Big Plop...another Fake, Phony, Fraud

[LottaKash]

Go big brown, join the other baseball players, track stars and whoever, who are in the "Hall of Shame".....you are nothing but an average horse, who pretended to be a champion..........

Next, we will have a Senate investigation into Steroid use in Horse Racing........:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The American Drug Culture.....what have we come to.....?????

[MNslappy]

The American Drug Culture.....what have we come to.....?????

I think you must've had some of those drugs yourself guy! :) This is a horse who destroyed 3 Grade I fields in a row, he's not a "fraud." He's not a Triple Crown winner, yes, but he ain't no phony either.

[mannyberrios]

I think you must've had some of those drugs yourself guy! :) This is a horse who destroyed 3 Grade I fields in a row, he's not a "fraud." He's not a Triple Crown winner, yes, but he ain't no phony either.Big Brown is still a great horse.

[HUSKER55]

For example, I know that not one member of PA bet their grocery money or mortgage money on BB and simply enjoyed the festivities.

husker55

:)

[Premier Turf Club]

Why would you say he's a fake? He is a very talented horse with some serious physical problems. Just like his sire Boundary. Just like Boundary's sire Danzig...

[mannyberrios]

Why would you say he's a fake? He is a very talented horse with some serious physical problems. Just like his sire Boundary. Just like Boundary's sire Danzig...Could not have said it better.

[Living Flame]

Who hyped him? People did! Fans did! The media and connections did! And they all knew better, too!

He is still a wonderful horse. He won the Derby and Preakness, that's as good as it gets! Heck, there are plenty of legends who never even ran in the TC (Ruffian, etc). You don't have to win it to be a Great horse (although, personally, I wouldn't put him at the same level as Ruffian and the others...).

Sidenote: Hee hee...I bet Dutrow is gonna kill somebody.:p

[First_Place]

"Two out of three, ain't bad."

FP

[Milleruszk]

Go big brown, join the other baseball players, track stars and whoever, who are in the "Hall of Shame".....you are nothing but an average horse, who pretended to be a champion..........

Next, we will have a Senate investigation into Steroid use in Horse Racing........:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The American Drug Culture.....what have we come to.....?????

One of the TV commentators mentioned that Big Brown's last steroid injection had been on 4/15. I had heard Dutrow explain on TV that all of his horses received their steroid injections on the 15th of every month. Why had Big Brown missed his 5/15 injection?

[Living Flame]

I think Dutrow said the horse was doing fine on his own and he didn't want to mess anything up. I guess he thought BB was a Great horse and didn't really need it for anything except maybe to improve coat condition.

Or maybe he wasn't exactly telling the truth.*shrugs*

[beenacoach]

Wow, when I first came in here I thought the horse racing IQ would be much higher than with the average group of people on the street. How foolish of me.

[ddog]

speaking for MYSELF, we be waitin coach?

spill it man.


......................

[beenacoach]

I know that I dont have all the information to know for sure what went wrong.

I know I dont blame the ride. BB wasnt ridden any differently than he was before. Saying he should have went to the front out of the gates is silly given that he has never done that before and if it aint broke you dont fix it.

I know that this stuff about Kent D saying the horse didnt feel right is not what I heard right after the race. He said when he went to move he didnt have any horse and when it became apparent there just wasnt any horse under him he eased him. That is NOT the same as saying that the horse didnt feel right. After the initial traffic problem he ended up right where he wanted to be with the exception of being forced a little wider than he would have liked by the horse running in second place.

I know the horse looked sound before and after the race, but the quarter crack could have bothered him (but I doubt it).

I know that IF he did not get Winstrol as he is used to it could have an impact on his mental competitive edge, and that combined with having to be checked may have frustrated him to the point that he didnt fire.

I know that sometimes horses just do not fire and you never really know why they didnt for sure.

I know that prior to the race I was not aware of even one person saying or writing that the horse looked anything but dead ready to run but now there are many that say otherwise.

So, I would expect people with high horse racing IQ will list things that it MAY have been but not claim to know for sure what happened or did not happen.

I know that waiting to hear what comes out of the Dutrow camp and/or any Vets/Farriers say that look at BB may tell us something.....or it may not.

[ddog]

i know that we will never know.

he didn't look right to me on the track from what i could see.
that's hard to post before they get to the track.

I know that 10 strides out of the gate or so, he looked done to me.

that's hard to post before the race.

I know I didn't bet on him.

I did know that before the race, but who cares?


I am sure some posters on this site have posted that he would not be a play for them due to the works,etc.

I did not read the threads indepth before the race but i bet there are some in there.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow, when I first came in here I thought the horse racing IQ would be much higher than with the average group of people on the street. How foolish of me.Ahh...an insult to the board. How very nice. What did the board ever do to you?

In any event, what we have here is a community of folks with a common interest. Not everyone is going to be to your liking or express grade A material in every post.

[Greyfox]

Big Brown :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Triple Crown schedule :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[KMS]

I don't get the hostility toward a horse. He didn't go out there and take a dive so you'd lose money. I promise you those horses have no conception of the socioeconomic infrastructure that depends on their running around in circles. They just go out there and run, some faster than others, depending on all kinds of factors, some of which can be predicted, and some of which can't. There are a lot of things worthy of getting mad at in this game. The horses aren't one of them.

[beenacoach]

My post was critical of those posters that were totally off base in the theories they were posting. Not to each and every member of the board.

I suppose you would have found it more acceptable if I had said something like "Everyone in here is an ignorant Ba***rd".

But as you know that is not my style. Although I suspect that my taking exception to that style has a LOT to do with your critiscism of my post.

[Dave Schwartz]

Who hyped him? People did! Fans did! The media and connections did! And they all knew better, too!

Flame,

Imagine criticizing a Tiger Woods because he didn't when the Masters!

Good post and right on!

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[beenacoach]

You cant blame BB and if kent D had ridden the same race and BB fired today he would probably be a triple crown winner and everyone would be lauding KD for getting the horse outside out of trouble.


Some folks just have to find a villain some place I guess.

[Tom]

Big Brown :ThmbUp:

Triple Crown schedule :ThmbDown:

Actually, the schedule did what is was supposed to do - seperate the wheat fro the chaff. REAL champions handles it. This bum didn't. Whatever the reasion, he is the eqivalent now of Lawyer Ron. And his place in history is the most pathetic run at imortality ever - most go down fighting - this one went down.....like a friggin tractor pulling off to a lunch break. :lol:

Schedule :ThmbUp:
BB:ThmbDown: (Try Fedex next time-when it absolutley has to be there at the wire!)

[The Hawk]

This bum didn't.

Yeah, he's a real bum. He's only worth $50 million.

What do you suppose you're worth?

[Tom]

I'm not a horse, dude.
What are you worth?
Never mind. I'm outta change.

[LemonSoupKid]

Tom is right. There really hasn't been a scenario for the lightly raced "greats" like this to win --- he had every opportunity and looked the best. And he can't even give us a stretch run? The whole thing stinks.

Unless they start running at 2 it seems we won't see a Triple Crown winner. Breeding for speed isn't helping, either.

That performance was a dud and for all the expectations that we've had, he was a bum today. Let's call a spade a spade.

[LottaKash]

I will still stand on my original assumption, that this steroid issue is way bigger that presumed.........America is a culture hell bent on self destruction, at least with drugs....One only has to look at pro sports at the way the steroid issue is handled, all those wonderful records being broken by people on steroids......How can we not, relegate this issue, as if it doesn't matter, to horse racing...In the end I think this can of worms will surface it's ugly head, and the truth will be known.......How about an overdose of steroids, on top of the legal dosage..?...Is that Possible ?...If that is true, than this superior champion, has every right to be a loser without his fix of super-tonic.......

In America, we are giving our children substances on the recommendation of teachers, a controlled substance, Ritalyn, that is, as controlled as morphine, and banned by other civilized natiions, and we are sending our children off to school in that condition, nice and calm.... And .Big Pharma also wants our children to take medicine to lower their cholesterol,, where does it all end in this drug-crazy country......

I find it very easy to believe that shenanigans are in the mix, concerning this steroid use.. .....These days anything is possible.......This could, given the enormous amount of money that changed hands recently, to breed BB, may well turn out to be the hoax of the Horse Century.......Perhaps, that is why Dutrow, was perspiring so profusely.??
Maybe he got nailed........

I surely hope this is not the case, but my gut, tells me things about greed and the rampant use of drugs in this modern day society we live in.....And at this juncture in our history anything is believable...who knows?... And will we ever, if bb nevers ventures back on to the track again ??.......

For me, if I had a broodmare, I wouldn't go to BB ...Now that, would really be gambling......as I see it.....Until I know more, my eyebrows are still raised up...




I can't wait for the movie to come out.........:lol:

best,

[LemonSoupKid]

The steroids have little to nothing to do with it --- especially with a horse who can't get a placebo effect or increased confidence, due to different (no) pyschology.

You think he knows he's getting steroids? You think those doses really mean something? It's laughable.

I'm against drugs, but the horse just didn't have it. Period. Otherwise he would have won. Against this competition? Period.

[MNslappy]

he is the eqivalent now of Lawyer Ronhttp://www.calgarybroadcasters.com/NO/nielsen_l2.jpg
Surely you can't be serious...

[LottaKash]

The steroids have little to nothing to do with it --- especially with a horse who can't get a placebo effect or increased confidence, due to different (no) pyschology.

You think he knows he's getting steroids? You think those doses really mean something? It's laughable.

I'm against drugs, but the horse just didn't have it. Period. Otherwise he would have won. Against this competition? Period.

You may well be right...But what of all those Homeruns, and world record setting track and field perfomances ?......Placebo...?.....that's all.....

best,

[Burls]

I promise you those horses have no conception of the socioeconomic infrastructure that depends on their running around in circles.

:lol: :lol:
Amen to that.

I'll admit that I singled BB on the top layer of an EX, a TRI and a SPF.
What sense could it possibly make to be mad at BB over that?
Remember kids: Never bet what you can't afford to lose.

[Wickel]

Big Brown's is a horse who needs time between races. Dutrow said so himself after the Derby. Could it be that three races in five weeks caught up with him? Could be. I personally think that Desormeaux panicked early in the race.Wanted so bad to get outside that he overreacted. Should have stayed snug on the rail and he probably would have slipped through early in the backstretch, or at least eased out to a more comfortable position. But with all that said, I just don't think Brownie had it in him today. Too bad Casino Drive wasn't around to pick up the pieces. Or better yet, Colonel John. Next year.

[cj's dad]

he didn't look right to me on the track from what i could see.


Different opinion here- I was there and he looked fine to me, great in fact.

[botster]

Big Brown's is a horse who needs time between races. Dutrow said so himself after the Derby. Could it be that three races in five weeks caught up with him? Could be. I personally think that Desormeaux panicked early in the race.Wanted so bad to get outside that he overreacted. Should have stayed snug on the rail and he probably would have slipped through early in the backstretch, or at least eased out to a more comfortable position. But with all that said, I just don't think Brownie had it in him today. Too bad Casino Drive wasn't around to pick up the pieces. Or better yet, Colonel John. Next year.

This exact move by the jock is what caused the crack to blow.I wonder how much that foot was blocked today???These runners cannot take the stress, especially in these big races that are so closely scheduled together.

The steroids are not an issue, mabey a year down the line...yes.Does anyone really believe that he didn't give the steroid as regularly scheduled???

[kenwoodallpromos]

Take a tall lightly raced horse with great potential;
have him win 2 TC legs;
apply massive presure to horse, rider, connections;
have the mindset of others in the race to deny the TC;
allow Big Brown to be boxed in, then run him very wide diagnally behind 2 others in the most tiring race.
Put it all together and you get no big names to draw fans to the sport.
IMHO the TC is not phoney enough. In auto racing laps are given, in BBall stars are allowed to foul more; in many major sports deferrence is given to stars.
It is time to rig the Belmont when a horse has won the KY Derby and Preakness by requiring other competitors to be ridden by lousy jockeys then penalize connections heavily if they do not clear a rail path for the potential TC winner.
It was said that in a race earlier in the day at Belmont the stewards failed to properly take down a favorite; and that today's Belmont track was much faster than yesterday's, and a longshot kept the lead in the Belmont Stakes. If less classier races are rigged in favor of the favorite, why not the Belmont?

[JustRalph]

Tom, you sure know how to rile them up!! :lol:

Nice! :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

This exact move by the jock is what caused the crack to blow.I wonder how much that foot was blocked today???And you know the "crack blew" how? Has that been reported? And if the foot was blocked, he wouldn't have felt the "crack blow," would he?

I'll leave it to the resident horsemen and horsewomen to correct any mistakes.

[Imriledup]

BB losing this race had little to do with the foot problem and a lot to do a lot of other things.

[Sailwolf]

Big Brown's is a horse who needs time between races. Dutrow said so himself after the Derby. Could it be that three races in five weeks caught up with him? Could be.

Could be.

Animals are not machines.

I pass the race. Did not like the odds

Oh well

aim for next year.

[jognlope]

Dutrow doesn't give a rip about being appropriate or being Todd Pletcher's behavioral twin. He's immune to the flap because he's been through his own horror and nothing can touch that. You cannot please people -- be nice, they complain. Be appropriate, they complaint. Be giving, they complain. Be honest, they complain the worst. Dutrow takes care of himself and his own and that's all that matters to him.

[JBmadera]

Big Brown's is a horse who needs time between races. Dutrow said so himself after the Derby. Could it be that three races in five weeks caught up with him? Could be. I personally think that Desormeaux panicked early in the race.Wanted so bad to get outside that he overreacted. Should have stayed snug on the rail and he probably would have slipped through early in the backstretch, or at least eased out to a more comfortable position. But with all that said, I just don't think Brownie had it in him today. Too bad Casino Drive wasn't around to pick up the pieces. Or better yet, Colonel John. Next year.

Exactly what I thought when I watched the race and I also agree that Kent's ride probably did not impact the outcome of the race, it will just add to the speculation that the game is rigged ( shady failed penny stock trader as one of the the owners, shady trainer w/drug baggage, sometimes brilliant rider w/a history of not ridding horses out to the wire)

Bottom line - I think this is the greatest game in the world and if you don't think so, inspite of all its warts, try sitting out for a DECADE like I had to do.

Now to the important business - what's the weather forecast for NY on Wed since there are a bunch of turf races carded during the P6 sequence...:jump:

As we use to say "there's always fresh"

[Sailwolf]

Tom is right. There really hasn't been a scenario for the lightly raced "greats" like this to win --- he had every opportunity and looked the best. And he can't even give us a stretch run? The whole thing stinks.

Unless they start running at 2 it seems we won't see a Triple Crown winner. Breeding for speed isn't helping, either.

That performance was a dud and for all the expectations that we've had, he was a bum today. Let's call a spade a spade.


Just like the Lakers are going to be ??????????:lol: :D

[The Hawk]

Tom, you sure know how to rile them up!! :lol:

Nice! :ThmbUp:

I'm hardly riled up. In fact, I bet against Big Brown (and lost).

As a fan of the game, I appreciate any horse who gets 90,000 out to the track on a hot and humid day. Ok, he lost, for whatever reason. But if that's a bum, we need more bums, in that regard. My point was Tom really is a bum, and he's calling a multi-million dollar horse a bum. I guess it's ironic to me.

See Ralph, here's a smiley face :) to prove I'm not mad!

[ryesteve]

It was said that in a race earlier in the day at Belmont the stewards failed to properly take down a favoriteWhich race are you talking about? The only incident that comes to mind is the firster that checked hard in the 2nd, but the favorite wasn't involved in that, and there was no objection.

[KingChas]

Go big brown, join the other baseball players, track stars and whoever, who are in the "Hall of Shame".....you are nothing but an average horse, who pretended to be a champion..........



Love to hear from people like you.

The "New Americans"

If you had any oo's ,you would have posted this before the race.
:rolleyes:

Who's the Phoney?

[MadMax]

I think there are about 15 horses over the course of the past 10 years that would have kept Big Brown from winning even one of these TC races.

[badcompany]

People always try to pinpoint one reason for an event, when it's usually a combination: the heat, running three races in a such a short period of time, the distance, and, maybe, the injury.

[jognlope]

That's so true, a combination of things, and now I am sure that Kent running him into the butt of the winner than doing a side pass to the outside at 35 mph pissed off and ruined BB's winning spirit.

[HUSKER55]

I wonder if Dutrow had any money at stake and on which horse? I stayed out of the race because I didn't think BB looked right. As I said on other posts I think his feet problems are worse than anyone knew.

My complaint is that they raced that horse and they KNEW his was not in good health for this race and there is no way to do anything to those crooks. (There are pictures of his feet bleeding in other posts)

I think BB did what he could but the odds were clearly against him thanks to Dutrow and the rest of his cronies.

I am thinking a betting conspiracy. That is how little I trust his connections.

husker55

:)

[KingChas]

That's so true, a combination of things, and now I am sure that Kent running him into the butt of the winner than doing a side pass to the outside at 35 mph pissed off and ruined BB's winning spirit.

Maybe it was true the horse never got or liked getting dirt in his eyes.
He sure did at the start of the race

[sally]

People always try to pinpoint one reason for an event, when it's usually a combination: the heat, running three races in a such a short period of time, the distance, and, maybe, the injury.

this is probably closer to the truth-- if you remember the first two legs of the TC, BB blew everyone out of the water and wanted more--remember the perked ears, no hard breathing--he SHOULD have done the same here-- it wasn't the ride- when KD asked him he SHOULD have taken off like every time before-- when BB was in the paddock I thought hey he looks a little weary, maybe from the heat? , but then when he got to the track he looked like he was totally up and ready to go-- it wasn't the ride-- I don't know much about steriods but if that's what made BB a monster those first two TC races, then you'd think some of the others would have shown more... anyway just my opinion...

[sally]

I wonder if Dutrow had any money at stake and on which horse? I stayed out of the race because I didn't think BB looked right. As I said on other posts I think his feet problems are worse than anyone knew.

My complaint is that they raced that horse and they KNEW his was not in good health for this race and there is no way to do anything to those crooks. (There are pictures of his feet bleeding in other posts)

I think BB did what he could but the odds were clearly against him thanks to Dutrow and the rest of his cronies.

I am thinking a betting conspiracy. That is how little I trust his connections.

husker55

:)

as much as I love a good conspiracy theory, I can't believe Dutrow would give up the glory of a TC for money-- not with that man's ego....

[Bruddah]

Wow, when I first came in here I thought the horse racing IQ would be much higher than with the average group of people on the street. How foolish of me.

Did you come to this site just to suck up the Horse Racing Intelligencia or maybe add a little something yourself? There are some damn fine handicappers, horsemen and ladies, and computer savy folks on this board. Probably, none better than anywhere else in cyber land. We can always use another intelligent addition. 90% of these folks don't need to be coached, they are looking for Team members. They can be a rough'n tumble group and will go to the mat for their opinions. But, if you need to know something about horse racing, this is where to ask.

Welcome to PA, the home of Horse Racing Intelligencia

[jognlope]

Who said anything about dirt in his eyes? How about a butt in the face and then a nice bump into the outside horse after a 35-mph half pass (not actually a side pass).

[Tom]

I'm hardly riled up. In fact, I bet against Big Brown (and lost).

As a fan of the game, I appreciate any horse who gets 90,000 out to the track on a hot and humid day. Ok, he lost, for whatever reason. But if that's a bum, we need more bums, in that regard. My point was Tom really is a bum, and he's calling a multi-million dollar horse a bum. I guess it's ironic to me.

See Ralph, here's a smiley face :) to prove I'm not mad!

Well, you were wrong twice yeserday, then.:kiss:

[KingChas]

Who said anything about dirt in his eyes?

I was adding that to your "combination of things".
I said it. Purely my opinion. ;)

[JustRalph]

Who said anything about dirt in his eyes? How about a butt in the face and then a nice bump into the outside horse after a 35-mph half pass (not actually a side pass).

reminds me of my early dating years.............it was the 70's you know :ThmbUp: :lol:

anybody know how hot it was on Florida Derby day?

[LottaKash]

as much as I love a good conspiracy theory, I can't believe Dutrow would give up the glory of a TC for money-- not with that man's ego....


For $40 plus Million, anything is possible, given their past mindset............:eek:

Perhaps, the proof will be in the Shedrow ??

best,

[Shenanigans]

I know that I dont have all the information to know for sure what went wrong.

I know I dont blame the ride. BB wasnt ridden any differently than he was before. Saying he should have went to the front out of the gates is silly given that he has never done that before and if it aint broke you dont fix it.

I know that this stuff about Kent D saying the horse didnt feel right is not what I heard right after the race. He said when he went to move he didnt have any horse and when it became apparent there just wasnt any horse under him he eased him. That is NOT the same as saying that the horse didnt feel right. After the initial traffic problem he ended up right where he wanted to be with the exception of being forced a little wider than he would have liked by the horse running in second place.

I know the horse looked sound before and after the race, but the quarter crack could have bothered him (but I doubt it).

I know that IF he did not get Winstrol as he is used to it could have an impact on his mental competitive edge, and that combined with having to be checked may have frustrated him to the point that he didnt fire.

I know that sometimes horses just do not fire and you never really know why they didnt for sure.

I know that prior to the race I was not aware of even one person saying or writing that the horse looked anything but dead ready to run but now there are many that say otherwise.

So, I would expect people with high horse racing IQ will list things that it MAY have been but not claim to know for sure what happened or did not happen.

I know that waiting to hear what comes out of the Dutrow camp and/or any Vets/Farriers say that look at BB may tell us something.....or it may not.


Honey, go do a search on my posts....I never once said anything about the horse looking dead ready to run.... one of my last post said he looked terrible.
You shouldn't be into selective reading. That's a sign of a low I.Q......:lol:

[The Hawk]

Well, you were wrong twice yeserday, then.:kiss:

I was wrong 100 times yesterday, but right once, and that was enough to make a long day profitable. Barely. But that's the game.

Anyway, I knew the loss would lead into a question of whether it was a boat race, which, if pursued, would be worse for the game than the steroid debate in the mainstream press.

[dartman51]

I don't get the hostility toward a horse. He didn't go out there and take a dive so you'd lose money. I promise you those horses have no conception of the socioeconomic infrastructure that depends on their running around in circles. They just go out there and run, some faster than others, depending on all kinds of factors, some of which can be predicted, and some of which can't. There are a lot of things worthy of getting mad at in this game. The horses aren't one of them.

AMEN!!!!

[dartman51]

Tom is right. There really hasn't been a scenario for the lightly raced "greats" like this to win --- he had every opportunity and looked the best. And he can't even give us a stretch run? The whole thing stinks.

Unless they start running at 2 it seems we won't see a Triple Crown winner. Breeding for speed isn't helping, either.

That performance was a dud and for all the expectations that we've had, he was a bum today. Let's call a spade a spade.

He didn't give us a stretch run because KD chose not to. YOU don't know what he had left, KD decided he didn't have enough to finish in the money and did the right thing. Had he beat on him all the way down the stretch and he finished 5th, I guess you would have been happy. In all the years I have been playing the horses, the only folks I heard call a horse a BUM, were those who bet on them. I have lost plenty of money over the years betting on the wrong horses, and it was just that...I bet on the wrong horses, not that the horse was a bum. For the record, I didn't bet on BB because of the odds on him to win were too short. I bet on Tale of Ekati, he didn't run the race that I thought he would and I lost my bet. That doesn't make him a bum. BB's conections are the BUMS, they should have scratched him like Casino Drive's conections did. He hadn't been able to train like normal, and you and his conections thought he would come out and blow this field away. So much for thinking.

[botster]

And you know the "crack blew" how? Has that been reported? And if the foot was blocked, he wouldn't have felt the "crack blow," would he?

I'll leave it to the resident horsemen and horsewomen to correct any mistakes.

Where are all the fellow horsemen/horsewoman disagreeing with my post???.

How foolish Rick Dutrow would look right now if the truth was brought out.The mystery of why he just stopped trying...please.

[PaceAdvantage]

My complaint is that they raced that horse and they KNEW his was not in good health for this race and there is no way to do anything to those crooks. (There are pictures of his feet bleeding in other posts)He ran down behind (thus the "feet bleeding" pix) during the Preakness. This was widely reported and no secret. You were free to use this info in your handicapping as you saw fit....just like everyone else.

[46zilzal]

And BIG SANDY is well known to promote running down even more than most courses.

[PaceAdvantage]

How foolish Rick Dutrow would look right now if the truth was brought out.The mystery of why he just stopped trying...please.Hey man, if you have the truth, let's hear it, complete with footnotes as to your sources.

One guy thinks it's the 'roids, another thinks it's the heat, someone else thinks it's the trip, another thinks his breeding sucked for 12 furlongs, someone else thinks he just "wasn't himself," another will say he didn't like the detention barn, someone else will claim the detention barn prevented the administering of the "real dope," and then there's the feet....those damned feet.....

So, what is it? What's "the truth?" How do you know the "crack blew?" It's a reasonable question on a public forum.

[PaceAdvantage]

And BIG SANDY is well known to promote running down even more than most courses.I saw clearly the back of his legs, and the patches looked perfect to me, in vivid HD....he did not run down Saturday.

[46zilzal]

One guy thinks it's the 'roids, another thinks it's the heat, someone else thinks it's the trip, another thinks his breeding sucked for 12 furlongs, someone else thinks he just "wasn't himself," another will say he didn't like the detention barn, someone else will claim the detention barn prevented the administering of the "real dope," and then there's the feet....those damned feet.....

So, what is it? What's "the truth?"
Very few things in this life are all based upon one thing.

[ddog]

I saw clearly the back of his legs, and the patches looked perfect to me, in vivid HD....he did not run down Saturday.

he didn't run at all seems to me.
looked kinda ok jogging.

:lol:

[Shenanigans]

He didn't run hard enough to run down.....

[botster]

Hey man, if you have the truth, let's hear it, complete with footnotes as to your sources.

One guy thinks it's the 'roids, another thinks it's the heat, someone else thinks it's the trip, another thinks his breeding sucked for 12 furlongs, someone else thinks he just "wasn't himself," another will say he didn't like the detention barn, someone else will claim the detention barn prevented the administering of the "real dope," and then there's the feet....those damned feet.....

So, what is it? What's "the truth?" How do you know the "crack blew?" It's a reasonable question on a public forum.

No inside information here just common everyday horse sense from a guy who has been around equine atheletes and their connections for a while.You CANNOT rush one to race when there is a foot problem... COMMON SENSE!!!!.

I have dealt with these injuries in the past and know once it has been surfaced it needs to be taken care of the proper way.You can't just go on trying to relieve the pain by blocking the coffin joint over and over again and expect to go on working out and racing...especially in these grueling TC events..."NO FOOT NO HORSE" THERE I SAID IT AGAIN:D!!!

[alydar]

No inside information here just common everyday horse sense from a guy who has been around equine atheletes and their connections for a while.You CANNOT rush one to race when there is a foot problem... COMMON SENSE!!!!.

I have dealt with these injuries in the past and know once it has been surfaced it needs to be taken care of the proper way.You can't just go on trying to relieve the pain by blocking the coffin joint over and over again and expect to go on working out and racing...especially in these grueling TC events..."NO FOOT NO HORSE" THERE I SAID IT AGAIN:D!!!

Don't claim to know anyhing about horse care, but my gut tells me that you are on to something.

[Shenanigans]

I am curious as to why they waited so long to patch it. Didn't they patch the day before the race? Ian wanted to patch it the day of but Dutrow didn't want to upset BB? Not patching means it's not healing and there is still infection going on. Ian even stated that in the video clip Cangamble posted. They leave them open to air out, dry up and allow for no moisture to stay in.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am curious as to why they waited so long to patch it. Didn't they patch the day before the race? Ian wanted to patch it the day of but Dutrow didn't want to upset BB? Not patching means it's not healing and there is still infection going on. Ian even stated that in the video clip Cangamble posted. They leave them open to air out, dry up and allow for no moisture to stay in.Wouldn't you want to wait as long as possible, for exactly the reasons mentioned? As soon as you patch it up, there is no going back. The longer you wait, the better the chance that there is no infection brewing in there....

Plus, if there IS something brewing in there, if you wait until the last minute to patch it, perhaps there is less of a chance of affecting his performance on race day.

[JustRalph]

I wonder if that patch is still on?

I read somewhere that sometimes it looks great until they take the patch off or it wears off and then sometimes you can then see a pus buildup and inflammation..........that would be interesting if it turns out that way.

[botster]

I am curious as to why they waited so long to patch it. Didn't they patch the day before the race? Ian wanted to patch it the day of but Dutrow didn't want to upset BB? Not patching means it's not healing and there is still infection going on. Ian even stated that in the video clip Cangamble posted. They leave them open to air out, dry up and allow for no moisture to stay in.

First things first, from what I understand someone in the Dutrow camp noticed the horse favoring that foot two weeks prior.If that was the case it could have been many things going on as far as a diagnosis.My guess is they were tubbing,hosing,and poulticing... that's what you do with a sore foot.By doing this your drawing the heat out, but at the same time your speeding up the process if their is an infection that will ultimatley unmask a quarter crack to begin.These start at the coronary band and will work their way down bleeding and causing much pain to the infected area.Their is a fleshy mass above the coffin joint and this is what becomes infected and bleeds.

When the crack became apparent i don't know, but I do know that some horses are regular candidates for cracks and brittle feet because of their physical makeup.Didn't they report that BB had a shoe loosened and shifted over on his left hind after the race?He may have bad feet to begin with... just a thought.

I am thinking that this foot had been a problem long before the reported two weeks.I am not a T-bred guy, but I know how delicate the bones of these animals are, with that being said regular steroid injections to build muscle CANNOT BE GOOD ONLY DETRIMENTAL.Tendons, ligaments and bones are put under severe strain trying to support the unatural growth of muscles in these animals.Two year olds are given these regularly to build muscle mass quickly and look good in the sale rings.BB had most likely never been off of them and now he is "paying the piper"...I personally see him never racing again.

[botster]

I wonder if that patch is still on?

I read somewhere that sometimes it looks great until they take the patch off or it wears off and then sometimes you can then see a pus buildup and inflammation..........that would be interesting if it turns out that way.

I can only speak from experience, a case in point i once had a horse that had some ability, but just had bad feet and couldn't take the raceday speeds.I soon was patching everywhere in trying to get him to go, ultimatley sounder, but it never happened.

I just feel it in my gut that this is the problem.The only other realistic reason would be that he "tighed up".They said he was acting up during the day, couple that with the heat, and a sore foot and that it would make sense.I am assuming that they pulled blood and tested his levels haven't heard either way on that verdict.

[botster]

I wonder if that patch is still on?

I read somewhere that sometimes it looks great until they take the patch off or it wears off and then sometimes you can then see a pus buildup and inflammation..........that would be interesting if it turns out that way.

Patches can be pulled and reapplied to see if healing and hoof growth is taking place.Ultimatley if the foot had been taken care of properly they do just fall off during normal foot growth.This brings up another point shoeing and BB, but that is another subject all together...LOL.:)

[botster]

I am curious as to why they waited so long to patch it. Didn't they patch the day before the race? Ian wanted to patch it the day of but Dutrow didn't want to upset BB? Not patching means it's not healing and there is still infection going on. Ian even stated that in the video clip Cangamble posted. They leave them open to air out, dry up and allow for no moisture to stay in.

They did the only thing they could do when the TC was in their sites and that was "patch it and go".That foot should have been given more time, that is why he stood off the track with this horse prior for the most part.

Your right shenny from what my friend had told me it was patched the day prior. The question is when did it first surface?It is common place today to do such ignorant practices and get away with it... though the racing gods where having no such happenings on this day.

[slewis]

The steroids have little to nothing to do with it --- especially with a horse who can't get a placebo effect or increased confidence, due to different (no) pyschology.

You think he knows he's getting steroids? You think those doses really mean something? It's laughable.

I'm against drugs, but the horse just didn't have it. Period. Otherwise he would have won. Against this competition? Period.

One of the few on this thread with a clue.

This horse is a living, breathing, animal. He is not a racecar. You dont change the plugs and oil, start her up, step on the gas and go.
I ask my horses what's wrong all the time. I've never gotten an answer.
I ask my VET's what's wrong... and I often get shrugged shoulders.

This is what makes the triple crown such a difficult, difficult, task.
So forget about the steroid nonsense, cheating, blah blah blah because those were not the reasons why BB raced so poorly.
Had he gotten his monthly Winstrol shot, I'd bet the outcome would have been the same.
Big Brown is a sensational race horse. He was not able to achieve triple crown imortality.The timing it takes to accomplish that was not in the the cards for him. Many others have failed, and certainly more will too.
Horses will continue to make liars out of trainers, owners, and bettors.

[bigmack]

Horses will continue to make liars out of trainers, owners, and bettors.
I second that emotion and find it peculiar that so many prattle on about this and that as an explaination for BB's run. Sometimes it just wasn't their day to run. End of story. Next race.

Your thoughts slewis: Would Secretariat have run a much different race had Turcotte held back his colossal club house run?

[LottaKash]

I second that emotion and find it peculiar that so many prattle on about this and that as an explaination for BB's run. Sometimes it just wasn't their day to run. End of story. Next race.

Your thoughts slewis: Would Secretariat have run a much different race had Turcotte held back his colossal club house run?

Yes, very yes, all the bounces in the world have a certain look and feel to them, but this one had the look of stink on it........

[slewis]

I second that emotion and find it peculiar that so many prattle on about this and that as an explaination for BB's run. Sometimes it just wasn't their day to run. End of story. Next race.

Your thoughts slewis: Would Secretariat have run a much different race had Turcotte held back his colossal club house run?

:ThmbUp:

My thoughts are that he would have been exilarating regardless.
But.....
When Onion defeated him at the Spa.. I'm sure there were those that were amazed too.
It's horse racing. Those here that want to jump to the drug/trainer excuse need to put things in prospective and check history.

[PaceAdvantage]

The question is when did it first surface?It is common place today to do such ignorant practices and get away with it... though the racing gods where having no such happenings on this day.I believe news reports first started coming out about two weeks prior to the Belmont. They first planned on patching the Monday prior to the Belmont, but decided to hold it together with steel sutures instead, then work him out a few days before the race. Then patch the day before the big race.

[Shenanigans]

Wouldn't you want to wait as long as possible, for exactly the reasons mentioned? As soon as you patch it up, there is no going back. The longer you wait, the better the chance that there is no infection brewing in there....

Plus, if there IS something brewing in there, if you wait until the last minute to patch it, perhaps there is less of a chance of affecting his performance on race day.

My point exactly. There's still an infection which is why they waited so long to patch it. They patched it only for the race. Had the horse not been entered in the race, there would be no patch on it.;)

[Shenanigans]

First things first, from what I understand someone in the Dutrow camp noticed the horse favoring that foot two weeks prior.If that was the case it could have been many things going on as far as a diagnosis.My guess is they were tubbing,hosing,and poulticing... that's what you do with a sore foot.By doing this your drawing the heat out, but at the same time your speeding up the process if their is an infection that will ultimatley unmask a quarter crack to begin.These start at the coronary band and will work their way down bleeding and causing much pain to the infected area.Their is a fleshy mass above the coffin joint and this is what becomes infected and bleeds.

When the crack became apparent i don't know, but I do know that some horses are regular candidates for cracks and brittle feet because of their physical makeup.Didn't they report that BB had a shoe loosened and shifted over on his left hind after the race?He may have bad feet to begin with... just a thought.

I am thinking that this foot had been a problem long before the reported two weeks.I am not a T-bred guy, but I know how delicate the bones of these animals are, with that being said regular steroid injections to build muscle CANNOT BE GOOD ONLY DETRIMENTAL.Tendons, ligaments and bones are put under severe strain trying to support the unatural growth of muscles in these animals.Two year olds are given these regularly to build muscle mass quickly and look good in the sale rings.BB had most likely never been off of them and now he is "paying the piper"...I personally see him never racing again.

BB has had trouble with his feet from day one. He had been battling quarter cracks before the Derby. This one popping up 2 weeks before the Belmont was no surprise according to the farrier. Dutrow discovered a spot one morning, called Ian, and Ian didn't even have to be told which foot and where.
I don't know if anyone else saw the interview with trainer Bill Mott about BB's sire, Boundary. He said he had "awful feet" and that's what kept him from being a great horse he could have been. He was off more than on and getting him to the races was no easy task.
So here we have a $50 million stallion getting ready to give us more bad footed "wonder-how-good-he-could-have-beens".

[botster]

BB has had trouble with his feet from day one. He had been battling quarter cracks before the Derby. This one popping up 2 weeks before the Belmont was no surprise according to the farrier. Dutrow discovered a spot one morning, called Ian, and Ian didn't even have to be told which foot and where.
I don't know if anyone else saw the interview with trainer Bill Mott about BB's sire, Boundary. He said he had "awful feet" and that's what kept him from being a great horse he could have been. He was off more than on and getting him to the races was no easy task.
So here we have a $50 million stallion getting ready to give us more bad footed "wonder-how-good-he-could-have-beens".

I wasn't aware of him having such bad feet so that answers much...Of course they would "down play" the foot then.

[JustRalph]

BB has had trouble with his feet from day one. He had been battling quarter cracks before the Derby. This one popping up 2 weeks before the Belmont was no surprise according to the farrier. Dutrow discovered a spot one morning, called Ian, and Ian didn't even have to be told which foot and where.
I don't know if anyone else saw the interview with trainer Bill Mott about BB's sire, Boundary. He said he had "awful feet" and that's what kept him from being a great horse he could have been. He was off more than on and getting him to the races was no easy task.
So here we have a $50 million stallion getting ready to give us more bad footed "wonder-how-good-he-could-have-beens".

It takes two to breed right? Maybe the offspring will get their feet from Momma :ThmbUp: That's a 50 million dollar "if"..............

[Shenanigans]

It takes two to breed right? Maybe the offspring will get their feet from Momma :ThmbUp: That's a 50 million dollar "if"..............

50/50 ;)

[joanied]

Ahh...an insult to the board. How very nice. What did the board ever do to you?

In any event, what we have here is a community of folks with a common interest. Not everyone is going to be to your liking or express grade A material in every post.

PA...thanks for posting this...I was trying to find some nice words for 'beenacoach' and his insulting remark... and maybe I will anyway...
beenacoach, if you ever were a coach, you should know better than to make such sarcastic, unfounded remarks to a group of folks...shame :bang: on you!!