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podonne
06-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Hello,

Has anyone ever downloaded a program, say two or three days before a race and, come race day, found that the program numbers had changed? I've been downloading drf csv data files as soon as they come up on TSN, but when I note the final odds I've only been using the program number on Youbet, not the name. It never occured to me to check and if the program numbers ever change due to scratches between two days out and race day, the last month may have been an excercise in futility.

Thanks,
Phil

46zilzal
06-18-2008, 03:42 PM
You should always wager on NAMES (primary) not post positions (secondary).

podonne
06-18-2008, 03:46 PM
Well, post positions aren't the same as program numbers (they are off if there is a 1A, or 2B or so on). I was writing down "betting interest" which would correspond to the numeric part of the entry (1A and 1B are both 1). Post position is irrelevant for recording wagers.

cj
06-18-2008, 03:47 PM
You should always wager on NAMES (primary) not post positions (secondary).

Tellers just love that...

46zilzal
06-18-2008, 03:49 PM
Tellers just love that...
My wagering format has the name next to the current post positions. I don't wager at a teller, haven't for many a year.

cj
06-18-2008, 03:50 PM
My wagering format has the name next to the current post positions. I don't wager at a teller, haven't for many a year.

It was a joke.

As the other poster pointed out, post positions get you in trouble, it is the program numbers you need. I'm sure you know that.

RonTiller
06-18-2008, 04:23 PM
podonne,

Yes, program numbers are ALWAYS subject to change until the race card is finalized by the track and Equibase. For many tracks, the data is finalized 2 or 3 days in advance (in which case the program numbers are official and won't change); more than a few aren't finalized till the day before the race. And tracks do in fact change program numbers up to the time they finalize the data for printing in the track programs. This is entirely appropriate, as the data is still in work, in an unfinalized status.

If you download 2, 3 or 4 days in advance of the race, depending on the track, the program numbers may be finalized or may still be in flux, along with some of the other data elements. This is simply the price you pay for downloading the data early, before it is finalized.

As others have stated, use the horse name, not post position or program number, and you will solve your problem.

Ron Tiller
HDW

podonne
06-18-2008, 05:29 PM
Ron, thank you for you reply. I supposed i will have to start over and chalk it up to a lesson learned! Pity though, strings are much harder to keep track of than numbers...

Spendabuck85
06-18-2008, 05:33 PM
Not sure about TSN but Brisnet files have a designation (p) after the racedate when the Program names are included. For example 20p includes program #'s, 21 does not.

podonne
06-18-2008, 05:37 PM
As an additional question then, is there a good rule of thumb as to when you might expect the programs to be finalized? 12 am the day of the race? 3am, 6am?

podonne
06-18-2008, 05:39 PM
Spendabuck85:

Does that mean that if there are program numbers in the file, then it is the final numbers? I don't have brisnet, but if there is just a 21, instead of a 20p, if you read the file will is show the program numbers inside anyway, just "preliminary" instead of "final"

Spendabuck85
06-18-2008, 05:51 PM
In the Bris layout there are two separate fields, one for Post Position and one for Program Post Position or Program Number. The Program field along with the Morning Line Odds are not populated until the file is finalized with the "p" designation.

podonne
06-18-2008, 06:00 PM
Spendabuck85:

Interesting. I just pulled up brisnet and tsnhorse next to each other and TSN doesn't list the programs that Brisnet hasn't marked with a "p". So maybe by only downloading from tsnhorse I avoid the question.

Then again, maybe the question remains that after a program has been made available with morning lines and programs numbers, can changes to it be made before race day, or are they locked in? RonTiller's comment makes sense, but I gotta think if they go through the trouble of notating when a program changes it's state, there's a deeper meaning than just, "oh we gave them numbers, but it still doesn't mean anything until race day"

(as an aside, i always wondered what the difference between the two sites is. Looks like we just found one.)

takeout
06-18-2008, 06:53 PM
Interesting. I just pulled up brisnet and tsnhorse next to each other and TSN doesn't list the programs that Brisnet hasn't marked with a "p". So maybe by only downloading from tsnhorse I avoid the question.
I think that’s right. I use the fifty-cent data files from TSN (made with Equibase data) and it has always been my experience that once the date is up on the site, that’s it, they’re ready. I get them over two days out. (Example: Usually shortly after noon on Tuesday for a Thursday 7:15 PM post time.)

You only have to wait for the “p” for the BRIS files. The BRIS files are made with “DRF data” (I use quotes because I still don’t know what the hell it is. Just means DRF gets paid something for it, I guess.) Must be an extra step/process involved (?) hence the need to wait for the “p”.

Steve 'StatMan'
06-18-2008, 06:59 PM
Last I looked, TSN doesn't issue their pps until the card is finalized, and the program numbers and morning line odds are available. Helps if you only want final cards, but sometimes it takes a day or more between the entry date and the finalization. Brisnet & DRF will sell early pps with the entries and no program numbers, and you can get download again later for the final card-no extra charge, so you can start handicapping earlier, but must adjust for progam numbers, as there could be ae's or early scratches. After the card is finalized, there "shouldn't" be any changes other than program scratches and jockey changes, or for any errors (incorrect weights, equip, med, owner names, etc.)

I say "Shouldn't" because sometimes a mistake is made and a race is corrected, and even a program number can change - such as the discovery of a duel ownership that requires horses be coupled as an enty - sometimes a common owner is a part of more than one ownership group, ownership groups often have a group name rather than each co-owner's name listed. Often program numbers can be presumed, but in the event of one of these errors, esp. on a late finalizing track like MTH & MED, printing and other errors happen. For example, MTH made a late change before officially finalizing their card on Saturday 6/7/08 (a.k.a. Belmont Day) after most publications print deadlines had passed, and correction notices had to be sent out.

So, if you're working with 'finailzed' cards, you probably have good data, but there will be an exception unless you downloaded your cards after those rare corrections are made. As long as you are using program numbers instead of post position numbers, you'll be fine.

takeout
06-18-2008, 08:09 PM
(as an aside, i always wondered what the difference between the two sites is. Looks like we just found one.)
I’ve never figured it out but it doesn’t smell right. I imagine it’s the Equibase versus DRF data thing but how do you have DRF data when DRF gets its data from Equibase like everyone else? Maybe Congress could look that one over as long as they’re looking.

RonTiller
06-19-2008, 02:02 PM
I may be able to clear up some, but not all of the confusion.

1. All the data flying around (DRF, BRIS, TSN, HDW, et al.) ultimately originates from Equibase (excluding data that individuals or companies like the Sheets, Thorograph and private clockers and such compile on their own). This has been discussed in previous threads.

2. The data for a race card in the future gets initially input into Equibase's system at different times, depending on the track. I assume (but do not know) that this has something to do with deadlines, rules, regulations and such that differ from track to track and racing secretary to racing secretary. This means that early data for Louisiana Downs may be available much sooner that early data for Lonestar Park.

3. Many resellers post early files that contain data for the race card as it exists at that moment - subject to change of course. The printed edition of the DRF has tighter deadlines than companies who distribute data electronically, so the data, finalized or not, is pretty good - good enough for the paper edition of the DRF. The only caveat with the early unfinalized data is that it is subject to change - mind you, not massive change but change nonetheless; in particular, program numbers and post positions. And I hasten to point out that some tracks do finalize the data 2 to 3 days in advance, so its not all "early" data subject to change. Additionally, some tracks just have fewer changes than others.

4. Between the time when the early data first becomes available for distribution (as early files or printed newspapers) and the time when the race card is finalized by the tracks and Equibase, additional information is filled in by the tracks (program numbers, morning lines, etc.) and information is modified as circumstances require.

5. Different tracks finalize the data at different times. Mountaineer might be 2 days before the race; Belmont and Hollywood the day before the race.

6. At the moment, we only post finalized files the day before the races - in part to avoid the mess of distributing multiple versions of a race card, in part to insure all the statistics are as "fresh" as possible. If BRIS designates their finalized data with a special code in the files name, you should be able to rely on those files as containing the finalized official data. I cannot and do not speak for BRIS on this matter though, just ourselves. If you have any doubts or are still confused, I'm sure somebody at BRIS can answer your questions.

Ron Tiller
HDW

Marlin
06-19-2008, 02:44 PM
Tracks where "scratch time" is used will be much more unreliable. A horse will be declared and the post positions and program numbers will be changed on the final copy. Tracks with "no scratch time" are much more reliable and should not change one iota.

andicap
06-20-2008, 04:47 AM
BRIS/TSN does NOT charge you for re-downloading a given day's card, why not just redownload the card the night before so you're sure it has the latest program numbers, etc?

Wizard of Odds
06-20-2008, 07:07 AM
After scratches, the on-track Morning Line changes from the printed program morning line.