View Full Version : Another Year -- Another Disappointment
TripleBrown
06-07-2008, 07:00 PM
A part of me certainly wishes they would find something that could give Big Brown an excuse for performing so badly.
Otherwise, I feel like I wasted the last 3 weeks of my life cruising towards another unjustified disappointment.
Someone needs to step back and rethink what's going on, and start putting a little more of that stamina back into the breeding world. With another year without a living triple crown winner, one wonders if it is a feat that will ever be seen again.
:mad:
A part of me certainly wishes they would find something that could give Big Brown an excuse for performing so badly.
Otherwise, I feel like I wasted the last 3 weeks of my life cruising towards another unjustified disappointment.
Someone needs to step back and rethink what's going on, and start putting a little more of that stamina back into the breeding world. With another year without a living triple crown winner, one wonders if it is a feat that will ever be seen again.
:mad:
that's what makes it special, if it happens every year what does that make it?
I do agree , the stamina needs help , but that dog won't hunt anymore.
Kent D may very well have caused problems for the horse with his ridiculous riding in the first furlong.
TripleBrown
06-07-2008, 07:10 PM
Kent D may very well have caused problems for the horse with his ridiculous riding in the first furlong.
I completely agree.
Or perhaps Big Brown was apalled by how Dutrow was sweating more than he himself, who was running in that 90 degree heat.
cj, you know more than me, but they are not machines finally, i know you know that.
maybe just not today.
next month , same field ,same track, same heat, maybe a FRESHER brown , he kills them.
Shenanigans
06-07-2008, 07:30 PM
Not disappointed at all. The horse walked off the track and was safe back in his barn. His trainer being dealt the hand he deserved. That's how racing works.
TripleBrown
06-07-2008, 07:35 PM
Not disappointed at all. The horse walked off the track and was safe back in his barn. His trainer being dealt the hand he deserved. That's how racing works.
Believe me I like Dutrow about as much as I enjoyed reading Wuthering Heights---which would be minimal if not at all.
At least Curlin is still wearing his crown.
The WindfallAngler
06-07-2008, 07:44 PM
...Long live the Once and Future (18 Grade-1 stakes winning) Triple Crown champion, Affirmed.
As always.
Pell Mell
06-07-2008, 07:53 PM
Kent D may very well have caused problems for the horse with his ridiculous riding in the first furlong.
Not a Damn thing wrong with the the horse other than the stupid jock chocked him down. With a race devoid of early speed what the hell was he doing taking back right out of the gate? Stupid, Stupid! I'm sick and tired of seeing good horses get beat by stupid moves. They tried the same shit with Hard Spun and Smarty got a misjudged ride. When in the hell are they going to learn to let the horse run his race?
Three things I will not miss:
Kent
Dutrow
Molly
Can you spell enough already? :bang::bang::bang:
Living Flame
06-07-2008, 07:57 PM
Not disappointed at all. The horse walked off the track and was safe back in his barn. His trainer being dealt the hand he deserved. That's how racing works.
Yes. Exactly. Towards the end I thought there was something seriously wrong with BB. There wasn't. He just wasn't up to the challenge. I love the horse, and he is a special one, but no more so then Curlin and some of the other champions of today.
I was hoping for a Triple Crown too, but in my heart I knew it wasn't likely with this one. His loss was not a surprise.
Look, I have seen people babble about "the second coming of Secretariat" innumerous times! Beginning with Sunday Silence, I've noticed that every time an exceptionally fast horse comes around, EVERYONE starts comparing him to Big Red and other legends. Remember Mister Frisky? Arazi? Cigar was able to match Citation's winning streak, but he never was able to break it.
We will see a Triple Crown winner. But things have to drastically change in this industry before that will happen. Check out the breeders/trainers/owners of decades past. How did they do things? Copy them, and a Triple Crown will happen. :)
Hedevar
06-07-2008, 07:58 PM
Big Brown did not lose because of the ride. He lost because he is an unsound horse who had run out the string.
Not a Damn thing wrong with the the horse other than the stupid jock chocked him down. With a race devoid of early speed what the hell was he doing taking back right out of the gate? Stupid, Stupid! I'm sick and tired of seeing good horses get beat by stupid moves. They tried the same shit with Hard Spun and Smarty got a misjudged ride. When in the hell are they going to learn to let the horse run his race?
well, i would say , if that was the case, you would have had two three horse down on the track.
he was running over the front animal when he pulled him back.
he wasn't strangling him out of the gate, he broke like a million 1 hole horses do when they are off the rail.
they swerve in and stagger back out to overcompensate.
maybe the ride displaced something but it sure don't look that way after he was back at the barn.
??
NoDayJob
06-07-2008, 08:19 PM
Not a Damn thing wrong with the the horse other than the stupid jock chocked him down. With a race devoid of early speed what the hell was he doing taking back right out of the gate? Stupid, Stupid! I'm sick and tired of seeing good horses get beat by stupid moves. They tried the same shit with Hard Spun and Smarty got a misjudged ride. When in the hell are they going to learn to let the horse run his race?
When are you planning to take your tack to the track and show us how it should be done??? I'll be looking for you at the track after you steam off a few dozen (???) pounds. Unless you've been in a Jocks shoes, it's not fair to be critical. Are you willing to lay your life, and possible crippling injury on the line? I think not! :bang:
Pell Mell
06-07-2008, 08:25 PM
well, i would say , if that was the case, you would have had two three horse down on the track.
he was running over the front animal when he pulled him back.
he wasn't strangling him out of the gate, he broke like a million 1 hole horses do when they are off the rail.
they swerve in and stagger back out to overcompensate.
maybe the ride displaced something but it sure don't look that way after he was back at the barn.
??
Learn to watch a race! 10 strides out of the gate, just as the 6 is getting clear of the 4, and BB is actually 2nd at that point with NOBODY blocking his path, Kent yanks his head so far to the left he twists BB neck. Freeze the frames and you can't miss it.
Living Flame
06-07-2008, 08:35 PM
It was a very weird ride, but honestly, even with a perfect ride, looking back on the race you can kinda see that it just wasn't meant to be. I don't think the ride is what did BB in. *shrugs*
I wouldn't want to be kent right now, though. That guy is gonna catch hell!:blush:
Learn to watch a race! 10 strides out of the gate, just as the 6 is getting clear of the 4, and BB is actually 2nd at that point with NOBODY blocking his path, Kent yanks his head so far to the left he twists BB neck. Freeze the frames and you can't miss it.
10 strides beats many a horse.
:eek:
Marshall Bennett
06-07-2008, 08:47 PM
Kent D may very well have caused problems for the horse with his ridiculous riding in the first furlong.
I beleive your right . Looked more like a rodeo ride right out of the gate .
yeah, if only the jocks got to ride in slow mo.
I found it to be a very hard race to watch. I was confused with Kent's ride in the beginning of the race and Big Brown looked rank. But I guess the racing gods have spoken and it wasn't meant to be.
I thought he would win after I heard that Casino Drive was scratched. I didn't think any of the other horses were that good and Big Brown's Beyers towered above the rest. I bet Casino Drive's owners are mortified. This would have been the perfect opportunity for Better Than Honor's offspring to win three consecutive Belmont Stakes. Thats some pretty bad luck for Casino Drive.
beenacoach
06-07-2008, 09:43 PM
It is pretty interesting that prior to the race nearly everyone KNEW that BB would win. Now that he didnt those same people all KNOW why he lost. They really KNEW about the same amount in each case I think. I really expected more horse racing IQ in this forum than what I am seeing.
OTM Al
06-07-2008, 10:25 PM
If anyone really cares two Belmont stakes winning jocks I was with after the race said it wasn't the ride, it was the horse. They thought he was rank from the start and he was done 100 yrds out of the gate
well that's what i saw FWIW.
10 strides , he wasn't there.
thespaah
06-07-2008, 10:49 PM
Not a Damn thing wrong with the the horse other than the stupid jock chocked him down. With a race devoid of early speed what the hell was he doing taking back right out of the gate? Stupid, Stupid! I'm sick and tired of seeing good horses get beat by stupid moves. They tried the same shit with Hard Spun and Smarty got a misjudged ride. When in the hell are they going to learn to let the horse run his race?well I won't say "stupid"..But the loss was in part due to "pilot error"..
Desormeaux had the horse on the inside going to th efirst turn. Obviously the horse was in the bit pretty good. KD tried to get him to relax but ran up on the two in front and then snatched up the horse. Clearly the replay showed that was the first of many times BB threw his head up. It looked like the horse was bothered by the start/stop of the ride.
Once BB was clear but out in the 5-6 path he finall settled. On the far trun Desormeaux again was in cruise an dthe horse anted to go. In Desormeaux's own words he said the horse "thought it was time to go and got into the bridle" Again, the replay showed BB throwint his head up.. By that juncture the horse was already out of contention. At the 3/8th's Desormeaux finally moved his hands up the reins and began to buzz the horses neck and got little repsonse..BB 's day was done...
Dr.SwineSmeller
06-07-2008, 10:52 PM
Kent D may very well have caused problems for the horse with his ridiculous riding in the first furlong.
Is that the gospel truth or what? Kent was like driving drunk I thought.
That was God awful. You got the rail captured early at a mile and half, you ride that sucker all the way to the strecth and save ground. No brainer. the rail wasn't any slower than rest of the track. Track surface was even.
Dr.SwineSmeller
broadreach
06-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Puzzling early tactics, but even so what a huge letdown after all the hype. :ThmbDown:
They shoulda let Shaq ride him!
PurplePower
06-08-2008, 12:27 AM
I wish Kent would have let BB run to the lead and see if he could beat them from there. Having missed six days of training then sharpening quickly within 3 days of the race could have had BB primed like football players that go flat after the kickoff.
Had Kent let him run early and he ran out of gas, which he would have today - (if that 10 strides cost him he would more likely have run out of gas mid-stretch than going into the far turn) - everyone would have vilified him for not holding him back and saving something for the stretch. I would rather that Kent have not made such a big deal about the "vision" his son would have of a TC winner. Does that mean his son will now have a permanent image of his father pulling BB up at the top of the stretch?
I've like Kent since he came to La Tech and rode a horse for his borther Keith who was a student in the program I had there at Tech. He was enthusiastic, talented and happy to ride any horse a trainer would ask him to ride. He revived his career moving to New York. Today, he was giving another reminder that he is not the athlete actually running the race.
kenwoodallpromos
06-08-2008, 01:58 AM
It is pretty interesting that prior to the race nearly everyone KNEW that BB would win. Now that he didnt those same people all KNOW why he lost. They really KNEW about the same amount in each case I think. I really expected more horse racing IQ in this forum than what I am seeing.
People on this forum predict the race based on what they know historically about the horse. It is not our fault the connections had no confidence in the horse to be forwardly placed and still have something left in the tank, or that the horse would not perform as well without the monthly steroid shot, or that others would block the path, or that the horse would be rank in the morning in the stall, or that the track would be sped up, or that the 2 leading horses would go so wide on the backstretch and last turn.
Let the horses run without steroids, run on the same speed track, run and work on a softer track, run after having a quiet week in the stall, run without a target oon his back for the good of the sport. In other words, as something that maybe Andy Beyer would say, let the horses run with a level playing field, then see what it can do.
Of course, maybe racing would get too predictable then?!!
PaceAdvantage
06-08-2008, 02:40 AM
Kent D may very well have caused problems for the horse with his ridiculous riding in the first furlong.May very well have = absolutely did.
I'm not saying BB would have won with a different jock aboard, but give me a break with the antics going into the first turn....are you kidding me Kent? Talk about messing with the horse's head.....
And then, after the unnecessary roller derby going into the first turn, it's wide, wide, wide, wide baby all the way around....
WinterTriangle
06-08-2008, 03:01 AM
He lost because he is an unsound horse who had run out the string.
Plenty of athletes overcome, or at least out-perform, problems of physiology and breeding.
The key is proper therapy for injuries and "healing time."
(Patch-jobs don't qualify.)
There were plenty of great jockeys out there today, sitting on some great horses. Other than DoC, they didn't win, place or show, either.
Demoreaux's ride was far from *brilliant* (IMHO, never is) , but I'm quite sure *brilliant* would not have changed anything.
Picture Robby Alborado on board......Big Brown might have been 7th instead of last? :p
Lateralus
06-08-2008, 04:08 AM
Anyone who runs, bikes, lifts weights, etc. knows that some days you just don't have it. You don't have a cold, the flu, you aren't dehydrated, everything's fine but once you hit the trail you're flat: it takes more effort to run or bike at a far slower pace than you're used to. You have to lower your bench press by 20# and you struggle to squeeze out 2 less reps than normal. But, you go through the motions and finish your run, ride, or lifting as pathetic as they may be that day. And you leave the gym or get off the trail with no clue as to why this happens. You just know that it does sometimes.
Honestly, Kent may have given a very poor ride, but I don't think BB wins this race no matter what happens today. I think the "flat" days I mention in the first paragraph can happen to horses and any other living athlete; he just had one of those days I mentioned above. For whatever reason, he just wasn't himself today. Bad luck, bad day for it to happen, but it can happen to anyone, even a horse. I'm just thankful it wasn't some other jock who might have whipped him into oblivion in an attempt to get him to do what he didn't have in him that day.
PaceAdvantage
06-08-2008, 04:11 AM
Nice post. Even most of the great ones get beat a few times. We all know that.
broadreach
06-08-2008, 04:40 AM
Anyone who runs, bikes, lifts weights, etc. knows that some days you just don't have it. You don't have a cold, the flu, you aren't dehydrated, everything's fine but once you hit the trail you're flat:
Ok, but isn't it the trainer's job to detect things like that? Pre-race Dutrow was as cocky as always.
Lateralus
06-08-2008, 04:56 AM
Ok, but isn't it the trainer's job to detect things like that? Pre-race Dutrow was as cocky as always.
Well sure, but this wasn't a race he could just pull out of because his horse didn't look like he was his normal self today. Also, yes he was cocky but he had to be otherwise he would have let on that he believed something might be wrong. But also, even when horses don't feel like running or are flat for whatever reason, they can and do still win races even with their B game, especially if they are as much better than the field as BB was today. You just don't know until they hit the track. I think BB could have won with his B game. Obviously today was a day when BB couldn't bring his B game or even his C game but there was no way to know that until the race is being run. Again though, I'm just glad KD had the wisdom to not try and whip him into something he would not have been able to deliver today under any circumstance.
JustRalph
06-08-2008, 05:05 AM
Ok, but isn't it the trainer's job to detect things like that? Pre-race Dutrow was as cocky as always.
What? With his special horse mind reading ability? A trainers license isn't a special pass to the world of of the magical horse whisper............Some are better than others..........sure.........but how the hell could you have seen this coming? Maybe a clue from the last workout...? who knows. If it was the foot........fine......Dutrow gets demerits for running him........but I don't think that is the case.
Sometimes they just don't show up............ when he was rank early on............ I swallowed hard and realized he was in trouble. It happens........hell, it happens to me a couple of times a week......... from 4k claimers to the top of the heap. Sometimes they just don't show...........end of story.
Topcat
06-08-2008, 05:35 AM
Big Brown did not lose because of the ride. It may not have beenhis best ride but Kent is a good jockey who took him to 2 big wins. We all knew Big Brown was not of the triple crown caliber of an Affirmed, we might have liked to believe differently but we all really knew that he was winning in weak fields. He simply ran out his string as good horses do-great horses have longer strings.
samyn on the green
06-08-2008, 05:40 AM
Busted hoof patched together with elmer's glue and spackle from home depot at Aqueduct
No bottom in a 12F race, went from nowhere to big time too fast.
Light worktab and treated with kid gloves always saving something for later, ended up having nothing but leftovers from a few weeks ago.
Went nuts in detention barn, kicking rearing and acting up.
1-4 odds should of sealed the deal as a horse we should have tried to bury.
Sailwolf
06-08-2008, 05:47 AM
well that's what i saw FWIW.
10 strides , he wasn't there.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?columnist=cronley_jay&id=3431435
I like the last paragraph.
Next race
Sailwolf
06-08-2008, 05:50 AM
[QUOTE=1-4 odds should of sealed the deal as a horse we should have tried to bury.[/QUOTE]
1/4 odds on a 1 1/2 mile race. Lets try to win on another race
PASS
Cratos
06-08-2008, 09:02 AM
Busted hoof patched together with elmer's glue and spackle from home depot at Aqueduct
No bottom in a 12F race, went from nowhere to big time too fast.
Light worktab and treated with kid gloves always saving something for later, ended up having nothing but leftovers from a few weeks ago.
Went nuts in detention barn, kicking rearing and acting up.
1-4 odds should of sealed the deal as a horse we should have tried to bury.
An excellent observation and I agree that Big Brown was probably not conditioned or ready to run 1 ½ miles. Ken Desormeaux “bad ride” might have loss Big Brown lengths and position in the race if Big Brown was in shape to run, but he wasn’t and Kent’s poor ride just added to Big Brown misery.
However what puzzles me is that I don’t see any comments about the “second coming of Secretariat” that was spattered about before the race and if Big Brown is healthy after a though examination, he can redeem himself down the road against the likes of Curlin.
OTM Al
06-08-2008, 09:14 AM
I would have to say the result of Ken's so called poor ride was that he got the horse out into the clear. You think they might have been a little concerned with Zito's pair maybe tag teaming him? Maybe a little after the felt that there was an attempt to trap him in the Preakness?
The jockey added nothing to anyone's supposed misery. He didn't cost the race. The horse was not there. For whatever reason and I'm sure people will come up with 100 more before the day is out. Race over, next case.
it's kind a funny, people honestly think this trip was a killer at that pace......
strange stuff.
tractable , push button , intelligent horse , derby from 20 hole, give me a break.
that ride had as much to do with that as the man in the moon.
so bad he couldn't even finish with the pack?
i can't recall a single race in 40 years where i thought i had a better feel during the race of a horse's energy level than the jky.
flat and or dead tired horse, happens , it happens.
Overlay
06-08-2008, 09:41 AM
1-4 odds should of sealed the deal as a horse we should have tried to bury.
I was hoping to see a Triple Crown winner. But, as you say, from a betting standpoint, it comes down to value, rather than which horse is most likely to win. Da' Tara was an overlay (almost 400%, by my line) at his odds, and Big Brown was not.
My point about the ride was it possibly caused PHYSICAL discomfort to the horse. There was definitely contact so it is certainly a possibility.
Well sure, but this wasn't a race he could just pull out of because his horse didn't look like he was his normal self today. Also, yes he was cocky but he had to be otherwise he would have let on that he believed something might be wrong. But also, even when horses don't feel like running or are flat for whatever reason, they can and do still win races even with their B game, especially if they are as much better than the field as BB was today. You just don't know until they hit the track. I think BB could have won with his B game. Obviously today was a day when BB couldn't bring his B game or even his C game but there was no way to know that until the race is being run. Again though, I'm just glad KD had the wisdom to not try and whip him into something he would not have been able to deliver today under any circumstance.
True. But the great ones will often win even on off days because of their tremdous fighting heart and will. This was not just an off day.
46zilzal
06-08-2008, 12:41 PM
True. But the great ones will often win even on off days because of their tremdous fighting heart and will. This was not just an off day.
No, this was OUT of his distance ability. OFTEN a reason The Test of Champions is lost.
sally
06-08-2008, 12:44 PM
No, this was OUT of his distance ability. OFTEN a reason The Test of Champions is lost.
maybe, but he didn't seem to even try...he didn't want to race...
GlenninOhio
06-08-2008, 12:46 PM
Clearly, something was not right with this horse.
And I saw a comment (on this thread or perhaps another) to the effect that no trainer is a mind reader and it's just a fact that horses sometimes come up totally flat on race day. Fine. But please ponder the following question.
Under what circumstances would it have been acceptable to this particular ownership group for this horse to be scratched from the Belmont?
"Hey Mike, this is Dick. BB doesn't seem to be himself today and we may want to consider scratching him". Exactly where do you see that conversation between Dutrow and "the syndicate" going?
This may have explained why Dutrow's physical demeanor when they panned to him just before the horses were loading was one of someone about to attend his own funeral.
WinterTriangle
06-08-2008, 01:25 PM
The horse was not there
My brother sent me an email the night before the race.
3 lines only in the message:
I predict BB will do 1 of 2 things:
1) pull up before the race is over
2) come in last
The 3rd line in his message was:
3) Zito one of best trainers in history. He's entering a maiden, set off bells for me.
Did I listen? Of course not. Brother doesn't wager on races. Ever notice those types are often more *right* because they go with their hunches? No money riding on something tends to produce a more "objective view"?????
46zilzal
06-08-2008, 01:26 PM
3) Zito one of best trainers in history. He's entering a maiden, set off bells for me.
Did I listen? Of course not. Brother doesn't wager on races. Ever notice those types are often more *right* because they go with their hunches? No money riding on something tends to produce a more "objective view"?????
Stakes placed, improving winner, not a maiden.
WinterTriangle
06-08-2008, 01:30 PM
Stakes placed, improving winner, not a maiden.
Correct. This was a hunch email from somebody who doesn't wager on horseracing.
So, perhaps you missed my point. Data was incorrect. Hunch was 100%. This was about a hunch. Can't discount them. :)
GlenInOhio: perceptive post. What Dutrow saw and why. Good study in human behavior/motivation.
Pace Cap'n
06-08-2008, 02:07 PM
No, this was OUT of his distance ability. OFTEN a reason The Test of Champions is lost.
Do you suppose he knew how long the race was?
WinterTriangle
06-09-2008, 12:01 AM
Ok, but isn't it the trainer's job to detect things like that? Pre-race Dutrow was as cocky as always.
Huh? You must have been looking at someone else.
Pre-race Dutrow looked like a man about to face his own funeral. He looked worried. And he was sweating like a pig.
I don't listen to what people say----I read their body language. His told the whole story.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 12:19 AM
Do you suppose he knew how long the race was?
No, but energy distributions for the majority of horses are as innate as their gaskins.
BeatTheChalk
06-09-2008, 12:29 AM
Kent D may very well have caused problems for the horse with his ridiculous riding in the first furlong.
It was rough and tumble in there. At one point it looked as if he was
ok - running 2nd down the front stretch.
Then it looked like he jerked his head to the left. I presume KD did that
and he must have had a reason. BB did look RANK until well around the
first turn.
Perhaps with all of that jostling and moving around.He looked like a circus performer for a few seconds. Perhaps KD had no other way to handle the insanity.
Or perhaps the horse did some damage to himself .. with all of those antics ..
we will never know. At least BB looked ok after the race.
Finally I wonder if his training regiment was a cause of the problems. He
had ONE workout in 21 days and was out of synch.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 01:11 AM
From watching all three: this guy doesn't seem able to run at all with horses to his outside. Achilles had his heel too.
PaceAdvantage
06-09-2008, 02:48 AM
...but we all really knew that he was winning in weak fields.The Belmont was the weakest field of them all....
From watching all three: this guy doesn't seem able to run at all with horses to his outside. Achilles had his heel too.
He did just fine when he rated inside in the Preakness.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 12:46 PM
He did just fine when he rated inside in the Preakness.
Let's see: he tired to get out around the first turn when laped outside and then was 4 wide down the back side. Just watched the race so it is a fresh observation.
Preakness:
"BIG BROWN was taken in hand along the inside nearing the first turn, brushed with RILEY TUCKER approaching the backstretch, was wrangled back and angled five wide leaving the three quarter pole, stalked the leaders under confident handling while continuing wide, lodged a bid mid way on the final turn, charged to the front in upper stretch, moved clear under urging nearing the eighth pole then was taken in hand through the final sixteenth."
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 02:04 PM
First time by the stands trying to get out. Head cocked to the outside.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 02:05 PM
Next trying to get out around the first turn.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 02:06 PM
wide down the backside.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 02:07 PM
Wide coming around the final turn.
The point was the horse was fine on the inside. The only reason he was wide is because, as the chart caller says, he was "wrangled" back and dragged out. Kent did the same exact thing on Saturday.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 02:20 PM
Coming by the stands initially trying to get out.
Your pictures don't really show anything. I've watched the race. We'll have to agree to disagree. The horse looked quite comfortable once he settled on the inside to me.
the pace got progressively slower and slower as the race went on. On a fast Belmont strip this Belmont pace wasnt even relatively close to the other races, BB would have had to change his running style (running late unlike his norm). Horses are not machines; BB wanted to run early but probably learned from his previous races when Kent has a tight hold the race is over.
23.82, 48.30, 1:12.90, 1:37.96, 2:03.21, 2:29.56
Splits 23.82, 24.48, 24.60, 25.06, 25.25, 26.35.
Shenanigans
06-09-2008, 07:36 PM
The Belmont was the weakest field of them all....
and he finished dead last in it.;)
Shenanigans
06-09-2008, 07:39 PM
Clearly, something was not right with this horse.
And I saw a comment (on this thread or perhaps another) to the effect that no trainer is a mind reader and it's just a fact that horses sometimes come up totally flat on race day. Fine. But please ponder the following question.
Under what circumstances would it have been acceptable to this particular ownership group for this horse to be scratched from the Belmont?
"Hey Mike, this is Dick. BB doesn't seem to be himself today and we may want to consider scratching him". Exactly where do you see that conversation between Dutrow and "the syndicate" going?
This may have explained why Dutrow's physical demeanor when they panned to him just before the horses were loading was one of someone about to attend his own funeral.
Great point. I thought the whole entourage looked a little frazeled walking over. "Alley" Capone being one of the "escorts" really topped off the "mafioso" appeal the group has going for it too.....:p
joanied
06-09-2008, 08:33 PM
Not disappointed at all. The horse walked off the track and was safe back in his barn. His trainer being dealt the hand he deserved. That's how racing works.
Yes, it's wonderful that BB went back to the barn :ThmbUp: safe....but to say racing works to hand a trainer a terrible defeat because he's outspoken about a horse he loves, admires and respects enough to brag to everyone about...I'm sorry, but that is just wrong.
Shenanigans
06-09-2008, 08:37 PM
Yes, it's wonderful that BB went back to the barn :ThmbUp: safe....but to say racing works to hand a trainer a terrible defeat because he's outspoken about a horse he loves, admires and respects enough to brag to everyone about...I'm sorry, but that is just wrong.
He was bragging on himself and his training, not the horse. Get it right. It's always been a very well known fact that the braggart eventually eats crow in racing. Dutrow has been around long enough to know that. Look at Lukas, Baffert, Zito - egos galore, but they held their tongues when it came to Triple Crown talk and at least didn't trash other trainers. Dutrow made his bed - sleep in it.
joanied
06-09-2008, 08:38 PM
Your pictures don't really show anything. I've watched the race. We'll have to agree to disagree. The horse looked quite comfortable once he settled on the inside to me.
Me too...and I said in another post...Kent should have let the horse stay on the rail...where he obviously wanted to be...if you watch the head on after the break, you can see the confusion in BB's face..he wanted to run straight...along the rail...not get yanked up to the outside. There was plenty of time and ground ahead of them, if Kent wanted the outside, he should have waited until they got through the first turn.
joanied
06-09-2008, 08:40 PM
the pace got progressively slower and slower as the race went on. On a fast Belmont strip this Belmont pace wasnt even relatively close to the other races, BB would have had to change his running style (running late unlike his norm). Horses are not machines; BB wanted to run early but probably learned from his previous races when Kent has a tight hold the race is over.
23.82, 48.30, 1:12.90, 1:37.96, 2:03.21, 2:29.56
Splits 23.82, 24.48, 24.60, 25.06, 25.25, 26.35.
Da Tara may have been the 'speed'...thanks for the splits, Ash...BB could have ran with Da Tara with no problem, then turn on the after burners in the stretch...he would have gotten there, maybe in a slow time, but he'd have won.
Unless....there was something wrong!!
joanied
06-09-2008, 09:06 PM
He was bragging on himself and his training, not the horse. Get it right. It's always been a very well known fact that the braggart eventually eats crow in racing. Dutrow has been around long enough to know that. Look at Lukas, Baffert, Zito - egos galore, but they held their tongues when it came to Triple Crown talk and at least didn't trash other trainers. Dutrow made his bed - sleep in it.
I took it all that he was bragging on the horse...not himself...but you really hate this guy, so that's OK too....
bash him all you want, I still feel very sad for him...not IEAH, just him. And of course, Kent D too...will he get over this?
PaceAdvantage
06-09-2008, 09:09 PM
"Alley" Capone being one of the "escorts" really topped off the "mafioso" appeal the group has going for it too.....:pWhich one was he, exactly. I have a feeling I know who you're talking about, and if so, I have some info for you....more details please....
mrbobbyd
06-09-2008, 09:46 PM
Hello everyone : YES I say kent got to excited, Came out hit the two then was rank at the rail tries to go outside crashes into the three horse which most likley knocked the wind out of him, Then went wide the horse said, HEY! what the hell are you doing with me and must have just tossed it in.I have another theory but I"m not going to say it.
Shenanigans
06-10-2008, 10:12 AM
I took it all that he was bragging on the horse...not himself...but you really hate this guy, so that's OK too....
bash him all you want, I still feel very sad for him...not IEAH, just him. And of course, Kent D too...will he get over this?
Who? Dutrow? By the sounds of it, he's ready to revert back to the days of living in a stall and wallowing in his self pity.....:rolleyes:
Shenanigans
06-10-2008, 10:15 AM
Which one was he, exactly. I have a feeling I know who you're talking about, and if so, I have some info for you....more details please....
He? He looked like a "she" trying to be a "he". Butch haircut, sticking their hand in the camera, telling the camera man to "move it".... don't tell me you didn't notice that one playing up to the camera.:p :D
Dr.SwineSmeller
06-10-2008, 10:51 PM
Huh? You must have been looking at someone else.
Pre-race Dutrow looked like a man about to face his own funeral. He looked worried. And he was sweating like a pig.
I don't listen to what people say----I read their body language. His told the whole story.
Dr.SwineSmeller>
Indeed Winter, "paralanguages" tell much more than words spoken, and paralanguage is always a barometer of the real truth...
Wise lady you are...
Dr. SwineSmeller
PaceAdvantage
06-11-2008, 02:17 AM
He? He looked like a "she" trying to be a "he". Butch haircut, sticking their hand in the camera, telling the camera man to "move it".... don't tell me you didn't notice that one playing up to the camera.:p :DOK, I was thinking of someone else....
Da Tara may have been the 'speed'...thanks for the splits, Ash...BB could have ran with Da Tara with no problem, then turn on the after burners in the stretch...he would have gotten there, maybe in a slow time, but he'd have won.
Unless....there was something wrong!!
there is a relative point where distance and acceleration meet, thats when the front runner has a mathematical advantage over horses behind him, closers to far back cant close the gap unless they break physical laws, horses near are spinning their wheels because of the same physical limitations and exhaust themselves. Each split was slower and slower, which means the hold got tighter and tighter on BB until he was done, BB fought Kent from begining to end. He had only one work between races, maybe Kent understood this fact to and thus tried to reserve his energy, BB is a young horse still learning. Look at the pp's of all the greats (with speed) when the pace is slow on a fast track they are always near or on the lead. Billy Turner felt BB was up against it with only one work, its never been done before.
joanied
06-12-2008, 11:09 AM
He? He looked like a "she" trying to be a "he". Butch haircut, sticking their hand in the camera, telling the camera man to "move it".... don't tell me you didn't notice that one playing up to the camera.:p :D
I agree with that...Ms. Mafioso looked :lol: ridiculous...what was that? I hope she and the guy next to her look at that video of feel like the fools they were.
joanied
06-12-2008, 11:13 AM
Who? Dutrow? By the sounds of it, he's ready to revert back to the days of living in a stall and wallowing in his self pity.....:rolleyes:
OK...whatever!!
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