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View Full Version : Why I Don't Think BB Will Win The Belmont


Cratos
06-06-2008, 01:21 PM
When Big Brown the 2008 Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner is loaded into the gate at Belmont Park around 6p on June 7 thousands if not millions of racing fans in North America and around the world probably will be rooting for him to become the historic and long awaited 12th Triple Crown winner.

I will be one in that large crowd and one of his staunchest rooters because in my heart I believe it will be a big boost (even though short-lived) to a sport I care dearly about.

However in my wagering, I will be betting with my bag of wooden nickels and my handicapping because I don’t think he will smell the White Carnations of New York as the 140th winner of the Belmont.

The Belmont Stakes as all races, comes down to the 5 S’s and I don’t see Big Brown as having the ability to cover them all. The S’s and not in any order of importance are: 1. Speed, 2. Stamina, 3. Strength, 4. Style, and 5. Shape.

In any race a horse must have SPEED for the distance, STAMINA to go the distance, STRENGTH to carry the load for the distance, STYLE to negotiate the SHAPE of the race over the distance.

I have reviewed the past performances of the entries for this year’s Belmont and two horses appear to be the stumbling blocks in Big Brown’s way to the Triple Crown. They are: Denis of Cork and Macho Again. It would be too much to ask in my opinion of the highly touted Casino Drive to get a 1 ½ miles with a winning effort in his 3rd career start at the G1 stakes level. However Casino Drive does have the speed to be an early nemesis in the race to Big Brown.

I suppose the question is: “How did I arrive at Denis of Cork and Macho Again being reasonable contenders to thwart the chances of Big Brown becoming a Triple Crown winner? The answer lies in the performances of Denis of Cork in the Kentucky Derby and Macho Again in the Preakness and how the Belmont pace is when it is historically related to the Kentucky Derby pace.

In this year’s Kentucky Derby which was won by Big Brown by a commanding 4 ¾ lengths looked very easy and the 1 ½ mile Belmont shouldn’t be no problem for him. But wait, looming in the background to Big Brown’s Kentucky Derby victory was a very good performance by Denis of Cork who was running at a pace consistent with getting a 1 ½ mile distance and closing on Big Brown with every stride. At the 6 furlong mark of the Derby, Big Brown was sitting .62 seconds off of the lead and Denis of Cork was dead last and 2.39 seconds off of the lead or about 1.77 seconds behind Big Brown.

However at the finish in the Derby, Big Brown’s lead over Denis of Cork was down to 1.37 seconds and Denis of Cork was in gear. The added ¼ mile of the Belmont should be to Denis of Cork benefit.

In the Preakness Macho Again ran third to Big Brown and finished second to the winner behind by 5 ¼ lengths. But a closer look shows that Macho Again in his late move went 5 wide which on the 1 mile Pimilco strip is a lost of about 1.16 seconds which might have reduced or eliminated Big Brown’s margin of victory in the Preakness.

Lastly when comparing the pace of the Kentucky Derby to the Belmont Stakes pace over the last sixty runnings of each you have the following similarity:

60-year Average Pace Comparison of the Kentucky Derby and Belmont Stakes by quarters:

Kentucky Derby = 23.06, 23.56, 24.63, 25.33, and 25.65

Belmont Stakes = 23.96, 24.35, 25.00, 24.68, 24.87, and 25.80

From this it can be understood that the average 1 ¼ mile of the Kentucky Derby and the first 1 ¼ miles of the Belmont Stakes are run comparatively at the same pace and final time. The Derby 60-year 1 ¼ mile final time average is 2:02.23 seconds and the Belmont 60-year average for the first 1 ¼ mile is 2:02.86 seconds.

My wooden nickels will be on Denis of Cork

Dr.SwineSmeller
06-06-2008, 01:28 PM
Watch Icabod's trip in The Preakness. He came from far back and was in good form at the end. Give him another 1/4 mile and he will contend for the win. He is bred for the distance and he has the late kick to get the job done.

I'm crossing my fingers that Casino is ready to race though. But it doesn't sound good for Casino right now. Especially when the possible injury news comes straight from his camp.

Dr. SwineSmeller

Stevie Belmont
06-06-2008, 02:00 PM
Denis of Cork....You gotta be kidding

KingChas
06-06-2008, 02:04 PM
Watch Icabod's trip in The Preakness. He came from far back and was in good form at the end. Give him another 1/4 mile and he will contend for the win. He is bred for the distance and he has the late kick to get the job done.

Dr. SwineSmeller

Come on Doc?
Icabod was gaining on a geared down Big Brown like a tremendous machine in the Preakness. (NOT)
Your horse Casino Drive is iffy?
Seems like "you guys" are grasping for straws now.

As Mr. Beyer said in the DRF today;
Big Brown is 5 lengths better than the rest of the field.
Oops, that included ..........Casino Drive.

Good luck in your ventures tommorow. ;)

Stareagle
06-06-2008, 02:11 PM
I understand your argument, but why give Macho Again credit for being wide in the Preakness when you didn't give Big Brown credit for being wide in the Derby?

The other problem is that Denis of Cork only made up .4 seconds on Big Brown in the last six furlongs of the Derby, and now you're expecting him to make up over three times as much in the last two furlongs of the Belmont.

46zilzal
06-06-2008, 02:16 PM
Kentucky Derby = 23.06, 23.56, 24.63, 25.33, and 25.65

Belmont Stakes = 23.96, 24.35, 25.00, 24.68, 24.87, and 25.80


EVERY race, not just the big stakes races, is the product of the interactions of the colts there THAT DAY. Averaging them loses all specificity. This field has no one who can keep up with him early and a few that can come late, but, in all honesty, unless the hoof gives out or his early style betrays him, he is long gone.

Cratos
06-06-2008, 02:40 PM
I understand your argument, but why give Macho Again credit for being wide in the Preakness when you didn't give Big Brown credit for being wide in the Derby?

The other problem is that Denis of Cork only made up .4 seconds on Big Brown in the last six furlongs of the Derby, and now you're expecting him to make up over three times as much in the last two furlongs of the Belmont.


You are correct, Denis of Cork did only make up .4 seconds on Big Ground and he did it in a 1 ¼ race. But in a 1 ½ race the consequence is totally different.

Big Brown move at Churchill is noted, but Macho Again I believe made his move in the turn at Pimilco.

Take a look at the 1983 Belmont when the fine son of Seattle Slew, Slew O’Gold made a bold move coming home and stopped the timer in one of the fastest 1 ¼ miles at 1:59.80 seconds in Belmont history only to be gobbled up by Caveat in the last quarter mile as Caveat came off the pace to win going away.

46zilzal
06-06-2008, 02:42 PM
Fastest 1 1/4 in Belmont history, June 1973 1:59, Secretariat or the Thoroughbred Times is incorrect.

But FEW come from far back to win this. The group that finish 1-2-3 are right together at the top of the lane: they just sort themselves out, but few come from the clouds there.

Cratos
06-06-2008, 03:06 PM
EVERY race, not just the big stakes races, is the product of the interactions of the colts there THAT DAY. Averaging them loses all specificity. This field has no one who can keep up with him early and a few that can come late, but, in all honesty, unless the hoof gives out or his early style betrays him, he is long gone.


Lone gone, maybe but in the last 60 renewals of the Belmont Stakes only 8 or 13% of the winners were lone gone. Also only 18.3% of the Kentucky Derby has gone on to win the Belmont. Part of the last statistic is due to the fact that not all Kentucky Derby winners over that period competed in the Belmont.

Cratos
06-06-2008, 03:12 PM
Fastest 1 1/4 in Belmont history, June 1973 1:59, Secretariat or the Thoroughbred Times is incorrect.

But FEW come from far back to win this. The group that finish 1-2-3 are right together at the top of the lane: they just sort themselves out, but few come from the clouds there.

I don't think you read my post correctly. I said Slew O'Gold's 1 ¼ time was one of the fastest in Belmont history, not the fastest. Most casual followers of racing know about Secretariat’s incredible Belmont performance of 1973.

KingChas
06-06-2008, 03:19 PM
This field has no one who can keep up with him early and a few that can come late, but, in all honesty, unless the hoof gives out , he is long gone.

46 said it all.
100% on the money
Thank you sir.
:ThmbUp:

PS; Sorry for deleting his early style,I just don't believe that..... :D

Cratos
06-06-2008, 03:45 PM
Denis of Cork....You gotta be kidding


Sorry I offended you, but being for Big Brown is easy and in my heart I am for him

46zilzal
06-06-2008, 06:44 PM
46 said it all.
100% on the money
Thank you sir.


PS; Sorry for deleting his early style,I just don't believe that.....
Energy distribution: higher %median means more energy used earlier. Numbers would disqualify most colts as Curlin and Rags last year were in the high 66's.

rrbauer
06-06-2008, 07:19 PM
You left out one "S": Superiority! That's the one that counts.

toetoe
06-06-2008, 09:03 PM
Few win the Belmont from far back. The only recent winner from well back that I recall is Victory Gallop. I'm sure others have done it, but usually when an already mediocre race fell apart.

Look at today's Brooklyn. Despite the dreadful field, we can see what it takes to win at 12 furlongs. Tactical speed, among other things.

Cratos
06-06-2008, 10:18 PM
You left out one "S": Superiority! That's the one that counts.


No, I didn’t overlook the S for “Superiority” because as I have consistently said superiority is “Class” and class is the function of the other S’s determined by winning at a given level.

jonnielu
06-06-2008, 10:38 PM
You are correct, Denis of Cork did only make up .4 seconds on Big Ground and he did it in a 1 ¼ race. But in a 1 ½ race the consequence is totally different.

Big Brown move at Churchill is noted, but Macho Again I believe made his move in the turn at Pimilco.

Take a look at the 1983 Belmont when the fine son of Seattle Slew, Slew O’Gold made a bold move coming home and stopped the timer in one of the fastest 1 ¼ miles at 1:59.80 seconds in Belmont history only to be gobbled up by Caveat in the last quarter mile as Caveat came off the pace to win going away.

Your right, BB has to be careful to not get sucked into any early contests and run his own race. Denis of Cork will be coming after him.

Thanks for taking me back to Caveat, after watching him win the FOY I said that would be a good Belmont horse.

jdl

Cratos
06-06-2008, 10:49 PM
Few win the Belmont from far back. The only recent winner from well back that I recall is Victory Gallop. I'm sure others have done it, but usually when an already mediocre race fell apart.

Look at today's Brooklyn. Despite the dreadful field, we can see what it takes to win at 12 furlongs. Tactical speed, among other things.

Since 1948 or the last 60 Belmont winners has won with the following statistics:

Behind at the 1 ¼ mile marker = 55% winners

In the lead at the 1 ¼ marker = 32% winners

Wire-to-wire = 13% winners

I use the 1 ¼ mile metric as a performance indicator because that appears to be where the also-rans begin to fall apart.

loveracing
06-07-2008, 12:54 AM
Macho Again passed Crane at the end of the Preakness for second. Macho Again is the horse to watch more than Crane

russowen77
06-07-2008, 01:26 AM
Breeding wise, neither Macho Again nor Icabad Crane (Holy Bull and Jump Start) are meant for the 12f.

Unless Casino Drive really is a monster or catastrophe strikes I just can't see BB losing this race.