Remember Commentator?

[cj]

What if a few horses went on a suicide mission to doom Big Brown? That is the strategy Dutrow himself employed against Commentator when he ran Saint Liam against him in the Woodward. He used not one, but two, rabbits and even that term isn't exactly accurate. Those horses did far more than just pressure the pace. They basically herded and harassed Commentator from the opening bell with no intent to do anything else.

It was an ugly day for racing. While deep down I hope others wouldn't resort to the slimy tactics that asshole Dutrow did that day, a smaller, shallow part of me would love to see him get his just rewards.

[cj]

For those that don't remember the race.

EAcSOa_s_ms

[DeanT]

That's brutal.

[mjw]

I think you are a small person for entering a rabbit to increase the change of your horse winning. Clearly, if those rabbits were not in the race Commentator would have wiped his ass with Saint Liam.

[sandpit]

I'm not really a fan of Saint Liam, but you had to admire the race he put up against Ghostzapper. Commentator is a cool horse, but he is faint hearted; if things aren't exactly his way, he folds like a cheap suit, a la Henny Hughes.

What I don't get, and maybe someone can enlighten me, is how that first quarter of 23 and change was too much? The second quarter was very quick, but the race really slowed down from there...they went about 26 seconds from the 3/4 to the mile...I've seen plenty of 1/4's like that at Yonkers.

Rabbits have been around for years...they did it to Dr. Fager; Cryptoclearance had Lustra, and interestingly, Shake the Bank is back in Saturday's Manhattan for Better Talk Now, even though his connections said last year that Shake the Bank's days as a sacrificial lamb were over.

[cj]

I don't think the rabbits changed the outcome of the race. The point was that the horse had beaten Saint Liam the previous race. It wouldn't have been a big deal if Dutrow sent out a rabbit to ensure a quicker pace and pressure.

He sent two however, and they did much more than your usual rabbit. Watch the video. One of the horses actually gets yanked back to run alongside Commentator and the jockey was yelling and screaming and whooping it up trying to distract the horse. This was totally classless and uncalled for in my opinion, and that of many others.

The sad part is the "rabbits" weren't even owned by the owner of Saint Liam. One can only imagine the type of nefarious deals a guy like Dutrow was cutting in the back room to convince an owner to sacrifice his horses for the benefit of another.

The whole thing stunk, and it is a sad day when this guy is front and center for the sport of horse racing.

[Tom]

How many rabbits were thrown against Dr. Fager?
Great horses beat other horses and rabbits.

[slewis]

How many rabbits were thrown against Dr. Fager?
Great horses beat other horses and rabbits.

Good point Tom:ThmbUp:

Affirmed would have faired no better against the GREAT Seattle Slew despite Laz Barrerra entering Life's Hope.

[magwell]

I think you are a small person for entering a rabbit to increase the change of your horse winning. Clearly, if those rabbits were not in the race Commentator would have wiped his ass with Saint Liam. Hard to understand that this game is so tough, when your playing against players that see races like this quote......on this day Saint Liam wasnt going to get beat with or without those rabbits..... PLEASE....

[slewis]

I don't think the rabbits changed the outcome of the race. The point was that the horse had beaten Saint Liam the previous race. It wouldn't have been a big deal if Dutrow sent out a rabbit to ensure a quicker pace and pressure.




CJ,

If my memory serves correctly, the day Commentator beat Liam at the SPA there was a BIG (in my opinion) speed track bias.

I remember talking to Dutrow about it the next day.
You might want to check the Spa charts that day. Nevertheless, I think in horse racing it's a bush move regardless of whether it works (in this case it did NOT matter) or not.:ThmbUp:

[Stevie Belmont]

What was ugly about it? Slimy, give me a break.

If BB settles and relaxes it does not matter who guns.

Commentator is a one trick pony.


What if a few horses went on a suicide mission to doom Big Brown? That is the strategy Dutrow himself employed against Commentator when he ran Saint Liam against him in the Woodward. He used not one, but two, rabbits and even that term isn't exactly accurate. Those horses did far more than just pressure the pace. They basically herded and harassed Commentator from the opening bell with no intent to do anything else.

It was an ugly day for racing. While deep down I hope others wouldn't resort to the slimy tactics that asshole Dutrow did that day, a smaller, shallow part of me would love to see him get his just rewards.

[cj]

How many rabbits were thrown against Dr. Fager?
Great horses beat other horses and rabbits.

I guess my English has slipped. It has nothing to do with the usual rabbit tactics. This was far and above anything Dr. Fager ever faced. It has nothing to do with Commentator being a great horse.

For the last time, rabbits are entered to ensure a fast pace. They usually don't try to physically intimidate another horse by putting him in tight and dragging back to run alongside so the jockey can scream and holler and try to spook the horse. How is yanking back on a rabbit ensuring a fast pace?

This is the only time you will see the comment "Under attack, tired". Anyone who thinks this was even remotely sporting is looking at it with Dutrow colored glasses. I haven't seen a slimier tactic used in my 25 years of watching races.

Slewis, your point means nothing in this context. How is it relevant? If Dutrow was convinced of this why the attack? As I said, on that day, it probably didn't matter a bit.

[Stevie Belmont]

Who won the race?



I guess my English has slipped. It has nothing to do with the usual rabbit tactics. This was far and above anything Dr. Fager ever faced. It has nothing to do with Commentator being a great horse.

For the last time, rabbits are entered to ensure a fast pace. They usually don't try to physically intimidate another horse by putting him in tight and dragging back to run alongside so the jockey can scream and holler and try to spook the horse. How is yanking back on a rabbit ensuring a fast pace?

This is the only time you will see the comment "Under attack, tired". Anyway who thinks this was even remotely sporting is looking at it with Dutrow colored glasses. I haven't seen a slimier tactic used in my 25 years of watching races.

Slewis, your point means nothing in this context. How is it relevant? If Dutrow was convinced of this why the attack? As I said, on that day, it probably didn't matter a bit.

[ryesteve]

Who won the race?At what point do you draw the line where the end no longer justifies the means?

[Stevie Belmont]

What line? Entering a horse in a race?

At what point do you draw the line where the end no longer justifies the means?

[ryesteve]

What line? Entering a horse in a race?I could've sworn this was a discussion on race-riding tactics...

[Stevie Belmont]

No way.

St Liam won in a hand ride, Commentator got away with a softer scenario in the Whitney. 9 times out of 10 St Liam beats that horse at 1 1/8. Rabbit or no rabbit.




I think you are a small person for entering a rabbit to increase the change of your horse winning. Clearly, if those rabbits were not in the race Commentator would have wiped his ass with Saint Liam.

[Tom]

I guess my English has slipped.



Well, you have been out of the country for a while...:rolleyes:;)
No, actually, I read it wrong.....pre-first coffee. My bad. I agree.

[cj]

What line? Entering a horse in a race?

Yes, horses whose only intention is to interfere with another horse. As said several times already, those two did far more than try to influence the pace. How about if the hopeless 2 makes an intentional left and puts Big Brown into the rail? Is that OK? That isn't far from the tactics your boy employed.

[classhandicapper]

CJ,

If my memory serves correctly, the day Commentator beat Liam at the SPA there was a BIG (in my opinion) speed track bias.

I remember talking to Dutrow about it the next day.
You might want to check the Spa charts that day. Nevertheless, I think in horse racing it's a bush move regardless of whether it works (in this case it did NOT matter) or not.:ThmbUp:

It was a monster bias. St Liam was miles the best horse.

On the original issue.....

One thing that will make it more difficult to gang up on Big Brown is that he's rateable, has push button speed, and is easier to handle. Those are the kinds of intangibles that help overcome bad trips and tough spots etc....

[Stevie Belmont]

Well that a completely different issue if contact is made. Thats just not in the rules. There are 9 others in there one or some try to ruin him, so be it. No garuntee it works anyway. If the horse settles, he would just sit off them.

Rabbits are used all the time, and sometimes they don't work.

[cj]

It was a monster bias. St Liam was miles the best horse.

On the original issue.....

One thing that will make it more difficult to gang up on Big Brown is that he's easier to handle and rateable. Those are the kinds of intangibles that help overcome bad trips etc....

In the said case, they attempted to rate Commentator, and one of the sorry jockeys Dutrow employed that day (no decent jockey would ride) dragged the "rabbit" back to physically engage the horse. For about the 50th time in this thread, it was far from the usual rabbit strategy some seem to be trying to equate this race to.

[Stevie Belmont]

I don't remember the jock, I'm gonna guess Rudy Rodriguez.

[cj]

He was one. I don't remember the other one, but I know he was and still is a nobody.

[cj]

It was Rojas (Raul I believe).

For those that don't remember, here is the chart comments given shortly after the running of the race by the chart caller:

COMMENTATOR broke
well and argued the pace while under attack from both sides, disposed of his assailants after three quarters but was in no shape
to handle the winner and gave way in the final furlong.

[classhandicapper]

In the said case, they attempted to rate Commentator, and one of the sorry jockeys Dutrow employed that day (no decent jockey would ride) dragged the "rabbit" back to physically engage the horse. For about the 50th time in this thread, it was far from the usual rabbit strategy some seem to be trying to equate this race to.

CJ, I understand your point entirely and agree.

I was suggesting that Commentator and Big Brown are drastically different horses. So it wouldn't work against him.

Dutrow's strategy against Commentator was easy to implement. The horse wants to be on the lead. Rating almost certainly wouldn't have worked. Just in case, the back up plan of chirping and pulling back to run with him screwed him up. That wouldn't work on Big Brown. He wouldn't start pulling and getting more rank, he wouldn't be uncomfortable inside or between horses etc... He'd be easy to take out of there and/or would spurt away depending on how far into the race the horses were.

Unless they purposely start bumping into him, I don't think there's a darn thing they can do to beat him with that kind of stratgey unless most of the field conspires to be in on it. They actually tried to pin him down on the rail in the Preakness, but he was so easy to handle it didn't work. Kent simply pulled back briefly and went outside. That ended it. A less versatile horse with fewer favorable qualities might have been screwed (at least for awhile).

What Dutrow did went well beyond using a rabbit, but the horse was way more vulnerable because he is way more limited in terms of the less tangible aspects of ability.

[PaceAdvantage]

I remember the race well and recall posting here that it was an outrage that all those horses weren't coupled, given the fact that one of them was ridden with absolutely no intent or interest in winning the race.

Whatever happened to protecting the public in a case like this? If that's the way it's going to be, do away with all entries forever, and do away with stewards as well. Turn it into one big roller derby.....that's what it was that day, essentially....

[slewis]

I guess my English has slipped. It has nothing to do with the usual rabbit tactics. This was far and above anything Dr. Fager ever faced. It has nothing to do with Commentator being a great horse.

For the last time, rabbits are entered to ensure a fast pace. They usually don't try to physically intimidate another horse by putting him in tight and dragging back to run alongside so the jockey can scream and holler and try to spook the horse. How is yanking back on a rabbit ensuring a fast pace?

This is the only time you will see the comment "Under attack, tired". Anyone who thinks this was even remotely sporting is looking at it with Dutrow colored glasses. I haven't seen a slimier tactic used in my 25 years of watching races.

Slewis, your point means nothing in this context. How is it relevant? If Dutrow was convinced of this why the attack? As I said, on that day, it probably didn't matter a bit.

Sorry CJ, I'm not getting what you say about... what point I made out of context?
If you mean my discussion with Dutrow .. it was about the St. Liam-Commentator.. speed bias track at the SPA.. not the gang up job at Belmont.
I never suggested Dutrow blamed the defeat on the track bias (that was MY opinion) or even if he agreed with me.
I never discussed the race at Belmont with him or the tactics used. I would be very uncomfortable doing so because I like Rick and I think it was a bull shit move... and believe me.. he probably knows it too.

[DrugS]

it was about the St. Liam-Commentator.. speed bias track at the SPA.. not the gang up job at Belmont.

I wouldn't exactly say it was a real strong speed bias that day.

I realize three races were won wire-to-wire that day - one of them by Frankel's 2/1 shot Ice Wynnd Fire in a race where the favored Noble Causeway was eased early on after being scratched by Bailey in the pre-race earlier on in the meet.

In The Gold had a horror trip early on in the Test, and was 10 lengths behind the next to last horse early on - and closed to finish 3rd behind runaway winner Leave Me Alone. When she ran LMA down late in the Gazelle next out a lot of people said it strongly confirmed the bias - IMO, bias or not, the circumstances and trip were both much more favorable to In The Gold in the Gazelle than the Test ... and she turned into a dog biscuit after the Gazelle.

[KingChas]

It was an ugly day for racing. While deep down I hope others wouldn't resort to the slimy tactics that asshole Dutrow did that day, a smaller, shallow part of me would love to see him get his just rewards.

Time will take care of his rewards.

I just can't transfer that thought towards Big Brown.

I was never a big D Wayne Lukas training tactics fan,but.... ;)

Some of his horses sure "bought me pretty fine wine". :D