Monmouth Park (15% takeout on PK4 & PK5 plays)

[pktruckdriver]

Enough said, right.

[njcurveball]

15% takeout on bets that win very infrequently is not much of a help to the average handicapper.

Yes, it is sweet getting $1,100 back instead of $1,000. But you still have to cash the ticket to gain this benefit.

The track would be better served to reduce takeout to 12% on straight bets and have the crowd pump their money into them. The churn would increase handle much more than doing it on a single exotic bet that there will only be a few winners cashing.

You would still be better off playing your $10 or $20 to win on these races. Imagine having a $100 winner and not hitting the pick 5! Tough ride home that day if you didn't have any money to win on that horse.

[BombsAway Bob]

if you like a horse (even a little bit) that's going to pay $100, bet him to win!
You're more likely to have that $100 winner by spreading on a Pick-something ticket, however.
ANY wager with more than a 20% takeout is obscene to me, anyways..

[whyhorseofcourse]

The track would be better served to reduce takeout to 12% on straight bets and have the crowd pump their money into them. The churn would increase handle much more than doing it on a single exotic bet that there will only be

I think your wrong. I think that the only people who would "pump their money into" the pools is avid handicappers who understand the concept of takeout. I would say avid handciappers are by far the minority of horse bettors in this day and age.

[GameTheory]

I think your wrong. I think that the only people who would "pump their money into" the pools is avid handicappers who understand the concept of takeout. I would say avid handciappers are by far the minority of horse bettors in this day and age.Well, it would happen somewhat naturally because all the odds would go up slightly, making all win bets more attractive. And those win odds are displayed all over the place, and many use them also as guidelines when making exotic bets (especially same race bets like exactas & trifectas). So it would pump up handle overall simply by bumping up those displayed win odds. Whether enough to offset the takeout, I don't know. Usually when they try these things they don't give it a chance to work.

It is also possible that "avid handicappers" are now the MAJORITY since all the number bettors, etc, go play the lottery and slots and don't bother with racing at all...

[whyhorseofcourse]

Well, it would happen somewhat naturally because all the odds would go up slightly, making all win bets more attractive. And those win odds are displayed all over the place, and many use them also as guidelines when making exotic bets (especially same race bets like exactas & trifectas). So it would pump up handle overall simply by bumping up those displayed win odds. Whether enough to offset the takeout, I don't know. Usually when they try these things they don't give it a chance to work.

It is also possible that "avid handicappers" are now the MAJORITY since all the number bettors, etc, go play the lottery and slots and don't bother with racing at all...

So if the takeout is reduced 3%. And there are ten horses in the race that would mean everyones odds would go up 3/10ths of a percent. On the tote board. So it will really not be noticable once so ever.

And as avid handicappers I was talking about understanding takeout. I would say a very few percentage of everyday track bettors understand it.
Maybe 10%.

[njcurveball]

So if the takeout is reduced 3%. And there are ten horses in the race that would mean everyones odds would go up 3/10ths of a percent. On the tote board. So it will really not be noticable once so ever.

.


If the return to 10 winning tickets is $82 (18% takeout), it becomes $85 at 15% takeout. At 12% it becomes $88. So going from $8.20 per ticket to $8.80 per ticket is not a huge odds jump, agreed.

My point was that the crowd needs to be educated to bet straight wagers again. If I ran the track, the last thing I would want is to attract more money to pick 4, pick 5, and pick 6 pools. Imagine a few winners at $10,000 each, how much of that money is going to "churn".

Track Management is different than casino management. When you bring $100 to a casino, it is not going to churn. If you bet $2,000 at the Blackjack table and go broke, the casino makes $100.

However, at the track if you churn $2,000 through the windows with your $100, then the track makes a percentage on the entire amount.

Too many casual bettors today treat the track like the casino and this is the fault of track management. Advertising lower takeout is a great thing, but doing it on bets that have no real impact on your handle is just stupid in the long run.

[point given]

15% takeout on bets that win very infrequently is not much of a help to the average handicapper.

Yes, it is sweet getting $1,100 back instead of $1,000. But you still have to cash the ticket to gain this benefit.

The track would be better served to reduce takeout to 12% on straight bets and have the crowd pump their money into them. The churn would increase handle much more than doing it on a single exotic bet that there will only be a few winners cashing.

You would still be better off playing your $10 or $20 to win on these races. Imagine having a $100 winner and not hitting the pick 5! Tough ride home that day if you didn't have any money to win on that horse.

Monmouth has alot of small fields and short prices. Horizontal is often the only way to go there, other than turf races. the p4 and p5 (50 cent bet) often pay well when you beat a single fave with a price horse. On the same topic, i think delaware also has a low takeout on p4, as well as laurel ? Since simos are often up to 90% of the pools, going after the simo bettor horizontally must be doing something for their handle, NO ?

[BillW]

If the return to 10 winning tickets is $82 (18% takeout), it becomes $85 at 15% takeout. At 12% it becomes $88. So going from $8.20 per ticket to $8.80 per ticket is not a huge odds jump, agreed.



I disagree. If your ROI goes from $0.98 to $1.048 you would think it was huge. :)

[njcurveball]

going after the simo bettor horizontally must be doing something for their handle, NO ?

Not really. Remember they only get a negotiated amount, around 2.5 to 3.5% for their signal. Think more Wal Mart here than Trump.

The biggest jump in profits would come from on-track handle, which I understand most tracks have lost interest in increasing. Getting a simo better to pump a few extra thousand into their pick 4 or pick 5 isn't going to bump them up on the ladder a whole lot.

However, if you have 10,000 in attendance and each of them bet just $20 more, that is a $200,000 handle increase of which a much larger percentage (around 15%) stays in your pocket.

I do understand the problem is short fields and short favorites at the track. But that is for a different thread.

Jim

[njcurveball]

I disagree. If your ROI goes from $0.98 to $1.048 you would think it was huge. :)


Spot on call Bill. :ThmbUp:

[GameTheory]

So if the takeout is reduced 3%. And there are ten horses in the race that would mean everyones odds would go up 3/10ths of a percent. On the tote board. So it will really not be noticable once so ever. Most odds would stay the same it is true. But horses on the bubble between one range and another would go up -- a 5/2 might go to 3-1, etc. Longshots would go up several points. This will inevitably attract a few more dollars. Will it attract 3% more? I don't know. But it will also attract it into other pools. Plus the winners will have a few more bucks to put back into the system. If you lower the takeout 3% in the win pool, you've only got to make that 3% back for it to be worthwhile. The question is -- is the takeout at or near the optimal point where the track is making the most it can make? I'm not asking racetracks to sacrifice a dime -- I want them to make the max. But I think they'll do it with a lower takeout. That's the idiotic thing -- we all want the tracks to succeed and we're begging them to take our money, but they don't seem to want it.

And as avid handicappers I was talking about understanding takeout. I would say a very few percentage of everyday track bettors understand it.
Maybe 10%.Fair enough. Probably true.

[point given]

Not really. Remember they only get a negotiated amount, around 2.5 to 3.5% for their signal. Think more Wal Mart here than Trump.

The biggest jump in profits would come from on-track handle, which I understand most tracks have lost interest in increasing. Getting a simo better to pump a few extra thousand into their pick 4 or pick 5 isn't going to bump them up on the ladder a whole lot.

However, if you have 10,000 in attendance and each of them bet just $20 more, that is a $200,000 handle increase of which a much larger percentage (around 15%) stays in your pocket.

I do understand the problem is short fields and short favorites at the track. But that is for a different thread.

Jim

yes. correct. Which brings up a pet thought of mine. why not have different takeouts for ontrack and offtrack betting. ? Say 12% on track 15% off. Of course the simo places have their player rewards systems for this, but it is geared to the whales at 5 % or so, while small fry get 1 %. With your example modified, 1000 bettors increasing $200 would accomplish the same. The casinos seem alot more player friendly than the racetracks.

[Cangamble]

Bottom line is that the public will cash more, and have more money to last longer.
How many people go through their bankroll early? How many are reduced to next to nothing and pass the next day or next few days?
John Q Public has only so much to LOSE, or I should say, so much they are willing to lose to gambling.
Let them last longer, and the only thing that will most likely happen is that they might increase the amount they are willing to lose. And if they go more, they are likely to involve new people in the game (friends, family, etc. will wind up going because if racing is a priority for one person, it is usually infectious).

[rrbauer]

Not really. Remember they only get a negotiated amount, around 2.5 to 3.5% for their signal. Think more Wal Mart here than Trump.

The biggest jump in profits would come from on-track handle, which I understand most tracks have lost interest in increasing. Getting a simo better to pump a few extra thousand into their pick 4 or pick 5 isn't going to bump them up on the ladder a whole lot.

However, if you have 10,000 in attendance and each of them bet just $20 more, that is a $200,000 handle increase of which a much larger percentage (around 15%) stays in your pocket.

I do understand the problem is short fields and short favorites at the track. But that is for a different thread.

Jim

You think more people are going to pay the going rate to attend the races live so that they get x% deducted from their bets instead of y%? And, how are you going to get 10,000 in attendance unless you're Saratoga or Del Mar?

Monmouth has alot of small fields and short prices. Horizontal is often the only way to go there, other than turf races. the p4 and p5 (50 cent bet) often pay well when you beat a single fave with a price horse. On the same topic, i think delaware also has a low takeout on p4, as well as laurel ? Since simos are often up to 90% of the pools, going after the simo bettor horizontally must be doing something for their handle, NO ?

Takeout on Delaware Park Pick-bets is 25%. Laurel had a promo rate at one time on their P4 but the stated rate is 25.8% same as their Tri and Super.

[njcurveball]

And, how are you going to get 10,000 in attendance unless you're Saratoga or Del Mar?

.


I cannot speak for other tracks, since I do not know them as well as I know ACRC. Without concession stands, tote board, lights, and room anywhere other than the track apron, this track got 6,000 in attendance.

People still want to go to the track, but have been given a cold hard slap in the face by the management. I think many areas could do very well with 60 day meets. I do not know about year round racing being able to support such large crowds on a regular basis.

It amazes me a track like Monmouth cannot get 10,000 on a Saturday when they could do 15,000 or more 20 years ago.

If most of us did half at our job of what we did 20 years ago, we would be shown the door quickly. Yet track management seems to prosper by grabbing the "low hanging fruit".

Rather than fix up the track, ACRC has auctions in the parking lot, they rent space to the Electric Company, and charge car dealers to use their lots for overflow. They have probably chased away 60% of the simulcast crowd and really do not care.

Program prices go up to the point where people do not buy one or look in the trash hoping to find one. They stopped giving out sheets with program numbers on them long ago.

The whole point is that racing is not the "dead horse" Management makes it about to be. Check out any big day and you will find plenty of people heading to the track.

Monmouth has a wine tasting day and I think the Meadowlands does as well. Yeah! That is what is going to attract your long term customer. And then they put in beer rules as well. Slap the returning customer in the face enough and he doesn't come back.

Invite people who never attend to come out and they might ONE TIME. It is a recipe for declining profits in a decade where more and more casinos are springing up to grab the people you are pushing out the door with your foot up their A$$.

Jim

[rrbauer]

And, how are you going to get 10,000 in attendance unless you're Saratoga or Del Mar?





I left out Keeneland....my bad!

[o_crunk]

23k @ MTH on sunday.

MTH could draw that on any regular weekend if they took their head out of their....

[onefast99]

23k @ MTH on sunday.

MTH could draw that on any regular weekend if they took their head out of their....
Agree, but some of the people that are running this facility are locked in the mid 80's. The NJSEA needs to go up to Woodbine to see how a track should be run.

[o_crunk]

NJSEA needs to be thrown out - as long as the state runs the track it will never be fixed.

[onefast99]

Where is the advertising for this track? I remember years ago the Meadowlands ran ads and billboards that said "racing under the moon" it was catchy as night racing was still doing well at the Big M. I have never seen an ad on my local cable or a mailer or anything for Monmouth Park. No one knew about dollar days until that day. This all needs to be changed the facility has too much history to be letting a bunch of "time has passed them by" individuals run MP.

[1st time lasix]

I make it a point to seek out pick fours with a lower "take out" for consideration. Always striving to cashof course...but if not..... i would rather support any track with a lower take. Last year Ellis had a 4% take on the pick four....i played it whenever I had the opportunity and some handicapping insight away from a favorite in one or two legs Here's the thing: since i handicapped those races..... i also played a few exactas and/or win tickets. Never would would have played any of them before the low rake on the pick four got my attention. I shy away from any exotic when the take is above 20%. In the long run....I think it helps my return. The bulk of my plays are exotics.....trying to win a lot with a little. To each his own.

[rrbauer]

I make it a point to seek out pick fours with a lower "take out" for consideration. Always striving to cashof course...but if not..... i would rather support any track with a lower take. Last year Ellis had a 4% take on the pick four....i played it whenever I had the opportunity and some handicapping insight away from a favorite in one or two legs Here's the thing: since i handicapped those races..... i also played a few exactas and/or win tickets. Never would would have played any of them before the low rake on the pick four got my attention. I shy away from any exotic when the take is above 20%. In the long run....I think it helps my return. The bulk of my plays are exotics.....trying to win a lot with a little. To each his own.

That's a good start. I tried the ELP P4 for a couple weeks but some of those races were impossible, IMO, to handicap. So I went to betting nothing at zero takeout!

[Robert Fischer]

If horseracing were run like a serious business, tracks would occasional hire an actuary to calculate optimum takeout for each pool. (Not to mention,parking & concession prices as well)

In the meantime we get "The Matrix":D

[BombsAway Bob]

I make it a point to seek out pick fours with a lower "take out" for consideration. Always striving to cashof course...but if not..... i would rather support any track with a lower take. Last year Ellis had a 4% take on the pick four....i played it whenever I had the opportunity and some handicapping insight away from a favorite in one or two legs Here's the thing: since i handicapped those races..... i also played a few exactas and/or win tickets. Never would would have played any of them before the low rake on the pick four got my attention. I shy away from any exotic when the take is above 20%. In the long run....I think it helps my return. The bulk of my plays are exotics.....trying to win a lot with a little. To each his own.
I tried in vain the past two years to convince Suffolk Downs Honchos to reduce takeout on their one Pick-4. Suffolk toyed with the idea of a 15% Pick-4 T/O on MassCap Day last year. I told them this is the ONE day of the year it's pretty meaningless! The 18,000 on hand last year for MassCap Day are mostly non-players who have a hard enough time picking ONE horse to win, much less 4 in a row!
FTL, your experience is EXACTLY the reason Suffolk should offer a "teaser" takeout on their Pick-4. If you handicap the P4 sequence, chances are good you may follow up your P4 play with wagers on the individual legs! Suffolk currently has only two Pick-3's on a card (R3-4-5 & last 3 of day), & they have pools often UNDER $5K! Pick-4 pools struggle to break the $10-$12k mark. Reducing these takeouts from 26% to 15% will actually cost the track little..but it will make the play more attractive to off-track bettors that are regular players of the bet(where Suffolk gets 80% of their total wagers)

[eastie]

i love betting against the 80% of people who aren't supposed to know more about suffolk than you and I Bob. Today's card is juicy. If the pick 4 was 10 %, plenty of new players would have a look every day who ordinarily wouldn't

[Stevie Belmont]

Fathers Day, last year they were close to 30,000 on a sunny day.

23k @ MTH on sunday.

MTH could draw that on any regular weekend if they took their head out of their....

[onefast99]

Fathers Day, last year they were close to 30,000 on a sunny day.
And favorites wasnt open yet or the other OTW in Toms River, that takes a few thousand away from the track attendance easily. The economy was better also. So all things not being equal it was a good crowd.

[alhattab]

Fathers Day, last year they were close to 30,000 on a sunny day.

Attendance last year was 23,975 and total handle was about $4 million ($1.3 on track). Bad weather/off turf killed this year's handle and probably sent some home early. Or they lied about the attendance (you always hear stories about track employees spinning the turnstiles).