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jasperson
06-12-2008, 11:33 PM
I just finished reading an article by Andy Beyers in the drf. In it he did criticized the ride of Kent Desmeaux in the Belmont. To his credit he didn't say that his (Kent's) performance was the result of BB'S poor performance. Personally I am sick and tired of people with so called knowledge of horses racing criticizing a jockeys performance with out any knowledge of what happens sometimes in racing. First and foremost the horse doesn't tell you before hand what he is going to do in the race. In Kent's defenses BB had settled in the derby and preakness and didn't try to ram to the lead. If BB had told Kent prior to the race that he was rank and wanted to be on the lead Kent probably would have went to the lead him. To illustrate this point I was driving my trotter that I bought as a weanling, broke and trained her and drove her in a lot of her races. I drew the 5 hole with her in a field that I knew she could beat to the lead. I tried for the lead and around the first turn I was lapped on a horse for last place. I pulled her back to last and their she grasp the bit and wanted to go so I let her. We finished 3rd and since it was a 2 heat race she went to the front and won the next heat. Horses have a mind of their own and they don't always communicate this to the driver or jockey. This is just one race to illustrate the horse doesn't always tell the jockey or driver his intentions. Every jockey and driver will tell you the same thing if they know what his horse or somebody else's horse is going to do they would have change they ride or drive. I could cite many more examples form my own experiences or as told to me by other drivers, but this is enough. Am I guilty of the same judgement and the answer is yes. I still try to give the jockey and driver the benefit of the doubt.

As far is the race goes I don't think BB was ready for 1 mile race. Dutrow was between a rock and a hard place. Should he give BB longer and tougher works between the Preakness and the Belmont and risk aggravating his quarter crack or work him lightly and risk not have him ready for that distance. I am not going to criticize his decisions because that is what he is getting paid to do and he knows more about the horse than any of us. My main point is that things look a lot difference to you when you are in the heat of the action. Just ask any jockey or driver what they would have done different knowing what they know after the race and they will tell sometimes a lot.

PaceAdvantage
06-13-2008, 01:27 PM
So, part of your reasoning is that in the three weeks between the Preakness and Belmont, Big Brown lost at least 10-15 lengths to this weak field of runners, simply because he wasn't trained correctly?

I can't buy that for a second. A horse does not loose that much ability in only three weeks.

Moyers Pond
06-13-2008, 02:01 PM
So, part of your reasoning is that in the three weeks between the Preakness and Belmont, Big Brown lost at least 10-15 lengths to this weak field of runners, simply because he wasn't trained correctly?

I can't buy that for a second. A horse does not loose that much ability in only three weeks.

Dutrow deserved much more blame than Kent. Dutrow was responsible for having the horse ready to run a 12f race and he was a complete failure. He was empty and that is a trainers problem, not a jockeys.

Lose The Juice
06-13-2008, 02:10 PM
Come on... let's be fair now; had the race been at 7f, Big Brown would have been right in the running. :eek:

PaceAdvantage
06-13-2008, 02:31 PM
I asked a serious question. I would appreciate a serious response.

I'll ask again....Did Big Brown lose at least 10-15 lengths to this WEAK Belmont Stakes field of runners, simply because he wasn't trained correctly?

Dave Schwartz
06-13-2008, 03:59 PM
PA,

Understanding why a horse ran so badly when he had previously run so well is not exactly my speciality. If this was a $16k claimer we'd simply say, "He didn't run, oh well." But it wasn't. It was a BIG race - likely the biggest of all three involved (horse, rider, trainer).

Was the ride poor? Sure it was.

Was the horse off form? Apparently, yes.

Was the trainer responsible for that? Of course, who else would it be.

Put those three together and you've got your 10-15 lengths.


Perhaps the funniest part is that of the three, one has been a gentleman (rider) but blamed the horse and one has been a jerk (the trainer) and blamed the rider.

The only one who has had nothing to say is the horse. :lol:


Dave

Greyfox
06-13-2008, 04:22 PM
In the 2004 Athens Olympics, the overwhelming odds on favorite to win the ladies marathon was Paula Radcliffe. http://www.paularadcliffe.com/

England's greatest female runner was considered to be a lock. She had trained exceedingly well and was never in better shape. With her country's hopes on the line she "hit the wall" and failed to finish. The Athens heat did her in.

It was her biggest disappointment ever. She subsequently went on to win, if memory serves me correctly, the 2007 New York marathon.

Three races in 5 weeks, may have been Big Brown's enemy. Anyone who has ever been a runner will concur that recovery time for different athletes varies.
The horse, in addition to the poor ride, seemed out of gas in the far turn. Perhaps there was more energy in the tank, we'll never know.

cj
06-13-2008, 05:17 PM
The heat did Radlciffe in, she wasn't ready for that.

It is the only marathon she didn't win, and she didn't finish.

delayjf
06-13-2008, 07:19 PM
Put those three together and you've got your 10-15 lengths
Keep in mind the horse was eased on the turn - it would not have been 15 lengths if he'd been allowed to run on.

Shenanigans
06-13-2008, 07:44 PM
I asked a serious question. I would appreciate a serious response.

I'll ask again....Did Big Brown lose at least 10-15 lengths to this WEAK Belmont Stakes field of runners, simply because he wasn't trained correctly?

Yes.

Shenanigans
06-13-2008, 07:45 PM
As I stated in other posts - BB lost because he ran out of gas. He was not fit for 1 1/2 miles. That is usually the trainers fault.

classhandicapper
06-13-2008, 08:39 PM
I about as "anti bounce theory" as a person can get. However, it's obvious that horses eventually get worn out by tough races and go off form. The Triple Crown is a demanding series of races. Both TG and RAGs were pretty much waiting for this horse to bounce badly. He didn't do it in the Preakness and I'm not sure if that's the real reason for the Belmont either. That's what they believe. However, he's not the first top notch horse I've seen totally fall apart after an exceptionally demanding race or series of tough races. Some of them either get hurt or just don't fire at all.

I think it's quite possible that the combination of several tough closely spaced races, missing 3 days of training and being trained lightly after that, in combination with a suspect ride/being strangled when rank combined to produce a terrible effort.

Greyfox
06-13-2008, 09:24 PM
The heat did Radlciffe in, she wasn't ready for that.

It is the only marathon she didn't win, and she didn't finish.


Yes. The heat did Paula in. In her biography though she adds:

"In a training session soon before Athens, a slight niggle in her leg developed into a debilitating pain, causing her leg to seize up completely. As the weeks progressed, the injury didn't improve. If anything, things were getting worse and time was running out. Paula's physical therapist, Gerard Hartman, prescribed a course of anti-inflammatories to help ease the swelling. But as the dosage increased, Paula's stomach started to feel the effects.
Race day soon arrived and although Paula felt drained and nowhere near well enough to race, this was the Olympics - a once-every-four-years opportunity and the biggest stage on which any athlete could compete. She wasn't going to give in without a fight. Choosing not to break away in usual fashion, she sensibly decided to stick with the leading pack. But sure enough, the stomach pains returned and the pain in her leg was very much present. After 20km, the Japanese athlete Mizuki Noguchi made a break and a few others tentatively pushed the pace in order to stay in contention. Visibly in pain, Paula kept giving everything she had in order to get through the race, desperately trying to take in every last drop of her carbohydrate drinks from the drinks-stations along the way. With just 6km to go however, she was running on empty and had nothing left, forced to pull out."

Paula can tell us why she had to drop out. Unfortunately, Big Brown can't.

ezrabrooks
06-13-2008, 10:02 PM
I asked a serious question. I would appreciate a serious response.

I'll ask again....Did Big Brown lose at least 10-15 lengths to this WEAK Belmont Stakes field of runners, simply because he wasn't trained correctly?

Train correctly...or able to train at all? That was BB's problem...not the ride.

tmh
06-14-2008, 12:27 AM
to all you keyboard trainers. how many of you have ever trained a horse let alone been around the barn to see training and understand it. you all are telling me a 3yo colt runs a mile and a quarter, two weeks later runs a mile and three sixteenths, and in three weeks his not fit to run a mile and a half! i guess that means when a football player misses a week of practice he shouldnt play because he is not fit. fitness had NOTHING to do with this. track condition, jockey error, bad trip maybe, the horse had a bad day.

Greyfox
06-14-2008, 12:48 AM
to all you keyboard trainers. how many of you have ever trained a horse let alone been around the barn to see training and understand it. you all are telling me a 3yo colt runs a mile and a quarter, two weeks later runs a mile and three sixteenths, and in three weeks his not fit to run a mile and a half! i guess that means when a football player misses a week of practice he shouldnt play because he is not fit. fitness had NOTHING to do with this. track condition, jockey error, bad trip maybe, the horse had a bad day.

Well don't let fear and common sense hold you back.
You seem to be saying that you are "not a keyboard trainer."
I can't even train my cat let alone a horse.
So speak freely.
I and probably others need to learn what you have to expand on.
But expansion is needed and requested.
Thankyou,
Greyfox

jognlope
06-14-2008, 12:25 PM
Lasix is a diuretic, to given on a hot humid day, go figure...yet all but one got Lasix that day?

jasperson
06-14-2008, 11:13 PM
First let me say I know nothing about training a tb for a race like the Belmont or any other tb race only what I have read from the drf pundits and other sources. They have said that Woody Stephans and Nick Zito drill their horses hard for the Belmont. Woody saddle 5 winners of the Belmont and Nick Zito 2 with a lot of 2nds and thirds. I know that some of these winners did not compete in any of the triple crown races and were pointed just for the Belmont. Some skipped one of the other races in the triple crown. Why is it that we must throw somebody under the bus for BB poor performance? Couldn't BB just have a bad day? As for kent's ride BB was rank coming out of the gate and Kent could have let him go to the front and then when he ran out of gas we could criticised him for not rating him. Excuses for a bad performance.
1. Bad ride by the jockey
2. He couldn't get a hold of the track
3. The trainer didn't have him ready
4. Somebody bumped him
5. This was the best one I ever heard. " A bumble bee stung him on the nose."

PaceAdvantage
06-15-2008, 02:02 AM
As I stated in other posts - BB lost because he ran out of gas. He was not fit for 1 1/2 miles. That is usually the trainers fault.Hell, he ran out of gas well before the 10 furlong mark, did he not? How is it possible that a healthy, fit racehorse, who three weeks earlier crushed a similar field going 9.5 furlongs, and two weeks prior to that, crushed a stronger field going 10 furlongs, suddenly loses 10-15+ lengths of ability simply due to what you perceive to be improper training?

I can easily buy your argument if he starts fading at the quarter pole and loses by a couple lengths, but this was obviously not the case.

rastajenk
06-15-2008, 07:52 AM
If nothing else, this race should kill the useless proposition that a slow gallop to the finish line in an easy win, in order to "leave something in the tank" for the next race, has any benefit at all. Lots of pixels were spent after the Preakness praising Kent D for his foresight in saving some of Brown; maybe he should have been run full out all the way. Big Races are unique, individual events; the tanks should always be topped off, regardless of what's left in it from the previous outing.

jasperson
06-15-2008, 09:36 AM
Hell, he ran out of gas well before the 10 furlong mark, did he not? How is it possible that a healthy, fit racehorse, who three weeks earlier crushed a similar field going 9.5 furlongs, and two weeks prior to that, crushed a stronger field going 10 furlongs, suddenly loses 10-15+ lengths of ability simply due to what you perceive to be improper training?

I can easily buy your argument if he starts fading at the quarter pole and loses by a couple lengths, but this was obviously not the case.
Maybe he couldn't get his milkshake in the detention barn.:D

WJ47
06-15-2008, 09:27 PM
Dutrow looked nervous as heck right before the race. He snapped at the reporters and lacked his usual confidence. I think he knew something was wrong. Big Brown was acting up in his stall earlier, maybe a bad reaction to something?

Kent's ride was horrendous. Dutrow's bragging was even worse. Honestly, when Casino Drive was scratched, I didn't think there was any way possible for Big Brown to lose against this weak field of horses. I really hated to see Dutrow get the first Triple Crown in 30 years, but it really seemed like it would happen. I am still stunned with the results of the Belmont. It seems bizarre.

Valuist
06-15-2008, 10:05 PM
Let's say that Big Brown lost the Preakness. Let's say he ran a giant race but was wide and checked. T-Graph and the Rags gave him by far the superior number but he lost. I think Dutrow and IEAH never would've run in the Belmont. The ONLY reason they ran was because they had to. Nobody wins the first two legs and passes. I realize Spend a Buck won the Derby but he passed the Preakness as well but that's because he was going for the Garden State bonus. But with no Triple Crown looming, who would send a son of Boundary (who I believe never won past 6 furlongs....maybe DrugS can verify that) 1 1/2 miles on the dirt? Lets face it; we don't breed horses to run 12 furlongs on dirt so we shouldn't be so surprised when the Da Taras, Commendables and Saravas of the world win this bizarre race.

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2008, 01:02 AM
Boundary never won beyond a sprint distance because he was never raced beyond a sprint distance.

Ghostzapper never won beyond a sprint distance either, until he turned four-years-old, but that's because they never raced him at a route until that time. If GZ had been retired as a three-year-old, and then himself sired a Big Brown-type of horse, well, you get the point....

Plus there is lots of stamina in Big Brown's pedigree....you just have to look past Boundary....

lamboguy
06-16-2008, 09:12 AM
mr prospector's best distance was sprinting, another one that i happen to know a little about, distorted humor, was a sprinter.

the best saying in breeding remains: BREED THE BEST TO THE BEST AND HOPE FOR THE BEST

ezpace
06-17-2008, 12:14 AM
ca. bred for to much speed(not BB)and poisoned the breed with

lasix,bute,sublimaize,cocaine derivaties,heroin derivatives,huge doses of antiseptics which result in something totally different than their normal use,

european human heart attack medicine .gelatin,food ADDITIVES, COLORING,

BAD WATER.......


banamine, steroids.. chemically treated oats, hay ,alfalfa, and being around
Toxic barns 23++ hrs a day,dust,,,etc etc etc.. surprising they run at all ...

witchdoctor
06-17-2008, 10:11 AM
the best saying in breeding remains: BREED THE BEST TO THE BEST AND HOPE FOR THE BEST

The best quote on breeding was by Bull Hancock who said "Breed back to the best blood of the sire's dam."

boomman
06-17-2008, 12:33 PM
to all you keyboard trainers. how many of you have ever trained a horse let alone been around the barn to see training and understand it. you all are telling me a 3yo colt runs a mile and a quarter, two weeks later runs a mile and three sixteenths, and in three weeks his not fit to run a mile and a half! i guess that means when a football player misses a week of practice he shouldnt play because he is not fit. fitness had NOTHING to do with this. track condition, jockey error, bad trip maybe, the horse had a bad day.

tmh (alias one lifetime post even though grey fox asked you a question) You are telling folks on this board that fitness had nothing to do with this????? Let me get this straight: The horse is dead tired at the 1/4 pole (empty as Kent D put it) and that had NOTHING to do with fitness? I think you're going to have to try that argument somewhere else, and that's even after I acknowledged with PA how much ground Kent D lost to put the horse in that position in the first place. So because of that (and other factors) the horse WAS on empty, and that seems to me that had SOMETHING to do with fitness...:D

WJ47Dutrow looked nervous as heck right before the race. He snapped at the reporters and lacked his usual confidence. I think he knew something was wrong. Big Brown was acting up in his stall earlier, maybe a bad reaction to something?

Kent's ride was horrendous. Dutrow's bragging was even worse. Honestly, when Casino Drive was scratched, I didn't think there was any way possible for Big Brown to lose against this weak field of horses. I really hated to see Dutrow get the first Triple Crown in 30 years, but it really seemed like it would happen. I am still stunned with the results of the Belmont. It seems bizarre.

WJ: Right on the button! Dutrow's shirt looked like he had dove into one of the water troughs pre race!!

Boomer

Valuist
06-18-2008, 11:08 PM
Boundary never won beyond a sprint distance because he was never raced beyond a sprint distance.

Ghostzapper never won beyond a sprint distance either, until he turned four-years-old, but that's because they never raced him at a route until that time. If GZ had been retired as a three-year-old, and then himself sired a Big Brown-type of horse, well, you get the point....

Plus there is lots of stamina in Big Brown's pedigree....you just have to look past Boundary....

If I may quote that one politician who's name I've forgotten, "I've seen Ghostzapper, and Boundary was no Ghostzapper." Not even in the same solar system.

NYPlayer
06-18-2008, 11:49 PM
Hell, he ran out of gas well before the 10 furlong mark, did he not? How is it possible that a healthy, fit racehorse, who three weeks earlier crushed a similar field going 9.5 furlongs, and two weeks prior to that, crushed a stronger field going 10 furlongs, suddenly loses 10-15+ lengths of ability simply due to what you perceive to be improper training?


I think the answer is pretty obvious. Big Brown had physical problems, namely the hoof issue, that kept him from racing much as a 2yo. Dutrow was able to get him healthy enough for a solid spring campaign during which the horse showed tremendous ability. However, after running his peak effort in the Kentucky Derby, he was physically vulnerable, and after the Preakness, his ailments resurfaced. The quarter crack itself may have only been symptomatic of some larger issue. This is the same basic develop-peak-bounce form cycle that happens with many horses. It's just that each one will have a different level of reaction which depends on the physicality of the horse.

PaceAdvantage
06-20-2008, 02:26 AM
If I may quote that one politician who's name I've forgotten, "I've seen Ghostzapper, and Boundary was no Ghostzapper." Not even in the same solar system.A comparison of the two in terms of ability was never the intent. Simply a situational comparison.