View Full Version : at least he didn't break down
hope he's okay. More negative publicity for racing. One of these years we'll have a TC winner.
the replay shows him getting kicked in the chest. Don't know if that could have had anything to do with it.
Premier Turf Club
06-07-2008, 06:43 PM
He has been really sore all week. He looked awful after his final work.
Unfortunately I didn't use the winner. I'm happy BB at least came back OK. I was really afraid he would break down.
Attached is a picture of his ankles after the Preakness. Credit to Thoroughbred Times.
sally
06-07-2008, 06:44 PM
I don't have a tv...he got kicked in the chest??
chickenhead
06-07-2008, 06:48 PM
I don't think so. now they're saying it's because he was "steroid free" today. Gimme a break.
blind squirrel
06-07-2008, 06:50 PM
thank God,he looked ok after the race.
DeanT
06-07-2008, 06:52 PM
He got booted, but I would bet his air got shut off early, which hit him late, or he bled. He looked fine to me on the track.
JMO.
Burls
06-07-2008, 06:52 PM
Desormeaux had enough sense and decency to let off early in the race, at soon as he realized that something wasn't right, instead of pushing BB into the ground. THAT would have been a real blow for horse racing. ...
russowen77
06-07-2008, 06:53 PM
Dutrow took him off steroids even though they were legal. If he did it cold he might have made a major mistake.
chickenhead
06-07-2008, 06:54 PM
I think BB was actually so embarrassed about how badly Dutrow had sweated through his shirt, he couldn't focus.
Dutrow took him off steroids even though they were legal. If he did it cold he might have made a major mistake.
i think you maybe on the mark here.
Will be interesting to hear the results of the exam.
I think BB was actually so embarrassed about how badly Dutrow had sweated through his shirt, he couldn't focus.
maybe Dutrow took the roids by mistake.
Oh and Musberger MUST BE PUT DOWN!
How does he show up on these telecasts?
Ditch the bum.
What was Kent doing on the first turn?
That looked like dumb move he didn't need to make.
Was there a reason to pull off the rail and into traffic.
banacek
06-07-2008, 06:59 PM
What was Kent doing on the first turn?
That looked like dumb move he didn't need to make.
Was there a reason to pull off the rail and into traffic.
I thought the same thing. Is there something wrong with being 2nd on the rail for a start...why keep pulling him out..Kent kept looking like he wanted to go to the outside.
i reaoly think he had it in his mind to go there since he thought the spped was cheap.
he had beaten those horses by 20 some lengths.
why stay in there and have the dogs die off in front of you.
didn't seem he was winning today no matter which path, he could have pulled the old Cajun ghost ride and it wouldn't have done it today.
chickenhead
06-07-2008, 07:02 PM
I'll start the rumor right here: Betting Coup
usafsso
06-07-2008, 07:03 PM
So now time to speculate.
It was the quarter crack.
It was too hot.
It was too soon.
It was the steroid, or lack of. (so did he deserve the other wins)
He got kicked.
He was jumping in the stall in the morning.
The race was too long.
In short Kent did the right thing by pulling BB back when he felt there was a possible problem. He didn't go to the whip.
I'm glad it didn't happen. The owners are in it for the money only. 99% of the owners are in it for the love of the sport.
JustRalph
06-07-2008, 07:03 PM
I don't believe in Karma..........but for those who do........???
I have to tell you, he looked flat to me when he entered the paddock. What they called "calm cool and collected" looked flat to me.
I didn't like the head hanging low etc...........he just didn't look ready to me.
He has been really sore all week. He looked awful after his final work.
Unfortunately I didn't use the winner. I'm happy BB at least came back OK. I was really afraid he would break down.
Attached is a picture of his ankles after the Preakness. Credit to Thoroughbred Times.
he sure looked like a sore animal.
I don't believe in Karma..........but for those who do........???
I have to tell you, he looked flat to me when he entered the paddock. What they called "calm cool and collected" looked flat to me.
I didn't like the head hanging low etc...........he just didn't look ready to me.
Jr , when it's that hot and humid, they should be sweating a bunch I always maintain.
dry is nice or dry is because they are not wanting run and won't warm up.
I would like to see the whole warmup.
Premier Turf Club
06-07-2008, 07:07 PM
I'll start the rumor right here: Betting Coup
Boy those exotics were light...
38 to 1 1st
7 to 1 2nd
34-1 & 28-1 DH for 3rd.
Those two tri's pay $2k for a buck...;)
I don't know who but somebody put a lot of money into the race pretty confident he wasn't going to hit the board. $15,176,000 in the tri pool. We're not talking a $2 tri here.
Cangamble
06-07-2008, 07:07 PM
I'll start the rumor right here: Betting Coup
I'm with you.
The show prices were really low. Same with the place prices.
Cangamble
06-07-2008, 07:08 PM
Boy those exotics were light...
They were. I didn't cash. I boxed 1-6-10
Tom Barrister
06-07-2008, 07:10 PM
It was a brilliant ride for Desormeaux: the only jockey who can have a horse which starts from the rail in a route race go three wide on the first turn. He did a fine job of strangling down his horse against a stroll-in-the-park pace, too.
I would have liked to see Big Brown win, because it would have been good for racing, Dutrow notwithstanding. As it is, at least there will be one good thing come out of the race: Dutrow might tone it down for a day or two.
Anybody want to take bets on whether Big Brown races again? I'd be shocked if the retirement announcement didn't come very soon.
I did have the exacta, only because I wheeled Denis of Cork first and second with all (except Big Brown, as there was no point in betting the miserable payoffs there).
It was a truly moronic ride. It may not have mattered, unless we find out the banging around caused the poor performance. In that case, it could turn out to be the dumbest ride in history.
Boy those exotics were light...
38 to 1 1st
7 to 1 2nd
34-1 & 28-1 DH for 3rd.
Those two tri's pay $2k for a buck...;)
I don't know who but somebody put a lot of money into the race pretty confident he wasn't going to hit the board.
did they have a super there, what was THAT?
so much money chasing , two horse wheels, it was NEWYAK ZITO BARN with two of those tri horses?
jognlope
06-07-2008, 07:21 PM
He did look out of it in the paddock and I was thinking his system is not the same. The heat can make you crazy, literally. I had a "heat fit" once in Walmart, memorable for those around me I'm sure. Well at least he'll get a rest.
Shenanigans
06-07-2008, 07:23 PM
As always, class eventually prevails.:jump:
He didn't bleed. They'll give us that excuse but please.:rolleyes: Here's the problem: the horse had trouble with a quarter crack 2 weeks out of the race. Dutrow was so full of himself, believing the horse didn't need much training for this "type of company", he backed off him and gave him easy gallops. I heard a report that the last time the horse galloped was yesterday and it was only 1 1/4 miles. :confused: And this guy is calling Servis a moron for his training???? Dutrow is the reason this horse didn't win.
Oh, and anyone that believes that bullshit of BB not being on steroids I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you. Do you seriously think one of the biggest cheating trainers in the country is going to deprive himself of a "level playing field"????? Whatever!!! HAAAAAAA!!!! Go Zito!!!!
Wickel
06-07-2008, 07:31 PM
So now time to speculate.
It was the quarter crack.
It was too hot.
It was too soon.
It was the steroid, or lack of. (so did he deserve the other wins)
He got kicked.
He was jumping in the stall in the morning.
The race was too long.
In short Kent did the right thing by pulling BB back when he felt there was a possible problem. He didn't go to the whip.
I'm glad it didn't happen. The owners are in it for the money only. 99% of the owners are in it for the love of the sport.
You forgot one--IT WAS DESORMEAUX!!
Spendabuck85
06-07-2008, 07:34 PM
The Hooter's chicken wings
DeanT
06-07-2008, 07:40 PM
Boy those exotics were light...
38 to 1 1st
7 to 1 2nd
34-1 & 28-1 DH for 3rd.
Those two tri's pay $2k for a buck...;)
I don't know who but somebody put a lot of money into the race pretty confident he wasn't going to hit the board. $15,176,000 in the tri pool. We're not talking a $2 tri here.
A friend of mine hit them. Let's just say for a guy who pitched Big Brown off all tickets, he did not get paid.
I think the min super bet was a buck at the BEL today. That super should have been much better as well.
As for the place show pools, they are always like that in this situation. BB had around 40% of both the place and show pools throughout.
Winner was 200-1 at betfair. BB was 30 cents on the dollar.
That's my post race betting synopisis. Oh except for the fact that I did not cash anything, but that's not really news :cool:
CryingForTheHorses
06-07-2008, 07:43 PM
It was a truly moronic ride. It may not have mattered, unless we find out the banging around caused the poor performance. In that case, it could turn out to be the dumbest ride in history.
I agree with you CJ,It was a terrible ride!!...Going in the clubhouse turn strangling the horse and clipping heels may have also caused BB to "Fip his phalet". This is only my opinion but if you watch the headon down the backside you will see BB;s head moving erraticly up and down,Tells me he wasnt getting air into his engines,Also if the foot was hurting,That would also cause him not to fire,He may not be limping on it but it could hurt with the concussion of throwing his feet down,As for him getting kicked in the chest I dont think so from what I saw.The bottom line also is that he walked home..Im so dissapointed in his ride
Murph
06-07-2008, 07:43 PM
He has been really sore all week. He looked awful after his final work.
Unfortunately I didn't use the winner. I'm happy BB at least came back OK. I was really afraid he would break down.
Attached is a picture of his ankles after the Preakness. Credit to Thoroughbred Times.Would have been nice to have this news before the race.
Murph
06-07-2008, 07:47 PM
I thought the same thing. Is there something wrong with being 2nd on the rail for a start...why keep pulling him out..Kent kept looking like he wanted to go to the outside.Possibly the jockey reaction to BB pulling hard from the gate. He (KD) wasn't ready to go with DaTara early and the horse looked to fight him over it.
highnote
06-07-2008, 07:56 PM
Give DaTara and Zito credit. They won the Belmont Stakes gate to wire. Even if BB had shown up there is no guarantee he would have won. DT could have improved a lot since the last time they met.
Bad ride by Desormeaux. Looked like he tried to do the same thing that Jerry Bailey did in the Belmont clip they showed before the race -- was it the War Emblem race?. Bailey took his mount to the outside on a muddy track. KD tried to do the same. Why didn't he just sit behind the speed? He must have had instructions to get to the outside and he looked like he was hell bent for election to get there.
He should have waited until the middle of the backstretch when the field would start to string out to get to the outside. I don't get it. What was the hurry? He moved too early on Real Quiet and he moved way too early on BB.
Maybe most importantly... the horseracing gods have a way of determining which horses are worthy of being Triple Crown champions.
Premier Turf Club
06-07-2008, 08:04 PM
I heard in Vegas BB went from something like -450 this morning to -300 by post time. I'm trying to get precise details...
Burls
06-07-2008, 08:06 PM
It was a truly moronic ride. It may not have mattered, unless we find out the banging around caused the poor performance. In that case, it could turn out to be the dumbest ride in history.
I just don't see that.
It may not have been the prettiest ride in history, but KD got the job done and, coming into the final turn, had BB nicely positioned in the traditional spot.
When he prompted BB this time, however, the retro rockets didn't kick in like they always have.
If the final burst had occurred like it always has, people would be congratulating DK on an astutely controlled ride.
As it turned out, BB had no oomph at that point, for whatever reason, and KD is to be congratulated for easing up, when he realized something was seriously awry with BB, instead of pulling the whip out.
KD didn't screw up anything.
He did the right things at the right times throughout the race.
JustRalph
06-07-2008, 08:08 PM
I'll start the rumor right here: Betting Coup
you know, for once I was ahead of the game on that one.......... :ThmbUp:
I actually played it this time..............but I always buy some cheap tickets with the huge fav out.........in the Triple Crown series.
Bernardini was one.........never felt worse about a bet that made so much money.
Now this one.........but I am not so worried about the horse
newtothegame
06-07-2008, 08:14 PM
I just don't see that.
It may not have been the prettiest ride in history, but KD got the job done and, coming into the final turn, had BB nicely positioned in the traditional spot.
When he prompted BB this time, however, the retro rockets didn't kick in like they always have.
If the final burst had occurred like it always has, people would be congratulating DK on an astutely controlled ride.
As it turned out, BB had no oomph at that point, for whatever reason, and KD is to be congratulated for easing up, when he realized something was seriously awry with BB, instead of pulling the whip out.
KD didn't screw up anything.
He did the right things at the right times throughout the race.
I too have to agree here....BB has almost always been on the outside shoulder of the pace and KD got him there again (although it did appear BB was fighting him). When KD realized (as I am sure most of us did watching) that BB appeared not to have anything, HE EASED HIM. What more can you ask of a jock??? Would it have been better to whip him into the dirt? As for sitting behind the speed and staying on the rail, I am sure Dutrow or the owners had some instruction to KD. I believe he rode BB as instructed...his decision came into play when he eased the horse to potentially save him...
For me personally, GREAT ride KD...not that I do but if I had a potential TC winner...you could more then have the ride for me.
As for BB, he didnt have that "perky" look he usually has to me. As one other mentioned, he looked too calm..almost flat. I agree...he didnt appear to be the BB from the derby or the preakness....
you know, for once I was ahead of the game on that one.......... :ThmbUp:
I actually played it this time..............but I always buy some cheap tickets with the huge fav out.........in the Triple Crown series.
Bernardini was one.........never felt worse about a bet that made so much money.
Now this one.........but I am not so worried about the horse
nice hit, always let yourself have a chance to get lucky.
First_Place
06-07-2008, 08:30 PM
First, let me say that I am disappointed that Big Brown didn't win the Triple Crown. Having said that, the race shape turned out as predicted, i.e. Lone E/Unpressured.
Here's a screenshot of my Black Magic software readout:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8362/blambelmontstakes2008lf0.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blambelmontstakes2008lf0.jpg)
Regards,
FP
Marshall Bennett
06-07-2008, 08:37 PM
Wish he would have just let him run at the break and GO !! All that bullshit going into the first turn looked like a wrestling match . Being the smart horse he is , he probably was thinking f--k you jack , ya gonna let me get all beat up before we hardly get started I'll just quit . Anyway , hope that was the case and he's not hurt . :confused:
First_Place
06-07-2008, 08:48 PM
"All that bullshit going into the first turn looked like a wrestling match."
Whatever...THE fact remains: Da' Tara didn't feel any 'real' pressure, set easy fractions, and in textbook wire-to-wire fashion, won the race.
Regards,
FP
Living Flame
06-07-2008, 09:11 PM
maybe Dutrow took the roids by mistake.
ROFLMFAO!!!!!!! Yes, that is it!:lol:
I noticed, too, that BB was a bit too calm before the race. He was not at all attentive and arching his neck like he usually does. I thought that was odd. Um, he was kind of chomping and flipping his tongue around during the race, I've no idea if that means anything but I guess maybe he had some breathing problems. Either way, he wasn't gonna get it today.
After the race, he seemed positively happy when he was walking around the barn. He was perky and very interested in the people around him. He seemed better after the race than before! Nothing wrong with him there.
Hey, didn't Kent babble incessantly about how he "was not gonna make that mistake again", and not make any mistakes this time, blah blah blah? LOL :p
I'm not picking on Kent, I actually feel really bad for him right now. He didn't deserve to win, but he doesn't deserve all the heat he's gonna be taking now, either. You can strive for perfection, but perfection is nearly impossible to create. People screw up, and usually at the worst possible moment. Kent thought he was on Secretariat, and he wasn't.
highnote
06-07-2008, 09:19 PM
"All that bullshit going into the first turn looked like a wrestling match."
Whatever...THE fact remains: Da' Tara didn't feel any 'real' pressure, set easy fractions, and in textbook wire-to-wire fashion, won the race.
Regards,
FP
Da'Tara ran a good race. Only ran in 2.29, though. So not very fast. Still, he won the Belmont Stakes. No small feat. Congrats to his connections.
KD may have done the right thing by pulling up BB. Why do anything else? He knew he didn't have the horse, so I don't see that as particularly brilliant. It is more like common sense.
A great horse finds a way to win. Maybe BB is not the great horse everyone thinks he is? His Dosage profile is loaded with 23 Classic points which suggests that he might be more suited to 9 furlongs.
PaceAdvantage
06-07-2008, 09:24 PM
He has been really sore all week. He looked awful after his final work.A lot of good this does me now....:lol:
A lot of good this does me now....:lol:
did that place empty out as fast as it looked on tv.
One second and then one second later , ghost town.
thought the feed had switched to Aqweduck for a sec.
:)
I'll start the rumor right here: Betting Coup
You're probably being facetious, but I heard somebody say that very thing today. With a purse that big, I don't see it being plausible. What would have been Desormeaux's cut of the Triple Crown purse, about $600K? Why pull a fast one and risk getting caught, when you can make that kind of money legitimately?
beenacoach
06-07-2008, 10:09 PM
Two words........NO WAY
No way in the world that BB was pulled in order for someone to cash a check. Conspiracy theorists abound in todays world but that one is stooooooopid!
jognlope
06-07-2008, 10:12 PM
no steroid shot on 5/15, steroid withdrawal.... weakness, fatique, depression, etc. Look it up.
jasperson
06-07-2008, 10:17 PM
Those are just run down bandages to protect the horses heels and ankles from burning from the dirt and are not a sign of any lameness or soreness. If a horse has bandages the run up to just below the knee that might be a sign of soreness, but not allways. When I had trotters I wouldn't let them go into a race without front bandage just for protection in case the horse made a break and would hit a tendon. It was just cheap insurance.
At least when Dutrow got to the winning circle after the first quarter it shortened the time it took him to get back to the barn after the race.:D
i think the chick was being shall we say a bit of a daffy duck for the tin-foil players among us..
just a guess.
Cangamble
06-07-2008, 10:31 PM
First, let me say that I am disappointed that Big Brown didn't win the Triple Crown. Having said that, the race shape turned out as predicted, i.e. Lone E/Unpressured.
Here's a screenshot of my Black Magic software readout:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8362/blambelmontstakes2008lf0.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blambelmontstakes2008lf0.jpg)
Regards,
FP
I didn't need no dang software to realize that the winner was the only speed. He figured to have an easy mile before the real running began. But because Big Brown was a no show, the real running didn't happen until the eighth pole.
Dutrow took him off steroids even though they were legal. If he did it cold he might have made a major mistake.
Here are some of the symptoms of steroid withdrawal that I clipped from a popular medical website:
Weakness, fatigue, fluid and electrolyte abnormalities, and abdominal pain are common. Blood pressure can become too low, leading to dizziness or fainting. Blood sugar levels may drop, joint pain, muscle aches, fever, mental changes may be noted.
First_Place
06-07-2008, 11:28 PM
"I didn't need no dang software to realize that the winner was the only speed."
Sounds like something Jim "The Hat" Bradshaw would say. :)
Regards,
FP
http://www.medicinenet.com/steroid_withdrawal/article.htm
hibiscus
06-07-2008, 11:53 PM
Boy those exotics were light...
38 to 1 1st
7 to 1 2nd
34-1 & 28-1 DH for 3rd.
Those two tri's pay $2k for a buck...;)
I don't know who but somebody put a lot of money into the race pretty confident he wasn't going to hit the board. $15,176,000 in the tri pool. We're not talking a $2 tri here.
Agreed. My partner played All with All with All without Big Brown just in case the horse ran off the board. When the race was over he was daning around thinking he hit a $40k tri. He was crying when he saw the prices.
It was a truly moronic ride. It may not have mattered, unless we find out the banging around caused the poor performance. In that case, it could turn out to be the dumbest ride in history .
Bingo! You've got the rail you've got speed, use it for gods sake you don't have to send hard but send then get of the rail.and get your horse in rhythm.Lost in all this the the fine ride by the kid on Zito's horse.
badcompany
06-08-2008, 12:31 AM
Where are all the guys who bragged about emptying their phone accounts on BB in the Preakness?
[Crickets]
botster
06-08-2008, 12:31 AM
As always, class eventually prevails.:jump:
He didn't bleed. They'll give us that excuse but please.:rolleyes: Here's the problem: the horse had trouble with a quarter crack 2 weeks out of the race. Dutrow was so full of himself, believing the horse didn't need much training for this "type of company", he backed off him and gave him easy gallops. I heard a report that the last time the horse galloped was yesterday and it was only 1 1/4 miles. :confused: And this guy is calling Servis a moron for his training???? Dutrow is the reason this horse didn't win.
Oh, and anyone that believes that bullshit of BB not being on steroids I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you. Do you seriously think one of the biggest cheating trainers in the country is going to deprive himself of a "level playing field"????? Whatever!!! HAAAAAAA!!!! Go Zito!!!!
Hey shenny i agree with you 110%... quarter cracks are bastards to keep from affecting a horse.I have had a hell of a time getting horses sound with them and i had one of the so called "best patchers" in the game assisting me.
I am not a runner guy, but know the great stress that is bestowed on these horses to go these three grueling races in such a short period of time.It has to affect them in some manner, especially those that have predisposing problems.
The steroid thing was also a joke, yeah I am sure he raced on "oats and water" today...LOL.How many more "black eyes" can this sport take in such a short period of time... something needs to be done fast.
botster
06-08-2008, 12:52 AM
Hey shenny i agree with you 110%... quarter cracks are bastards to keep from affecting a horse.I have had a hell of a time getting horses sound with them and i had one of the so called "best patchers" in the game assisting me.
I am not a runner guy, but know the great stress that is bestowed on these horses to go these three grueling races in such a short period of time.It has to affect them in some manner, especially those that have predisposing problems.
The steroid thing was also a joke, yeah I am sure he raced on "oats and water" today...LOL.How many more "black eyes" can this sport take in such a short period of time... something needs to be done fast.
Oh yeah, who was it again who uttered those words of wisdom??
"NO FOOT NO HORSE"!!!!!
PaceAdvantage
06-08-2008, 03:33 AM
no steroid shot on 5/15, steroid withdrawal.... weakness, fatique, depression, etc. Look it up.All this steroid talk is just that, talk.
How much was BB being injected with each month? Enough to cause withdrawal symptoms? We are being told he didn't get his regular shot on May 15. That means he did not race on steroids in the Preakness either...he looked pretty good on May 17 for a horse who hadn't had steroids since April 15.
Dutrow is many things, but an incompetent horseman isn't one of them. And even if he were incompetent, his vet would have to be incompetent as well. After all, if folks on this board knew that BB could suffer "steroid withdrawal symptoms," don't you think THEY WERE AWARE of this risk as well?
jognlope
06-08-2008, 04:34 AM
It was just the damn heat and all that bumping probably and maybe TBs just need more time off between races. What a crapper. Poor Big Brown. I didn't love him before, but now I do.
jognlope
06-08-2008, 04:54 AM
I like Dutrow. He probably knew he was bragging and he could be called a fool afterward deep down, but he kind of refuses to be dudley doright and I understand that. When you've been through the ringer, what's another little ring of "he was so brash."
jognlope
06-08-2008, 05:16 AM
However, medications do have a half-life and when that half-life is over, kaboom! I know I've been there.
MadMax
06-08-2008, 10:10 AM
I'm thinking the heat affected all the horses...not just Big Brown.
PaceAdvantage
06-08-2008, 01:48 PM
I'm thinking the heat affected all the horses...not just Big Brown.Some are certainly more affected than others. They are all individuals, and they are all managed somewhat differently. This all impacts on how the heat will affect them.
That's why, on a very hot day, you may (hopefully not) actually see a horse collapse from heat exhaustion after a race, while the rest of the field gallops out normally.
46zilzal
06-08-2008, 01:50 PM
Swale died 4 days after a Belmont day like yesterday.
Shenanigans
06-08-2008, 01:52 PM
Sure, the heat probably did effect BB, but I would say the lack of serious training and his hoof problem is what cost this horse the race. Blame the trainer, nothing more. BTW, at least Smarty Jones finished second in his defeat in the Belmont.
What's worse for the legacy ($$$) of Big Brown? Pulling up or finishing third?
46zilzal
06-08-2008, 01:55 PM
Sure, the heat probably did effect BB, but I would say the lack of serious training and his hoof problem is what cost this horse the race. Blame the trainer, nothing more.
Unbridled Song all over again.
All this steroid talk is just that, talk.
How much was BB being injected with each month? Enough to cause withdrawal symptoms? We are being told he didn't get his regular shot on May 15. That means he did not race on steroids in the Preakness either...he looked pretty good on May 17 for a horse who hadn't had steroids since April 15.
Dutrow is many things, but an incompetent horseman isn't one of them. And even if he were incompetent, his vet would have to be incompetent as well. After all, if folks on this board knew that BB could suffer "steroid withdrawal symptoms," don't you think THEY WERE AWARE of this risk as well?
We will likely never know, nor will his connections ever admit it, but it is rather curious how closely his performance matches the symptoms of steroid withdrawal. On Preakness Day, he was only two days overdue for his shot. On Belmont Day he was 23 days overdue. Coincidence ? . . . maybe. Was it the heat ? It was 96 degrees out there . . . maybe, but then again, it was hotter 'n' hell at Gulfstream the day he won the Florida Derby. His foot ? . . . I doubt that one. We all saw how they prepared his foot. He was so solidly cemented together that his body would have fallen off before his foot did. Was he exhausted from the rigors of training ? Now, that could be, but then he just wasn't the champion we hoped he was. Remember Citation ran in and won the Jersey Derby between the Preakness and Belmont just to stay in shape. A bad ride from the jockey ? I don't subscribe to that one either. Watch the head-on view from out of the gate again. He was a handful of trouble from the first jump. I thought Kent did a masterful job of keeping him out of catastrophic trouble several times during the race. This "push-button" horse was running rank through the first half-mile or so. I give cudos to Kent for avoiding disaster which came close a couple of times.
I guess we will all have to believe what we want. Unless further investigation reveals a hard-to-find hair-line fracture ala War Chant or Rags To Riches, I'm going to think it was the missing dose of steroids. The trainer was doing nothing illegal, but that was an eyebrow-raising maneuver.
Shenanigans
06-08-2008, 07:48 PM
Swale died 4 days after a Belmont day like yesterday.
It wasn't the heat that killed Swale.
highnote
06-08-2008, 08:53 PM
What's worse for the legacy ($$$) of Big Brown? Pulling up or finishing third?
Good point. Maybe his connections said to KD that if you can't win, pull him up.
The only time BB looked good was going into the first turn and then getting to outside. He looked like he was finished by the middle of the backstretch.
By the way, what was the Beyer fig for the race?
Premier Turf Club
06-08-2008, 09:09 PM
By the way, what was the Beyer fig for the race?
99.
PaceAdvantage
06-09-2008, 01:36 AM
A bad ride from the jockey ? I don't subscribe to that one either. Watch the head-on view from out of the gate again. He was a handful of trouble from the first jump. I thought Kent did a masterful job of keeping him out of catastrophic trouble several times during the race. This "push-button" horse was running rank through the first half-mile or so. I give cudos to Kent for avoiding disaster which came close a couple of times. Wow. This is a perfect example of how two people can see a race from polar-opposite perspectives.
I think KD gave BB a terrible ride. The reason BB was rank was BECAUSE of Kent D. Forget about avoiding disaster, Kent, in his manic quest to get BB OUTSIDE, almost CREATED disaster.
I'm not saying BB would have won, or ran better with a different jockey, but KD sure did not help anything out there on Saturday. There was absolutely no need for those antics early on in the race. Give the freakin' horse his head. Don't battle him like that. Let him go to the front. THERE WAS PLENTY OF ROOM INSIDE EARLY ON to let BB get to the front. Why treat BB like a PINBALL just so he can get OUTSIDE OUTSIDE OUTSIDE??? And then on top of all that, he's super-wide AGAIN all the way around that first turn, down the backstretch and again into the far turn.
I wouldn't be surprised at all, if BB runs again (and they are claiming Jim Dandy/Travers are next), you see Edgar Prado aboard....that would be my move if he were my horse after that display Saturday.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 01:38 AM
Another reason why Kent underwhelms the crowd repeatedly.
highnote
06-09-2008, 02:08 AM
99.
Interesting. Thanks, Ian.
My Belmont figures, when converted to a Beyer scale, awarded Da' Tara about a 106.
Beyer gave BB a 106 in the FL Derby and 109 in KY Derby.
I gave the Belmont the same figure as I gave BB's FL and KY Derbys -- all three 106.
I gave Casino Drive the equivalent of a 107 Beyer in the Peter Pan. I was sooooooo disappointed when he scratched. He could be any kind.
Shenanigans
06-09-2008, 09:57 AM
It doesn't matter what kind of ride Kent gave BB, the horse RAN OUT OF GAS!!!!! Thanks to Mr. Dutrow's arrogance.
highnote
06-09-2008, 10:06 AM
It doesn't matter what kind of ride Kent gave BB, the horse RAN OUT OF GAS!!!!! Thanks to Mr. Dutrow's arrogance.
Not saying you're wrong, but I don't follow your reasoning here.
Can you explain what Dutrow's arrogance has to do with BB running out of gas?
Thanks.
By the way, a friend just pointed out that had I thrown out BB, my top four speed figure horses made up the superfecta. Only $48K.
Happy to know the figures were reasonable. :) Sad that I didn't bet it. :(
Shenanigans
06-09-2008, 10:14 AM
Not saying you're wrong, but I don't follow your reasoning here.
Can you explain what Dutrow's arrogance has to do with BB running out of gas?
Thanks.
By the way, a friend just pointed out that had I thrown out BB, my top four speed figure horses made up the superfecta. Only $48K.
Happy to know the figures were reasonable. :) Sad that I didn't bet it. :(
I stated in another post that Dutrow thought he had much the best horse therefore he didn't train BB hard up to the race. Yes, the quarter crack came into play, but galloping or jogging a horse a 1 1/4 mile for a 1 1/2 mile race usually doesn't build stamina for that race.;) The horse was not %100 fit, nor was he %100 sound but Dutrow's arrogance thought better. He didn't think he needed a %100 fit and sound horse to win this race "against that type of company". Zito taught him a lesson.:D
Stevie Belmont
06-09-2008, 10:17 AM
I saw the work when he was in it full gallop, the word is after the work he abrublty stopped. I did not see this.
Like the thread said, at least it was not a break down. Thats the first thing I thought watching from the 3rd floor. I video taped it, but it's not G rated version. It's Freakin Zito again!! as he turned for home, and I was like he broke down I kept taping, but stayed in Da'Tara.
Where I was I did not see the break, but saw him on the back stretch, I was aksed how is he doing...I said he is not going like he normally does. Don't like it at all.
Will put pics up later, all in all it was a fun day. Happy the whole thing is over.
highnote
06-09-2008, 11:07 AM
Before I started having kids I used to go to BEL/AQU/SAR every weekend and paddock handicap. Plus we'd follow some of the top NY horses as they raced around the country in big grade 1 races and paddock handicap.
I wish I could have done that with Big Brown. Would love to see if there was any change in him.
Sometimes it may be the case that the trainers don't see the changes in their horses because the changes are subtle and happen daily. A paddock handicapper that gets to know a horse by sight but only sees the horse every 30-45 days will notice a dramatic change.
This would have been a great year to be a paddock handicapper.
very insightfull, agree, i hate not to see the whole horse and all the stuff that leads up to the race, full post parade , warm up walk back , all of it.
i have passed many a race just for that and won't play some tracks (MNR?) that treat that part of it as a joke.
Stevie Belmont
06-09-2008, 11:29 AM
I could not get down there, wanted to. I saw him before the race on the track. I can't say he did not look good. I thought he looked okay. Moving his head towards the pony a little bit, looked a bit eager, ready to go.
They say in the paddock area he was not so good, but not sure how bad.
Benny The Bull looked spectacular before his race.
highnote
06-09-2008, 12:15 PM
i have passed many a race just for that and won't play some tracks (MNR?) that treat that part of it as a joke.
MNR is not too bad if you're at the track. In the winter you can stand above them and look down at them -- which is a weird angle, but it works.
I will also run to end of the tunnel when they leave the paddock so that I can get a good side view of them. It's tough in the winter, though, because they're all furry.
In the summer, they saddle them outside and you can a ground level view of them which is better.
Still, I've always gotten the best results when I could view a horse over time in the paddock and not just once before a race. Some horses may be sweating like crazy in the paddock, but you never know, maybe that is normal for him. What you want to see is something out of the ordinary for a horse based on previous viewings -- either good or bad -- a deterioration or improvement.
46zilzal
06-09-2008, 12:27 PM
very insightfull, agree, i hate not to see the whole horse and all the stuff that leads up to the race, full post parade , warm up walk back , all of it.
You have to know what the assistant starters and the stewards to NORMALLY to understand how to watch pre-race. We have many a very good one go directly to the gate and NORMALLY most would believe this to be a bad thing when it is specific to the animal. Many a winner did that.
Burls
06-09-2008, 07:28 PM
I wouldn't be surprised at all, if BB runs again (and they are claiming Jim Dandy/Travers are next), you see Edgar Prado aboard....that would be my move if he were my horse after that display Saturday.
It looks like that will happen if Dutrow gets his way.
From the DRF Monday June 9:
Dutrow questions Desormeaux's ride
By DAVID GRENING
OZONE PARK, N.Y. - Trainer Richard Dutrow Jr. was still searching for answers Monday morning as to what went wrong with Big Brown, who on Saturday became the first horse attempting to sweep the Triple Crown to finish last in the Belmont Stakes.
Still unable to find anything physically wrong with Big Brown - who was vanned to Dutrow's Aqueduct barn from Belmont Park late Monday morning - Dutrow turned his attention to jockey Kent Desormeaux and the ride he gave Big Brown, and why he felt the need to pull the horse up with a quarter-mile remaining in the race won by 38-1 shot Da' Tara.
"I got people calling me from all over the world telling me I ran a sore horse in the race, the jock had to pull him up," Dutrow said as he stood in his Aqueduct barn's shed row waiting for Big Brown's van. "I don't know why he had to do that. If he felt the horse was sore, yeah, but the horse was fighting him the whole way through the lane and he was fighting the horse the whole way up till the lane. I just don't get the whole thing."
Dutrow said Big Brown showed no signs of being sore and that the quarter crack on the colt's left front foot was fine. Majority owner Michael Iavarone on Sunday said that an endoscopic examination of Big Brown's throat showed no signs of blood or mucus. He theorized that Big Brown might not have cared for the loose, deep track on the hot, sweltering afternoon. Iavarone also said Big Brown had a loose left hind shoe after the race.
The rest:
http://drf.com/news/article/95324.html
Wow. This is a perfect example of how two people can see a race from polar-opposite perspectives.
I think KD gave BB a terrible ride. The reason BB was rank was BECAUSE of Kent D. Forget about avoiding disaster, Kent, in his manic quest to get BB OUTSIDE, almost CREATED disaster.Apparently Dutrow agrees with you. Here is still another snippet from the AP from a couple of hours ago :
“I’m sure he didn’t have any idea what the hell was going on going into the first turn the way (Desormeaux) was switching him all over the damn track,” Dutrow said. “I don’t know what he was doing.” The trainer should know best. It seemed to me that BB tried to duck-out twice in the first 50 yds then tried to run right through the horse in front of him shortly after. Looked like a wrestling match of will-powers between Kent and BB. It looked like Kent saved him from getting hurt in real close quarters more than once. Still, it's hard to explain why he pulled him up with a 1/4m to go. In any event, Dutrow, who saw it all from a different vantage point is really ticked-off. I think you're right about Prado riding next time.
It seemed to me that BB tried to duck-out twice in the first 50 yds then tried to run right through the horse in front of him shortly after. Here's a link to an interesting article and photo from someone who saw what I did.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06092008/sports/cameras_catch_big_on_bad_day_114641.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/06092008/sports/cameras_catch_big_on_bad_day_114641.htm)
JustRalph
06-10-2008, 12:43 AM
This one might be easier to see........although a little grainy
notice Kents Position on the horse............interesting.........but cost him the race??? I don't know.............
http://www.justralph.com/bbrown.jpg
MNR is not too bad if you're at the track. In the winter you can stand above them and look down at them -- which is a weird angle, but it works.
I will also run to end of the tunnel when they leave the paddock so that I can get a good side view of them. It's tough in the winter, though, because they're all furry.
In the summer, they saddle them outside and you can a ground level view of them which is better.
Still, I've always gotten the best results when I could view a horse over time in the paddock and not just once before a race. Some horses may be sweating like crazy in the paddock, but you never know, maybe that is normal for him. What you want to see is something out of the ordinary for a horse based on previous viewings -- either good or bad -- a deterioration or improvement.
You can have a great advantage in being there IMO.
(better have if you have to drive any distance to get there)
:)
If the track feeds would spend more time with the horses then I would have a better chance to keep up.
It is too hard to get and keep decent notes from race to race when you don't get to eyeball all of 'em.
I know this is unrealistic on a tv feed, i just have to play much smaller and less frequent.
I am never comfy.
PaceAdvantage
06-10-2008, 02:46 AM
The break and this alleged "spooking" was the least of their problems. The break looked pretty normal to me, for a horse race anyway....
Shenanigans
06-10-2008, 09:57 AM
This one might be easier to see........although a little grainy
notice Kents Position on the horse............interesting.........but cost him the race??? I don't know.............
http://www.justralph.com/bbrown.jpg
Looks like KD had a balancing act there for a second. Maybe it was the jockey with the problem. Maybe he pulled a heart muscle.:D Can you imagine almost coming off the TC favorite at the beginning of the race????
jognlope
06-10-2008, 10:23 AM
"When horses get in tight quarters, they can get tense and nervous," trainer Bob Baffert said. "That's when the lactic acid starts flowing and they get tired. Then they stop (running)."
jognlope
06-10-2008, 10:27 AM
Dutrow shouldn't know Kent down in public, bad form. Kent won the first 2 legs of the TC for him and obviously made a quick decision after a bad, hectic race.
highnote
06-10-2008, 10:29 AM
Looks like KD had a balancing act there for a second. Maybe it was the jockey with the problem. Maybe he pulled a heart muscle.:D Can you imagine almost coming off the TC favorite at the beginning of the race????
Maybe BB was on some other kind of drug that had some sort of adverse effect? :D
I still don't understand what the big hurry was to get BB to the outside. Hell, they were only into the first turn. If the horse is as intelligent as many claim then why not let the horse decide how to run the race? No horse is going to be suicidal. Why not let him relax and not get too far off the pace. Then wait until 1/2 way through the far turn and make that patented BB Preakness move.
In my opinion, the connections were so nervous that they were afraid to deviate from their gameplan. When someone is filled with uncertainty they try to control things, anything. If they can control something it gives them a sense of certainty, even if what they are controlling is not useful. Sort of like a person who knows they are going to lose their job so they wash the car, clean the house or mow the lawn. At least they can control something when an important part of their life is out of their control.
KD tried to control BB. Dutrow and owners probably devised a game plan and emphatically told KD not to deviate from it. KD probably took them literaly because they came across so strongly to him and figured if he didn't do what they wanted he'd catch hell.
Maybe they should have treated the race like a 10K claimer? They couldn't have done any worse.
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