 or 5 points less for the same level and/or performance.


Neither one discloses the variant they calculated, nor does Beyer, but they all definitely adjust their figures with a variant. The closest I've seen to that is the Speed Handicapper software by Charles Carroll (author of “Handicapping Speed”), which is capable of reverse engineering the speed figures and shows you the effect of including (or excluding) whatever percentage of the variant that you wish- from 0% to 100%. This is based on his controversial theory that variants are overrated – but that is a topic for another day.

Hope this helps.


Bob

[chrisl]

Speed figures PP's from speedfigures.com very good luck with these, after taking there seminar. Right now only ca tracks. Priced very reasonable for right now

[socantra]

I had a copy of the BRIS pars once, from the old BBS. They were based on purse, I believe, and type of race, but not track specific that I could tell.
I have a chart of the 100 SR based times for TSN, but BRIS is different.

The 100 SR based times for TSN comes from Jerry Stokes at A1handicapping.com and have been floating around the net for years. I've never been able to find out from Jerry where he got those numbers, but attempts to use them for any meaningful calculations are not encouraging.

[socantra]

Hi Socantra,


One advantage of the Brisnet/TSN PP’s is that they include more valuable information, such as pace and class figures. A very under-rated feature is their class and race ratings, which are great in estimating the level of competition a horse has faced (based on the horses that actually ran well in that race rather than claiming price or purse value) and how he/she performed at that level. I also find the Prime Power ratings useful – not so much for picking the winner, but for narrowing the field to the top 4, that will include the top 2 finishers in the Exactas I like to play, a very high percentage of the time.



TSN fifty centers have neither the class ratings nor prime power ratings. Their Procaps files have both..

[Tom]

The 100 SR based times for TSN comes from Jerry Stokes at A1handicapping.com and have been floating around the net for years. I've never been able to find out from Jerry where he got those numbers, but attempts to use them for any meaningful calculations are not encouraging.

Can't speak for TSN, but BRIS, the diffence between 1:10 and 1:10.1 is not one point. if 1:10 = 90, 1:10.1 = 88.3. An 89 would = 110.167. But not always! Some races are just plain wrong.

[socantra]

Can't speak for TSN, but BRIS, the diffence between 1:10 and 1:10.1 is not one point. if 1:10 = 90, 1:10.1 = 88.3. An 89 would = 110.167. But not always! Some races are just plain wrong.

The time equivalent for BRIS is .02 second per furlong. At 6 furlongs,one point is .12 second and at 8 furlongs, .16 second. The fifth second per point doesn't show up til 10 furlongs.

I assume TSN is the same. I've tried using an 8 foot length instead of BRIS's 10 foot length, but it makes the numbers much clumsier and doesn't really seem to add anything. Trackmaster, as the 1st major Equibase client apparently used an 8 foot length. Their whole structure makes perfect sense when you apply that. I thought it might work with TSN, but no luck.

[trigger]

The time equivalent for BRIS is .02 second per furlong. At 6 furlongs,one point is .12 second and at 8 furlongs, .16 second. The fifth second per point doesn't show up til 10 furlongs.

I assume TSN is the same. I've tried using an 8 foot length instead of BRIS's 10 foot length, but it makes the numbers much clumsier and doesn't really seem to add anything. Trackmaster, as the 1st major Equibase client apparently used an 8 foot length. Their whole structure makes perfect sense when you apply that. I thought it might work with TSN, but no luck.

As has been mentioned in other similar threads, all the final time ratings(Beyer, Bris,etc.,) are partly based on beaten lengths per the official charts. Since the chart makers determine beaten lengths by the time elapsed between each runner( after the winner) as each runner crosses the finish line , you have to know the exact time the chart maker assigns to each length in order to accurately compute the length of a length and a final rating. So,if the Beyer, Bris, etc., ratings use a time per length that is different from the chart makers ,a built in error occurs.
Good luck at finding out what time the chart makers are using for a beaten length as they regard this info as proprietary (if you can believe it!) .

[point given]

Bris ultimates w/comments. Free = good.

The only things i donot like with bris pps is the truncating of the names of the first 3 finsihers at the end of the pp lines. I like to see who ran vs who and its a chore to try to make hay of some of these name shortenings. The other thing is the graphic of the turf races of where the races start, chute or no chute. These are two concerns of mine and i've got no traction when i've emailed them on it

Things I do like are the E1 E2 numbers etc to get a gauge on the early speed,pace of the race. I have problems when i go saratoga and have to use the drf to handicap and can't get my Bris pps., wish they sold them ontrack or off up there. I just feel much more confident using the Bris after many years than the DRF. Have been meaning to try out the Formulator pps , but not playing as much as i used to .

[Kelso]

Things I do like are the E1 E2 numbers etc to get a gauge on the early speed,pace of the race.PG,
With their Ultimate Race Summary, BRIS provides "Early Speed Points" (column abbreviation PTS) for each runner. The category measures early speed "based on running position and beaten lengths at the first call of recent races."

I often find that horses with the higest PTS ratings in a race carry running styles listed as P (and occassionally even S). Does this make sense to you? It seems contradictory that horses with 7 and 8 PTS ratings would have anything other than an E running style.

Any thoughts on this? Thank you.

[cmoore]

PG,
With their Ultimate Race Summary, BRIS provides "Early Speed Points" (column abbreviation PTS) for each runner. The category measures early speed "based on running position and beaten lengths at the first call of recent races."

I often find that horses with the higest PTS ratings in a race carry running styles listed as P (and occassionally even S). Does this make sense to you? It seems contradictory that horses with 7 and 8 PTS ratings would have anything other than an E running style.

Any thoughts on this? Thank you.

Go to "Early Speed Points" on page 3

http://www.brisnet.com/library/ppexplan.pdf

[takeout]

The only things i donot like with bris pps is the truncating of the names of the first 3 finsihers at the end of the pp lines. I like to see who ran vs who and its a chore to try to make hay of some of these name shortenings.

Amen! Same with TSN. I remember hoping, when I first used the TSN PP Generator, that by stripping some of the other stuff out, maybe that would somehow magically allow the company line to expand. Of course no such luck.

[point given]

Amen! Same with TSN. I remember hoping, when I first used the TSN PP Generator, that by stripping some of the other stuff out, maybe that would somehow magically allow the company line to expand. Of course no such luck.

bris and tsn are the same product. good idea on stripping out stuff, wish it was possible too

[bobphilo]

TSN fifty centers have neither the class ratings nor prime power ratings. Their Procaps files have both..

No, not the 50 cent PPs, which were not mentioned in my post, but their Ultimate PPs include Pace, Class and TSN Power Ratings as well as their Speed figures - just like Brisnet. The Power Ratings are even explained in the Library section. Those were the similarities I was refering to.

Bob

[raybo]

I use Bris data files, run them into my Excel spreadsheet, do all my handicapping there, including adding my own figs, and either view or printout my own customized racing form, similar to the the DRF format.

I've used Bris files since shortly after their inception and other than the infrequent errors that occur, have few negatives for them. TSN is basically the same data, they both come from DRF. Even the DRF speed figure and track variant appear in the data files.

I adjust "ALL" calculated figures myself because there are inaccuracies in the pace, speed, and class figures from Bris. This is crucial, knowing when a number is wrong. Most users of the Bris data files or Ultimates use their figs "as is". This gives me a distinct advantage.

[Kelso]

Go to "Early Speed Points" on page 3

http://www.brisnet.com/library/ppexplan.pdf Thank you, CM, but that section emphasized the basis of my question. It consisted of my earlier definition-quote and added "the higher the speed points the more early speed the horse has shown in recent races."

I still don't understand how a horse with an early speed rating of 7 or 8 can be anything other than an "Early" runner ... yet many are listed by BRIS as "Pressers.". (Are you suggesting that the BRIS running styles are not synched up with their other numbers?)

[takeout]

I've used Bris files since shortly after their inception and other than the infrequent errors that occur, have few negatives for them. TSN is basically the same data, they both come from DRF. Even the DRF speed figure and track variant appear in the data files.
I agree that TSN is basically the same data but not sure they both come from DRF. There are still differences in some trainer names between the two (BRIS & TSN) and for reasons I still can’t fathom there is “DRF data” and “Equibase data”. That’s a neat trick considering DRF gets its data from Equibase. So, just what is it that makes it “DRF data” in the BRIS files and nowhere else???

[bobphilo]

I agree that TSN is basically the same data but not sure they both come from DRF. There are still differences in some trainer names between the two (BRIS & TSN) and for reasons I still can’t fathom there is “DRF data” and “Equibase data”. That’s a neat trick considering DRF gets its data from Equibase. So, just what is it that makes it “DRF data” in the BRIS files and nowhere else???

You are correct. Neither Bris/TSN get their information from DRF - DRF is NOT in the data providing business to it's rival providers.
They all get their basic information, including race type, distance and raw times, from Equibase, which IS in the data selling business, to DRF, Brisnet/TSN who then apply their own methodologies to this data to produce their own figures and PPs.

Bob

[takeout]

Yet this can be seen on BRIS’s home page:

Information as to races, race results and earnings was obtained from result charts, Copyright (C) 2008, Daily Racing Form, Inc., All Rights Reserved, published in the Daily Racing Form and utilized herein with permission of the copyright owner.
[snip]

Again, neat trick, seeing as how DRF hasn’t employed any chart callers for about ten years now.

[raybo]

Yet this can be seen on BRIS’s home page:

Information as to races, race results and earnings was obtained from result charts, Copyright (C) 2008, Daily Racing Form, Inc., All Rights Reserved, published in the Daily Racing Form and utilized herein with permission of the copyright owner.
[snip]

Again, neat trick, seeing as how DRF hasn’t employed any chart callers for about ten years now.

This is the info I was using when I stated that Bris gets it's data from the DRF. If that's wrong then Bris, obviously needs to update their statement or, they have an exclusive, long standing contract with DRF to supply the data. Who knows?

[Tom]

Thank you, CM, but that section emphasized the basis of my question. It consisted of my earlier definition-quote and added "the higher the speed points the more early speed the horse has shown in recent races."

I still don't understand how a horse with an early speed rating of 7 or 8 can be anything other than an "Early" runner ... yet many are listed by BRIS as "Pressers.". (Are you suggesting that the BRIS running styles are not synched up with their other numbers?)

The only thing I see that connect to the BRIS running styles are moon tides! Fagetaboudem! They are wrong far too often to be of any value. Make your own calls, the way YOU see that horse running today. Mechanical methods for this aspect of handicapping are like blind dates....look good when you pick them up, but who knows what you'll get later in the day! :eek:

[RonTiller]

You are correct. Neither Bris/TSN get their information from DRF - DRF is NOT in the data providing business to it's rival providers.
They all get their basic information, including race type, distance and raw times, from Equibase, which IS in the data selling business, to DRF, Brisnet/TSN who then apply their own methodologies to this data to produce their own figures and PPs.
I am not a spokesperson for BRIS or TSN but last I heard, this is incorrect. BRIS got data via the DRF data collection channel for years and TSN simultaneously got data from the Equibase data channel. Around 1999-2000, when the DRF got out of the data collection business, Equibase became the only major data collector in the industry.

However, my understanding is that the DRF continued to operate the data channel to BRIS, only now, DRF was redistributing Equibase collected data to BRIS instead of distributing DRF collected data. BRIS did not have a contract with Equibase - they had a contract with the DRF, who acted as a reseller of Equibase data, hence the statement on BRIS's web site: "Information as to races, race results and earnings was obtained from result charts, Copyright (C) 2008, Daily Racing Form, Inc., All Rights Reserved, published in the Daily Racing Form and utilized herein with permission of the copyright owner." Go to the strategic partners page on Equibase's web site and you'll find TSN but not BRIS.

Although the root data ultimately comes from Equibase, BRIS has gotten its Equibase data via an intermediary, the DRF. I am not aware that anything has changed, but as I don't work for or represent BRIS in any way, I cannot state with certainty this correctly represents their current situation.

It is indeed weird that competitors are selling data to one another.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[bobphilo]

I am not a spokesperson for BRIS or TSN but last I heard, this is incorrect. BRIS got data via the DRF data collection channel for years and TSN simultaneously got data from the Equibase data channel. Around 1999-2000, when the DRF got out of the data collection business, Equibase became the only major data collector in the industry.

However, my understanding is that the DRF continued to operate the data channel to BRIS, only now, DRF was redistributing Equibase collected data to BRIS instead of distributing DRF collected data. BRIS did not have a contract with Equibase - they had a contract with the DRF, who acted as a reseller of Equibase data, hence the statement on BRIS's web site: "Information as to races, race results and earnings was obtained from result charts, Copyright (C) 2008, Daily Racing Form, Inc., All Rights Reserved, published in the Daily Racing Form and utilized herein with permission of the copyright owner." Go to the strategic partners page on Equibase's web site and you'll find TSN but not BRIS.

Although the root data ultimately comes from Equibase, BRIS has gotten its Equibase data via an intermediary, the DRF. I am not aware that anything has changed, but as I don't work for or represent BRIS in any way, I cannot state with certainty this correctly represents their current situation.

It is indeed weird that competitors are selling data to one another.

Ron Tiller
HDW

Ron,

I stand corrected. You have researched this better than I have. Apparently, while Equibase is still the ultimate source for both DRF and Bris/TSN. The latter get their data through DRF as an intermediary. Thanks for the update.

I agree that it seems odd that rivals are selling each other data. This may be because Bris cannot come to terms and DRF may be acting as a middle man at a profit or for other considerations from Bris? Maybe DRF has worked out some exclusivity clause with Equibase so they can profit from being the middleman? Just speculating on this one.

Bob

[maxwell]

DRF

[ponyplayer]

DRF Formulator. :cool:

[ranchwest]

Thank you, CM, but that section emphasized the basis of my question. It consisted of my earlier definition-quote and added "the higher the speed points the more early speed the horse has shown in recent races."

I still don't understand how a horse with an early speed rating of 7 or 8 can be anything other than an "Early" runner ... yet many are listed by BRIS as "Pressers.". (Are you suggesting that the BRIS running styles are not synched up with their other numbers?)

A horse can get 7 speed points just from being up close in accordance with Quirin's qualifications. From that perspective, it isn't difficult to see how a horse can be a P and have 7 points. This especially works out well if you prefer that an E represents a need-to-lead or close to it.

[takeout]

I began using the TSN stuff many years ago because too many of the trainer names for my track were wrong in the DRF and BRIS stuff. Much of this has now been corrected but some mistakes still remain. These are proof that DRF is doing something differently with the Equibase data than everyone else, at least insofar as the trainer names are concerned. Often when there’s a trainer name change it’s like DRF doesn’t get the message. We had a trainer that legally changed his first name a couple of years ago. It was immediately changed in the Equibase data and all of the re-sellers had the change except DRF (and of course BRIS). It remains wrong in the DRF and BRIS files to this day. (Good luck if you've mixed info in databases, programs and such. You probably have this guy showing as two different trainers now. At least that's what happened to me.)

I would like to see any other re-sellers do what DRF and BRIS are doing and get away with it. Equibase would have them in court in a NY minute. Obviously Equibase, DRF, and BRIS are all in bed together some kind of way. What could possibly be the reason to keep buying data from a company that no longer collects data? Re-sellers buy from wholesalers, not other re-sellers. The whole thing is insane.

[RonTiller]

Some Equibase Value Added Resellers (VARs) have replicated Equibase databases. This means that if somebody at Equibase changes a trainer's name in their database the change will percolate almost real time to these VARs replicated copies of the relevant tables. Same if somebody at Equibase determines that what they thought were 2 trainers is actually the same trainer - the change will percolate across the entire trainer's history via replication.

This could be the source of the differences you've noticed: real time replicated data (directly from Equibase) versus accumulated but not replicated - I don't know.

What could possibly be the reason to keep buying data from a company that no longer collects data? Re-sellers buy from wholesalers, not other re-sellers. The whole thing is insane.

Again, I speak not as a person representing or connected to BRIS or the DRF in any way, but I'd guess things ended up this way for contractual and business reasons. BRIS became the biggest and most successful data seller buying and distributing DRF data. When the DRF stopped collecting data, no doubt BRIS made every effort to protect their position, as did the DRF. It may have just boiled down to BRIS getting better contractual terms with the DRF - again, I'm just guessing.

Also remember, this was pre-Formulator days. When Steve Christ bought the DRF, their only on line presence was - well, virtually nothing. ITS, Michael Pizzola's company, was selling the DRF brand of PPs, complete with Beyers, via their past performance generator. Selling data to BRIS up to then may have been like found money, before the advent and explosion of internet distributed data. No doubt BRIS was and is an important customer for the DRF. Also, Equibase was only starting to get involved in selling their own line of products over the internet, in addition to providing data to VARs; prior to this, the primary outlets for the data they collected were track programs sold at the track and VARs like TSN, HDW, TrackMaster, et al.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[Tom]

So if it all comes from EB to begin with, do some outfits actually hire a guy to put the thier unique errors into it? :rolleyes::D

[ranchwest]

So if it all comes from EB to begin with, do some outfits actually hire a guy to put the thier unique errors into it? :rolleyes::D

It's part of the rich feature set.

[takeout]

Some Equibase Value Added Resellers (VARs) have replicated Equibase databases. This means that if somebody at Equibase changes a trainer's name in their database the change will percolate almost real time to these VARs replicated copies of the relevant tables. Same if somebody at Equibase determines that what they thought were 2 trainers is actually the same trainer - the change will percolate across the entire trainer's history via replication.
That sounds like a good idea to me. It continues to surprise me that something as basic as trainer names aren’t the same in all of the VARs' products.

[Tom]

A big DUH here.
Why not just assign each trainer a NUMBER?
Then they can spell the names however they want to.

[RichieP]

A big DUH here.
Why not just assign each trainer a NUMBER?
Then they can spell the names however they want to.

Because your idea makes too much sense,is simple to execute providing there is cooperation and a central governing body to work from.

Oops I forgot. "Ass Backwards" runs thoroughbred racing.

[Kelso]

Why not just assign each trainer a NUMBER?I think the federal prison system claims an exclusive on that process ... says no numbers 'til they're assigned a cot at Leavenworth. :D

[jfb]

I get my PP's from somewhere in the Far East. I believe they take the best of all the vendors and publish their own at a fraction of the cost.

Is this something I can use also? Would you share the info?