Desormeaux,Bad ride period.

[larman]

Big Brown was probly never going to win at a mile and ahalf anyway
because of breeding limitations. But watch the replay and see kent D.
strangling the horse to the first turn,then trying to get off the rail
twice instead of either sending him or biding his time was a prime example
of terrible riding,he took all the starch out of big brown. with the slow
fractions this horse should have been on the pace.Maybe because Kent D.
blew his last shot at a triple crown by moving far too earrly he
was determined to sit chilly at any cost saturday?

[King Ritchie]

Big Brown was probly never going to win at a mile and ahalf anyway
because of breeding limitations. But watch the replay and see kent D.
strangling the horse to the first turn,then trying to get off the rail
twice instead of either sending him or biding his time was a prime example
of terrible riding,he took all the starch out of big brown. with the slow
fractions this horse should have been on the pace.Maybe because Kent D.
blew his last shot at a triple crown by moving far too earrly he
was determined to sit chilly at any cost saturday?

I Agree - bad ride. He looked over 5 times before he moved Brown to the outside so it is obivious that the stragety was to get the horse to the outside. Who knows what actually happened to Brown when Kent took a hold of him and slammed him against the outside horse. Then he proceeds to ride the horse 7 wide all the way down the backstretch. A requirement for my jockeys is that have an IQ greater than 80. I wouldn't ride this whimp on my $5,000 claimers.

I had $20 to win on the winner. I will tell you my secret for picking this horse later....................

[badcompany]

The excuse train keeps rolling. So, the horse had a little trouble on the first turn, big deal a 1/5 shot should be able to overcome that. He was 3 wide for the entire Derby and that didn't seem to be a problem.

Big Brown was in perfect position and came up empty. That's all.

[BIG HIT]

I didn't like fact trainer took him off lasix instead of his usual doseage.Think that was reason for poor race.True not greatest ride but he did say horse was push button which he was not.And glad to see he thought of horse frist and pulled up.

[rokitman]

I don't see what all the speculation is about. It seems quite obvious to me that it was the The Curse of Commentator that produced this result. The Racing Gods waited very patiently for the absolute best time to exact their revenge.

Bravo, boys, bravo.

[the little guy]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?

[Greyfox]

The ride was poor. The possibility that the horse was hit in the leg with a "stinger" in the first two furlongs when he ran too close to another horse is possible. Taking him wide around the first turn cost valuable lengths.
But when the time came to try and even compete for the lead, there was no gas in the tank.
If there was no gas in the tank, you might want to look at the man who puts the fuel in. Maybe in different States, he uses different "gas."

[Pace Cap'n]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?

Bravo, boys, bravo.

!

[Tom]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?

Shaq.

[garyoz]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?

No one.

He is a lightly raced, unsound horse who tried to run 3 races in 5 weeks. Perhaps he only got as far as he did thanks to Dutrow's magic (aka PEDs).

Never ceases to amaze me how horseplayers overestimate the importance of jockies, esp. on a circuit like NYRA.

Dutrow was classless and certainly not a good representative of the Sport of Kings. At least KD faced the media.

[SmartyMarty]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?

Banana Nose woulda won by 10...

happy now?

[Spendabuck85]

I didn't like fact trainer took him off lasix instead of his usual doseage.Think that was reason for poor race.

Big Brown was on Lasix Saturday. Perhaps you meant steroids.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

It was a bad ride but the jockey probably figured he was on a horse that was too good so he was happy to sit wide and not risk getting boxed in

The bottom line though is that it was a disgraceful performance from a supposed top line horse. I have never seen a worse performance from a major player in a big race anywhere in the world. Even with a bad ride he should have been able to battle bravely on for a respectable finish position

[ezrabrooks]

Watching live, I thought KD has screwed the pooch...but, after looking at the replay, it was more just racing luck. Not the greatest of trips..but not all KD's fault, and nothing that a TC Champion shouldn't be able to overcome.

[headhawg]

Watching live, I thought KD has screwed the pooch...but, after looking at the replay, it was more just racing luck. Not the greatest of trips..but not all KD's fault, and nothing that a TC Champion shouldn't be able to overcome.Finally, a more reasonable viewpoint...

[lcohen]

the same tactic that was employed in the preakness

[whyhorseofcourse]

Shaq.
lol

Bad ride...
KD does it so many times though. If he would ride out through every race he would be a great jock. I have seen him lose at the wire so many times for giving up on horses its not funny.

[DeanT]

Finally, a more reasonable viewpoint...

Thank the lord. Only in our present society do we have to look for constant blame. I liked the old days when a horse raced poorly and the class veterans like Woody Stephens would say "horse raced bad, what can you do?"

I've seen 4 claimers at Thisteldown have happen what Big Brown had happen and still come on to win.

Big Brown lost the race because he raced horribly, why people can't accept that is beyond me.

[Trax21]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?

Michelle Nevin.

Funny that Dutrow did say that the only two times BB looked bad was when Kent worked him out. Said he was all over the track. A mess.

I think BB is trying to tell us something.

[westny]

It was a bad ride but the jockey probably figured he was on a horse that was too good so he was happy to sit wide and not risk getting boxed in

The bottom line though is that it was a disgraceful performance from a supposed top line horse. I have never seen a worse performance from a major player in a big race anywhere in the world. Even with a bad ride he should have been able to battle bravely on for a respectable finish position

This has to be one of the stupidiest posts I've ever read on a racing forum.

The horse IS not a CAR. The horse did NOT want to run. The horse was NOT going to run. Maybe you expected Dmx to "pack the horse" on his back and run on to YOUR a "respectable finish" :lol:

[Tarver]

The headline on Brisnet website for the Belmont states," Da`tara FOILS Big Browns Triple Crown in Belmont". How did Da`tara FOIL Big Brown when Big Brown doesn`t even finish the race???

To foil something means to," to prevent from being successful".

Brisnet`s headline should have said. " Kent Desormeaux FOILS Big Browns Triple Crown in Belmont.

[dastar]

There was no gas in the tank. Big Brown came up empty, period.

There may be a good chance that 3 races within 5 weeks had a lot to do with it.

When certain media were comparing this horse to Secretariat, that was the biggest joke of all, then Dutrow proclaimed him a "Guaranteed" Winner. That topped them all.

Rick may have learned a lesson, wait till the horse crosses the finish line first before opening your mouth.

dastar

[46zilzal]

I I have never seen a worse performance from a major player in a big race anywhere in the world. Even with a bad ride he should have been able to battle bravely on for a respectable finish position
Find the Breeder's Cup Classic of 1988 at Churchill. That distinction belongs to Julie Krone on Forty Niner. Absolutely the worst I have seen in over 40 years.

[badcompany]

Thank the lord. Only in our present society do we have to look for constant blame. I liked the old days when a horse raced poorly and the class veterans like Woody Stephens would say "horse raced bad, what can you do?"

I've seen 4 claimers at Thisteldown have happen what Big Brown had happen and still come on to win.

Big Brown lost the race because he raced horribly, why people can't accept that is beyond me.

Finally, some sanity.

Had the horse won, nobody would've even mentioned the little bit of trouble he had early in the race.

[jotb]

I would like the head on video view if anyone has it because the way I viewed the race it seemed to me Eibar Coa hurt KD twice in the race. When DA' TARA crossed over in front of Big Brown KD went right to a hole that was closed up immediately by Eibar Coa. Then down the backside Eibar Coa has Tale Of Ekati in the 6 path keeping Big Brown further out. I know Da' Tara was in the 3 path on the lead but you would think at a distance like that you would try and save as much ground as possible. The pan shot always looks so much different and that's why I would like to see the head on shot. I know one thing for sure and that is Kent originally wanted to shoot for the hole to be alongside of Da' Tara and the hole closed quickly by Eibar Coa. Whether Coa did it intentionally or not it did happen and it certainly made a hugh difference in the race.

Joe

[Norm]

Banana Nose woulda won by 10... happy now?

:D Ole 'Banana Nose' always said he could have won more races,
but they made him stay on the horse ! :lol:

[Observer]

There is no way of knowing just how much Kent Desormeaux's ride took out of Big Brown, and I know I may be mocked for my beliefs on just what went wrong. But after watching many views, many times over from the ABC coverage, one this is clear to me: Desormeaux definitely hurt his horse's chances from the start. Just how much is nearly impossible to say without personally knowing the horse's disposition.

Some horses have an amazing ability of perception, almost as though they can read the rider's mind. It's an indescribable feeling when a horse moves from a thought crossing your mind. On the flip-side, it's a horrible feeling when a horse is traveling wonderfully, then by some innocent miscommunication between horse and rider, there is a communication failure that can last for countless minutes before a peaceful understanding can resume. Experiences such as these are tough to translate to those who have never had the pleasure to encounter them first hand.

With 24 years of riding experience, though admittedly never in a race (except for the occasional run through a field), I was furious with what I saw unfolding, and became even more so with each pass of the video replay from the various angles provided from ABC.

Kent was hell-bent on getting to the outside, this is made clear until he actually gets to the outside.

At the break, with getting outside on Kent's mind, it's almost funny how Big Brown breaks and takes a few steps sideways, to the outside. They straighten for a couple of strides before Kent, for some insane reason, tries to turn right - right into Tale of Ekati!!

At that moment, nearly crashing into Tale of Ekati, Big Brown's head goes straight up into the air as he weaves left toward the rail and his expression changes. This is now a completely different horse than we've seen before.

Frantically looking for a way off the rail, Kent is now hanging and yanking on an understandably rank Big Brown. The rider finally gets what he wants, by practically forcing his way out while putting his horse in major danger.

After an opening like that, not many horses would trust their rider, especially in the next minute or so.

This was NOT the same incident as in the Preakness, where they more easily got to the outside. In the Preakness, there was no conflict of communication between horse and rider. There was no anxiety through the opening furlongs, there was no frantic panic to get off the rail. There was a patience in the Preakness that was painfully lacking in the Belmont.

Of course hindsight is 20-20, and yes, it's very easy to criticize the rider, but there are so many more things a rider can do wrong than do right.

Big Brown certainly did not need the extra obstacle created by Kent, and failure to communicate has been known to destroy many things. In this case, for me, it was a Triple Crown bid.

[cj]

Top stuff Observer. I think I was the first to post here that the ride was horrendous. Was it the only thing? Probably not, and we'll never know, but it is possible. He certainly didn't do the horse any favors.

[DeanT]

Big Brown certainly did not need the extra obstacle created by Kent, and failure to communicate has been known to destroy many things. In this case, for me, it was a Triple Crown bid.

If a horse can't handle that bumping, we should all be thankful he lost, because he does not deserve to be called a Triple Crown Champion.

[rrbauer]

Top stuff Observer. I think I was the first to post here that the ride was horrendous. Was it the only thing? Probably not, and we'll never know, but it is possible. He certainly didn't do the horse any favors.

What were his choices?

[cj]

His choices were not to force the horse to get outside until there was an opening.

[lcohen]

Oh how easy it is to analyze something after the fact and determine what could have been done differently. If only we all had this option for different decisions in our lives.

[ezrabrooks]

I am sure the ride has been dissected some where on this board..but the way I saw it, KD gave up going to the lead with D'Tara, and attempted to get outside, but was boxed in by Tale of Ekati.. BB now in passing gear, with no place to go, was forced up the rear of the leader and had to be checked...by this time he was totally boxed on the rail, and couldn't get clear on the outside, until he muscled his way out, bumping Anak Nakal going into the first turn.. Only fault I would give KD was that he should have just stayed on the rail..but, hindsight is always pretty good.

[Wickel]

KD's only chance to escape the early congestion was to contest the pace early on then drop back into a comfortable position. When he took hold and tried to get outside, there was nowhere to go. It was actually great race riding by his fellow riders to keep him in a box. Faced with that situation, KD should have kept his course on the rail, and I guarantee it would have opened up going into the backstretch. And contrary to what I'm reading in this thread, he should have ridden the horse out to the finish. He mentioned more than once that he felt there was nothing physically wrong with the horse. There was no need to pull him up other to to cover up his horrendous ride. Think of all the show bettors that got screwed. One other thing--and I hate to even consider this--but all the exotic payoffs were unusual IMHO. I heard or read somewhere that the moneyline on BB dropped precipitously. Let's hope he didn't like the footing, was tired or just threw in a clunker.

[Observer]

If a horse can't handle that bumping, we should all be thankful he lost, because he does not deserve to be called a Triple Crown Champion.

Big Brown was asked to make a right turn into another horse .. basically asked to play demolition derby .. not sure just how many Triple Crown winners could have handled being asked to do such a thing just a few jumps out of the Belmont Stakes gate.

As for the other question .. as to what Kent should have done .. how about just let the horse bound out of the gate and secure position on the rail. Let the other horses work to play catch up. Turcotte didn't snatch up on Secretariat .. Affirmed and Alydar basically had a match race for the final 6-7 furlongs of their marathon. Sometimes riders just need to know how to have faith in their own horses, and ride accordingly.

[onefast99]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?
No other rider would of done anything different. The horse had a bleeding problem before and the heat must of gotten to him. No one is perfect and this horse had a great run until this race.

[rokitman]

Perhaps BB succumbed to the weight of the PETA members rooting for him to break down so they could get the attention turned back on them, now in full vitriolic, hysterical fervor. That may sounds facetious but, as I'm sure some of you know, there are forces at work in our Universe far beyond our current knowledge, and I do believe if enough people wish bad things, or a few people possessing the venom of many, they can make it happen. PETA was not there hoping for a beautiful day of togetherness among God's creatures. They got the result they wanted but without the catastrophic injury they were hoping for.

For those thinking I am nuts- which is true but in a different way than you are probably thinking right now- you should investigate David Bohm and Karl Pribram.

[DeanT]

Big Brown was asked to make a right turn into another horse .. basically asked to play demolition derby .. not sure just how many Triple Crown winners could have handled being asked to do such a thing just a few jumps out of the Belmont Stakes gate.


I'd say all of them overcame more than that. Great horses overcome. Good horses look for excuses.

Afleet Alex fell on his face in the Preakness and still won. Big Brown should be able to handle a little bumping for four strides and a take up if he wants to win a TC race.

[rokitman]

I'd say all of them overcame more than that. Great horses overcome. Good horses look for excuses.

Afleet Alex fell on his face in the Preakness and still won. Big Brown should be able to handle a little bumping for four strides and a take up if he wants to win a TC race. :D :D :D

[DeanT]

That's what the greats do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op78_8CYZ0Y

Glad I took the time to watch that again. It puts it in a lot of perspective regarding Kents ride.

Here's the picture of it.

http://www.isolaracing.se/Bilder/Afleet%20alex.jpg

[ezrabrooks]

I'd say all of them overcame more than that. Great horses overcome. Good horses look for excuses.

Afleet Alex fell on his face in the Preakness and still won. Big Brown should be able to handle a little bumping for four strides and a take up if he wants to win a TC race.

Good point with the AA example. BB's problems were all from the gate to the first turn...a great one would have gathered himself and prevailed..

Ez

[JBmadera]

Now it's getting interesting:


http://www.drf.com/news/article/95324.html

[Trax21]

Now we know what Mr. Dutrow thinks of the ride. He may be looking for another rider, but I guess it's not his call.

[46zilzal]

"All the jockeys in the Belmont knew that. So when he scrambled out of there again Saturday, they dropped over on him right away and got him in a box."

They sure did. And that's when all the trouble began. Big Brown wanted his head, but Desormeaux put a double lock on him. With the horse swinging his head, to and fro, anxious to go on, Desormeaux yanked him outside, slamming hard into Anak Nakal, then, incredibly, Desormeaux took him so wide it's a wonder they didn't send out a search party for him.

The cops should have ticketed him for reckless driving.

From, of all places, Fox sports.

[OTM Al]

All this amazes me. A bad ride may make a horse lose or have to work too hard for a win, but it certainly doesn't make the horse have so little left with that far left to go, especially when the competiton is supposed to be so far below par. He was beat by at least 10 and probably more had he tried to run on and nothing was going to change that. Why can't people accept that it just wasn't his day and move on?

[46zilzal]

I agree with you. I was just noting what the connections were saying.

He was not looking well (energy wise) BEFORE the race.

[Trax21]

Here's a link and part of Kent's interview with Dan Patrick at SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/more/06/09/desormeaux.dp/index.html). Obviously before the Dutrow article at DRF:

DP: So, two races that you know of that they'll race him, are you going to be the jockey for those two races?

KD: Yes I will, Dan. There's definitely no one pointing a finger in my direction. In fact, I've been complimented by the trainer and the owner. Believe me, I was spanking on him, encouraging him to run until I was last. Icabad Crane came inside me, bumped me out of the way, and proceeded on his endeavor to win the race, but at that point I was already like seventh and backing up fast.

[jotb]

There is no way of knowing just how much Kent Desormeaux's ride took out of Big Brown, and I know I may be mocked for my beliefs on just what went wrong. But after watching many views, many times over from the ABC coverage, one this is clear to me: Desormeaux definitely hurt his horse's chances from the start. Just how much is nearly impossible to say without personally knowing the horse's disposition.

Some horses have an amazing ability of perception, almost as though they can read the rider's mind. It's an indescribable feeling when a horse moves from a thought crossing your mind. On the flip-side, it's a horrible feeling when a horse is traveling wonderfully, then by some innocent miscommunication between horse and rider, there is a communication failure that can last for countless minutes before a peaceful understanding can resume. Experiences such as these are tough to translate to those who have never had the pleasure to encounter them first hand.

With 24 years of riding experience, though admittedly never in a race (except for the occasional run through a field), I was furious with what I saw unfolding, and became even more so with each pass of the video replay from the various angles provided from ABC.

Kent was hell-bent on getting to the outside, this is made clear until he actually gets to the outside.

At the break, with getting outside on Kent's mind, it's almost funny how Big Brown breaks and takes a few steps sideways, to the outside. They straighten for a couple of strides before Kent, for some insane reason, tries to turn right - right into Tale of Ekati!!

At that moment, nearly crashing into Tale of Ekati, Big Brown's head goes straight up into the air as he weaves left toward the rail and his expression changes. This is now a completely different horse than we've seen before.

Frantically looking for a way off the rail, Kent is now hanging and yanking on an understandably rank Big Brown. The rider finally gets what he wants, by practically forcing his way out while putting his horse in major danger.

After an opening like that, not many horses would trust their rider, especially in the next minute or so.

This was NOT the same incident as in the Preakness, where they more easily got to the outside. In the Preakness, there was no conflict of communication between horse and rider. There was no anxiety through the opening furlongs, there was no frantic panic to get off the rail. There was a patience in the Preakness that was painfully lacking in the Belmont.

Of course hindsight is 20-20, and yes, it's very easy to criticize the rider, but there are so many more things a rider can do wrong than do right.

Big Brown certainly did not need the extra obstacle created by Kent, and failure to communicate has been known to destroy many things. In this case, for me, it was a Triple Crown bid.


Hello Observer:

Big Brown's disposition after watching the Triple Crown Races is to be placed outside of horses. Why was that the case? Was it because he hated the dirt or was he shy of the rail? It could also be that Big Brown liked being outside of horses because he needed something to run at.

Yes, Big Brown did come out some at the break and KD straighted him out but it was KD that wanted the spot where Tale of Ekati was moving to. The hole closed up immediately by Coa and that's why Big Brown found himself right off Da' Tara heels. Let's put it this way Big Brown's head was right over Da' Tara ass. The next thing KD did was take a vigorious hold dropping 2 to 3 lengths in a blink of an eye behind the leader and then takes Big Brown out once again and bumps into Anak Nakal. Pulling on the reins like that could have caused a dorsal displacement of the soft palate or all that bumping could have kocked the wind out of him.

Joe

[PaceAdvantage]

I'd say all of them overcame more than that. Great horses overcome. Good horses look for excuses.

Afleet Alex fell on his face in the Preakness and still won. Big Brown should be able to handle a little bumping for four strides and a take up if he wants to win a TC race.Great horses do not always overcome. Ask Secretariat. Ask Holy Bull. Ask any of the great ones of the past that have lost badly....

Is Alysheba or Sunday Silence considered great? Of course they are. They both lost the Belmont, some say, because they could not run on Lasix in NY that day. Are they any less great? Should they have overcome that handicap?

Kent D. messed up BB big time in the beginning of the Belmont. The fact that Jeanine Edwards reported before the Belmont that Dutrow banned Kent from working BB in the mornings because KD and BB "never got along in the morning" tells you all you need to know about exactly why BB stopped running for Kent in the Belmont.

BB, with his pedigree should have easily gotten 1 1/2 miles, especially against that group of 3yos...look up his pedigree

http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

And until they report that something physically wrong was found with the horse post-Belmont, I have to maintain that Kent's ride had a lot to do with what happened out there.

[ezrabrooks]

Great horses do not always overcome. Ask Secretariat. Ask Holy Bull. Ask any of the great ones of the past that have lost badly....

Is Alysheba or Sunday Silence considered great? Of course they are. They both lost the Belmont, some say, because they could not run on Lasix in NY that day. Are they any less great? Should they have overcome that handicap?

Kent D. messed up BB big time in the beginning of the Belmont. The fact that Jeanine Edwards reported before the Belmont that Dutrow banned Kent from working BB in the mornings because KD and BB "never got along in the morning" tells you all you need to know about exactly why BB stopped running for Kent in the Belmont.

BB, with his pedigree should have easily gotten 1 1/2 miles, especially against that group of 3yos...look up his pedigree

http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

And until they report that something physically wrong was found with the horse post-Belmont, I have to maintain that Kent's ride had a lot to do with what happened out there.

All of the above, if they would have made it to the gate, would have destroyed this Belmont Field...but, your point is taken..

[so.cal.fan]

Joe,
as usual, you have given an astute observation of that race.
We totally agree with you.

[SmartyMarty]

There is no way of knowing just how much Kent Desormeaux's ride took out of Big Brown, and I know I may be mocked for my beliefs on just what went wrong. But after watching many views, many times over from the ABC coverage, one this is clear to me: Desormeaux definitely hurt his horse's chances from the start. Just how much is nearly impossible to say without personally knowing the horse's disposition.



Incredible post..
watched the same ABC replay in Hi-Def..
but I could never have described it as well...
Yeah, I also noticed the change in BB's expression...

thanks..

[JustRalph]

I watched the clips on PTI today and was kind of surprised the way big brown was still shaking his head while approaching the finish line after the race. This is a smart horse in my opine. He didn't seem happy about something and I am recalling what Bob Baffert said about War Emblem. He made the comment that War Emblem eventually decided that he was only going to run when he wanted to and Baffert had to tread lightly and try not to push him, but coax him to train. I think BBrown had a mental problem, not a physical one. High Drama.............

[DeanT]

Kent D. messed up BB big time in the beginning of the Belmont. The fact that Jeanine Edwards reported before the Belmont that Dutrow banned Kent from working BB in the mornings because KD and BB "never got along in the morning" tells you all you need to know about exactly why BB stopped running for Kent in the Belmont.



Sheesh, you woulda never thought he won the first two legs and was undefeated with Kent on his back.

Imagine if they had a real rider, he woulda ran at 150 beyer in those races :D

[Suppositionist]

The other question is; how many other bad rides were there? Half those other jocks seemed like they were just sitting there waiting to see what Big Brown was going to do coming out of the turn. That one or two seconds of indecision while they were realizing that Big Brown was not the horse to worry about today, cost some of them dearly. How many would have run the race differently if they thought Da Tara was the real horse to beat? They fell for the hype also it seems.



I’m surprised at Dutrow’s comments though. Don’t they go over these things and make a plan for all possible scenarios? What to do if you get slammed at the break, what to do if they box you in coming out of the turn, what to do with a fast or slow pace etc. I should think at that level they would have such plans. It sounds like Dutrow and Desormeaux either didn’t have such plans or had completely different opinions on which page of the plan they should have been on. In that case, Dutrow should defer to the guy who was at the controls. He’s in the best position to assess the situation. If you don’t trust him to make those decisions then he shouldn’t be on your team. Dutrow didn’t appear to have a problem with him in the first two TC races. I guess it might be the frustration of the disappointment talking.



I don’t know if it’s been mentioned elsewhere but I heard Desormeaux say big Brown wasn’t handling the footing very well. He said the track wasn’t holding him up. That seems like the most plausible reason why the horse didn’t run his race. The horse wasn't for this course. If the footing didn’t feel right coupled with a jock sending him mixed messages, getting bounced around and the longer distance perhaps confusing him, the horse’s head was probably all twisted up to the point where he said “I give” and quit running. "Lets do this again some other day when everybody’s got there poop in a group"..



S

[DeanT]

It's a fairly simple question.

Past the three sixteenths and after when BB had clear sailing thru those pedestrian splits, out in the clear, did anyone think that this horse was losing this race?

Did anyone at that time say "what a bonehead ride" and BB is losing this race because of it?

If you did, then I have no quarrel with the opine that the ride cost him the race. If you did not and you thought the horse was airing and winning the TC, then you are simply a quintessnetial Monday morning quarterback.

If the race was in-running at betfair, the sharpest bettors in the world would have had Big Brown at 1.08 to win the race anytime after the half, because they knew the first q bumping was inconsequential and he was in perfect position and form. If you were not them, good on ya, cuz I sure as hell woulda had him 1-10 fair odds, too.

If you were them, then you have absolutely no right to question the ride.

[cj]

I was calling the ride idiotic before they hit the turn. As I've said, I have no idea if that cost him the race, but I doubt alone it did. He sure didn't do the horse any favors though.

[SmartyMarty]

It's a fairly simple question.

Past the three sixteenths and after when BB had clear sailing thru those pedestrian splits, out in the clear, did anyone think that this horse was losing this race?

Did anyone at that time say "what a bonehead ride" and BB is losing this race because of it?

If you did, then I have no quarrel with the opine that the ride cost him the race. If you did not and you thought the horse was airing and winning the TC, then you are simply a quintessnetial Monday morning quarterback.

If the race was in-running at betfair, the sharpest bettors in the world would have had Big Brown at 1.08 to win the race anytime after the half, because they knew the first q bumping was inconsequential and he was in perfect position and form. If you were not them, good on ya, cuz I sure as hell woulda had him 1-10 fair odds, too.

If you were them, then you have absolutely no right to question the ride.

your reasoning makes NO sense.

it's perfectly natural to think it's a bonehead ride in YOUR scenerio..


If you smell smoke from your car, then it disappears and you safely complete the trip, chances r u forget about the whole thing..

but if u don't complete the trip and you end up burning to death , folks will rightfully investigate..

then THAT smoke (the early bad trip)was really sucky
right?

think about it buddy..

[DeanT]

I was calling the ride idiotic before they hit the turn. As I've said, I have no idea if that cost him the race, but I doubt alone it did. He sure didn't do the horse any favors though.

Good on ya Cj.

I agree with that, as well. I never said it was a perfect ride by any means and didnt cost him a couple of lengths perhaps. I am just flummoxed how people can equate that bumping with losing a race by about 20. If Alysheba and Afleet Alex can go to their knees and win a TC race, I would expect BB to with that. I expected him to win by 15. Maybe with the traffic, 12. To me that was a horrid field and he is a good horse.

[Wickel]

I see that Dutrow is even questioning the ride now (DRF site). Reports are he and KD haven't spoken since the race. It could get ugly.

[tleusin]

On a speed favoring track, with the 1 hole, and with more natural speed than any other horse in the race how could you not think the ride was poor from the moment the gate broke. I was watching the race at work and saying What is KD doing? I do not know if the ride cost a triple crown or not; nor do I believe that BB is the second coming of Big Red but I do think he deserved a better effort from K. D. Lastly I have long believed that is difficult for a jockey to win a race but it is easy for a jockey to lose one.

[samyn on the green]

You jockey cappers have it all wrong. The horse has one workout before a 12 furlong test of a champion. He is cooped up in the stall nursing a 1/4 crack when he should be working on his fitness. His training for the Belmont was like playing tic tac toe to study for the SAT. He was woefully prepared, horribly short and visibly rank.

Desormeaux's ride was perfect, he tried to settle down a rank beast and avoid a hot speed duel with a need the lead 38-1 bomb. I am sure if he hooked up with the winner and dueled, and it would have been a helluva duel, the same people bashing Desormeaux for rating would have bashed him for dueling. The horse was empty after a mile. He was not ready it was as simple as that. There is a life after jockey capping guys, and you can get there.

[menifee]

Sometimes when I read the posts on this board, I cannot believe people are watching the same race.

I'm not a BB fan or a Dutrow, but after watching the race 100 times, I'm convinced the ride cost him the Belmont.

Horses just don't decide to run. There are a few things that could cause a horse to race like that. 1. Injury 2. Bleed 3. Speed horse that needs the lead (War Pass in TB Derby) 4. The horse just becomes uncomfortable.

In this case, KD strangled the horse for the first furlong. Bumped the horse soundly into Tale of Ekati and then Anak Nakal. Then he tried to rate the horse. Not suprisingly, the horse decided at that point that it was not going to run and just gave up. The horse wanted to run out of the gate and KD stopped it.

In essence, KD decided he knew more than the horse. If you watch a lot of races (from stakes races to 5k claimers), this happens quite often. Especially at long distances. If a horse is a need the lead horse or is bumped and crowded or is strangled by his jockey, it will not fire regardless of how talented it is. Today's rider does not seem to understand that. In Sec. preakness, the horse decided to circle the whole field in the first half mile after starting last. KD would have had the foot in the brakes and absolutely destroyed the horse. In the Belmont, Sec. decided to engage Sham and run 3/4 in 1:09. Everybody thought Turcotte was crazy, but in hindsight it looks like by allowing the horse to do his own thing, it was a pretty smart decision. I'm not saying BB is Sec., but just using these rides as examples.

Do me a favor and go back and watch the Florida Derby. Da Tara who does not get the lead, absolutely quits. My instinct is that if BB got the lead in that race or even if he engaged Da Tara and engaged in a speed duel, we would have a triple crown winner.

[samyn on the green]

In this case, KD strangled the horse for the first furlong. Bumped the horse soundly into Tale of Ekati and then Anak Nakal. Then he tried to rate the horse. Not suprisingly, the horse decided at that point that it was not going to run and just gave up. The horse wanted to run out of the gate and KD stopped it.

In essence, KD decided he knew more than the horse. If you watch a lot of races (from stakes races to 5k claimers), this happens quite often. Especially at long distances. If a horse is a need the lead horse or is bumped and crowded or is strangled by his jockey, it will not fire regardless of how talented it is. Today's rider does not seem to understand that. In Sec. preakness, the horse decided to circle the whole field in the first half mile after starting last. KD would have had the foot in the brakes and absolutely destroyed the horse. In the Belmont, Sec. decided to engage Sham and run 3/4 in 1:09. Everybody thought Turcotte was crazy, but in hindsight it looks like by allowing the horse to do his own thing, it was a pretty smart decision. I'm not saying BB is Sec., but just using these rides as examples.

Do me a favor and go back and watch the Florida Derby. Da Tara who does not get the lead, absolutely quits. My instinct is that if BB got the lead in that race or even if he engaged Da Tara and engaged in a speed duel, we would have a triple crown winner.I know what you are talking about, sometimes a need the lead horse is strangled back and quits meekly, but Big Brown is not need the lead. He rated just fine in the last two races. Dueling in the Belmont would not have helped him win. Especially with a short horse like Big Brown. Why does everyone second guess Desormeaux and want him to engage in speed duels?

Big brown went 45 and change in the Florida Derby, no way he goes that fast and wins the Belmont. Big Brown quit after stalking 48 and change and he is not a need the lead type, he rated in the Derby and Preakness when he was in form. Go and watch the 2004 Belmont to see what happened to Smarty Jones dueling on the lead. No way Big Brown wins, and his rankness is not from the ride, it was from the lack of fitness and too much nervous energy.

[DeanT]

That would have been funny.

If Kent got in a speed duel in a mile and a half Belmont he would have been the laughing stock of the jockey world for the next 100 years.

Instead he has a few guys on an internet chat board slagging him, and an egg-on-his-face trainer looking to blame anyone but himself or the horse. I'm sure he'd take the latter any day.

No one seems to look at the horse in this situation (other than Samyn here). He was a freak in the Dbarn, kicking the stalls (which he never did once in his career) and on the other thread the picture of him breaking showed he was keyed up. Any jock would have trouble settling that, imo. Regardless, maybe Samyn has made a good point.

[menifee]

I know what you are talking about, sometimes a need the lead horse is strangled back and quits meekly, but Big Brown is not need the lead. He rated just fine in the last two races. Dueling in the Belmont would not have helped him win. Especially with a short horse like Big Brown. Why does everyone second guess Desormeaux and want him to engage in speed duels?

Big brown went 45 and change in the Florida Derby, no way he goes that fast and wins the Belmont. Big Brown quit after stalking 48 and change and he is not a need the type, he rated in the Derby and Preakness when he was in form. Go and watch the 2004 Belmont to see what happened to Smarty Jones dueling on the lead. No way Big Brown wins, and his rankness is not from the ride it was from the lack of fitness and too much nervous energy.

You are right. He is not a need the lead speed horse, but I've seen this happen with closers and stalkers. Go back and watch GG's ride on Hard Spun in the Belmont last year. This is a perfect example. The horse wanted to run and he strangled the horse for 3/4 of a mile. Then suddenly, when they turned for home, the horse had nothing. I'm not saying Hard Spun would have won that race, but he was much better than shown in that race. His race in the BC Classic proved that.

I don't think the horse had a lack of fitness. I just think the horse wanted to run out of the gate. If Da Tara engaged and tried to go ridiculous fractions, I think the horse would have allowed KD to ease it back. Watch CM on Touch Gold in the 97 Belmont if you want to see how this is done. But to strangle the horse and give it a few body blows during that process is absolutely absurd. Coa and Garcia absolutely schooled KD in that race. I know if Prado was on that horse, it would not have happened.

[menifee]

That would have been funny.

If Kent got in a speed duel in a mile and a half Belmont he would have been the laughing stock of the jockey world for the next 100 years.

Instead he has a few guys on an internet chat board slagging him, and an egg-on-his-face trainer looking to blame anyone but himself or the horse. I'm sure he'd take the latter any day.

No one seems to look at the horse in this situation (other than Samyn here). He was a freak in the Dbarn, kicking the stalls (which he never did once in his career) and on the other thread the picture of him breaking showed he was keyed up. Any jock would have trouble settling that, imo. Regardless, maybe Samyn has made a good point.

It's not just a few guys on an internet chat board. I don't who the unnamed trainers are but there seem to be a few of them:

http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing/story/8225186/Among-trainers,-Big-Brown's-jockey-gets-blame

[DeanT]

Yep, and there are others who say steroids and sickness and all the rest like all the commentary after the Belmont. And there are others saying the ride had nothing to do with it.

We can pick and choose all you want to prove a case, or disprove one.

I choose common sense. An undefeated horse who got synidicated for 50 million dollars would have ran a 2:33 Belmont if ridden out - yep 2, 3, 3. Some can blame the jockey if they want - maybe they would have a point if Oprah was riding him for a quality horse like that to go that slow - I will blame the horse. 99 times out of 100 it is the horse who is the reason for that piss-poor a performance. And if you have ever owned a horse before you know as I do, 99 times out of 100, people will blame someone other than the horse (it starts with the jock, then goes to the trainer, then to an externality like the track.... it is the rule of excuse for 100 years in this game), especially when there are vested interests at stake.

Hell, even BB's owner and trainer cant even decide to be on the same page on what to blame. It's like a congressional hearing on Iraq.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/10/sports/othersports/10racing.html?ref=othersports

[samyn on the green]

99 times out of 100, people will blame someone other than the horse (it starts with the jock, then goes to the trainer, then to an externality like the track.... it is the rule of excuse for 100 years in this game), especially when there are vested interests at stake.The owner pointed to the track as an excuse (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/10/sports/othersports/10racing.html?_r=2&ref=sports&oref=slogin&oref=slogin), claiming the track was deep and tiring. That is complete BS, this was the biggest speed bias of the meet (http://gregcalabrese.blogspot.com/2008/06/belmont-was-not-slow-tiring-track-on.html) with fast times all day. If Big Brown was ready the track was groomed with him in mind.

[DeanT]

This says a lot about the game and each interest protecting their slice. Very nice piece.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/horseracing/belmont/ny-spwally0610,0,3270302.column

For the people who control Big Brown, the only race left is the match race between Rick Dutrow, the trainer, and Kent Desormeaux, the jockey, to determine which gets to keep his job.

That was obvious Monday when, in the age-old tradition of racetrack losers, each took turns pointing fingers and assessing blame for Big Brown's disastrous day at Belmont Park, when the horse that couldn't lose turned into the nag that couldn't even finish.

Samyn: It's classic old school. Read Dutrow's comments immediately after the race - he was happy with KD. Now 36 hours later, what changed? Protecting himself from criticism changed. The owner just spoke about the track being deep. He has not been in the biz long enough to play the game I guess. He should have went with the ol' high white count :)

[WinterTriangle]

Only fault I would give KD was that he should have just stayed on the rail..but, hindsight is always pretty good.

Dutrow specifically said, before the race, that was the plan. Break out of the gate and go to the lead. .

Therefore, it would have required no *hindsight* would it? :D

Desormeaux didn't stick to the plan. For whatever reason.

If he is telling the truth, BB slipped out of the gate and by then they had lost some ground and couldn't go to the lead.

If he isn't telling the truth, then he blew the previously-decided-upon game plan, and then made an excuse for doing so.

_________

For those of you saying BB couldn't overcome adversity----would you combine adversity AND directions from the jockey not to go? Because the ONE THING that has always been said about BB........how tractable he is. He takes directions. That is his personality.

So, now, suddenly, an extremely tractable horse becomes contrary? I don't buy it.

BB got pulled back so many times he didn't want to take another correction for trying to go out again. IF he is the tractable horse everyone says he is, (and which he has been) then he *would* follow the cues from his rider. BB didn't know *the reasons*....all he knew was that he was being told not to go. Over and over.

And if Kent did have reasons.....and some seem to think so.......there was no way for Big Brown to know them. :)

If BB ignored the jockey, he would've been called a stubborn dishonest horse.

He obeys his jockey, and is now called a loser who can't overcome adversity.

No win situation for Big Brown!

He will face DaTara in the

[PaceAdvantage]

Hell, even BB's owner and trainer cant even decide to be on the same page on what to blame.The only reason Ivarone is unwilling to blame Kent outright is because it was Ivarone who overrode Dutrow, putting Kent on the horse in place of Prado in the first place.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sheesh, you woulda never thought he won the first two legs and was undefeated with Kent on his back.

Imagine if they had a real rider, he woulda ran at 150 beyer in those races :DFrom what was reported about Kent and BB in the mornings, it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

NYRA Vet said nothing wrong with BB. Bramlage said nothing wrong with BB. Dutrow and company say nothing wrong with BB (and they could have taken the easy way out -- elevated blood count, mucous, blah blah blah)....so where then does that leave us?

Something happened in the horse's head...and it was something that, according to Dutrow and Jeanine Edwards, has happened before, in the morning, with Kent in the saddle.

And for the record, I enjoy debating stuff like this. I like the Monday-morning quarterbacking. Those who find this kind of thing foolish and non-productive are certainly free not to participate.

[samyn on the green]

So why was Big Brown so settled in his other races with Kent Desormeaux up? It was the same guy up in the Belmont as was up in Florida, Kentucky and Maryland. The jockey factor had not changed but what had changed was his training, his soundness and he was deeper into his form cycle. I think the jockey had nothing to do with it. From what was reported about Kent and BB in the mornings, it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

NYRA Vet said nothing wrong with BB. Bramlage said nothing wrong with BB. Dutrow and company say nothing wrong with BB (and they could have taken the easy way out -- elevated blood count, mucous, blah blah blah)....so where then does that leave us?

Something happened in the horse's head...and it was something that, according to Dutrow and Jeanine Edwards, has happened before, in the morning, with Kent in the saddle.

And for the record, I enjoy debating stuff like this. I like the Monday-morning quarterbacking. Those who find this kind of thing foolish and non-productive are certainly free not to participate.

[PaceAdvantage]

So why was Big Brown so settled in his other races with Kent Desormeaux up?Because in those races, BB never had to deal with Kent taking his head away from him!

I found it very interesting that Dutrow kicked Kent off of BB in the mornings. I think investigating this fact further may shed some light on the whys and hows of the Belmont. It's the entire key to answering the question of whether or not the ride impacted the Belmont to the point where it cost BB the race.

[ezrabrooks]

[QUOTE=WinterTriangle]Dutrow specifically said, before the race, that was the plan. Break out of the gate and go to the lead. .

I doubt that 'go to the lead' was the plan ... I think the plan was to track the speed..on the outside, and that plan was foiled from the get go.

[DeanT]

Still unable to find anything physically wrong with Big Brown, Dutrow turned his attention to jockey Kent Desormeaux and the ride he gave Big Brown.

I wouldn't call him that. More like "I know Saturday I said that Kent did not do anything wrong but Sunday they shifted all the blame to me with steroids, me telling everyone he'd win by a football field, calling the other horses also rans, so I decided to shift the blame to someone else to get that heat off me"

To me a Dr Suess book is harder to read than this guy :)

PA: No kidding eh. Much more fun to talk about things like this. Perhaps more fun than many of the discussions if he won by ten.

[delayjf]

The horse wanted to run and he strangled the horse for 3/4 of a mile.
True enough, but BB was not rank for 3/4 of a mile, he settled down once clear on the turn and showed no signs of fighting KD down the back stretch.

[DeanT]

This is an interesting comment in the Big Brown piece. I wonder if it is a back-hand way to say Zito doesnt think much of Dick and his actions.

Zito said he was able to enjoy this Belmont victory more than Birdstone's in 2004, when he actually apologized to the connections of Smarty Jones for ending that colt's Triple Crown bid.

"I was elated," Zito said. "I was jumping up and down because Big Brown wasn't Big Brown. He wasn't making his move, and I said, 'He's not making his move and we're coasting pretty good.' I started getting real excited

[delayjf]

I posted this on another thread but think it's applicable here as well.

Considering this, they ran the mile in 1:38 and BB could not keep up, the final two fractions were run in @ 25 2/5 and 26 2/5, I'm hearing that the Beyer will probably be in the 90's. Heck I believe even War Emblem managed to make a run at the lead entering the stretch after practically falling to his knee's. BB never made a move at ANY stage of the race against the slowest pace this horse has ever faced. If this horse could not sustain a run for the lead at that slow of a pace - what makes you think he could have dueled with DT and come out any better?

Looking at his PP's - his pace and speed figures have been in decline for the past three races, the Raggies might have concluded that he was coming off a 4 race version of the 0-2-X pattern, but instead of getting a rest, he was asked to run a distance he was not breed for within three weeks, while missing some training. Of course the entire racing / handicapping world ignored those facts because he'd won the derby and the preakness "easily". Maybe the heat and humidity, loss of training, lack of breeding, and possible reclining form got the best of him.

[Observer]

Obviously there will be 2 distinctly different views on this .. either Kent did wrong by Big Brown, or Big Brown should have overcome.

Comparing Big Brown to Afleet Alex is horrendously off. Rose did nothing to take Alex's faith and trust away .. instead, Rose stayed balaced on his horse, stayed out of his way, and the horse's confidence was bolstered. On the other hand, Big Brown's own jockey asked him to make a right turn into a competitor just 20 strides out of the gate .. and when Big Brown protested the request, his own jockey went to ripping his mouth apart for a couple of furlongs before ultimately sending him over the heels of yet another horse.

Anyone who has ever spent time in the saddle working with horses knows a split-second rider error can cause minutes, days or weeks of needed repair. With all that went wrong, it's understandable that in the final minute and a half - or so - there was not going to be a joint resolution for a positive outcome.

And yes, as all this was unfolding I knew it was no good, and as they entered the backstretch I knew there was hardly a chance Big Brown could over come what had just happened.

[badcompany]

And yes, as all this was unfolding I knew it was no good, and as they entered the backstretch I knew there was hardly a chance Big Brown could over come what had just happened.

People seem to be forgetting that the horse was a one to five shot. He should be MUCH the best. If he couldn't overcome a bit of trouble in the 1st 1/4 mile of the race, he was WAY overbet.

[DeanT]

And yes, as all this was unfolding I knew it was no good, and as they entered the backstretch I knew there was hardly a chance Big Brown could over come what had just happened.

That's quite a good trait to have, so kudos for knowing that.

I saw a horse loping along as happy as a clam and as relaxed as me in the lazy boy in the exact same spot that he won the other two legs. I thought he was winning by a football field against that sad bunch. Obviously I was wrong.

You guys are really going to enjoy betfair whenever it gets here in North America. You could make some serious in running money with that insight. You could have bet $1,000 against BB at the half for a measely $80 of liability. Hell of a good score.

[delayjf]

his own jockey went to ripping his mouth apart for a couple of furlongs before ultimately sending him over the heels of yet another horse
Did he in fact rip his mouth apart? And how can you blame KD for BB being so keen that he almost ran up another horse' heels - wasn't KD trying to restrain BB from doing just that? As far as the bump with the other horse entering the turn, I didn't notice that BB broke stride at all, if anything it had a bigger impact on the horse that got bumped.

I'm not stating as fact that you are wrong here, I simply see other reasons as to why he ran poorly, ultimately we will never know for sure why BB didn't run his race. If Cordero were still riding I'll bet we would find out if BB can take a bump or two. If that's all it takes to get into BB's head, then don't be surprized if he doesn't get "bumped" again.

[cj]

That's quite a good trait to have, so kudos for knowing that.

I saw a horse loping along as happy as a clam and as relaxed as me in the lazy boy in the exact same spot that he won the other two legs. I thought he was winning by a football field against that sad bunch. Obviously I was wrong.

You guys are really going to enjoy betfair whenever it gets here in North America. You could make some serious in running money with that insight. You could have bet $1,000 against BB at the half for a measely $80 of liability. Hell of a good score.

Regardless of what happened prior to that point, I'd lay that $80 every time.

[so.cal.fan]

I don't buy into the KD bad ride theory.
The Triple Crown is the problem.
In England they run the 2000 G. at One Mile second week in May.
The Derby, Epsom Derby is the 2nd week in June at One Mile and one quarter.
Our Ky. Derby the first week in May at 1 1/4 miles is too tough on young three year olds.
I believe the future performances of the vast majority of these horses who compete in the TC validate my theory.

[DeanT]

Regardless of what happened prior to that point, I'd lay that $80 every time.

He was 1.30 before the race, so clearly less than that was fair odds when he was free and clear. I am not sure what I would have had him fair odds at the half or three q's. Maybe 1.12. Maybe 1.10. I guess something like that.

Regardless, chit happens in a race. No such thing as a sure thing, no matter how good they look as BB proved.

[garyoz]

Obviously there will be 2 distinctly different views on this .. either Kent did wrong by Big Brown, or Big Brown should have overcome..

How about another view that BB is not a very sound horse that was held together by PEDs and was asked to do too much in 5 weeks?

[46zilzal]

How about another view that BB is not a very sound horse that was held together by PEDs and was asked to do too much in 5 weeks?
PEDs?

Is that some common knowledge abbreviation like ZIP code or COP?

[cj]

Performance Enhancing Drugs.

[BeatTheChalk]

True enough, but BB was not rank for 3/4 of a mile, he settled down once clear on the turn and showed no signs of fighting KD down the back stretch.

What ?? Just wondering if u saw the Replay ? If he wasn't rank .. then we
need a new word. I may be wrong ( and I usually am ) but BB did not
look like a horse who was in hand and going nicely.
Maybe the word " Rank " is too much. But if you meant to imply that
BB was Just fine...may I thoughtfully .. disagree. :bang: :kiss: :eek:

[tholl]

I don't buy into the KD bad ride theory.
The Triple Crown is the problem.
In England they run the 2000 G. at One Mile second week in May.
The Derby, Epsom Derby is the 2nd week in June at One Mile and one quarter.
Our Ky. Derby the first week in May at 1 1/4 miles is too tough on young three year olds.
I believe the future performances of the vast majority of these horses who compete in the TC validate my theory.


LOL--not to be a smart alec but the Epsom Derby is always (nowadays) run the FIRST Saturday in June at ONE MILE AND A HALF.

Regardless, that's a irrevalent comparison.

[46zilzal]

LOL--not to be a smart alec but the Epsom Derby is always (nowadays) run the FIRST Saturday in June at ONE MILE AND A HALF.


Run right here: the home of Epsom salts.

[thespaah]

Big Brown was probly never going to win at a mile and ahalf anyway
because of breeding limitations. But watch the replay and see kent D.
strangling the horse to the first turn,then trying to get off the rail
twice instead of either sending him or biding his time was a prime example
of terrible riding,he took all the starch out of big brown. with the slow
fractions this horse should have been on the pace.Maybe because Kent D.
blew his last shot at a triple crown by moving far too earrly he
was determined to sit chilly at any cost saturday?
I t was just a matter of time...Richard, tell us something we don't already know..
http://sports.yahoo.com/rah/news?slug=ap-bigbrown-dutrow&prov=ap&type=lgns

[thespaah]

The excuse train keeps rolling. So, the horse had a little trouble on the first turn, big deal a 1/5 shot should be able to overcome that. He was 3 wide for the entire Derby and that didn't seem to be a problem.

Big Brown was in perfect position and came up empty. That's all.
I disagree. Watch the replay. The horse wanted to go and KD snatched him up three times before the first turn.

[thespaah]

I didn't like fact trainer took him off lasix instead of his usual doseage.Think that was reason for poor race.True not greatest ride but he did say horse was push button which he was not.And glad to see he thought of horse frist and pulled up.I have the PP's right here in my hands. There is no indication Big Brown ever having been raced on Lasix.
You're thinking of the steroids. The Colt has been off them since May 15th.
EDIT>>>>>>>

OOPS I owe you an apology.. BB has raced on Lasix since his second start.. But he was on the stuff Saturday as well.

[garyoz]

Ask Barry Bonds, PED=Performance Enhancing Drug

[cj]

The DRF PPs show Big Brown racing on Lasix in every start but his first.

[thespaah]

What rider would have won on Big Brown?Kent Desormeaux on one of his many many good days.
I was a poor ride. But I see people on here trashing KD.. That's not the right thing to do. Desormeaux is one of the best ever. So he made some poor decisions. Should we just take him out back and shoot him?

[thespaah]

No one.

He is a lightly raced, unsound horse who tried to run 3 races in 5 weeks. Perhaps he only got as far as he did thanks to Dutrow's magic (aka PEDs).

Never ceases to amaze me how horseplayers overestimate the importance of jockies, esp. on a circuit like NYRA.

Dutrow was classless and certainly not a good representative of the Sport of Kings. At least KD faced the media.He's unsound? SO when did you get into the Belmont Barn area to give the horse and examination? Garyoz DVM?

[thespaah]

The DRF PPs show Big Brown racing on Lasix in every start but his first.yep, just looked again and corrected my post.

[jotb]

Dutrow specifically said, before the race, that was the plan. Break out of the gate and go to the lead. .

Therefore, it would have required no *hindsight* would it? :D

Desormeaux didn't stick to the plan. For whatever reason.

If he is telling the truth, BB slipped out of the gate and by then they had lost some ground and couldn't go to the lead.

If he isn't telling the truth, then he blew the previously-decided-upon game plan, and then made an excuse for doing so.

_________

For those of you saying BB couldn't overcome adversity----would you combine adversity AND directions from the jockey not to go? Because the ONE THING that has always been said about BB........how tractable he is. He takes directions. That is his personality.

So, now, suddenly, an extremely tractable horse becomes contrary? I don't buy it.

BB got pulled back so many times he didn't want to take another correction for trying to go out again. IF he is the tractable horse everyone says he is, (and which he has been) then he *would* follow the cues from his rider. BB didn't know *the reasons*....all he knew was that he was being told not to go. Over and over.

And if Kent did have reasons.....and some seem to think so.......there was no way for Big Brown to know them. :)

If BB ignored the jockey, he would've been called a stubborn dishonest horse.

He obeys his jockey, and is now called a loser who can't overcome adversity.

No win situation for Big Brown!

He will face DaTara in the


KD gave us the poorest excuse for not making the lead. I said this before and I'll say it again, KD sent BB to a hole that was closed up by Coa and when that happened he wound up right on the heels of DA' TARA. If KD gets that spot he would have been in the 2 path right alongside of DA' TARA and Tale of EKATI would have been outside of those two. BB didn't drag him to that hole. KD pushed to that hole because he would have went on with BB and found himself on the lead or he would have been content to run alongside of DA' TARA. If KD is alongside of D'TARA then D'TARA does not come 3 paths off the rail.

The race was over before it ever began. Once he made that decision and was shut off whether intentional or not KD was screwed. He was screwed because he still was determined to get outside. He takes BB back several lengths only to come out once again bumping into ANAK NAKAL. All he had to do was sit chilly on the inside behind the leader saving ground. Remember this all took place around the clubhouse turn in the early part of the race. There was no need to panic like he did. He got his way by getting BB outside only to be sitting 7 wide down the backside. Was Coa on Tale of Ekati horse getting out down the backside or was Coa intentionally keeping BB wide? Did DA' TARA'S jock intentionally move his horse 3 paths off the rail or not? Don't forget Coa while in the 5 or 6 path kept looking inside to see where ANAK NAKAL was. The rest of the field was many lengths behind from the 4 horses.


The bottom line is KD screwed up big-time. He didn't even take the time to speak with Dutrow at the barn that day, next day, and the day later. I could understand maybe Saturday after the race but his ass should have went to the barn right after that to speak with Dutrow the next day. He called the owners instead only to feel out the situation (Dutrow's thoughts of the race). KD knew he was wrong and that's why he left Dutrow alone. His excuse of not going to the barn was, he wanted to give Dutrow his space. I wonder if KD's agent had the balls to speak with Dutrow the same day or next day.

Joe

[delayjf]

What ?? Just wondering if u saw the Replay ?
Yes, but I was referring to his trip down the back stretch, not entering the turn. KD did say BB wanted to pick up the bit moving down the back stretch at times. But I didn't see that Kent was fighting with him. I think Jerry Bailey agreed with me. I will look again.

[delayjf]

All he had to do was sit chilly on the inside behind the leader saving ground

Maybe the horse was throwing his head because he didn't like the dirt in his face. I believe this was the first time in his life that we was behind horses.

[badcompany]

I disagree. Watch the replay. The horse wanted to go and KD snatched him up three times before the first turn.

Arguably, the most common way for a favorite to lose a race is to hook up in a speed duel with a longshot. What usually happens is that the longshot comes in last and favorite ends up getting caught from behind.

What is your evidence that BB would've done any better had Desormeaux followed your advice?

My guess is that most of the people here who are complaining about the ride had BB on top in exotics, and can't deal with the fact that they made a bad play. I had a friend, who's extremely well-versed in breeeding, tell me, before the Preakness, that BB couldn't go a mile and a half.

There were alot of people who weren't at all suprised by this outcome.

[cj]

Arguably, the most common way for a favorite to lose a race is to hook up in a speed duel with a longshot. What usually happens is that the longshot comes in last and favorite ends up getting caught from behind.

What is your evidence that BB would've done any better had Desormeaux followed your advice?

My guess is that most of the people here who are complaining about the ride had BB on top in exotics, and can't deal with the fact that they made a bad play. I had a friend, who's extremely well-versed in breeeding, tell me, before the Preakness, that BB couldn't go a mile and a half.

There were alot of people who weren't at all suprised by this outcome.

Here we go again. In any other sport, athletes are criticized all the time, and those critical aren't assumed to have lost a bet. It is just silly. I doubt any serious handicapper was betting with Big Brown on top. I should say any winning handicapper.

To blame the breeding is also silly. The horse was done at about the 6f mark, long before any alleged suspect breeding would have factored in.

I don't think anyone here is talking about taking Desormeaux out behind the wood shed or anything. But, when you are in the public eye and you screw up, it is going to be called in today's times. As I've said before, we'll never know why the horse didn't perform. It doesn't excuse that ride though. It was a disgrace.

[bigmack]

Arguably, the most common way for a favorite to lose a race is to hook up in a speed duel with a longshot. What usually happens is that the longshot comes in last and favorite ends up getting caught from behind.
Using words like "the most common way" & "what usually happens" is a sure sign that someone is arguably making points that could easily be made into hooey.

[Wickel]

Here we go again. In any other sport, athletes are criticized all the time, and those critical aren't assumed to have lost a bet. It is just silly. I doubt any serious handicapper was betting with Big Brown on top. I should say any winning handicapper.

To blame the breeding is also silly. The horse was done at about the 6f mark, long before any alleged suspect breeding would have factored in.

I don't think anyone here is talking about taking Desormeaux out behind the wood shed or anything. But, when you are in the public eye and you screw up, it is going to be called in today's times. As I've said before, we'll never know why the horse didn't perform. It doesn't excuse that ride though. It was a disgrace.


A major disgrace. Well said, CJ.

[DeanT]

Big Brown Blames Dutrow.

I'm on the rail to start, always a tough spot. The bell goes off and I'm boxed in. It just so happens the horse in front of me slows and "accidentally" kicks me. I blame Dutrow.

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/Dudski/2008/06/07/Big_BrownThe_Interview

I just love using those big letters like other guys do.

I doubt any serious handicapper was betting with Big Brown on top.

I bet Big Brown to place.

I'm with Big Brown. I blame Dutrow. I want my money back, and Big Brown wants carrots. We're not standing for it, dammit.

[Onion Monster]

Desormeaux, who took too much crap for his ride on Real Quiet (give me a jock who gets his horse a 1+ length lead at the top of the stretch on dirt any day of the week), was hell bent on rating and Big Brown was hell bent on running. It was a bad ride visually and an even worse one from a track bias standpoint (How the hell esle could anyone rationally explain Da'tara winning?). Because of his past TC failure, Desormeaux was going to make damn sure he had plenty of horse left at the finsish line. And, sadly for his backers, he sure did.

Dutrow would have been better off with Sabastian Morales on Big Brown. If allowed to run, I'm sure he would have dispatched Da'tara before the stretch. And with the way the track was playing, we would have a TC winner.

Another pinhead stiffs a speedhorse. What else is new in this game?

[topgun]

Hello,

Will you guy's give us a break, as in saying the horse got a bad ride. I saw a empty horse, so maybe the smart trainer should have not taken the horse off juice. The guy's who are talking about the jockey's bad ride are the same one's who loved this jockey's wide ride in the other two T.C race's. Give us a break and who would bet a one to four shot anyway.

Topgun

[tholl]

Here we go again. In any other sport, athletes are criticized all the time, and those critical aren't assumed to have lost a bet. It is just silly. I doubt any serious handicapper was betting with Big Brown on top. I should say any winning handicapper.

To blame the breeding is also silly. The horse was done at about the 6f mark, long before any alleged suspect breeding would have factored in.

I don't think anyone here is talking about taking Desormeaux out behind the wood shed or anything. But, when you are in the public eye and you screw up, it is going to be called in today's times. As I've said before, we'll never know why the horse didn't perform. It doesn't excuse that ride though. It was a disgrace.



Excellent post. Spot on, especially about the pedigree. And there is no doubt that this ride was a disgrace IMO

[Cratos]

Big Brown was probly never going to win at a mile and ahalf anyway
because of breeding limitations. But watch the replay and see kent D.
strangling the horse to the first turn,then trying to get off the rail
twice instead of either sending him or biding his time was a prime example
of terrible riding,he took all the starch out of big brown. with the slow
fractions this horse should have been on the pace.Maybe because Kent D.
blew his last shot at a triple crown by moving far too earrly he
was determined to sit chilly at any cost saturday?

Wow what keen eyesight you have. Too bad you didn't see this before race.

[PaceAdvantage]

My guess is that most of the people here who are complaining about the ride had BB on top in exotics, and can't deal with the fact that they made a bad play. I had a friend, who's extremely well-versed in breeeding, tell me, before the Preakness, that BB couldn't go a mile and a half.Your guess is wrong, at least in my case. I had zero money wagered on the Belmont Stakes, with the exception of three $2 souvenir win tickets.

[cmoore]

If Big Brown isn't injured. Then it could of been any of the following
1.) Heat
2.) Inside post position
3.) Already Peaked in the Derby and Preakness
4.) Didn't like surface

It wasn't Desormeaux. This horse was rated easily in his last 2 races leading up to the Belmont. Why should Desormeaux change tactics. It's easy to criticize after the fact. If he fires BB out and he gets the lead then tires late. The second guessers would of come out of the wood work also. BB just didn't want to run that particular day. He just had a bad day and hopefully will be back to race again.

[JustRalph]

I think the ride sucked and I bet against him and got paid..............how's that?

The more I watch the play back of Big Brown with his head hanging low the more I think KD wouldn't have had enough horse anyway. But the ride sure as hell didn't help one bit.

I wish he would come back on the turf at a Mile and Half. That would be interesting.............but I am not sure we will ever see him run again.

[cmoore]

I think the ride sucked and I bet against him and got paid..............how's that?

The more I watch the play back of Big Brown with his head hanging low the more I think KD wouldn't have had enough horse anyway. But the ride sure as hell didn't help one bit.

I wish he would come back on the turf at a Mile and Half. That would be interesting.............but I am not sure we will ever see him run again.

I'm glad you made some money Ralph. The field looked so bad. I didn't know where to start if I was going to bet against BB. So I just passed the race.

[delayjf]

For those interested, check out this freeze frame pictures of the head on shots of BB coming out of the gate.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47786

There is speculation that the starter walking back towards the Gate after the start may have been what BB ducked right from.

[DeanT]

That was a really cool blog post by Travis. Very nice.

I watched it a few more times. The horse was a mess from the get-go. Maybe they trained him with a bell like Seasbiscuit between stakes to go like a nutbar. Maybe Dick can blame it on the bell. Check the DRF, I am sure there will be something new tomorrow for Dick to blame it on.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

People seem to be forgetting that the horse was a one to five shot. He should be MUCH the best. If he couldn't overcome a bit of trouble in the 1st 1/4 mile of the race, he was WAY overbet.

Dr.SS> Every time a horse is vying to be become a triple crown winner, that horse is always over bet in the Belmont Stakes. The low odds is the general public betting with thier hopes and not their wisdom of recent or past information made available.

The Belmont Stakes is the hardest race to win in the world of thoroughbred racing. Pretty much always has been. Any horse going lower than 3/2 in the Belmont Stakes is over bet. You are racing against the very best of the crop in the Belmont, and that makes a win more than a little tough.

I love the Belmont Stakes! It gets me stoked year after year after year.

The Belmont Stakes is the giddy up or shut up of the thoroughbred racing world.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Your guess is wrong, at least in my case. I had zero money wagered on the Belmont Stakes, with the exception of three $2 souvenir win tickets.

Pace is not easily fooled...Extremely smart no-play. The thrill of watching this chase is most always plenty for me also! There are countless horse races to bet. Why tarnish the thrill of the Belmont Stakes with a good for buttwipe only $100+ losing ticket?

Dr. SwineSmeller

[sally]

Am I mistaken, or have I actually seen 1 1/2 mile races carded elsewhere...I thought I saw a 1 3/4 mile race on someone's past performance before...hmm... maybe too much handicapping :eek:

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Am I mistaken, or have I actually seen 1 1/2 mile races carded elsewhere...I thought I saw a 1 3/4 mile race on someone's past performance before...hmm... maybe too much handicapping :eek:

Dr.SS> Hi Sally, At Oaklawn Park in Hot Springs, Arkansas, long has the tradition been that the last live race of the year is 2 miles long.

I'm pretty sure the 2 miler still takes place. Watching the race is like waiting to have a baby born, but it's an extended last thrill for the live racing season crowd. I remember once, Larry Snyder's mount trailed 40 lengths (literally) after the first time around the track and came back for the win. It was great!

Dr. SwineSmeller

[WinterTriangle]

I found it very interesting that Dutrow kicked Kent off of BB in the mornings. I think investigating this fact further may shed some light

Yes.

I'm annoyed that no alarms went off in my brain over that.

[DeanT]

Hell of a good article with KD's thoughts. The more time goes by after the race, the more good articles with some common sense we see.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080614/SPORTS08/80614012

[Marlin]

[QUOTE=cmoore]It wasn't Desormeaux. This horse was rated easily in his last 2 races leading up to the Belmont.[QUOTE]It is one thing to rate behind 10 and change, it is completley another to SLOW a horse to 13. Entirely different scenarios.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hell of a good article with KD's thoughts. The more time goes by after the race, the more good articles with some common sense we see.Maybe it's me, but the following doesn't sound like common sense to me:

In hindsight, we now know what the problem was: the starter standing in the middle of the track, a bunch of people standing on the rail like 50 yards out of the gate.

but in the next breath, it's written:

“For whatever reason, he bolted leaving the gate.Huh? I thought you just said "we now know what the problem was: the starter..."

It gets better:

“It could have been three hours and no water (before the race). It could have been the heat. It could have been the jostling into the first turn. It could have been his foot (the quarter crack in his left front hoof wall).

"There’s a whole lot of finger-pointing. I won’t say what I did into the first turn couldn’t have been part of it. Absolutely."

In all honesty, I'm not sure how this article is any more common sense than what has been written elsewhere, including on this very message board.

[DeanT]

I read the article from a guy that was in the irons not knowing what the heck happened, but in the end he had a flat horse, just like most of us saw.

It happened about six times today. Unfortunately I think I bet all six.

I liked the part about the break as well and how difficult it is to control a 1200 pound animal. I think he conveyed nicely that it is harder to ride a real horse from in the irons than it is behind a keyboard.

[DeanT]

The Belmont is a gift that keeps giving for pundits.

Bill Finley calls Dutrow and the bashers insane LOL.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=3441609

[ryesteve]

He started off making sense, but when he decided to explain away Big Brown's performance by calling it a "bounce", I had enough...

[DeanT]

Out of the dozens of opines, I have liked Kent's and Mitchell's on Bris. Both explained the fog pretty nicely.

Sure is interesting tho. I don't think I have seen anything like it. Perhaps last year if Borel got shut off with Street Sense we would have seen him crucified in dozens of opines, but since he won all there was were a few articles of praise. Such is the phenomenon of Monday morning quarterbacking I guess - lose you're the goat, win you get some praise, regardless of circumstance and racing luck.

[PaceAdvantage]

You know what, I take it all back. Kent D. rode a masterful ride. He gave Big Brown every chance to win. Every jockey I know likes to be in the 15 path going down the backstretch at Belmont despite only having two horses to the inside of them....

And, oh yeah....Big Brown and Dutrow suck. Kent D. rules.

[boomman]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]You know what, I take it all back. Kent D. rode a masterful ride. He gave Big Brown every chance to win. Every jockey I know likes to be in the 15 path going down the backstretch at Belmont despite only having two horses to the inside of them....

Mike: I was going to say he was in the 10 path, but it sure could have been the 15 path;) ....How in the hell are folks debating what type of ride that was???? Did it cost Big Brown a win? probably not, but the ride was horrendous and all "the stride by stride" analysis in the world is not going to change that!:bang:

Boomer

[DeanT]

Big Brown and Dutrow suck.

Well one out of two ain't bad :D

Altho if Big Brown could speak maybe he'd be a weenie too :)

[ascadden]

i watched all three legs of the triplecrown and i think it was more that bigbrown was not going to run the distance out that day than the jockey giving a bad ride

[NYPlayer]

Top stuff Observer. I think I was the first to post here that the ride was horrendous. Was it the only thing? Probably not, and we'll never know, but it is possible. He certainly didn't do the horse any favors.

"...except, of course, to ride the previously undefeated Big Brown to multiple length wins in the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, and the Preakness."

No doubt about it though, Desormeaux really screwed the horse in the Belmont.:rolleyes:

[cj]

"...except, of course, to ride the previously undefeated Big Brown to multiple length wins in the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, and the Preakness."

No doubt about it though, Desormeaux really screwed the horse in the Belmont.:rolleyes:

Honestly, what exactly did Desormeaux do in those races that any 10% rider at Thistledown couldn't do?

[ezrabrooks]

Honestly, what exactly did Desormeaux do in those races that any 10% rider at Thistledown couldn't do?

Get the mount?

[NYPlayer]

I'm not a BB fan or a Dutrow, but after watching the race 100 times, I'm convinced the ride cost him the Belmont.

After reading your post, I'm convinced your in need of some serious therapy.

Horses just don't decide to run. There are a few things that could cause a horse to race like that. 1. Injury 2. Bleed 3. Speed horse that needs the lead (War Pass in TB Derby) 4. The horse just becomes uncomfortable.

5. Cracked hoof

In this case, KD strangled the horse for the first furlong. Bumped the horse soundly into Tale of Ekati and then Anak Nakal. Then he tried to rate the horse. Not suprisingly, the horse decided at that point that it was not going to run and just gave up. The horse wanted to run out of the gate and KD stopped it.

You got that straight from the horse's mouth, right?

In essence, KD decided he knew more than the horse...

Well, he rode the horse to victory four times before, and Big Brown was not a need the lead horse as you say. So Desormeux has already proven to me that knows more than you.

... My instinct is that if BB got the lead in that race or even if he engaged Da Tara and engaged in a speed duel, we would have a triple crown winner.

He wasn't going to get the lead - No horse. That's really the only sane conclusion. The horse bounced.

[NYPlayer]

Honestly, what exactly did Desormeaux do in those races that any 10% rider at Thistledown couldn't do?

Nothing. But I can't see how that fact is getting you anywhere. If you're saying the horse basically carries the jock then...

...Big Brown wasn't running in the Belmont.

[PaceAdvantage]

I've said it a million times before, but I'll say it again....anyone who relegates BB's Belmont trip to negligible status isn't being honest with themselves.

For example, with only two horses to his inside (barely), KD had BB at least 8-10 paths out (maybe more) the entire length of the backstretch....you don't think it was much deeper out there and tiring? On a day when other factors may have come into play (foot, heat, acting up in the detention barn) this kind of inexplicable trip easily becomes the deal breaker.

On second thought, perhaps they had placed cardboard cutouts of Roy Williamson every 100 feet or so around the Belmont course....that explains everything! Bravo Kent D.!

[Marshall Bennett]

I don't think it really matters given his gas tank was half empty when he broke from the gate . Poor maintenance or whatever , this horse wasn't right before the race ever started .