Still no answer on why BB finished up the track....

[PaceAdvantage]

Although there are no shortage of theories here on this board (and I suspect everywhere else in the racing world), here's what the horse's mouthpiece is saying:

http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/horse_racing/articles/2008/06/08/dutrow_trained_on_finding_answer/

[46zilzal]

Other than having the wrong energy distribution for 12 furlongs you mean?

"This Brown thing will likely run away with it, but his % medians are far too high for 12 furlongs: DaTara, Ready Echo and Icabod Crane are closer to the standard."
Thu Jun 5, 2008 10:55 pm

[ryesteve]

"This Brown thing will likely run away with it,but his % medians are far too high for 12 furlongs I'd say that covers all bases pretty well...

[GARY Z]

Presuming no internal injury,Big Brown's loss could be attributed to
being "off" steroids which was not the case during the first two legs
of the Triple Crown.

This fact was revealed several weeks ago by Rick Dutrow, in an
attempt to show how good BB was in relationship to his competition.

Now the question: do we know if any of the field, including the winner
was on or off steroids prior to the Belmont, as well as on Belmont day?

If this usage of steroids is unavailable to the public(which I believe is the case),we may have witnessed why this debacle ocurred yesterday.

any thoughts on this issue?

[DeanT]

My theories, and maybe someone like Tom Schell can tell me if I am 100% wrong or not; that might be better.

Steroids - the most overrated thing we have read in the media for months and months. Steroids do not make a horse like Big Brown lose by 50. Horses that don't eat are sometimes on them, then when they get their appetite back they are off them. They don't lose by 50 either, or trainers would never take them off them.

Heat - possible, but I guess not probable since Dutrow said he was fine afterwards, and no vet was there giving IV jugs to the horse. One of our horses up here came 8th by 30 yesterday and that was the reason given and he had to be hydrated very much after the race, so some horses are affected.

Bled - He talked about scoping the horse "later". I thought horses were scoped immediately after the race? I would think he was scoped and it showed nothing (jmo)

Sick - This is most probable, imo. Sickness doesnt show up all the time before the race, or after the race, but it kicks the living chit out of them when they race sick.

The bottom line for me is, just like War Pass earlier this year - great horses do not race this poorly without something going on. People like to blame stuff - rides, the wind, the crowd, fractions, trips, whatever. That can get a horse like this beat by three or four or even ten, not by 50. I think he woulda been beat by 25 if KD rode him hard. I don't think the horse is the second coming of Secretariat, but he sure as hell aint a 10 claimer at Mountaineer either, so something was clearly amiss.

[russowen77]

If he ran the Preakness on steroids and has just come off that could be a possible problem. You are supposed to wean them off.

He quit running way before his breeding would come into play.

The only thing good about this to me was the way Dutrow was reacting.

[DeanT]

I guess I could have added one more - lameness. Maybe some of the people who work with horses can add more to this, or set me straight, but I have seen and heard of tendon injuries that will not show puffiness (or any lameness) until the next day.

[DJofSD]

Heat - possible, but I guess not probable since Dutrow said he was fine afterwards, and no vet was there giving IV jugs to the horse. One of our horses up here came 8th by 30 yesterday and that was the reason given and he had to be hydrated very much after the race, so some horses are affected.

I would guess it was the heat. Some horses adapt more quickly than others when the weather changes. It that respect horses are not too different than people.

How long had it been warmer than usual? One day? Two? What I don't seem to hear about is the humidity. What was the humidity?

[tribecaagent]

Here's the link.

Pletcher = no comment
Zito = no comment
Stewart = undecided
Dutrow Jr. = No
Tagg = Yes

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/02/sports/othersports/02steroids.html?ref=othersports

Let me get this straight.

Big Brown DID recieve Winstrol the 15th of May, which was the Wednesday before the Preakness. OK. Now, Big Brown is running for racing immortality and Dutrow decides he DOESN'T NEED Winstrol???

Either he is truly a fool, or he's lying. Let's keep in mind, there's no testing for Winstrol.

[cj]

I was wondering when we would hear from him. He couldn't shut up for three months, then suddenly he pulls a Harry Houdini. I can't recall any of the others reacting to a loss that way. I know Baffert sucked it up and faced the press.

[WinterTriangle]

Theories are theories, so I'll give an observation.

The announcer said, when Big Brown came out for the pre-walk: "And look at Big Brown! Not even a DROP OF SWEAT on him!"

He said that, like it was a good thing. I was struck by that.

It was hot. The other horses were wet. Not normal to be dry as a bone like BB was.

My vet runs an equine facility here where they rehab horses. I'm going to talk to him this week.

[DeanT]

What I don't seem to hear about is the humidity. What was the humidity?

Did you see Dutrow's shirt :D

It was brutal in the North East yesterday. First real humid scorcher of the year, imo. You very well could be right about that. I know of several horses yesterday who were affected in racing up here.

[GARY Z]

[QUOTE=tribecaagent]Here's the link.

Pletcher = no comment
Zito = no comment
Stewart = undecided
Dutrow Jr. = No
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/02/sports/othersports/02steroids.html?ref=othersports[/url]

[judd]

wasnt the way he was acting up in the barn unusual for him--usually a calm
horse

[BillW]

I was wondering when we would hear from him. He couldn't shut up for three months, then suddenly he pulls a Harry Houdini. I can't recall any of the others reacting to a loss that way. I know Baffert sucked it up and faced the press.

I heard him talk to ESPN about a half hour after the race, after he'd checked out BB (he refused to talk to them when he was initially going back to the barn). Said at that point they couldn't find anything - next step was a scoping.

[GARY Z]

[QUOTE=tribecaagent]Here's the link.

Pletcher = no comment
Zito = no comment
Stewart = undecided
Dutrow Jr. = No
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/02/sports/othersports/02steroids.html?ref=othersports[/url]

Tirbeca and all;

Thanks for the response, especially for the NY Times article.

The silence of trainers as respects steroids obviously
leads to suspicion on how this horse destroyed this field.

my thought is that "off/on" steroids would be helpful when handicapping
horses , much the same as the use of Lasix.

I certainly would love to ask Zito if D'Tarra was first time Wistorol/steroids
for the Belmont to bring this matter to closure.

Regardless of the condition of BB in this race, it is incredible that the
balance of the field couldn't get near a horse eligible for NW1 ...

[Tom]

46, I am 100% certain his energy distribution had ZERO to do with his performance. He was pulled up.....not beaten in a run.

[ddog]

hell, he didn't have ANY energy TO distribute!

his energy looked ok for more than a mile up to now??

[DJofSD]

his energy looked ok for more than a mile up to now??

Regarding BB, I what I thought I saw yesterday was a horse running within himself, KDES executing to plan, not pushing the button too soon then, when the time game to niggle BB a bit to say, OK, now -- go!, it just was not there.

[NoDayJob]

Da hoss lost da race! Dat's all folks!

[Premier Turf Club]

46, I am 100% certain his energy distribution had ZERO to do with his performance. He was pulled up.....not beaten in a run.

%E had nothing to do with it. C'mon. He stalked a modest pace for 6F and was eased before they ran a mile. His action was terrible before they eased him. KD could see he was uncomfortable, knew he had no horse and wrapped up. Maybe KD avoided something far more serious. Now BB can retire pretty sound.

[46zilzal]

%E had nothing to do with it. C'mon. He stalked a modest pace for 6F and was eased before they ran a mile. His action was terrible before they eased him. KD could see he was uncomfortable, knew he had no horse and wrapped up.

You folks always MISS the point and I don't use the old % Early. THE INTRINSIC NATURE of a horse's energy production recurs as part of his nature. NO ONE can use what happens TODAY, but his 68% in the last several, was what made him vulnerable to the standard 66-67 that all of the WINNERS of this race showed coming into it.

[ddog]

i would wrap that sucker up too.
if he pushed and the worst came about, we would be overwhelmed with HOW COULD THEY kill that horse, couldn't they see he was not fit!!

Also, i suspect the connections would not look kindly on that course for the future.

Who knows what could come out of the shed in a few years?

[ddog]

You folks always MISS the point and I don't use the old % Early. THE INTRINSIC NATURE of a horse's energy production recurs as part of his nature. NO ONE can use what happens TODAY, but his 68% in the last several, was what made him vulnerable to the standard 66-67 that all of the WINNERS of this race showed coming into it.

I will go this far with you(My energy is a little too high to last much further) anything that gets you off a loser is a good thing in any one race.

I am certainly not saying he was a lock even if healthy.
I have never thought anything in racing was a lock.

[PaceAdvantage]

Now BB can retire pretty sound.From what I read, they are planning Jim Dandy/Travers as the next races for him....but you never know...

[46zilzal]

From what I read, they are planning Jim Dandy/Travers as the next races for him....but you never know...
That would be great FOR THE HORSE....Let's see what some maturity and strict pace pressure does. Then he will move toward a higher regard in all racing circles.

[WinterTriangle]

hell, he didn't have ANY energy TO distribute!

his energy looked ok for more than a mile up to now??

Yup.

That became quite obvious to the rider on his back.

When a jockey says: " I had no horse" ----I think that's a pretty CLEAR statement of the situation. :) We were looking on, he was ON the animal.

[applebee]

He was trained to lose.His Preakness race (strangle hold in the stretch)sent the message to BB that he wasnt supposed to run fast.But if he was allowed to run thru the stretch theyd say the were showboatin.Pretty much a screwed situation.

[Tom]

You folks always MISS the point and I don't use the old % Early. No, you missed the point. His energy had nothing at all to do with his performance. It may have, had he finished, but it had nothing to do with how he was runnig a mile into the race. Nothing. Had he fallen, would you still say it was him %M that caused it? (Rhetorical)

[russowen77]

Here is an article on the subject.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080608/ap_on_sp_ot/rac_belmont_stakes

[harcapper]

For the most part I am a harness guy but do follow the triple crown and breders cup horses and so watched BB run his last 3 races.

Im not going to theorize as to what exactly happened but from watching both the Derby and the Preakness, BB was traveling in a much diifferent manner from the very start of the Belmont. It was not that effortless lopeing over the surface that I saw in the other two races as he appeared to be hikey from the opening of the gate. This could be lameness or an internal problem like a high sgot level so again I will not try to guess.

Whenever, if ever an answer is found for the performance, those that theorize that the horse was improperly trained are off base imo. When a horse is going good a trainer (any trainer) will make every effort possible to not change a thing. That would include your Windstrol theories as well.

Har

[INFRONT07]

Although there are no shortage of theories here on this board (and I suspect everywhere else in the racing world), here's what the horse's mouthpiece is saying:

http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/horse_racing/articles/2008/06/08/dutrow_trained_on_finding_answer/ After seeing a photograph of his left front hoof, I still have my doubts that he'll run, but as I write this Thursday morning I am assuming he will load into post one for the 140th Belmont S. (G1).FROM THE HANDICAPPERS EDGE

[joanied]

A lot of great insight going on here... I think we've hit on just about every scenario as to what happened to BB.
I posted my theories in another thread...the one about Jeanine Edwards comments...but just to add my thoughts briefly....
I beleive Kend D should have let BB go at the start...the rail was wide open, and that's where the horse wanted to be...I watched that head on several times, you can see the confusion in BB's face when KD yanked him to the outside, pulling him back, rather than easing him as he did in the Preakness... they say how intelligent this horse is, and I'd bet if he could talk, he'd tell us he wanted the rail and wanted to go...DTara may have been the 'speed' horse on Sat., but he wasn't going that fast...BB could have hooked with him and stayed with him the entire distance...I don't beleive his pedigree would have stopped him getting the distance...
his being so dry in the paddock, so completely laid back, gave me pause...he was TOO dry, he was TOO laid back...maybe he was running a fever that no one knew about...maybe he was not hydrated enough before he got to the paddock...and the biggie is...maybe he's going through withdrawal...if it's true he hasn't had any Winstrol, he may very well be going through the "D-T's", which could cause his muscles to tighten, hence the poor action we saw, not that long fluid stride.
I think KD did the right thing, to a point...I don't think he should have strangled down BB to pull him up...he should have just eased him, as in the gallop out, and let the horse cross the finish line...but, IF KD really thought maybe something was wrong, he did the right thing...not having any horse can mean so many things not evident on the outside...and if something was wrong inside the horse, what Kent did was right on.

I am still feeling the pain and disappointment, despite what many folks are saying about Dutrow now...like 'serves him right'...I can't do that, I stood up for him during the 3 wks leading up to Saturday...and now, well, I just feel really bad for him. I feel even worse :( for BB...I have no doubt he knows something just ain't the same around the barn. geeze, my heart is aching for that horse.
They gotta keep him in training...they gotta let BB redeem himself, they gotta allow him to feel what Jim McKay said..."the thrill of victory"...again. And no doubt, Three Chimney's would like to see the Travers on BB's resume.
If BB comes through this with no other problem other than those feet, well hey, I think I'll predict him winning the Travers!!!

[Shenanigans]

After viewing pictures of BB in the Belmont, I have discovered why he didn't run well....... They didn't let him run with his tongue hanging out.:p

[racefinder2]

The 'energy button' wasnt working properly.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The excitement is not in finding a new champ- it is the yearly SEARCH for one! Anything after Bonds or Aaron's suceeding is anti-climatic and so will the year following the next TC champ be. So I am not surprised that racing finds way yearly to deny horses the TC Chanpionship; this year by a KD stiff job. As a result we have 2 weeks to 5 weeks of dreaming of a new champ, starting the day after the KY Derby. A publicist's dream in a sport where the general public racing attention span is usually zero hours to 1 day!
Any comments on my accusation that the TC is being stiffed by jockeys/connections/racing every year?

[PaceAdvantage]

Any comments on my accusation that the TC is being stiffed by jockeys/connections/racing every year?It's these kinds of comments that just serve to nullify the genuine comments and concerns already put forth on this board.

Stiff job? As in they purposely made it so that this horse did not win? Are you for real? Why? To cash a few tickets? Has IEAH or anyone connected with Big Brown shown you in any way that they love to throw money away ($600,000 in purse money alone) or suffer the embarrassment of being the fool?

[socantra]

Any comments on my accusation that the TC is being stiffed by jockeys/connections/racing every year?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't think its quite the silliest comment I've read in the last couple of days, so you don't get the prize. You're definitely a contender though..... Keep trying.

[NY BRED]

What really has me guessing is the future of Big Brown.

The obvious bonus money offered to IAEH of winning the Triple Crown is gone.

Based upon the poor performance of BB it is conceivable his spectacular
races to date may have been attributable to the use of steroids, and poor
performance from lack of steroids. Right or wrong, the Belomont is not representative of a "bounce" off the Preakness, and this horse should have
demolished this field on a forward move.

As pointed out in an earlier post, two trainers who refused to answer if their
horses ran on steroids finished First, and dead heated for third.

We still don't know if these horses were on steroids for the first time, but
obviously the winner ran away with the race with virtually zero competition.

A very predictable race from a Pace scenario of a horse that won only a
Maiden special weight on a sloppy track?

I'm l saying it isn't only the poor performance of BB that hurts,
it is the incredible form reveral of D'Tarra that is illogical, and the lackluster
performance of contenders who figured to inhale or press the Belmont winner that never rose to the ocassion.

I would believe IAEH will be forced to retire BB since they are now in a no win situation. If he loses the Travers, interest in his stud value will diminish,
and if he wins on steroids that could also negatively impact stud fees especially if this usage of this substance is eliminated next year
by all tracks.

[PaceAdvantage]

Forget the steroid thing. This whole steroid "controversy" is a media-hyped event. I'm surprised otherwise intelligent horse folks are buying into this with so much gusto.

Big Brown was last given a steroid injection on April 15, according to accurate news reports (other, less accurate reports, such as from the New York Times, had him ON steroids for the Belmont).

He was way off steroids for the Preakness, where he romped. And until we know the exact amount given to him, it's pointless to speculate whether or not it ever had any effect on performance.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

From what I read, they are planning Jim Dandy/Travers as the next races for him....but you never know...

Dutrow says "I don't know what happened", and every idiot in world follows right after him.

Clue America > LOOK AT THE POST RACE FILM OF BIG BROWN WALKING...

The horse was favoring his injured foot in a BIG WAY. Watch his gate. Ya'll are all blind and no nothing about the simplest factors that which is there for the eye to plainly see. Dutrow and his anti-team dam* near broke Big Brown completely down.

Big Brown can't grow a new hoof out quick enough to make the Jim Dandy. Forget about it folks. It ain't happening.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Notso]

sweating as much as everyone to explain his performance.
I assure he isn't and never will ... it was what it was.

[NY BRED]

PA:

While I agree with you that steroids may be overplayed for one of the biggest
Belmont upsets, we are all in a state of darkness, including theBB team to
understand this upset.

I generally can understand when I miss the upset horse, and in fact I rarely use the fav unless I'm in the pick 6 mode.


one last thought: if Zito trained BB, and Dutrow trained
D' Tarra would there be a deeper investigation to this form reversal?

[KingChas]

After thoroughly researching for an answer to this thread.

I have come to the conclusion ................

Kent D is just not bred for the gruelling 1 & 1/2 Belmont Stakes.

:D

[kenwoodallpromos]

It's these kinds of comments that just serve to nullify the genuine comments and concerns already put forth on this board.

Stiff job? As in they purposely made it so that this horse did not win? Are you for real? Why? To cash a few tickets? Has IEAH or anyone connected with Big Brown shown you in any way that they love to throw money away ($600,000 in purse money alone) or suffer the embarrassment of being the fool?
"The three men were arrested Thursday along with 14 others in connection with a multi-million dollar illegal gambling ring, which Uvari led. As part of the indictment, Uvari, Martin, and Poulin were charged with fraud and conspiracy for allegedly attempting to fix the first race at Aqueduct on Dec. 18, 2003, by giving the Martin-trained A One Rocket an illegal substance. A One Rocket, who was running for a claiming tag of $12,500 five days after being claimed for $7,500, won the race by 10 lengths and paid $5.60."
IAEH Being the fool? I say yes judging by past history. A! Rocket and Martin was not a fluke based on IAEH's overall record at the time, of unreasonable improvement of their horses.
Lately the failure of horses that figure in the KY Derby and Belmont is also interesting based on final odds in the 1990's and 2000's; how Curlin gets a 10+ weight disadvantage, and how racing has all these book conditions to level the field; what I do not know is to what extent individuals and racing generally will go to make or break favorites.
I do believe that "stiffing" good horses for another day that are not in a pivotal position immediately into a race (start out at a disadvantage and may have use use a lot of energy early in the race to compete) happens all the time.
I'm just looking through a narrow jaundiced PR eye at the overall results of the predictable horse winning the KY Derby and TC during the 1970's as compared with recency, after the decades of the SUPER trainers, track speeds, drugs, sires; and wondering whether the 169% Belmont TV viewership increase is the result of the Expectation of a TC winner or just the Pursuit of oneI will follow the joining of Baffert, Lukas, and Zito to share equally in training purse winnings with interest in light of the news story about their plans to get together with others to buy up as many young race/b reeding prospects as possible, and see what kinds of race entry games are played.
Maybe the 2010's will be the decade of the SUPERINVESTOR!!

[cj]

IEAH lost a lot of money with that race on Saturday. They couldn't possibly hope to make it back betting.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

After thoroughly researching for an answer to this thread.

I have come to the conclusion ................

Kent D is just not bred for the gruelling 1 & 1/2 Belmont Stakes.

:D

LMAO... You get top line of the week there KingChas! Good one!!!

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

If you bet 5 million bucks at 1/4, and then shuffle in 1 million bucks at 34/1...Let's see...?

That makes for a 35 million payback on a 6 million dollar bet.

I'll take that bet on a rig anyday...

Dr. SwineSmeller

[cj's dad]

A very predictable race from a Pace scenario of a horse that won only a Maiden special weight on a sloppy track?

it is the incredible form reveral of D'Tarra that is illogical.

Actually, I seem to remember that D Tara ran a reasonably good race on Preakness day in the Barbaro Stakes (race 7).
Maybe the horse is maturing at the right time compared to the others.

[PaceAdvantage]

The horse was favoring his injured foot in a BIG WAY. Watch his gate.I watched him walk all the way back to his barn through the paddock....in HD....you must have been getting a different feed. He was not walking like a hurt horse....

Even Shenanigans didn't post such nonsense (I don't think), and she would not hesitate one second to tell us all for the 100th time something that would paint Dutrow in even more of a negative light (if that's possible).

But maybe I'm mistaken. Let me ask her:

Hey Shenanigans, you know about 100% more than I do about the physiology and biomechanics of a horse....was Big Brown, and I quote the good Dr., "....favoring his injured foot in a BIG WAY." after the Belmont Stakes?


PS. This is the first time I've ever experienced deja vu while posting a reply....isn't that wild?

[PaceAdvantage]

If you bet 5 million bucks at 1/4, and then shuffle in 1 million bucks at 34/1...Let's see...?

That makes for a 35 million payback on a 6 million dollar bet.

I'll take that bet on a rig anyday...

Dr. SwineSmellerThey still stood to have made much more had BB won the TC, especially if recent rumours are in fact reality.

[46zilzal]

Horses give you a very strong hint to being uncomfortable based upon an anatomical requirement of their gait: the very strong nuchal ligament behind their long neck.

With each forward stride, the nuchal ligament draws the head back. When there is even the most subtle inequality of stride length or pressure, the animal will "fall to" (bear a greater percentage of weight) on the good leg. UNEQUAL head bobs are a dead give away.

BB had none of the signs of it.

[46zilzal]

Actually, I seem to remember that D Tara ran a reasonably good race on Preakness day in the Barbaro Stakes (race 7).
Maybe the horse is maturing at the right time compared to the others.
Animal came to hand quickly but steadily.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]I watched him walk all the way back to his barn through the paddock....in HD....you must have been getting a different feed. He was not walking like a hurt horse....

SS>
Like I said, you guys are blind. Like seeing those SUPERSUTURES holding his hoof together isn't big as a MACK TRUCK in front of your face.. And Rewind the tape. I see it clearly. Why do you think he was pulled up? It wasn't the weather...

I got a one dollar bet for the charity jar that the next thing we hear official from Dutrow is, "We've decided to give Big Brown a few months off to let him "rest". Which will only go to say through paralanguage, "His hoof is screwed up".

Anyone really think Dutrow and his anti-team are about to admit Big Brown's hoof is seriously injured? Then the critics would sick him like a pit bull, and the anti-team knows it.

People are so gullible... "Lets feed 'em fish heads and tell 'em it's caviar...They'll never know the difference, it's all fish parts".

It don't take a brain surgeon to know a ripped hoof is a BIG DETRIMENT! We see mid level claimers that are dropped to the lowest claiming ranks every day due to ripped hooves and ripped hooves alone. (They call them 1/4 cracks cuz it don't sound as bad).

BANK THIS> Had Big Brown not been going for the Triple Crown, he would have long since been scratched from the Belmont Stakes. And the way all ya'll will know that Big Brown should have never went to post with his hoof injury is by the impending 6 month minimum layoff we are about to witness.

Any takers on that charity jug dollar?

Dr. SwineSmeller

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll await Shenanigans reply before I comment further. I've already watched the video with someone who has plenty of hands on experience with horses, and they did not see a hurt horse walking through the paddock, back to his stall.

I doubt we're all blind. But perhaps Shenanigans will have a different take....

And, let's not forget, Dr. Swine has already publicly admitted to being kicked off of at least two other forums, so he might just be one of 'em really cool "chain pullers" we read so much about.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[Quote by PaceAdvantage: I'll await Shenanigans reply before I comment further. I've already watched the video with someone who has plenty of hands on experience with horses, and they did not see a hurt horse walking through the paddock, back to his stall.

I doubt we're all blind. But perhaps Shenanigans will have a different take....

And, let's not forget, Dr. Swine has already publicly admitted to being kicked off of at least two other forums, so he might just be one of 'em really cool "chain pullers" we read so much about.

Dr. SwineSmeller quote:
I ain't trying to get kicked off your board Pace, no more than I was trying to get kicked off any other board.

I simply can't see why anyone (especially 3/4 of America) can actually think a horse with seriously ripped, stitched up hoof can win The Belmont Stakes of all races?????????????? It ain't never happened and it ain't never gonna happen...

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Shenanigans]

I watched him walk all the way back to his barn through the paddock....in HD....you must have been getting a different feed. He was not walking like a hurt horse....

Even Shenanigans didn't post such nonsense (I don't think), and she would not hesitate one second to tell us all for the 100th time something that would paint Dutrow in even more of a negative light (if that's possible).

But maybe I'm mistaken. Let me ask her:

Hey Shenanigans, you know about 100% more than I do about the physiology and biomechanics of a horse....was Big Brown, and I quote the good Dr., "....favoring his injured foot in a BIG WAY." after the Belmont Stakes?


PS. This is the first time I've ever experienced deja vu while posting a reply....isn't that wild?

Personally, in my most humbled opinion :p , I did not think BB was favoring his foot "in a BIG WAY". Couple times he looked tender on it, but from personal experience, I can't imagine any trainer sending a horse over without using every legal method to numb the feet when they are in a situation like that.

[Shenanigans]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]I watched him walk all the way back to his barn through the paddock....in HD....you must have been getting a different feed. He was not walking like a hurt horse....

SS>
Like I said, you guys are blind. Like seeing those SUPERSUTURES holding his hoof together isn't big as a MACK TRUCK in front of your face.. And Rewind the tape. I see it clearly. Why do you think he was pulled up? It wasn't the weather...

I got a one dollar bet for the charity jar that the next thing we hear official from Dutrow is, "We've decided to give Big Brown a few months off to let him "rest". Which will only go to say through paralanguage, "His hoof is screwed up".

Anyone really think Dutrow and his anti-team are about to admit Big Brown's hoof is seriously injured? Then the critics would sick him like a pit bull, and the anti-team knows it.

People are so gullible... "Lets feed 'em fish heads and tell 'em it's caviar...They'll never know the difference, it's all fish parts".

It don't take a brain surgeon to know a ripped hoof is a BIG DETRIMENT! We see mid level claimers that are dropped to the lowest claiming ranks every day due to ripped hooves and ripped hooves alone. (They call them 1/4 cracks cuz it don't sound as bad).

BANK THIS> Had Big Brown not been going for the Triple Crown, he would have long since been scratched from the Belmont Stakes. And the way all ya'll will know that Big Brown should have never went to post with his hoof injury is by the impending 6 month minimum layoff we are about to witness.

Any takers on that charity jug dollar?

Dr. SwineSmeller

I will put a dollar bet in a charity jar that the next thing we hear about BB is that he is going to the breeding shed.;)
I do agree that BB would not have ran in the Belmont had he no shot of winning the TC.
I do agree that a quarter crack is more difficult and painful than what the farrier, trainer and some commentators (Jerry Bailey) led the public to believe.
I do agree that any other horse with a quarter crack with the same healing rate as BBs' would still be a couple weeks out from a race.
I do believe that the quarter crack was the initial reason behind his loss - his lack of training - due to the injury - is the reason why he ran out of gas.

[BoldEye]

While there have been several comments on how dry BB was before the race, as they were getting ready to load I noticed he seemed to be the only one with kidney sweat between his rear flanks. Anyone else see this?

[cj]

The kidney sweat is clearly visible as they entered the first turn of the race on Big Brown.

[tribecaagent]

While there have been several comments on how dry BB was before the race, as they were getting ready to load I noticed he seemed to be the only one with kidney sweat between his rear flanks. Anyone else see this?

Boldeye,

Thats similar to a human being sweating under their armpits. No big deal in those temp's. But what do I know. I thought the winner, Da'Tara, looked the WORST of all of em'. He was anxious & skittish in the paddock and post parade. He was dripping with sweat. To me, he just looked rattled out ther.

[DeanT]

Forgive me if it has been posted. But Beyer has a common sense take to this all. Like many have said before, horses race bad all the time for no apparent reason.

Anyway, good opinion piece.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/10/AR2008061003041.html

[sally]

This gets me to thinking---when horses run bad for no apparent reason could it really be a head trip that caused it? Some have mentioned that BB didn't like KD and the bad ride messed with his head so much that BB got confused, pissed off, whatever--

Ok, I can understand that, horses have brains and personalities--now, can we put all this together and come up with a system for figuring out what's going on in a horse's head-- not just the physicality part-that shows if the horse is physically ready, but what do we look for to see what the horse is thinking...what clues are there to tell us if the horse is happy--pissed off--or whatever-- just wondering :rolleyes:

[jonnielu]

Jockey phsyced out by the distance, to the point that he didn't warm up his horse well, that I could see. That plus stifling the horses spirit, by early strangling. Dutrow over-cautious with preps, got scared of losing. Maybe with that out of the way, they will let the horse run now. The chips will still fall where they fall.

jdl

[jonnielu]

This gets me to thinking---when horses run bad for no apparent reason could it really be a head trip that caused it? Some have mentioned that BB didn't like KD and the bad ride messed with his head so much that BB got confused, pissed off, whatever--

Ok, I can understand that, horses have brains and personalities--now, can we put all this together and come up with a system for figuring out what's going on in a horse's head-- not just the physicality part-that shows if the horse is physically ready, but what do we look for to see what the horse is thinking...what clues are there to tell us if the horse is happy--pissed off--or whatever-- just wondering :rolleyes:

There would be several clues to this experience from observation is the only way to learn really. But the best, and maybe the best manifestation of what you describe is horse and jockey warming up extensively without a lead pony. Both will work together as a single unit and will exude a calm confidence and/or an energy that is difficult to describe. But when you observe it you know that it is beyond average.

I have often wanted to make some video of this, since it is such a strong signal. It most frequently overrides all other factors of performance.

jdl

[BoldEye]

The significance of BB's kidney sweat was that no other horse had it, that I could see. Can be a sign of acute nervousness, which drains the energy prematurely...Just a thought...

[46zilzal]

The significance of BB's kidney sweat was that no other horse had it, that I could see. Can be a sign of acute nervousness, which drains the energy prematurely...Just a thought...
You go out into the humid 94 degree heat and see what your underarms are like.

[BoldEye]

Let me repeat it for you--"no other horse had it"...

[46zilzal]

Let me repeat it for you--"no other horse had it"...
Entire fields drip with kidney sweat and do well. By itself it is nothing: these animals get keyed up when their routine says it is race day.

[ddog]

Forget the steroid thing. This whole steroid "controversy" is a media-hyped event. I'm surprised otherwise intelligent horse folks are buying into this with so much gusto.

Big Brown was last given a steroid injection on April 15, according to accurate news reports (other, less accurate reports, such as from the New York Times, had him ON steroids for the Belmont).

He was way off steroids for the Preakness, where he romped. And until we know the exact amount given to him, it's pointless to speculate whether or not it ever had any effect on performance.

i just don't get it and not that i buy into roid weakness in this case, but why would a trainer give a horse roids at a level he hoped to have no effect.
hell, just skip 'em.

[DeanT]

This gets me to thinking---when horses run bad for no apparent reason could it really be a head trip that caused it? Some have mentioned that BB didn't like KD and the bad ride messed with his head so much that BB got confused, pissed off, whatever--

Ok, I can understand that, horses have brains and personalities--now, can we put all this together and come up with a system for figuring out what's going on in a horse's head-- not just the physicality part-that shows if the horse is physically ready, but what do we look for to see what the horse is thinking...what clues are there to tell us if the horse is happy--pissed off--or whatever-- just wondering :rolleyes:

We have some great physicality threads on the board Sally. They provide some awesome insight on this.

In this case, and perhaps dozens of times a day, like Beyer noted, horses show nothing but happiness but race like crap. People have conspiracy theories with that all the time, but from my experience there is no conspiracy. I would bet in almost all instances the trainers do not have the slightest what happened. Most trainers chalk it up to horses being the finnicky beasts they are; others look to blame. Been going on for 100 years, imo.

As guys who own horses have said in this case (like slewis and onefast), BB raced like crap. As we all know from handicappers, they race like crap sometime, each day they overcome what BB had happen to him at the start and win, or hit the board, or at least race respectably. Horses that have nothing apparent happen with a trip conversely have finished last by a football field. It's part of the game. Thank god we bet size properly. If it happens about four times in a row, as we have all had happen, it can make you go on tilt, and leave you wondering why we play such a capricious game.

[46zilzal]

i just don't get it and not that i buy into roid weakness in this case, but why would a trainer give a horse roids at a level he hoped to have no effect.
hell, just skip 'em.
One of the standard, KNOWN side effects of Winstrol is a horse becoming rank and un-manageable.

I recall hearing a wrestler tell a sports writer why he was divorced. "I used to come home angry and do things like tear apart the dining room table and hutch and then wonder why my wife would get upset."

[BoldEye]

Let me see...BB runs flat and has no energy when needed. BB is only horse in race with kidney sweat. Kidney sweat can be indicator of acute nervousness and loss of energy... I see a possible connection. If you don't, fine. It has nothing to do with my armpits...Have a good day...

[46zilzal]

That is like saying a horse with rear wraps doesn't run well it is because of the rear wraps. Why not his saddle cloth?

You are reaching except there is nothing there.

[BoldEye]

You are so right...There is nothing there...

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Personally, in my most humbled opinion :p , I did not think BB was favoring his foot "in a BIG WAY". Couple times he looked tender on it, but from personal experience, I can't imagine any trainer sending a horse over without using every legal method to numb the feet when they are in a situation like that.

Dr.SS> Thank you. A "little tender" is a BIG WAY when you are racing in the Belmont Stakes.

Maybe a BIG WAY sounded a little over-zealous, and I can understand such misinterpretation. But he was favoring the hoof post race.

For lack of a better description, Big Brown was sitting the hoof down softly, (in a big way)..

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

Dr.SS> Thank you. A "little tender" is a BIG WAY when you are racing in the Belmont Stakes.

Maybe a BIG WAY sounded a little over-zealous, and I can understand such misinterpretation. But he was favoring the hoof post race.

For lack of a better description, Big Brown was sitting the hoof down softly, (in a big way)..


I watched the race and a you tube video from the crowd and this one did not take a lame step, nor favored one.

[46zilzal]

Dr.SS> Thank you. A "little tender" is a BIG WAY when you are racing in the Belmont Stakes.

Maybe a BIG WAY sounded a little over-zealous, and I can understand such misinterpretation. But he was favoring the hoof post race.

For lack of a better description, Big Brown was sitting the hoof down softly, (in a big way)..


I watched the race and a you tube video from the crowd (ALONG with the booing) and this one did not take a lame step, nor favored one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjAoJ2OzP5U

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=Shenanigans][QUOTE=Dr.SwineSmeller]

I will put a dollar bet in a charity jar that the next thing we hear about BB is that he is going to the breeding shed.;)
I do agree that a quarter crack is more difficult and painful than what the farrier, trainer and some commentators (Jerry Bailey) led the public to believe.


Dr.SS> I'm sticking a dollar in the jar just because at least one person (Shenanigans) can see what's up behind the smoke screen.

Dr.SS

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

I watched the race and a you tube video from the crowd (ALONG with the booing) and this one did not take a lame step, nor favored one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjAoJ2OzP5U

That was the most stunned sounding crowd I've ever heard from a Belmont stretch run. That's what they get for betting on a horse with a ripped hoof.

You need to get some video from the post race walk Zil. I'll see if I can find the NBC file.

Dr.SS

[46zilzal]

Strange, not a single vet, nor anyone else sees it, but YOU do.

Hmmmm wonder who we believe????

"Desormeaux said Big Brown “was in no way, shape or form lame or sore. But there’s something amiss, probably just tired.” HE was on his back, you weren't.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Strange, not a single vet, nor anyone else sees it, but YOU do.
Hmmmm wonder who we believe????
"Desormeaux said Big Brown “was in no way, shape or form lame or sore. But there’s something amiss, probably just tired.” HE was on his back, you weren't.

Shenanigans saw it. Just said so. I was watching post race with an eagle eye. It WAS NOT hard to see.

And vets jockey's trainers, ect... are all in the business of watching each others backs.

One vet is not about to speak against another, it makes the whole business look bad Zilzal. And revenge is just around the corner when you play that game. You won't last long in the business.

Sometimes we must think for ourselves when seeking the truth.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

One vet is not about to speak against another, it makes the whole business look bad Zilzal. And revenge is just around the corner when you play that game. You won't last long in the business.

And this pearl of wisdom comes from your long experience in veterinary medicine?

Vets, the good ones, speak up. They always do. If they did not, they would not have too many trusting clients. I used to go to their pathology rounds: they are independent thinkers.

[46zilzal]

another live view with comments from the great unwashed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5i0ehk-mZo&feature=related

[njcurveball]

another live view;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5i0ehk-mZo&feature=related


Was that supposed to show a gun man on the grassy knoll? :lol:

[njcurveball]

Strange, not a single vet, nor anyone else sees it, but YOU do.

Hmmmm wonder who we believe????

"Desormeaux said Big Brown “was in no way, shape or form lame or sore. But there’s something amiss, probably just tired.” HE was on his back, you weren't.


I can tell you that any steward knows to believe about 25% of what a jockey says. Any trainer or owner should believe a whole lot less. I would say the media can get about 10% from them.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=46zilzal]And this pearl of wisdom comes from your long experience in veterinary medicine?

"Desormeaux said Big Brown “was in no way, shape or form lame or sore. But there’s something amiss, probably just tired.” HE was on his back, you weren't.


Dr.SS> That is the LAMEST speech I've ever heard by a jock. Feed 'em fish heads and tell them it's caviar...

And I have no vet med experience. Only human med experience. But I have been around horses most of my life.

My grandpa once had a plow mule that had a cracked hoof. He had to take it easy on her till the hoof was healed, and the mule wasn't even racing at 45 mph. Common sense.

Did you even see the video of the vet stiching up Big Brown's hoof. MY GOD, that was an injury and a half.

If Big Brown races in the Jim Dandy (as the anti-team says is the plan) and he performs well, I'll admit defeat Zilzal. But if not, well you know the rest...

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

If Big Brown races in the Jim Dandy (as the anti-team says is the plan) and he performs well, I'll admit defeat Zilzal. But if not, well you know the rest...



Wrong race and track: heard it was Monmouth and the Haskell. "Paul Pompa Jr., one of Big Brown's owners, said Monmouth's $1 million showcase race is "definitely a possibility" for the colt."

I am NO FAN of this colt or his connections.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

another live view with comments from the great unwashed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5i0ehk-mZo&feature=related


Dr.SS> "And Big Brown ticket confetti rains down on the Belmont crowd..."

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Wrong race and track: heard it was Monmouth and the Haskell. "Paul Pompa Jr., one of Big Brown's owners, said Monmouth's $1 million showcase race is "definitely a possibility" for the colt."

I am NO FAN of this colt or his connections.

Dr. SS> OK the Haskell. I'll trade out for that race too.

And we do have one common bond Zil, neither am I a fan of Big Brown's connections. I think they risked serious injury to the animal putting him in ther starting gate at Belmont. Though I do think the horse has the heart of a champion.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[PaceAdvantage]

I simply can't see why anyone (especially 3/4 of America) can actually think a horse with seriously ripped, stitched up hoof can win The Belmont Stakes of all races?????????????? It ain't never happened and it ain't never gonna happen...**Sigh**....yes it has happened...Touch Gold...

Perhaps you need to change your name from Dr. SwineSmeller to Prof. FootInMouth:

In 1989, Pimlico historian Joe Kelly remembered, Sunday Silence unloaded at the Pimlico Stakes Barn the week before the Preakness and came up limping with an abscess in a hoof. One of the best-known vets of the time, the late Alex Harthill, treated the injury with poultices and had the horse stand in ice water most of the time.

Sunday Silence responded with one of the greatest stretch runs in Preakness history, beating Easy Goer in a photo finish.

Eight years later, trainer David Hofmans called hoof specialist Ian McKinlay to service after Touch Gold partially tore a hoof stumbling out of the starting gate at the 1997 Preakness.

McKinlay patched up Touch Gold, allowing him to continue training, and three weeks later the colt stopped Silver Charm's Triple Crown bid with a victory in the Belmont Stakes (http://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/sports/horse-harness-racing/belmont-stakes-NY0509200820.topic).

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/horseracing/bal-horse0529,0,7115961.story

[DeanT]

BB has had chronic hoof problems tho PA. Quarter cracks are a nagging biatch with horses like BB.

As little as a think of Dutrow thru this buck passing mess he got himself into, he should be commended for doing a dandy job with such a stinky ailment. Imo.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]**Sigh**....yes it has happened...Touch Gold...

Perhaps you need to change your name from Dr. SwineSmeller to Prof. FootInMouth:


Dr.SS> That's one out of a hundred and something. There may be one more. Maybe not.

So you are right and I am wrong. I was not aware of Touch Gold's hoof repair.

Now I know. Dr. SwineSmeller

[PaceAdvantage]

Shenanigans saw it. Just said so.Actually, she said a couple of times he looked tender on it (this seems vague to me, and open to wide interpretation, especially if one is not intimately familiar with how BB usually looks walking right after a race).

This is a far cry from what YOU emphatically stated, which was, for all intents and purposes, that BB was a cripple walking back to the barn.

So, why should we trust your power of observation at all good Dr., when you are so obviously wrong?

[PaceAdvantage]

I think they risked serious injury to the animal putting him in ther starting gate at Belmont.They risk serious injury every moment of their lives, especially in any race. I just gave you two prime examples of horses with serious hoof ailments that went on to win a triple crown race, but you continue to imply that Dutrow and IEAH are some kind of unique monsters in the industry that would run an injured horse.

Rare is the 100% runner in this game. You and I don't even know 10% of what goes on with these horses behind closed doors, what nagging injuries they have, what kind of shit has been injected into their joints, all the joint tapping that goes on, etc. etc.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Obviously wrong? This from the article you posted the link to says I'm far from obviously wrong...

"Having a quarter crack is never a minor issue," Edwards said.

Speaks for itself.

and... "McKinlay said, but the draining cooled off Big Brown's hoof".

You mean his hoof was actually draining? Oh that's real minor! We all know that!

and..."McKinlay learned his profession from his father, who created the use of wire stitches to pull the crack together as a primary way to repair [that means it's damaged] quarter cracks".

Does anyone comprehend English?

and last from this article Pace..."ESPN analyst Jeannine Edwards, for instance, said she believes trainer Rick Dutrow and McKinlay have downplayed the situation from the first moment it appeared".

Plain english that I couldn't have said better myself Miss Jeannine.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Shenanigans]

I watched the race and a you tube video from the crowd (ALONG with the booing) and this one did not take a lame step, nor favored one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjAoJ2OzP5U

WTF? You could barely see him at all.....:rolleyes:

[Shenanigans]

**Sigh**....yes it has happened...Touch Gold...

Perhaps you need to change your name from Dr. SwineSmeller to Prof. FootInMouth:



http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/horseracing/bal-horse0529,0,7115961.story

I can doctor an abscessed hoof and have it popped by morning.;) Abscesses are nothing compared to quarter cracks. Once the abscess pops the pain is almost non-existent. Touch Gold grabed his hoof - it is different compared to a quarter crack. Quarter cracks have infection in them. TG's hoof was probably easier to manage.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

I can doctor an abscessed hoof and have it popped by morning.;) Abscesses are nothing compared to quarter cracks. Once the abscess pops the pain is almost non-existent. Touch Gold grabed his hoof - it is different compared to a quarter crack. Quarter cracks have infection in them. TG's hoof was probably easier to manage.

Dr.SS> Very interesting comments Shenanigans. I think we all can learn some good horse sense from you.

I knew my grandpa knew what he was talking about when he said he had to take it easy on his plow mule when he cracked a hoof.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[PaceAdvantage]

I can doctor an abscessed hoof and have it popped by morning.;) Abscesses are nothing compared to quarter cracks. Once the abscess pops the pain is almost non-existent. Touch Gold grabed his hoof - it is different compared to a quarter crack. Quarter cracks have infection in them. TG's hoof was probably easier to manage.Ummmm.....I was directly addressing the good Doctor's comment, which I will reproduce here:

I simply can't see why anyone (especially 3/4 of America) can actually think a horse with seriously ripped, stitched up hoof can win The Belmont Stakes of all races?????????????? It ain't never happened and it ain't never gonna happen...Seriously ripped, stiched up hoof.....that pretty much describes Touch Gold's injury, does it not?

And is it a given that all quarter cracks have infection in them?

[OTM Al]

The truth is finally known..... :)

http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/asmussen/

[sally]

The truth is finally known..... :)

http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/asmussen/
:D too funny!

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Ummmm.....I was directly addressing the good Doctor's comment, which I will reproduce here:

Seriously ripped, stiched up hoof.....that pretty much describes Touch Gold's injury, does it not?

And is it a given that all quarter cracks have infection in them?

Dr.SS> Howdy Pace, I'm gonna say any foot injury is not good and is a reason to NEVER bet the horse in question. The foot is the anatomical mechanism that makes a horse go.

Touch Gold was an exception to the rule it would seem.

True that horses run every day with hoof problems. And some win...Usually a claimer that has dropped in value.

Rarely will a horse, as Touch Gold, compete effectively against top level competition with hoof injuries.

But I stand corrected about the "no hurt hoof winners" at Belmont. When you brought the fact of Touch Gold to the table, it indeed rang a bell. I do remember.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Shenanigans]

Ummmm.....I was directly addressing the good Doctor's comment, which I will reproduce here:

Seriously ripped, stiched up hoof.....that pretty much describes Touch Gold's injury, does it not?

And is it a given that all quarter cracks have infection in them?

Most the time they do, which is the reason they can't be patched right away. The infection has to dry up.
How long did TG injure his hoof before he ran the Belmont? Wasn't it the race before? I can't remember.
I remember Servis had a horse (can't remember name) that had been stepped on in a race. Ian McKinlay could never get the poor horse right. Of course, it was a pretty nasty injury. He had his heel bulb stepped on and it turned into something like a quarter crack but it never healed. I think in the end they figured there was some kind of nerve and blood vessel damage.

[tribecaagent]

Rockport Harbor.

[WinterTriangle]

Strange, not a single vet, nor anyone else sees it, but YOU do.

Hmmmm wonder who we believe????

I'm not a proponent of denying another individual's sensory experience.

Framing perception as "true" or "untrue" is a faulty construct. Belief and perception are not the same thing. The belief that Elvis is dead can be true or untrue. But a perceptual experience can't be judged that way.

For instance, when announcer said, before the race, as BB walked out of the barn "Oh! And here come's Big Brown! Not a drop of sweat on this horse!"

(meaning: Hey folks, typical Big Brown, cool customer).

I turned to my friend and said "uh-oh!....the heat is blistering and the horse is dry as a bone!!!!" My perception was completely different than the announcer's.

I'm no vet. I own animals, and I have eyes, so I know what is normal and what is not. So my stomach flipped over. I knew at that moment it was gonna be bad for Big Brown.

So----46------Do I need a *degree* for that? :)


Human miscalcuation is miscalculation whether it be honest or greed/ego-fueled. Campaigning a horse to perform feats of which he is not capable, for example.

BTW, folks, I do not have hoofs. Therefore, I make no assumptions about what it *feels like* to walk on a quarter-crack. (I'm surprised that so many other human beings can.)

[Rackon]

Most the time they do, which is the reason they can't be patched right away. The infection has to dry up.
How long did TG injure his hoof before he ran the Belmont? Wasn't it the race before? I can't remember.
I remember Servis had a horse (can't remember name) that had been stepped on in a race. Ian McKinlay could never get the poor horse right. Of course, it was a pretty nasty injury. He had his heel bulb stepped on and it turned into something like a quarter crack but it never healed. I think in the end they figured there was some kind of nerve and blood vessel damage.

Rockport Harbor's injury was not a quarter crack but a huge chunk of flesh and heel gauged out of the back of his foot, a tender and notoriously difficult spot to heal. In fact, this never did heal up satisfactorily. But it was not a quarter crack nor anything like.

Quarter cracks are not all equal, BB's was well drained and dry when it was patched with no heat in the foot. We've dealt with them before on both our show horses and racers. Depending on the individual circumstances, many can be patched and go on and perform. There are times when you cannot go on and you have to back off for a bit. Someplace, I think I have a list of well known horses who raced on quarter cracks, and it might surprise you.

PS: I didn't think BB walked back to the barn like a sore or tender horse, and I was really looking hard for something like that to explain the meltdown.

[Shenanigans]

Rockport Harbor's injury was not a quarter crack but a huge chunk of flesh and heel gauged out of the back of his foot, a tender and notoriously difficult spot to heal. In fact, this never did heal up satisfactorily. But it was not a quarter crack nor anything like.

Quarter cracks are not all equal, BB's was well drained and dry when it was patched with no heat in the foot. We've dealt with them before on both our show horses and racers. Depending on the individual circumstances, many can be patched and go on and perform. There are times when you cannot go on and you have to back off for a bit. Someplace, I think I have a list of well known horses who raced on quarter cracks, and it might surprise you.

PS: I didn't think BB walked back to the barn like a sore or tender horse, and I was really looking hard for something like that to explain the meltdown.

Reread my post - I stated like a quarter crack. Your first paragraph is almost the same exact thing I stated but re-worded. WTF? Yes, it was like a quarter crack because the hoof ended up being involved - it was cracked just like a quarter crack. I know this because I took pics for Servis to send to Ian.;)

How do you know for sure BB hoof was well drained and dry? You the groom? Trainer? Farrier? My guess it wasn't because they waited the day before to patch instead of patching for the work. Kind of makes sense don't you think?

[Rackon]

It didn't seem unreasonable to me to believe Ian McKinlay when he stated that there was no infection, drainage or heat in the foot WHEN he applied the patch (Friday), and the previous photos showed none. Of course I don't know for God's own absolute certainty, and photos aren't the same as being there. But it seemed a reasonable assumption coming from McKinlay. I woulda probably waited to apply the patch til closer to the race as well, if that was what McKinlay had advised. It stands to reason there may have been some drainage earlier in the week. If that makes me gullible then so be it.

I think there is some misapprehension going around among handicappers and fans who aren't horsemen that patching a quarter crack is covering up a raging wound and is an heroic measure that is sure to compromise the horse and thus to be reagarded with trepidation . In fact, it's done more often than people know and I feel many quarter cracks can be managed, as indeed we have managed them with our own horses over the years. I wanted toemphasize to those who asked that quarter cracks are not all alike. The master McKinley himself said that BB's was not difficult to deal with. That's really all I wanted to say.

I obviously never saw RH's foot in person, nor of course, BB's, except in photos. (RH's looked bad enough in photos - I'm not surprised it never came right, and I was very disappointed for Porter and Servis, especially the latter.) But I've seen a fair few quarter cracks in my time and BB's didn't seem impossible to deal with.

It sure didn't help BB, but IMO it didn't make him sore or lame race day as has been suggested. It did mess up his schedule and ultimately compromise his training, to ill effect.

The best news is they pulled his shoes altogether.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=Rackon] Ian McKinlay.... WHEN he applied the patch (Friday),

Nascar dont patch innertubes to go high speed. But the anti-team patched Big Brown's wheel to go high speed.

Talk about asking for a blowout? The animal was compromised by the anti-team. Plain and simple.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Tom]

And you have evidence that there was a blowout?

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Man....It is way beyond me what part of the fact "STITCHED UP BIGTIME HOOF" ya'll seem to be incapable of comprehending?

Couple with the steroid therapy, the anti-team has used Big Brown as an expendible experimental test rat, all in futile attempt to inflate the human ego.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Tom]

If one were to assume you knew what you were talking about, maybe, but so far, hot air is no supplement for facts. Got any?

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Yes. I have one.

Refer to BOLD PRINT two posts above. SS

[Tom]

I said evidence. Try a dictionary.
You're offering me a pig in a poke, so to speak.:D

[Lose The Juice]

Some above seem close to reaching the conclusion I will argue for, namely that the actual outcome of the race was more or less random. There were meaningful indications that BB would not get the distance or would be off his best for various reasons, but the hoss fading as he did after running near a slow pace for about a mile was expected by few if any out there. Likewise, the race being won by a NW1-other who'd never won on a fast track, and who was coming off a loss in much shorter and relatively slow race in which he had an open lead (in slow fractions, yet) and yet still got beat in a five-hoss field in a tertiary stake, seems a further indicator that an element of randomness has not only crept into the game but laid claim to a big chunk of it.

Has anyone forgotten War Pass losing by 23 lengths at 1-20 in the Tampa Bay Derby?

With the present-day ubiquity of lasix use (and god knows what else along with it), such outcomes are becoming more and more common. Huge odds-on favorites and standout crop leaders got beat in the good old pre-drug days, too, but generally they didn't suddenly finish 20-odd lengths back with no apparent excuse. Just look at Forego's PP chart:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/1298/forego.html

[Tom]

Wow!
Now there is a true champion.
Thanks for the PPs.

[KingChas]

Has anyone forgotten War Pass losing by 23 lengths at 1-20 in the Tampa Bay Derby?



Doesn't count not a Dutrow horse.

Nicky just runs them on hay and water. :liar:

[ezrabrooks]

Wow!
Now there is a true champion.
Thanks for the PPs.

Gosh he gave up the weight. Glad Asmussen didn't balk at Curlin being assigned 128..

Ez

[Shenanigans]

Some above seem close to reaching the conclusion I will argue for, namely that the actual outcome of the race was more or less random. There were meaningful indications that BB would not get the distance or would be off his best for various reasons, but the hoss fading as he did after running near a slow pace for about a mile was expected by few if any out there. Likewise, the race being won by a NW1-other who'd never won on a fast track, and who was coming off a loss in much shorter and relatively slow race in which he had an open lead (in slow fractions, yet) and yet still got beat in a five-hoss field in a tertiary stake, seems a further indicator that an element of randomness has not only crept into the game but laid claim to a big chunk of it.

Has anyone forgotten War Pass losing by 23 lengths at 1-20 in the Tampa Bay Derby?

With the present-day ubiquity of lasix use (and god knows what else along with it), such outcomes are becoming more and more common. Huge odds-on favorites and standout crop leaders got beat in the good old pre-drug days, too, but generally they didn't suddenly finish 20-odd lengths back with no apparent excuse. Just look at Forego's PP chart:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/1298/forego.html

I haven't forgotten it. I seem to remember commenting on how poorly the horse looked and didn't look like he'd make it to the Derby. His next race proved it.

[46zilzal]

War Pass was one of MANY MANY two year olds which were two year old prodigies and never advanced in apportioning their speed to mature status. His two year old romps were all up front, over after 3/4 of the contest.

[Wickel]

War Pass' Tampa Bay debacle was all trip oriented. He stumbled at the start and was sandwiched, then he was rushed into the first turn. I don't care how much of a superstar one thinks any horse is, you just can't recover from trouble like that. In the Wood, he was surprisingly hooked bigtime early on, although I agree with most he should have survived it in that field. Same thing with Pyro and Colonel John in the Derby--horrendous trips, each losing at least five lengths at the start, probably a lot more. I personally think Colonel John would have given Big Brown a run for his money down the lane with a strong trip. Might have even won. And look what Pyro did with a clean trip on Saturday. Fact of the matter is, War Pass, Pyro and Colonel John are quality racehorses. The summer 3YO stakes could be exciting, to say the least.

[Lose The Juice]

But War Pass (another Lasix user, cough cough) thereafter raced impressively in the Wood, getting pushed to sprint fractions early by a rabbit, and only giving way at the very end to Tale of Ekati, who had a more or less perfect trip.

How does one explain the Tampa Bay loss in light of the subsequent effort? Coupla bumps at the start justify the horse spitting the bit halfway throught he final turn? Can't race from just off the pace?

Seems that such things justify a horse losing by a few lengths, but not a 1-20 shot (who'd already won around two turns) packing it in on the final turn.

[46zilzal]

If a War Pass like energy cannot win at Aqueduct, they are really going to be exposed when they leave it.

[Lose The Juice]

"They" who?

[NYPlayer]

I'm not a proponent of denying another individual's sensory experience.

Framing perception as "true" or "untrue" is a faulty construct. Belief and perception are not the same thing. The belief that Elvis is dead can be true or untrue. But a perceptual experience can't be judged that way.

For instance, when announcer said, before the race, as BB walked out of the barn "Oh! And here come's Big Brown! Not a drop of sweat on this horse!"

(meaning: Hey folks, typical Big Brown, cool customer).

I turned to my friend and said "uh-oh!....the heat is blistering and the horse is dry as a bone!!!!" My perception was completely different than the announcer's.

I'm no vet. I own animals, and I have eyes, so I know what is normal and what is not. So my stomach flipped over. I knew at that moment it was gonna be bad for Big Brown.

So----46------Do I need a *degree* for that? :)


Human miscalcuation is miscalculation whether it be honest or greed/ego-fueled. Campaigning a horse to perform feats of which he is not capable, for example.

BTW, folks, I do not have hoofs. Therefore, I make no assumptions about what it *feels like* to walk on a quarter-crack. (I'm surprised that so many other human beings can.)

Well said, but your going to have a tough time with the "experts" on this board.

We know the quarter crack surfaced right after the Preakness, but that may not have been all that was wrong with the horse. It seemed to me that the hard efforts in the Derby and the Preakness had taken something out of him and he was now vulnerable, even though he was still the best and could bounce and still come out on top. I bet trifecta's with both BB in the money and out altogether. It's a pity the race didn't offer any solid alternative, or I would have been more enthusiastic about betting against him. Alas, I had no "6" on any tickets.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well said, but your going to have a tough time with the "experts" on this board.Yeah, we all basically suck.

[KingChas]

War Pass' Tampa Bay debacle was all trip oriented. He stumbled at the start and was sandwiched, then he was rushed into the first turn. I don't care how much of a superstar one thinks any horse is, you just can't recover from trouble like that.

How can anyone say Big Brown's Belmont was not all trip oriented?

Both races War Pass's TBD and Big Brown's BS (lol),looked the same to me as both horses did not get their way at the onset of the race,got pissed off and just downright quit.

[Shenanigans]

But War Pass (another Lasix user, cough cough) thereafter raced impressively in the Wood, getting pushed to sprint fractions early by a rabbit, and only giving way at the very end to Tale of Ekati, who had a more or less perfect trip.

How does one explain the Tampa Bay loss in light of the subsequent effort? Coupla bumps at the start justify the horse spitting the bit halfway throught he final turn? Can't race from just off the pace?

Seems that such things justify a horse losing by a few lengths, but not a 1-20 shot (who'd already won around two turns) packing it in on the final turn.

Another Lasix user??? Do you realize that most horses running run with Lasix???

[46zilzal]

Another Lasix user??? Do you realize that most horses running run with Lasix???
That, amongst several other things (counteraction by phenylbutazone), is why it is a non-issue in handicapping a race.

[Lose The Juice]

Originally Posted by Shenanigans
Another Lasix user??? Do you realize that most horses running run with Lasix???

That, amongst several other things (counteraction by phenylbutazone), is why it is a non-issue in handicapping a race.


Yes, of course... medication has the exact same effect on every person or animal to which it's administered, there's certainly no such thing as an "idiosyncratic reaction", and the PDR is just a bunch of chin music.

Are you serious?

[Wickel]

How can anyone say Big Brown's Belmont was not all trip oriented?

Both races War Pass's TBD and Big Brown's BS (lol),looked the same to me as both horses did not get their way at the onset of the race,got pissed off and just downright quit.


I absolutely agree with you. And that's my point: It was trip oriented. BB was taken out of his game plan. Same with War Pass. Not only was he bumped, but he was rushed into the first turn. It's a very rare animal who can survive a trip like that.

[46zilzal]

I absolutely agree with you. And that's my point: It was trip oriented. BB was taken out of his game plan. Same with War Pass. Not only was he bumped, but he was rushed into the first turn. It's a very rare animal who can survive a trip like that.
That's how that animal ran. No surprise he couldn't get 9 furlongs.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

I said evidence. Try a dictionary.
You're offering me a pig in a poke, so to speak.:D

Dr. SS> Ok Tom, as you wish. Here is Websters new world college dictionary 4th edition's definition of Big Brown's injury...

A quarter crack is actually known as a sand crack, and it is quote> a perpindicular fissure in some part of an animals hoof, esp. a horse, often caused by sandy soil. end quote.

Furthermore, a "fissure" is defined as quote> 1. a long. narrow, deep cleft or crack 2. a dividing or breaking into two parts.

If that ain't a blowout Tom, then what do you call a blowout? He11, he was sent to post with a blowout. It didn't happen during the race, it was already blowed out.

I didn't even need to verify with Webster that Big Brown had a blowout, as evidenced by...When a horse is supposedly ready to go to post and perform well, as Dutrow's anti-team blatantly lied about, the horse doesn't pull up 3/8's of a mile from the finish line with a flat tire.

The anti-team made nothing out of something in their prepared downplay of big brown's injury, and many idiots listened and believed. Any handicapper or horse player with any horse sense whatsoever doesn't bet on a horse with a hoof that is broken into two parts..

But Tom, something tells me you did bet the horse with the blowout.

I hope you learned something Tom.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Tom]

No, I didn't bet him. A foolish wager at the odds.
And you still have nothing but your own opinon of what happened.
Look up evidence,not quarter crack.
You are mixing up evidence with opinon.

Here is what I learned:

If you knew half as much as you weigh, you'd be pretty smart.

As it is, you are a legend in your own mind.
Just another internet know-it-all. Who knows nothing.
:lol:

[Tuffmug]

Very Hot Day. Horse dry as a bone in paddock. Dry after Derby. Dry after Preakness according to Kent. But Derby and Preakness not run in 98 degree temp and high humidity and horse able to keep from overheating despite not sweating.

Horse doesn't sweat enough to keep himself cool on a very hot day equals horse that overheats (not dehydrates) and runs like shit. My friend Ted has the same problem. Fewer than normal sweat glands. On a hot day he easily overheats and loses energy.

BB races again on a very hot day and he will wilt again like he did at Belmont!

[PaceAdvantage]

BB had a nice lather going between his hind legs....you could see it easily as they headed into that first turn.

[Lose The Juice]

He was indeed lathered up between the hind legs as they approached the gate.
As for the no-sweating thing, I seem to remember that Greentree in its pos-Gaver days had some grass champion who couldn't sweat so much as a drop; Reinacher used to keep him in an air-conditioned stall, and the hoss was fine.

I don't entirely disagree that BB's Belmont trip would be an excuse for him losing by a few lengths, say... but I would suggest that it is hardly an excuse for him spitting the bit before the final turn, as he did.

[sally]

What does "spitting the bit" mean? :confused:

[Lose The Juice]

Packed it in, quit, gave up the ghost, faded... choose your colloquialism. :)

[sally]

Oh! Thank you!! :)

[Lose The Juice]

No problem.

Let's face it, Dutrow made his bones as a claiming trainer, and while he's certainly had his stakes successes, the guy ain't exactly Woody Stephens or Elliott Burch. Why is everyone so shocked that BB pumped out a few dynamite races after being switched to Dutrow's barn, and then fagged out (at a classic distance, no less)? Did Oscar Barrera or Frank Martin ever win the Belmont? John Campo? Gasper Moschera? Bob DeBonis?

[tucker6]

If I recall, in the 73 Belmont, Secretariat looked as cool as a cucumber prior to the race. It was 90F that day compared to 96F this year. I don't think dryness before a race is the end all, be all.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Here is what I learned:

If you knew half as much as you weigh, you'd be pretty smart.

As it is, you are a legend in your own mind.
Just another internet know-it-all. Who knows nothing.
:lol:

Oh yeah. Well same to you but more of it Tom....

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Wickel]

Wonder if Desormeaux will get the mount in the Haskell? Dutrow says their differences are in the past and that KD will ride BB, but I don't think KD has been on a Dutrow horse since the Belmont. With this latest outburst by Dutrow, I'm predicting two things: Dutrow will lose the horse and KD will keep the mount. Oh yeah, one more prognostication: Big Brown will run up the track again.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh yeah, one more prognostication: Big Brown will run up the track again.I wonder why any handicapper worth their salt would actually expect this outcome in his next race. It's stupefying actually...

[Shenanigans]

I personally still don't think BB will run another race. I will believe it when I see it.

[GARY Z]

it appears this team will stick together as a measure of strength
against adverse publicity and the syndication deal.

Presuming Big Brown wins the Haskell, the ideal move would be to
retire the horse and categorize the Belmont as a fluke or unexplainable
loss in an attempt to sell the Sire fee at a the original
projected value (?) which is certainly below that # today.

Should BB flounder on Haskell day, it would be no surprise to
witness changes in relationships between owner(s),trainer
and Jockey

[joanied]

Latest Dutrow interview:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/95884.html (http://www.drf.com/news/article/95884.html)

[PaceAdvantage]

I personally still don't think BB will run another race. I will believe it when I see it.If it's true about the deal with Three Chimney's, I don't see how he can't run again. I've got a nice bet going with a friend of mine that he'll run again. In fact, my friend allowed me to double the bet even AFTER they announced the plan to run in the Haskell.

Are you related to my friend? :lol: You seem to be about as stubborn as he is regarding BB....

[njcurveball]

I don't see how he can't run again. I've got a nice bet going with a friend of mine that he'll run again.

If he had run 2nd or 3rd in the Belmont, then I would bet he was not making another start.

The problem now is for them to make future buyers of his stud fees forget that last start. I think the only way that can happen is for him to run again and be successful.

The Haskell is a perfect place and Dutrow may bribe the racing secretary there to give him an OUTSIDE post.

Give him a win in the Haskell and that should be enough to get him to the breeding shed. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Give him a win in the Haskell and that should be enough to get him to the breeding shed. :ThmbUp:I don't see the Haskell as being enough. I think what Dutrow had in mind (Travers) is necessary, and even beyond that...taking a shot at older horses in the fall if he does well in the Haskell and Travers (there was some talk last week from Camp Dutrow of going after both the Haskell and Travers).

[joanied]

I don't see the Haskell as being enough. I think what Dutrow had in mind (Travers) is necessary, and even beyond that...taking a shot at older horses in the fall if he does well in the Haskell and Travers (there was some talk last week from Camp Dutrow of going after both the Haskell and Travers).

Dutrow wanted the Travers, IEAH overruled him...but if BB wins the Haskell and comes back good, maybe they'll go for it...I'm sure the guys up at the Spa are dying to get him there...wether it's to cheer him, or geer him, folks will pack the place to see him.
What is it...3 wks from Jersey to the Travers? It's a can do.
And I agree, I think he'll need more than the Haskell (if he wins it) to get the mare owners they'd want for him in the shed...mare owners will have to find a reason to get by his feet as a hereditary issue, and take a shot with him.

[Shenanigans]

If it's true about the deal with Three Chimney's, I don't see how he can't run again. I've got a nice bet going with a friend of mine that he'll run again. In fact, my friend allowed me to double the bet even AFTER they announced the plan to run in the Haskell.

Are you related to my friend? :lol: You seem to be about as stubborn as he is regarding BB....

Why would he have to run again if the deal is true about Three Chimneys?? I would assume their "deal" was/is similar to the one that was given to Smarty Jones. I seem to remember him losing the Belmont and then "pointing" to what race? Haskell? Then Travers? Then Penn. Derby??? By August he was at Three Chimneys. Call me stubborn, but I would call it "seeing a pattern" here.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Dutrow said. You're not going to be able to find it because I'm safe, I'm sound, I protect my horses."


Dr. SS> Dooftrow now says, "I protect my horses"???

Is it just me, or does this Dutrow statement from the same DRF interview completely contradict his statement highlighted in the directly above post, (The one about it "not being his fault" that his horse was dosed wrong by the vet, 153 times we know of).

It isn't his fault his horse receives incorrect or untimely doses, but he "protects his horses". What a mouthy doof.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[GARY Z]

Dr.S.S. :


You might find this recent NY Post article interesting regarding
Rick's temperment and Gaspar's response to Dutrow including
him in his rants:


http://www.nypost.com/seven/06302008/sports/moschera_fires_back_at_dutrow_117878.htm

[PaceAdvantage]

Why would he have to run again if the deal is true about Three Chimneys??Certain reports state that TC paid only $5M for 10% of Big Brown and the rights to manage his stud career. This means IEAH only received $5M out of an estimated $50M that he was said to be worth before the Belmont.

They have a lot of catching up to do...the racetrack is the only place I can see where this can be accomplished quickly.

[joanied]

Certain reports state that TC paid only $5M for 10% of Big Brown and the rights to manage his stud career. This means IEAH only received $5M out of an estimated $50M that he was said to be worth before the Belmont.

They have a lot of catching up to do...the racetrack is the only place I can see where this can be accomplished quickly.

Me too.
Also there is the matter of attracting the best mares for him...and with his foot issues, he'll have to have a bit more of a race resume to get those good mares.

[Shenanigans]

Certain reports state that TC paid only $5M for 10% of Big Brown and the rights to manage his stud career. This means IEAH only received $5M out of an estimated $50M that he was said to be worth before the Belmont.

They have a lot of catching up to do...the racetrack is the only place I can see where this can be accomplished quickly.

Like I said, what makes you think the deal with Smarty Jones was different?;)

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=GARY Z]Dr.S.S. :


You might find this recent NY Post article interesting regarding
Rick's temperment and Gaspar's response to Dutrow including
him in his rants:



[quote Moschera] "....but he [Dutrow] can talk intelligent, too."

Dr.SS> I must have been out of the country when this isolated event happened?

And this next quote is full of prose (as Pace would say). I like this Moschera guys style!

"He should watch 'The Godfather,' and he'll learn about what to say and what not to say."

That is the some of the best advice I've heard anyone offer Dutrow yet.

Dr. SwineSmeller