Proposed Rules For Inter-Board Challenge

[PaceAdvantage]

(This is a re-post of the note I left in a thread below...I'm reposting it here so that it has it's own space for replies)

Here's the way we ran contest in the past. I like this format....what does everyone else think???

a) This contest will occur once per week (Saturday), and it should last no longer than 4 weeks, however, this is open to debate. When we've run the inter-board challenge in the past, it was always held 4-5 weeks before the Breeders' Cup, with the Breeders' Cup being the last day of the contest. This time around, perhaps we can make the Kentucky Derby the last day of the contest??? Therefore, the contest really shouldn't start until the first week of April (this will also avoid most of the cancellations we've been seeing this winter) This will also give boards time to field teams, and give me some time to round up some prizes (this isn't guaranteed though)

b) Each board will field a team consisting of EIGHT (8) players. How you determine these 8 is up to each board. They don't have to be the same 8 players every week of the contest, but you are limited to a maximum of eight.

c) At the start of the contest, a list of 8 tracks will be decided upon. These 8 tracks will remain consistent throughout the contest, and will be representative of racing throughout the country. If a particular track isn't racing on a particular Saturday (a cancellation perhaps) a substitution will be made with a track closest in first post time to the cancelled track, geography and class, etc.

d) Each week, each team member from each team will either be assigned a track, or volunteer to take a track from the 8 track list. Once a team member knows which track he or she will be handicapping that week, it is up to that member to PICK ANY 5 races from his or her assigned track, and submit WIN ONLY selections (plus two alternates for each race in case of late scratches) for those five races.

e) ALL PICKS MUST BE SUBMITTED BY 12:00 NOON EASTERN TIME, except for any tracks that run at NIGHT (if there are any). I know the noon cutoff tends to favor the east coast tracks, but we have to draw the line somewhere, especially if we have a lot of teams and players

f) Picks are to be posted on the board from which they originate, in a CLEARLY DEFINED CONTEST SECTION. I will be gathering all the selections and printing them out, so you must be sure I can find them easily.

g) The team with the BEST ROI at the end of the 4 week contest will be the winner, but I will also track win %

h) If on any particular week, you can't field a team of 8 players, then it is permissible for one or more people to double up on the number of tracks they have to handicap.

i) I will be posting the standings and each week's results on the HOME PAGE of PaceAdvantage.Com


That's it so far. I will probably be revising this in the days to come, as the ideas come pouring in.....


What do you think???


==PA

[rrbauer]

Tracks in April

SoCal switches from SA to HOL in April last day at SA is 4/20

NoCal starts Bay Meadows in April (start of month)

Oaklawn closes the middle of April

KEE opens on the 1st wkend in April but closes before the last wkend (CD opens the last Sat in April)

GP will be closing in April before the last weekend

So if you go in April you should spell out for each Saturday which tracks will be represented on which circuit.

[Suff]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Here's the way we ran contest in the past. I like this format....what does everyone else think???

Well I assume... that you don't like anything about mine because your is completely different than mine...... I've been asking for a few days on the who what and how and where and I could'nt get anyone to fess up... only figures that after I spend an hour putting something together.. That I get what I orginally asked for,, But just the same...

a) This contest will occur once per week (Saturday), and it should last no longer than 4 weeks, however, this is open to debate. When we've run the inter-board challenge in the past, it was always held 4-5 weeks before the Breeders' Cup, with the Breeders' Cup being the last day of the contest. This time around, perhaps we can make the Kentucky Derby the last day of the contest??? Therefore, the contest really shouldn't start until the first week of April (this will also avoid most of the cancellations we've been seeing this winter) This will also give boards time to field teams, and give me some time to round up some prizes (this isn't guaranteed though)

Teams are ready? Jack posted two days ago On DRF... I have four boards ready...
[/B]
b) Each board will field a team consisting of EIGHT (8) players. How you determine these 8 is up to each board. They don't have to be the same 8 players every week of the contest, but you are limited to a maximum of eight.


If a board has 25 people work on a card ... how's that regulated?
8 posters is what you mean right?... can't regulate Team size.. any board can have the whole BOARD work on a card.. then have 8 people post them.....?[/B]

c) At the start of the contest, a list of 8 tracks will be decided upon. These 8 tracks will remain consistent throughout the contest, and will be representative of racing throughout the country. If a particular track isn't racing on a particular Saturday (a cancellation perhaps) a substitution will be made with a track closest in first post time to the cancelled track, geography and class, etc.

Check the racing Meet scedules... With winter meets ending and Spring meet starting... thats going to be tough... Santa Anita does'nt run all april... either does Gulf.. Oaklawn..Or a few others...

d) Each week, each team member from each team will either be assigned a track, or volunteer to take a track from the 8 track list. Once a team member knows which track he or she will be handicapping that week, it is up to that member to PICK ANY 5 races from his or her assigned track, and submit WIN ONLY selections (plus two alternates for each race in case of late scratches) for those five races.

Not sure why you want only 5... and I see a situation where somone picks races 6,7,8,9 and the card is rained out after the 3rd race and he only selected the first? It happened today at NY



e) ALL PICKS MUST BE SUBMITTED BY 12:00 NOON EASTERN TIME, except for any tracks that run at NIGHT (if there are any). I know the noon cutoff tends to favor the east coast tracks, but we have to draw the line somewhere, especially if we have a lot of teams and players

as long as there in by Post time of first race... not sure why 12 noon EST time

f) Picks are to be posted on the board from which they originate, in a CLEARLY DEFINED CONTEST SECTION. I will be gathering all the selections and printing them out, so you must be sure I can find them easily.


This is imposible PA,,, Boards Like ESPN.. and DMTC and i would think most boards cannot create special selction forums.. they don't have server access and ESPN isn't going to create a Forum for them and from the one's I've visited...Many just have ONE forum.. any selections You''d look for would be mix's and Mingled with every other post.

g) The team with the BEST ROI at the end of the 4 week contest will be the winner, but I will also track win %



It's a $2.00 win bet right? I personnally think thats Boring.. I like my idea of making exotics part of the contest,,, because they are a HUGE part of handicapping and an even bigger part of Making Money. Does anyone go the track and bet $2.00 win on 5 races? or any amount? [/B]

h) If on any particular week, you can't field a team of 8 players, then it is permissible for one or more people to double up on the number of tracks they have to handicap.

i) I will be posting the standings and each week's results on the HOME PAGE of PaceAdvantage.Com


That's it so far. I will probably be revising this in the days to come, as the ideas come pouring in.....


What do you think???

I have been in and am in a bunch of $2.00 win bet handicapping conests... They're abundant and Boring... I wanted to do something different and adventurous.. and creative.. that allowed for a Lil Handicapping.... A contest like this,,,, someone opens the card... Breezes through it and off the Morning lines makes 5 selections... Most under 3-1 and from 5 races he'll have $10.00 wagered and $18.00 bucks in winnings and thats JUST VANILLA and boring to me


==PA [/B]

[Suff]

I have'nt heard from Gr1... Not sure if he has'nt logged on... or just not sure he wants to do it? I'm kinda getting swamped with e-mails that teams that want to play... and people that want to now the rules so they Can share it on thier Board. So I'm going to take the Bulls by the horns here and Lay down the contest rules and parameters.

First Off.... March 15th is a Satuday.. and I like the idea of starting that day and running 7 straight Saturdays until DERBY Day on May 3rd... and on that day all teams will Handicap the Churchill downs card and Hopefully it will be a close contest and it will decided by the Kentucky Derby and/or the Derby Day card.

.

Now the tracks....


1........Aqueduct main track Meet

2nd track....... This next one's a Lil tricky one... Because its a two TRACK meet Bundled Package

It will be Gulstream Park From March 15th Until March 29th.. then it will switch to Keeneland from April 4 th to April26th... all those days are Saturdays...

3rd track will be Santa Anita...But theres a lil one week Window at the end of April where they are Dark.. its April 26th... So I propose that this team Do one saturday at Hollwood Park on the 26th.. and then the derby day is the following Weekend

4th Track will be the Maryland circuit.. with the Selections spilt Between Laurel From March 15th to March 29th.. Then Pimlico from April 5th to April 26th.

5th track will be Oaklawn.... I think they run until April 12th.. and that would mean... This team would need to one track for two saturdays until May 3rd..... and I'm not sure what track to use for these two Saturdays... any suggestions?

They'll be no ALTERNATE tracks...If the card cancels... then it just cancels.... it will Be to hard for people to Handicapp two tracks "Just in Case" of a cancel. If a card Cancels Mid-card.. then the races run will count...


Team size... it should be 5 people... Each person on each team Handicaps ONE CARD.. But really it does'nt Matter.. Because if a team wants to have 50 people work on card... whats to prevent that? Nothing really... so Team size is MOOT... But at far as posting selections... that would need to be done by the same USERS name each Saturday... What I will Propose to PA is that he Create ONE main Forum for the conest...and then WITHIN that forum he create 6 additional Sub-Forums... ONE for each Track (circuit) and one for babble and general Bullshiting about the conest... Rule questions... and most importantly The RUNNING totals from week to week.


Now as far as HOW to score,,, If you only count WIN bets... then whats the Difference if you give someone $2.00 or $200.00 a race? If only win bets count then Dollar amount is Moot.

Here is what I am suggesting we do..... each team selects 4 horses per race... Two TOP selections and two alternates...

Now, here's where it gets Competive and tough!!! YOUR FIRST selections wins... You get the win price....If your 2nd selection runs 2nd,,, You get the exacta Price! The 3rd and fourth selctions are STRICTLY alternates in the event of sratches.. they are not in play AT ALL if your top two run... and your top two have to run 1-2.. NOT BOXED... if you select 4-9 and it runs 9-4... You get nothing. If it runs 4-9... you get the win price on the 4 and the exacta price on your 4-9.... TOUGH.. but fair... Boxing sucks,,, I hate boxing. And also,,, I am going to take it one STEP further... Your TOP two selctions ( or alternate in case of scratches) are counted in pik3's 4' and 6's. So if your 2nd selection WINS two races and then in the third race Your 1st selection wins you get that PIK3.. and also with PIK 4's and 6's (and doubles also)
( I think this is a great way to REALLY...allow a handicapper to Handicap)... Not just select the OBVIOUS top contender but to sniff out PRICE horse's that will run 2nd and make you money. I really like this idea,, and I hope I don't get to much objection to it.

Example.... You select

r1.....3-2
r2.....11-1
r3.....8-7

And thay run

r1...3
r2...11
r3...7

You would get the $2.00 PIK3...

I KNOW WHAT YOUR THINKING!!!

Now you would think? who's Going to Do all that work? well EACH TEAM WILL DO ITS OWN scoring and submit thier Totals to PA for posting... With 5 teams and 25 or more players... Any mistakes will be picked up on... I KNOW each team and every player will Be following it's Oppoents selections.... I know I will.. I will very aware of what my opponent has selected...

So its simple,, each team does its own totals and submits BY PUBLIC post under the race cards they played. Easy!!

Now.. I have gotten... suggestions that we do a round robin for a couple of weeks and then SEED the teams.. and then play 1st seed plays 10th seed and 2nd seed plays 9th seed and so forth.. But as much as I like that Idea,... Takes to much time, and to much work..

We"ll just play this way.

Each Team submits Thier PICKS for each track and we'll add all THE TOTALS. TEAM with the HIGHEST Total wins.

So Basically it breaks down to this..... On March 15th 5 players from PA will get One of the above tracks... He will handicapp the card and post his selections in the Forum for that track. At the end of the day.. he or the team captain will do the totals and post them Under his selections... simple... to me anyway.

and each Team will do the IDENTICAL thing.

.

[GR1@HTR]

PA format in the past was real smooth, simple and fun cause of all the interaction (8 Player relay team). The only suggestion I would have is because of such the strong interest in the KY Derby is to make the final week a track that all the players should play. That way everyone gets to handicap the KY Derby card...or at least as a bonus to the 8 tracks, toss in just the KY Derby race.

[canuck]

Suff-you make some excellent points--there is so much dough in the exotic pools that to limit an interboard contest to just win only would be a tad one dimensional!!
Also like the self scoring aspect--who would dare cheat with dozens of horseplayers scrutinizing their every move???

As far as the dynamic of team selections--appoint a captain and make him (her) have the final decision. I nominate you as captain of the PA squad.

[rrbauer]

General Observation:

The more that you want to do and the more people that you want to involve, the more there is to negotiate. The more that there is to negotiate, the harder it is to get consensus agreement.

Q: If the PA board hosts the contest why aren't the picks posted here? Won't the contest activity be posted on this board in one form or another anyway?

Suff:
KEE closes on 4/25. CD opens on 4/26.

[justin]

Originally posted by GR1
PA format in the past was real smooth, simple and fun cause of all the interaction (8 Player relay team). The only suggestion I would have is because of such the strong interest in the KY Derby is to make the final week a track that all the players should play. That way everyone gets to handicap the KY Derby card...or at least as a bonus to the 8 tracks, toss in just the KY Derby race.

I like the idea that everyone be allowed to play Churchill on Derby Day if they so choose...it's a special day and I think it merits exception from the normal rules. What better way to close out the contest than by letting every team member make picks for the best card of the day? JMHO.

-Justin

[GR1@HTR]

Yeah, I am a fan of exotic play...More fun and entertaining...But I think to keep the spirit of the somewhat annual event, we should keep it win only for the interboard contest. Perhaps another exotic contest could be held for a different event....
Perhaps The Tripple E (Exotics, Ephedrine and Enema) Extravaganza?

[canuck]

Trying to picture how to cap an enema...

[rrbauer]

Go for the Quad.....add EPO!

[Suff]

Another Board... I've get ready to go.... Brings my Total to about 7 boards ........... on top of last years four.



Hi SufferinDowns,

This is Final Turn (Carol) from The Final Turn website, and we are VERY interested in your Internet Forum Contest.

What is the format? I read some stuff on the ESPN Board, and it looks like the format is TC preps, $100 cybermoney, and 5-man teams.

Do I have that right, or what is the format?

Thanks!

Final Turn/Carol

[Suff]

and just a comment to go with all the latest posts.

I'll use NYRA's contest Just as an example...

You select a Jockey Colony (3) from three different pools of 3.

You select a Trainer Colony (3) from three different Pools of 3

You select a 20 Horse stable of Fillys.. from a pool of 60

You select a 20 horse stable of Colts...From a pool of 60

You select a 20 Horse stable of Older Males and Mares From a pool of 100.

They score.... Different amount of points for Jockey WPS efforts
They score .... Different amount of Poinst for Trainer WPS efforts
They score..... Different amount of points for Horse's WPS efforts

and everything is double for STakes and/or Graded efforts.

Now I'm a relativley New Pace Member.. less than a year... and I know some of you guys go back a few years. I'm not trying to run the JOINT .. or ruffle anyone's Feathers. If you guys have a way of doing things.. and thats absolutely the way you like it. Fine... I'm willing to go along and participate and help in anyway I can. But the example I gave above shows that YOU have to add SOME COLOR to these contest to get a good crowd and make them attractive and Creative and Competitive.

I'm of the opinion of 5 $2 win bets for 4 Saturdays is "YAWN"

I think the way I laid it out is also simple... But with some creativity and angles....

and matter of factly...... due to Meet scedules and other factors... It is impossible to do this the same way you have in the past... and also.. to do something... simply because THATS THE WAY we have always done it!! Is un-american. Americans are open minded,,, always looking for new ways to do things... always trying to improve on things,, and Americans are'nt afraid of trying new things.... And anything that takes Minimal work usually offers Minimal Rewards.... Just because its a new idea,, that may involve some extra effort or offer a Few mistakes along the way... does'nt mean its not good... That means ITS worth trying. God Bless America!!! Lol

[cj]

My simple solution, for what it's worth:

1. Teams of 4 or 5 each Saturday.

2. Each team member gets $100 to spend any way he sees fit, any track.

3. No P3s, 4s, or 6s.

4. Total of the team members is the team total.

Simple, easy to score, creativity allowed for types of races, tracks, etc.

CJ

[Suff]

well... Not quite... what if someone plays 45 $1.00 Tri Keys

25 $1.00 piks 3's..... and 30 $1.00 excata Box's? You think I wanna go in and check all that?

Why can't everyone agree and see that my way is simply head and shoulders the best way? Thats what I see?

Seriously.... whats the aversion to Pik's 3 and 4's and 6's

If I hit a PIK6 with using two selection through 6 races and I hit it!!!! Geezzzz Don't I deserve to be rewarded for that? Thats a $64.oo ticket in real life.. and that is Really HARD to do... as hard as it gets.... so why not get the reward... Not Likley anyone wil hit it....

Also... with a $$$ amount... some one gets behind... they stop handicapping and start betting BOMBS ,, only hoping to get lucky and steal it... I don't know... this is the thread for Ideas.. and I'm trying to stay open minded...... I think what I laid out is an AWESOME way to do it..... I'lll shut up now and let others say it aint,,,

also... TEAMS have to go head to head on the same track... that has to be the way...

[justin]

Sufferin',

How about trying to finalize things one thing at a time? How am I supposed to field a team for another forum if I don't even know how many team members I need? That kind of thing. Take it one thing at a time. That way something is accomplished while still allowing people a say instead of just having a free-for-all and hoping to get 50 different people to agree on 10 different things all at once. As always, JMHO.

-Justin

[Suff]

No your right... But thats what this thread is for... Todays Monday.... I'd assumeeveryone that wants to will have thier say here on this thread.. and by Wed.. Thurs.. Friday... at the latest.. PA will take everything he see's out here and Draw it up... I'd imagine he'd have the final say...

I'm out of work right now.. so its easy for me to say.. But i was trying for a week to get anyone to tell me how they want to do it... and only after I said... OK... No responses... I'll Draft the rules and so forth.. and no sooner had I posted them .. did all the commentary come in.... I sent out a BUNCH of e-mails asking how people wanted to do it... the only replies I got were of "whatever you do.. count me in".......... So I went ahead and Drafted something...... and now we're at this Point... we are reasonable men... by weeks end we'll agree on something I'm sure


Btw are you the Justin that E-mailed me with about.com Board saying you'd also be fielding a Team?

[justin]

Yes, that would be me that mailed you regarding the About team. I understand what you're saying and I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way. I just want to be able to deliver some information to prospective team members. At this point, I just need to be patient. I would've chimed in earlier, but I wasn't even aware of this until I saw your mesage on About. Thanks for your effort at getting this going...it's much appreciated.

-Justin

[cj]

Originally posted by jmilkowski
Yes, that would be me that mailed you regarding the About team...
-Justin

Benedict Arnold :) :) :)

Your former brother,
Craig

[justin]

LOL! Sorry, but I've been there longer and they need me more than you guys...so far we've only been able to get like 4 or 5 people...besides, you saw how I did on Saturday...do you REALLY want my selections? :>

-Justin

[WINMANWIN]

I agree with suff. Why should this contest be a typical
yawner line the drf contests that some of us participate in.
Just win and place bets for $ 2 bucks or $100's is the standard
in the drf contests.Why not TRY something different, like
exacta plays, pik 3's or 4's. I'm open to anything, But, as we
all know, one feels quite good nailing a cold exacta or pik 3
for o.k. bucko's. That way,we can say, Hats off to that player
or board for not only picking that winner, but exacta or pik 3.
It's like the Pinnacle handicapping challenge that we all desire.
To nail a race, and maybe nail it with a nice payoff.Sometimes,
I look at 4 N.y. papers and each paper has 6 different cappers
selecting picks.On occasion They nail high priced exactas, or
thier top 2 selections comprise of a nice pik 3 payoff. Let's go for the ultimate performance, Because in a contest like this
The ultimate team or cappers should be just that.

[Suff]

Originally posted by jmilkowski
LOL! Sorry, but I've been there longer and they need me more than you guys...so far we've only been able to get like 4 or 5 people...besides, you saw how I did on Saturday...do you REALLY want my selections? :>

-Justin

4 or 5? You been to the Board? i just stopped in... there's 33 replies to my post about the contest... You'll have more than enough... Do you hear something? Thats The sound of peoples feelings being hurt?

[GR1@HTR]

Last year PA had over 8 people want in on the PA board. To make it as fair as possible, he had a weekend or day of picks. The top 8 went on to join team PA.

[justin]

Yes, I've been there this evening...I've posted half the messages myself trying to get people to join. Right now, it looks like we have 5 definites including myself. If we end up with more than what's needed, I'll just have to deal with that...for now, I just want to get some idea of who I can count on.

-Justin

[rrbauer]

I'm a "Pik" player, so I like those bets. How about two segments: Race-by-race for one segment and multi-race for the other. Teams get $100 for the r-b-r segment and $100 for the multi-race segment.

[Suff]

RR.. the issue with Giving $100 or any amount is that it really makes it hard to score... if some one plays $20.00 exactas and $20.00 pick 3;s or whatever.. Its going to force the other team to play the same style...

I think we should just base all the payoffs on what $2.00 wager pays and allow them to THEN to use the system I outlined... Two top selections,, and thats it.

If your selecting Horses and the other team is doing 5 horse tri box's... The structure if your bet becomes more important that selecting winners............


Also? are you playing Tampa Tommorrow... or Suffolk or both? I have both cards and am giving them a Good look now....

[GR1@HTR]

I'd like to see the following boards participate:

PA (personal attack)
HTR (defending champs)
Hottalkers (pork lovers)
DRF (old folks home)
Equisim (cartoon horse race simulation)
Horsestreet (press this button)
The Sheets (commie)
Netcapper (if they have 8 users)

[Suff]

Originally posted by GR1
I'd like to see the following boards participate:

PA (personal attack)
HTR (defending champs)
Hottalkers (pork lovers)
DRF (old folks home)
Equisim (cartoon horse race simulation)
Horsestreet (press this button)
The Sheets (commie)
Netcapper (if they have 8 users)

Are you saying.. to not allow the boards to play along?

Espn... del-mar... About.com... Barntowire.com.. Nola.com ... all want to compete? and others?

Also,, Mike told me that PA's won last year?

[GR1@HTR]

Those guys can play to if they want...I was just suggestion the above since a lot of PA members are also members of the above.

Team PA got slaughterd...HTR crushed everyone and was the only to show a positive ROI...Everyone else hacked it up...

[Suff]

LOL... Ok.... Now its ON!!! No one's Gonna Hack up PA anymore....says me!! geez I hope I make the team

[formula_2002]

Suggestion;


THE CONTEST

Number of team members per bulletin board to be determined.

Each team member will make 10 selections (picks) for WIN and Place on 1 single horse per race at any track.

Picks to be posted using track, race number, and saddle cloth number.


1 selection per race will be permitted.


All selections (picks) to be posted on a designated bulletin board before 12:20 p.m. eastern time on contest day.


SCRATCHES


In the event of a late scratch occurs in any race, the actual post time favorite will be substituted for the scratched horse.


POINTS AND HOW TO WIN
use the NTRA and DRF contest format.

Duration of contest to be determined

TIEBREAKERS


In the event of a tie, based on total points, tiebreaker will be implemented in the following order:


Total of winners selected. In the event a tie continues, it will be consider a dead heat (draw).

[Suff]

Originally posted by formula_2002
Suggestion;






POINTS AND HOW TO WIN
use the NTRA and DRF contest format.



Are you talking about the www.publichandicapper.com contest being run by NTRA and DRF? Formula... I'm in that Contest. It's Boring and Vanilla. Why do the same thing that people are already doing? And I'm literally Scratching my head trying to understand why so many Good horse playes simply want to play a WP handicapping contest?

BTW... that Contest you mentioned? I'm playing as sufferindowns. I'm in 30th place from 10,000 entrants. Only $29.00 bucks from the leader. And that Gap will Close this weekend;)

[formula_2002]

Suff...go baby go...knock 'em dead this weekend..


I was referring to the one they have in Vegas..simple because every thing is all well defined.

[Suff]

Refresh My memory please Formula? How's that vegas one go?

and thank you.... yes... I'm off to a good start.. so I'll probably give the races a Good hard look this weekend... too bad this one does'nt come with a trip to the Vegas Tourney... although it should...

If you top... that many cappers... you earned a seat... IMHO

[formula_2002]

Suff

'HOW THE CONTEST WORKS:
To keep our contest consistent with the NTRA National Contest, each contestant will start the day with a $40 imaginary bankroll. Each contestant will have to wager $2 to win and place on each of the 10 live races from "any race track"*. Contestants win or lose imaginary wagers according to actual results of the contest's selected races. The contest will be conducted on the live 10-race card from "any race track"*. You may wager the $2 to win and $2 to place on the same horse...*. You only wager $4 on each race. '

* my edit

This would pre-empt my prevoius note where ever there may be a conflict.

I used the following site for reference.

http://www.turfway.com/news/blowout.html

[Suff]

I got the e-mail Below from one of the Boards.... Its a vote against what I think we should do,,, but in the interest in all the boards having thier say... I'll post it... My reply to him is Bolded underneath his text

>
To: <mdudley.southboston@verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 7:12 AM
Subject: WWW Contest info


>
>
> Hey Sufferin, Bev again:
> O.K just one concern here and from the other boards I've talked to
> I.E Final Turn.
> The thing is that capping a full card is just too time consuming
> esspically for a period of 7 weeks. At most a capper should be expected to
> cap any 5 races but not a full card every week. Also we are fine with the
> winner only format but if you start throwing in exactas and other plays,
> again way too time consuming. Ultimatly over any contest of 7 weeks, the
> best capper will win anyways so we should try and keep this as simple as
> possible so we don't see boards start droping like flies in the middle of
> the contest because they just can't keep up with the work load of capping 5
> full cards week after week.Esspically during Derby season most boards have
> their own contests going anyways.Please keep in touch,
> regards, bev
>
>
To me and its Just my opinion.... To cap one card a week is not much? No
one has to Cap FIVE cards... if you have 5 tracks... and 8 team members...
you could actually rotate the team and cap ONE card every two weeks? Is
that Alot....also... If you Handicap a Race... and I would think that your
team members would... How much harder is it to Find the TOP two contenders
while searching for the TOP contender? To me,, again.. Not much more
work,,,,

So to make the contest a WIN only contest for time reasons ,,, would not save
anytime from Handicapping... If i look at a card... or a race... I usually
sniff out the Top three or four canditates and then I land on one as the
most Likley or one I prefer... Its not ADDITIONAL work to select two or
three horses for the contest... Usuallly I KNOW what two or thee I like,,,
so what Time have I have I saved by only selecting a WIN bet... Not to much
in my humble opinion.
But I do respect your opinion,,and I wll post your e-mail on the Board for
others to see and consider.........Thanks Sufferin



>

[PaceAdvantage]

Note the word PROPOSED on the top of this thread.

Suff, you wanted to know how we ran things in the past....I thought I'd post how we ran things in the past. That's what this post is for.

It worked for us 3 times in the past. People seemed to enjoy themselves. There was a lot of drama in some of them, as they were close until the end.

If everyone else seems to favor your idea, so be it. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers....



==PA

[PaceAdvantage]

PS. I re-read suff's post, and have little to object with his version of the contest. If this is what the people want, I give the people what they want!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Now, the only question that might be left is, who is going to man the PA team???



==PA

[joeprunes]

I like Suffs Idea about exotics,$2 bets seems boring , betting more money on a horse and exotics puts pressure on the handicapper and alot more challanging. Just my thoughts ..joeprunes

[Suff]

PA... In the end... I think Your going to have to... or perhaps you just do it , because you have the controls... Prune Out the opinons and put something together... I Like what STUBALL said... scale it back to....

. 2 selections per race....Win price on top selection

...... $2.00 exacta price is yout top two run 1-2......

and rolling pik3's on your top two selctions


Your almost Locked into the tracks (circuits) I proposed... They're just Perfect for the dates

I mean Laurel to Pimilico is fair

Santa- Anita to H-Wood is Fair

ALL new york is fair

Gulf STream to Keeneland is Fair also

ANd 6 weeks at Oaklawn and two weeks at a TBA is a little Funky but we have to work with what we have right? You find that Team a track for that TWO weeks for April 14th and 26th and Thats a Damn FINE and adventerous Meet schedule...ImHO

What I think you Oughta do is create ONE FORUM called

Internet Board hanicapping contest AND THEN within that Forum

Create a Gulf to Keenland forum for posting of slections
...................NY Forum for the same
...................Laurel to pimlico for the Same
...................SA to H-wood for same
...................Oaklawn to To Be announced

Then maybe one more for teams to come and Register and ask questions and have alll the General talk about the contest...I mean if we have 8-9 teams,, with 8-9 team members.. that might be30-40 people that have a lil something to say or ask ???'s or whatever..... right? So maybe a forum for just that pupose would be good,, But maybe not..... Up to you? also that forum would be for Posting the running Leader Board along the way

So anyway,,, when you have the time... read the posts... and make the rules... OR If you prefer.. Just make the forums.. I'll draw it up Just as I outlined here.. and I will go in and Write it up

Then I'll get back to all the boards... ask them to come to the site.. Get registered... and ASSIGN thier team members and PA users names to the appriatte Forum...... The teams themselves can decide what Circuit thier members will Cover

I think the e-mail from Bever Hinted that he wanted ALL his members to Handicap all the tracks,,, well.,.. that just can't be done timeley... Like he said,,, But for one or two people to Handicap ONE CARD A WEEK,,, is not too much..

So I guess,.. It almost time to agree and JUST DO IT... or NOT agree and just do it...... we could spend a month suggesting things... Whatever you decide,,, I'm ready . willing and able to Participate or assist in anway.... But lets get ready to RUMBLE ok!!!

[Suff]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
PS. I re-read suff's post, and have little to object with his version of the contest. If this is what the people want, I give the people what they want!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Now, the only question that might be left is, who is going to man the PA team???



==PA

A contest to decide our Team is probably in Order... to be fair.. Or... if we wanted.... Looks Like we have about 10 or 12 interested... Let 5 guys take one week and 5 more taking the following week....... But really... thats Kind of the Weak way out...... Just going to have to have a contest... and if anyone does'nt make it... then.... oh well... thats horse racing...As I have said in the past... this aint checkers...this is Chess...

I'm putting a fair amount of effort into rallying the teams... and it would be a lil bummer if I did'nt get to play.... But I'm a Horse player and I live with the way the Chips fall... and I always Keep my chin up...... And I'd root hard for my Team and wish them well either way.

[Suff]

BTW... PA... I'm home Today... I'm going to play Suffolk and Tampa with RR and another guy on the board today. Where are you ? At work? If your not swamped... Stop by and play a race or keep posting on the contest and we'll get as much agreed on and finalized as we can. Some of these boards are salivating to get started... but I agree with you.. let not rush and half-ass it. but if we can it defined by mid-week... to end-week... then great.

Thanks

SUFF

[pic6vic]

I'm at work and did not get to read posts till now. Had to skim through to get the gist.

PA is correct whattever format most people can deal with would be the best.

I think we are all missing something on the handicapping part.
Some people only play a few races a day or have an opinion on a few races from a certain track even though they handicap every race. So why not get peoples best plays and go from there.

Since I follow the southern cal races I would offer a selection or two to the person responsible for that track. The other tracks I would not be as efficient at. Also I have additional info at S Cal tracks that I don't have at other tracks.

I'm sure there are some of us who would like to help with the selections, but don't feel comfortable selecting a lot of races.

What I'm trying to say is I'm interested in helping, but I would not be a good person to handicap all the races even from my home track.

[Suff]

Originally posted by pic6vic
I'm at work and did not get to read posts till now. Had to skim through to get the gist.

PA is correct whattever format most people can deal with would be the best.

track.

absolutely Vic... If I don't make the Team... I know I'll be Breaking down Ny and sending it over to the Pa NY team..

and another thought Just entered my Head (there's lots of room in there)

Why don't we select TWO man teams to handle the card

10 guys... two assigned to each track PLus two alternates... so we'd get 12 guys involved...

BTW... can't recall seeing TOM say he wanted in? Tom? I think your a sharp Capper... with knack for Price horses? The inner contest enough for you.... or are you interested in playing? Or do you want to sit this one out?

For me... I would LOVE to get in... take the NY card... partner up with my Buddy Matt (NYRA-CAPPER)... and as sure as I'm Breathing... NO ONE will beat us!!! BANK THAT!!!

[mudcat]

I like suff's Idea, I handicap a card to the third horse, if you look at all the post on any board except nola there are at least three horses listed per race.
I want to see handicappers do this thing, not people that never look at the pp's, they get just a concensus then post 3 numbers, that is not cappin', put the exotic in there, that's what i say. No single win ,place bets, please. too boriiiiinnnnnnggggggg.
thanks Mudcat

[PaceAdvantage]

Suff,

About the posting on their own boards thingy.....

In the past, the reason why we had it so that teams would post to their OWN board, and I would then transfer the picks to this board, is that they can not then accuse me of altering the picks somehow so that we win the contest.....sort of an audit trail so to speak....

There are reasons why we did things the way we did in the past....some of them were sound and should be incorporated into this new contest....

I guess we should put it up to a vote....


==PA

[Suff]

Changing picks? Thats wierd ... If we have ten Boards... Someone going to visit every board... and... again... I know your busy and have'nt had a chance to visit some of these Boards.. But Posting thier Picks on thier sites... will be really really tough to follow,,, They're just not set-up like yours... If you do it this way... it will take you longer to Visit the boards,,, Find the Picks...Print them.. Transfer the results to our board than it will to Handicapp the races.

No one has any suspicions that we're up to anthing except a Good competitive fun contest. Thats , to me is very odd.. that anyone would be wary of that?

And for the Viewing Public and playing players... it just makes so much more sense to have everything in one place.

Again... these are things I have already gone over with the competing teams... at least the 5 or 6 boards i've recruited.. Everyone knows and No one has expressed any reservations about this being the HUB. I have stated to them all...

We are Hosting the Contest.... so... .... lets. ok?


also... i just got beat by a $34.00 Firster at suffolk...I ran 2nd at
3-5 .

[GR1@HTR]

Something to keep in mind. Since PA is hosting, he is also tracking and posting everyones picks and results. Last year w/ just 4 board participating on win only, I'm sure it was hours of work for poor ole PA each Saturday. Anything more complex could take up his whole day. BTW, I think it should just be limited to the major horse racing boards that are somewhat affiliated w/ the PA board....ie there should be members of the PA board from the boards participating...

[Suff]

why? Espn... del-mar- t-bred club,, Barn to wire... ,,,, I'm very curious... why would'nt you want any of these boards to play?


And... Pa... does'nt have to do the scoring... teams will do ther own scoring and CJ and Myself and others have all offered to do the work. Honestly... i'm getting Frustrated at all the little details that are so inconsequential to the contest. What and why should it matter who plays? and why and what is the big deal about posting the selctions forum...

The thought that PA would change the Picks and cheat and that we'd need to VOTE on something like that is BIZAARRE to me?

we are wasting our energy and debating things that simply do not matter

Sufferin Downs,,,, is tiring in the stretch.

We've been running a Pik4 contest for over two months,,, PA has'nt done anything But play... We've done all the work.. We put it together in two days...........

Really........ stop

[GR1@HTR]

Well, if your tired about bickering about rules, just go with the ones that PA has used successfully in the past. If you don't like em, move on...

[PaceAdvantage]

And all that is COOL. I've already said today that I like your plan, I like your rules, and everything, TO ME, is a GO. It's fine with me that everyone posts here. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I PREFER IT!! Saves us work!! If nobody has a problem with this, fine! I was just pointing out what MIGHT go wrong....but, we'll deal with those hurdles when and if they appear....

So, I will go ahead and write up the official rules, using most of your stuff, if not all of it. I will create the board for the contest. I will contact whatever boards you haven't gotten yet, and we will hope for a go in March (offhand, I forget the date you wanted to start).

Now that we all understand each other, once I open the new board section, we'll tell those who are interested in participating from this board to respond. If we get more than 5 who are interested, we'll make up some sort of contest to settle who will represent PA in the contest....

Sound good??


==PA

[Suff]

BTW

The starting date,,, you can go with march 15th... thats three plus weeks away... The Circuits you have,,, the two weeks that are open on April 19th and April 26th.. When Oaklawn is Dark,, those two weeks Need a track.. or you can leave it TBA for now.

The other Circuits.. I vistited each site and Double checked,,,all the dates match up well.

As soon as you Create the forums.. or forums... and Post the Rules. I'll get the boards to come and review and sign up.

I Do hope it goes well...

As far as the PA team. I say nothing..I'll just follow along to whatever you or others decide.

SUFF

[cj]

Lone Star would be good to follow Oaklawn for the two open dates, lot of the same horses.

CJ

[justin]

I have a team member who has a problem with the 12pm time for posting selections...is it possible to allow people to post their selections later than that given that the card they're 'capping starts later in the day?

-Justin

[GR1@HTR]

This place can't be saved...It has gone to the monkeys...Now PA board now stands for "Planet of the Apes"

[PaceAdvantage]

Keep the acronyms coming....can't get enough of those....

[Suff]

Originally posted by jmilkowski
I have a team member who has a problem with the 12pm time for posting selections...is it possible to allow people to post their selections later than that given that the card they're 'capping starts later in the day?

-Justin

I sugggested to PA that we Just set 5 minutes Before post time as the Cut-off... I think now that we've agreed that all the posts will be on his site... and after reading your posts... I'm pretty sure that he'd be flexible... Same as the Pik4 contest... as long as they are Clearly in before Post time... You should be ok..

PA's Going to work on the Forum soon,,,,Tonight? Tommorrow? and we'll be Concrete by then....

[GR1@HTR]

hehe...Just playing PA...Not personal attacks. The great Ice Storm of 2003 has stiffled the greater DFW metroplex...With not much else do, I could prob come up w/ a few more acronyms. But think I'll play some video games till then...

[cj]

Damn, ice storms to the south, snow storms to the north...we miss all the "good" weather in OKC. I could sure use a free day off work :)

CJ

[PaceAdvantage]

5MTP leaves way too much room to argue....I would say 1/2 hour before post of the first race MINIMUM.......

We are in agreement that ALL picks have to be in before the first race runs, right???? Lord, I hope so!! :eek:


==PA

[cj]

PA,

There comes a point where you have to just post the rules. The players might gripe and complain, but they will adjust. The best handicappers will figure out the best way to attack the contest and adjust to the rules.

I guess I'm saying...post the rules and lets get it on. You have plenty of suggestions, ideas, thoughts, I doubt anything new is coming.

CJ

[PaceAdvantage]

If I could ever get home from my day job (yes, I'm STILL at work), and settle down, I'd gather my thoughts and post some rules.....LOL and Going nuts at the same time....



==PA

:eek:

[PaceAdvantage]

PS. Just got word from hottalkers.com that they are on board for the challenge.....

[cato]

One more thought about participants...

My guess is that we will have more than 5 folks who want to participate. WHy don't we have a PA "A" team, "B" team etc.? As many as we can fill. It s fine to have a contest to see who gets on A, B and C, etc (and call them whatever--a, b, c; red white blue; screaming aardvarks, etc.)

Personally, I would not feel right taking a spot on the A team even if I qualified, because there are so many better handicappers on this board (and people who care more), but I'd be happy to take a slot on an alternative team.

Good? Bad?

Cato

[superfecta]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
5MTP leaves way too much room to argue....I would say 1/2 hour before post of the first race MINIMUM.......

We are in agreement that ALL picks have to be in before the first race runs, right???? Lord, I hope so!! :eek:


==PA As long as Chris Harn doesn't play we should be alright;)

[Final Turn]

I'm glad I stopped by here; things are getting clearer now.

Some suggestions:

1. I would say kick this off in mid-March (March 15th would be good) and take it to Ky Derby Day. This would cover the TC preps (the big ones, anyway), and with so many teams (7, I think), I think you need the added month just for fairness' sake. A month just seems too short. Also, I may be able to help with prizes. Email me, please, and we can discuss this part.

2. I have WAY more than 8 people interested in this contest. My thought was to rotate them based on what track(s) is/are being played on a given Saturday. However, what I would suggest is that we all submit a player roster to you, so that you know in advance who is cleared to play from each Board. That will help keep the players organized, I think.

3. As far as tracks go, is there any way that you can go week-to-week on that, rather than setting 8 tracks in the beginning? My reasoning is that we are following the TC closely, and the preps jump around. Especially starting the contest in mid-March, there are some Saturdays that there are 3-4 preps across the country, and it seems logical to include those tracks with the preps since this contest's last day would be the Ky Derby.

4. I'm assuming that picks have to be posted by noon EDT on the Saturday of the contest?

5. As far as scoring goes, I must say that I like the idea of adding in some of the exotics. If we're posting one horse plus 2 alternates for each race, then why not put in exactas and Tri's? I think, for the sake of scoring sanity, you might want to limit the exotics to those. An endless list of P3's, P4's, and P6's would be very time-consuming to score, and I KNOW what it's like to score contests; I've done it for 4 years+, so make it easy on yourself. (I assume that you'll be the one scoring?).

6. The other alternative to scoring would be to give all the players $100 cyberdollars, and let them bet it WPS with their top selection (the one that isn't an alternate).

7. If you need a common board where all players can post their picks, I'd be happy to donate one from The Final Turn (www.finalturn.com). We have a lot of Forums, and we can easily put up another one for this contest. Just an offer to keep things centralized, so you're not hopping all over the Net to get picks.

Just some suggestions from a veteran contest-runner!

Final Turn

(This is a re-post of the note I left in a thread below...I'm reposting it here so that it has it's own space for replies)

Here's the way we ran contest in the past. I like this format....what does everyone else think???

a) This contest will occur once per week (Saturday), and it should last no longer than 4 weeks, however, this is open to debate. When we've run the inter-board challenge in the past, it was always held 4-5 weeks before the Breeders' Cup, with the Breeders' Cup being the last day of the contest. This time around, perhaps we can make the Kentucky Derby the last day of the contest??? Therefore, the contest really shouldn't start until the first week of April (this will also avoid most of the cancellations we've been seeing this winter) This will also give boards time to field teams, and give me some time to round up some prizes (this isn't guaranteed though)

b) Each board will field a team consisting of EIGHT (8) players. How you determine these 8 is up to each board. They don't have to be the same 8 players every week of the contest, but you are limited to a maximum of eight.

c) At the start of the contest, a list of 8 tracks will be decided upon. These 8 tracks will remain consistent throughout the contest, and will be representative of racing throughout the country. If a particular track isn't racing on a particular Saturday (a cancellation perhaps) a substitution will be made with a track closest in first post time to the cancelled track, geography and class, etc.

d) Each week, each team member from each team will either be assigned a track, or volunteer to take a track from the 8 track list. Once a team member knows which track he or she will be handicapping that week, it is up to that member to PICK ANY 5 races from his or her assigned track, and submit WIN ONLY selections (plus two alternates for each race in case of late scratches) for those five races.

e) ALL PICKS MUST BE SUBMITTED BY 12:00 NOON EASTERN TIME, except for any tracks that run at NIGHT (if there are any). I know the noon cutoff tends to favor the east coast tracks, but we have to draw the line somewhere, especially if we have a lot of teams and players

f) Picks are to be posted on the board from which they originate, in a CLEARLY DEFINED CONTEST SECTION. I will be gathering all the selections and printing them out, so you must be sure I can find them easily.

g) The team with the BEST ROI at the end of the 4 week contest will be the winner, but I will also track win %

h) If on any particular week, you can't field a team of 8 players, then it is permissible for one or more people to double up on the number of tracks they have to handicap.

i) I will be posting the standings and each week's results on the HOME PAGE of PaceAdvantage.Com


That's it so far. I will probably be revising this in the days to come, as the ideas come pouring in.....


What do you think???


==PA

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

AFTER READING EVERYONE'S IDEAS AND SUGGESTIONS I TEND TO FAVOR SUFF'S IDEA. THE CONTEST SHOULDN'T BE WIN ONLY (BORING) WHY NOT INCLUDE ALL EXOTICS . REGARDING THE
LENGHT OF THE CONTEST 5 WEEKS OR SO SHOULD BE OK.
I AGREE THAT THE LAST WEEK BE DERBY WEEKEND, HOW FITTING.
I KNOW THAT BY INCLUDING ALL EXOTICS IT'S MORE WORK, BUT EACH TEAM CAN DO THERE OWN TOTALS . WITH BIG BROTHER
LOOKING OVER HIS/HERS SHOULDER, WHO WOULD DARE TO CHEAT ?

JIMMY /ILS

[Steve 'StatMan']

Hi Gang! We're getting the team assmbled at Barn-To-Wire. Wondered if Hawthorne is part of the contest, hope it's not too late. Our opening day is Saturday March 1st.

[Suff]

Steve......... Tracks running straight through to Derby Day are limited and few.. due to Winter meet endings and Spring meets startings.. This is the "Circuit " schedule for the contest.

PA should have all the details up later Tonight.


1)Aqueduct
2)Gulfstream (until 3/29)
Keeneland (4/5-4/26)
3)Santa Anita (except for 4/26)
Hollywood (4/26 only)
4)Laurel (until 3/29)
Pimlico (4/5-4/26)
5)Oaklawn (until 4/12)
Lone Star (4/19-4/26)

[Fwocco@BTW]

hawthorne/NJC meet runs through may8 ! add it plz

[Suff]

I take it your a SHYtown Player? Anyway... we were banging around MEETS and CIRCUITS for a Few days,,, we got the one's you saw,,, from a consenuus ...

I did miss the fact that Hawthorne runs continious through May. I don't play there and simply overlooked it. Not sure it would have been accepted anyway..

NY-CALIFORNIA-MARYLAND-FLORIDA are certainly more popular circuits. You mighta squeezed out Oaklawn or gotten the two weeks that LOne Star got.. But just the same. The Final List comes out tonight... and if Hawthorne aint on it.. You'll be out of luck.

SUFF

[Fwocco@BTW]

well suff considering u originally planned to have 8 tracks and that the Illinois derby is a major road apple to the roses makes sense to add it . ;)

[Suff]

Originally posted by Fwocco
well suff considering u originally planned to have 8 tracks and that the Illinois derby is a major road apple to the roses makes sense to add it . ;)

We never planned on 8 tracks? There was alot of Rumors Floating around on the other boards...Which I understand,, people wanted to know what was going on.. and 8 TEAMS were discussed... and 8 Team Members were discussed. But never 8 tracks..

Just the same... I did... FIRE off an E-mail to the Guy .. that I Know is Typing the RULES up as we speak... I alerted him to the fact that Hawthorne is a continuous meet.. he may not change it... I'm pretty sure he won't. But I Can't say for sure.

You know how this Racket works. You'll probably get assigned Maryland.. and KICKASS and win the thing. Then be thankfull you never got Hawthorne.

Also,,, Just so you know... once the rules and Parameters come out.. Thats it.... dem's da rules and dem's da tracks...

It will be fun and competitive either way.... Hang in there.. maybe we'll both be surprised and he'll toss Hawthorne in there. Doubt it though.

SUFF