Breeding Big Brown and Casino Drive

[BeatTheChalk]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/casino+drive

http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

Do what you will ..with this. I know I know ..lots of horses out of this
Sire Line. But look CLOSELY at Big Brown. Top and Bottom. Look at
Northern Dancer ! Perfect matches TOP AND BOTTOM. :ThmbUp:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing ... But It's fun to look at
all of the pretty colors. :jump: :kiss:

[PaceAdvantage]

Based on that info, it sure seems as if BB is MUCH MORE suited to go a mile and a half than Casino Drive....but then again, RTR and Jazil sort of give Casino Drive some extra umph not readily seen in the relatively high Dosage and CD.....

[46zilzal]

Inbreeding close up to Northern Dancer is troubling.

[slewis]

Inbreeding close up to Northern Dancer is troubling.

Zil,

What do you mean by "troubling"??

Nureyev in THAT spot, I was taught, is VERY POWERFUL....My mentor has bred Kitten's Joy and purchased numerous successful broodmares including Nightstorm, the dam of Nobiz like shobiz.
To further compliment a pedigree like that, Northern Dancer or Mr. Prospector on the top side has yielded successful results.
Why is this troubling?

[slewis]

Based on that info, it sure seems as if BB is MUCH MORE suited to go a mile and a half than Casino Drive....but then again, RTR and Jazil sort of give Casino Drive some extra umph not readily seen in the relatively high Dosage and CD.....

Good catch PA...

I might be wrong but.......
AP Indy was recently changed by Rasmussen (I think) to I/C ..(Intermediate/Classic) from just Classic. (C)

This would create more presence in the intermediate catagory and effect his dosage and CI to reflect more speed/less distance.
It's just on paper though... I think Casino's bottom has serious stamina influence and wont be a prob in reality.

[46zilzal]

Why is this troubling?
Simple: inborn errors have a greater chance of expression when individuals that closely related mate: Happens in humans all the time.

[Pace Cap'n]

On the off-chance that Casino Drive should win the Belmont, what might that do for the value of his dam, Better Than Honour? What would be the max value for such a proven mare?

[slewis]

Simple: inborn errors have a greater chance of expression when individuals that closely related mate: Happens in humans all the time.

Ok.. and by the way..... Simple: positive traits are exponentially achieved
when inbreeding.... especially Northern Dancer/ Northern Dancer ..Northen Dancer/Mr prospector.

We are breeding THOROUGHBREDS.

[Kelso]

Ok.. and by the way..... Simple: positive traits are exponentially achieved
when inbreeding.... especially Northern Dancer/ Northern Dancer ..Northen Dancer/Mr prospector.

We are breeding THOROUGHBREDS.But positive traits don't cause catestrophic breakdowns ... congenital infirmities do. I think that should be the controlling consideration in the matter of inbreeding ... whether thoroughbreds, rottweilers or bunny rabbits.

[Rackon]

What I really like is BB's sire's and dam's tail femle lines to Damascus and Round Table - now there's some line breeding I can get enthusiastic about.

[Moyers Pond]

Based on that info, it sure seems as if BB is MUCH MORE suited to go a mile and a half than Casino Drive....but then again, RTR and Jazil sort of give Casino Drive some extra umph not readily seen in the relatively high Dosage and CD.....

You are kidding right. I will post this in a separate thread.

Casino Drive’s first four generations alone are responsible for 12 Belmont Stakes winners.

[Moyers Pond]

On the off-chance that Casino Drive should win the Belmont, what might that do for the value of his dam, Better Than Honour? What would be the max value for such a proven mare?

Her value was estimated at around $12M right now. It probably wouldn't go north of that even with a win.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Sorry, I'm still trying to figure what qualification method allows 2-career-race CD to get into the Belmont ahead of other horses.

[russowen77]

DI wise Casino Drive was bred for more speed that either Jazil of Rags to Riches.

They both had DIs if 3.00 while CD's is 3.67.

It is a little strange to me that Seeking the Gold and A P Indy ended up with the same DI when bred to BTH.

[PaceAdvantage]

You are kidding right.You obviously missed my phrase BASED ON THIS INFO...meaning....Dosage Index and Center of Distribution. Both numbers FAVOR Big Brown over Casino Drive in terms of "getting the distance."

[Jeremy Jet]

BASED ON THIS INFO...meaning....Dosage Index and Center of Distribution. Both numbers FAVOR Big Brown over Casino Drive in terms of "getting the distance."

Which is a perfect example of how deeply flawed the Dosage "system" is. It's patently absurd to concluded that Big Brown's pedigree is better than Casino Drive's in terms of staying 12 furlongs, which begs the question: Why does anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to Dosage?

[russowen77]

Which is a perfect example of how deeply flawed the Dosage "system" is. It's patently absurd to concluded that Big Brown's pedigree is better than Casino Drive's in terms of staying 12 furlongs, which begs the question: Why does anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to Dosage?
I do for sure. Combining it with factors like DP, etc give one a pretty good picture of what the breeders were trying to do imo.

[PaceAdvantage]

Which is a perfect example of how deeply flawed the Dosage "system" is. It's patently absurd to concluded that Big Brown's pedigree is better than Casino Drive's in terms of staying 12 furlongs, which begs the question: Why does anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to Dosage?All the pedigree experts seem to agree that BB has a lot more stamina in his pedigree than people might realize if they simply focus on the fact that his sire was Boundary (who never went a distance because of his offset knees).

Click on Pedigree Analysis
http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/bio_BigBrown.asp

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

About two hours of research reveals these Belmont winners facts:

Proof positive that Casino Drive was born to win the Belmont Stakes...

This is a brief list of past Belmont winners with a brief history of their most notable blood relevance..

Rags To Riches - Great granddaughter to Secretariat. Granddaughter of Seattle Slew
Jazil - Great great grandson to War Admiral
Afleet Alex - Great grandson to Northern Dancer
Point Given - Great grandson to Northern Dancer
Commendable - Great grandson to Secretariat
Lemon Drop - Great grandson to Northern Dancer
Thunder Gulch - Great great grandson to Northern Dancer
Colonial Affair - Great great grandson to Northern dancer
AP Indy - Grandson to Secretariat. Son of Seattle Slew
Hansel - Great grandson to Northern Dancer
Risen Star - Son of Secretariat
Bet Twice - Great grandson to Northern Dancer
Danzig Connection - Grandson of Northern Dancer
Affirmed - Great grandson to War Admiral
Seattle Slew - Great great great grandson to War Admiral

Now for Big Brown and Casino Drive:

*Big Brown - Great Grandson to Northern Dancer

*Casino Drive - Great grandson to Seattle Slew - Great great grandson to Secretariat - Great great grandson to Northern Dancer - Great grandson to Mr. Prospector. Casino Drive is even the 8th generation paternal blood of Man O War (War Admiral's daddy), and the 8th generation maternal blood of Nasrullah. He is the prodigy combination of four "non-related" king's bloodlines. (Rare, even in thoroughbreds).

WOW!

Casino Drive is the pinnacle of the thoroughbred bloodline. And with one look at him, this is painfully obvious, even to the untrained eye.

There has never been a horse that was bred & born to claim the Crown Jewel, like Casino Drive.

Dr. SwineSmeller
_________________
A Pain in the Pork Chop... Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

Rags To Riches - Great grandson to Secretariat. Grandson of Seattle Slew

Don't tell Rags to Riches SHE is a grandson!!

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

http://horseracing.about.com/od/latestnews/ss/aa051008a_3.htm


Casino Drive is a dancing bad boy. Awesome shot here.

Notice the fans as they gaze upon the all grown up million dollar yearling..

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

http://horseracing.about.com/od/latestnews/ss/aa051008a_3.htm


Casino Drive is a dancing bad boy. Awesome shot here.


Cindy takes good pictures. She won the Eclipse and last year her shot (from the Breeder's Cup at Churchill) was a finalist here at the Sovereign Awards.

http://www.horse-races.net/library/eclipsephoto2004.htm

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Ok, I'll change her to Granddaughter. That's an easy fact to forget when it only happens about every hundred years or so.

Thanks for correcting my oversight Zilzal. Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Cindy takes good pictures. She won the Eclipse and last year her shot (from the Breeder's Cup at Churchill) was a finalist here at the Sovereign Awards.

http://www.horse-races.net/library/eclipsephoto2004.htm

I was unaware of the photographer's accomplishments before you brought it to light Zilzal. And that was the first time I've viewed her "pogohorse" shot! Wow! Awesome!! I'll definitely look for her shots from now on. I say her shot of Casino Drive goes top shelf too.

Cindy has the knack for sure! SS

[WinterTriangle]

Which is a perfect example of how deeply flawed the Dosage "system" is. Why does anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to Dosage?

If you have read, in depth, Steve Roman's site and papers, and sat down and figured out the DP on a horse, not just looked at the DI and CD that somebody gave you, it's quite enlightening. It takes the better part of a day to delve into the figures on one horse.

Here's a good interview with him in bloodhorse, in which he answers many questions:

http://www.tbhpublications.com/talkinhorses/SR022808.asp

He specifically addresses critics who focus only on the figures, which is why I say it's enlightening to sit down and make your studies.

He also speaks about performance enhancing drugs throwing off some of the calculations. (he calls them performance-enabling drugs).

It's not a direct predictor, but certainly a very valuable handicapping tool.

[Jeremy Jet]

If you have read, in depth, Steve Roman's site and papers, and sat down and figured out the DP on a horse, not just looked at the DI and CD that somebody gave you, it's quite enlightening. It takes the better part of a day to delve into the figures on one horse.

Here's a good interview with him in bloodhorse, in which he answers many questions:

http://www.tbhpublications.com/talkinhorses/SR022808.asp

He specifically addresses critics who focus only on the figures, which is why I say it's enlightening to sit down and make your studies.

He also speaks about performance enhancing drugs throwing off some of the calculations. (he calls them performance-enabling drugs).

It's not a direct predictor, but certainly a very valuable handicapping tool.

I've directly challenged Dr. Roman more than a few times, and he is unable to defend the obvious criticism of his pet system because there is no serious defense. The problem with the system is that it almost always fails to take into account the most iomportant influences in the pedigree. That is the case with both BB and CD. In BB's case, Boundary, a sire of sprinters and (principally) milers, is completely ignored. In the case of CD, Minshaft, a young sire which is very likely to prove a stamina influence (by American standards), Deputy Minister, and Vice Regent are all completely ignored.

Now, if you want to argue that using Dosage is better than nothing for those who don't know pedigrees, I'd say that you are only correct part of the time. There are many cases in which Dosage implications are terribly misleading, and therefore worse than no information at all.

[russowen77]

Lets compare some horses.

Big Brown-DI 1.67--DP 4-7-23-0-0. Inbred 4x5 Round Table, 3x4 Damascus, 2d sire is Lear Fan. Boundary was bred for more distance but kept short because of his knees like PA said.

Casino Drive DI of 3.67 DP of 10-6-12-0-0. 2d sire is Blushing groom. 1/2 to two Belmont winners. Sire is unproven to this point but is throwing some nice stock so far. No inbreeding.

Rags to Riches- DI 3.00 DP 8-11-19-0-0 Inbred 4x5 Bold Ruler (unbalanced) and 5x5 to Nashrulla (balanced)

Jazil DI 3.00 DP 11-3-14-0-0 Inbred 5x5 Nashrulla, 5x5 Traffic Court.

Round Table and Damascus are stamina influence. Nashrulla is Speed. I will admit I am unfamilair with Traffic Court. Lear Fan is stamina while Bold Ruler is a balanced sire.

Looking at the pedigrees from as many angles as possible it sure seems to me that Big Brown was bred to go long. His best sires are more stamina influenced while Casino Drive has a lot of speed in his background.

No system is perfect and horses do out run their breeding but most do not.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Sorry, I'm still trying to figure what qualification method allows 2-career-race CD to get into the Belmont ahead of other horses.
"Guadalcanal, who has yet to break his maiden in five career starts, was a surprise entry in the June 7 Belmont Stakes (gr. I) when entries were taken Wednesday.

Owned and trained by Fred Seitz, the son of Graeme Hall—Bessette (by Quest for Fame), has two seconds and a third, with earnings of $16,100.

Seitz said he realizes the colt will be a longshot in the classic, in which Big Brown is attempting to sweep the coveted Triple Crown, but that he believes Guadalcanal will love the 1 ½ mile distance.

“He was bred for a route""
I guess breeding IS the qualification for some!!LOL!! What a joke the TC has become!!

[russowen77]

Wow, Gaudalcanal's DP is 2-1-3-0-0. Whatever he was bred is lost on me.

[slewis]

All the pedigree experts seem to agree that BB has a lot more stamina in his pedigree than people might realize if they simply focus on the fact that his sire was Boundary (who never went a distance because of his offset knees).

Click on Pedigree Analysis
http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/bio_BigBrown.asp


True,

I'm curious how many "experts" stated this BEFORE the derby??
I know I was listenening to Lauren Stich of the DRF (I may have mispelled her name) on sirius radio the week prior to the derby and she was very doubtful of BB's staying power. I told friends I didn't think there was a problem (I'm also far from an expert) but I place much more influence on the female family when thinking distance or not. Look at the presence of Lear Fan.. Roberto in the foundation, they made it simple for me.
Of course we know the actual runner on the track can and does perform differently then his/her ancestry would suggest.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

You are kidding right. I will post this in a separate thread.

Casino Drive’s first four generations alone are responsible for 12 Belmont Stakes winners.

I'll take genetics over a sheet of paper any day. Geneology never wavers. It is set. Casino is literally the son of the kings in the genetics department.

Only a silly denier would question Casino's innate genetic ability to blaze at a mile and a half...

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

I'll take genetics over a sheet of paper any day. Geneology never wavers. It is set. Casino is literally the son of the kings in the genetics department.

Only a silly denier would question Casino's innate genetic ability to blaze at a mile and a half...

Recombinants, partial penetrance of gene expression, controller genes turned on or off changing the epigenetic expression of similar though variably expressed proteins (epigenetics),,,it goes on and on. IF the genome were expressed as simply as Mendel's sweet peas, every genetic outcome of full siblings would be the same and The Bride was not Secretariat, Colonel Collins was NOT Lit De Justice, Hopefully was not Alydar, Mr. Prosperous was NOT Conquistador Cielo, and Baleta was not Dancing Brave....

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Barring abnormal mutations in DNA, for example as with trisomy 21 aka Down Syndrome in humans, the phenotype is always an expression of the genotype.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

[QUOTE=russowen77]Lets compare some horses....

Casino Drive DI of 3.67 DP of 10-6-12-0-0. 2d sire is Blushing groom. 1/2 to two Belmont winners. Sire is unproven to this point but is throwing some nice stock so far. No inbreeding.

One fact should jump off this quote about Casino Drive...

That would be the "NO INBREEDING" part. Which is exactly why he was a million dollar Keenland yearling purchase.

Common knowledge> The more diverse the gene pool, the more evolved the phenotype. Scientifically proven, a long time ago. Phenotype Casino Drive is a genetic dream.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

Barring abnormal mutations in DNA, for example as with trisomy 21 aka Down Syndrome in humans, the phenotype is always an expression of the genotype.

Dr. SwineSmeller

You have a decided LOT to learn in the field of genetics my friend: Linked genes, incomplete penetrance, operator genes being turned on or turned of by heterozygous controller genes at separate gene loci....on and on.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Recombinants, partial penetrance of gene expression, controller genes turned on or off changing the epigenetic expression of similar though variably expressed proteins (epigenetics),,,it goes on and on. IF the genome were expressed as simply as Mendel's sweet peas, every genetic outcome of full siblings would be the same and The Bride was not Secretariat, Colonel Collins was NOT Lit De Justice, Hopefully was not Alydar, Mr. Prosperous was NOT Conquistador Cielo, and Baleta was not Dancing Brave....

Howdy again ZilZal. I've had more than a few courses in genetics.

Allow me analyze your comment...

Recombinant = joining again. As in the case with Northern Dancer's genealogy being recombinated from the maternal and paternal side of Big Brown's gene pool.

Controller genes = a slang term. Not medically defined. Scientifically known as "dominant" or "recessive" genes.

Proteins = chains of complex nitrogenous compounds that are the building blocks and sustainers of life itself. A protein consist of 50 to thousands of amino acids arranged in a very specific sequence.

Epigenesis = in embryology, the development of specific cells and tissues from undifferentiated cells of the early embryo. These cells and tissues are expressed 99.999% indentical within any given breed of animal. The .0001% difference is evolution in progress.

Genome = the entire genetic information present in a cell, containing a complete set of chromosomes.

Adenosine, cystine, guanosine, and thymine = the nucleotides that join to make up a helix of DNA, which determines gene structure.

I can easily tell you the exact percentage chances of "controller genes" being expressed in offspring. It's a simple table.

And as I said before, the more diverse the gene pool, the more evolved is the phenotype. It's simple evolution. Really. We don't witness a lot of difference in each next generation's phenotypes because the evolutionary process works so slowly, given the scant .0001% difference in each generations DNA.

Class is open ZilZal. What else do I need to know?

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

You have a decided LOT to learn in the field of genetics my friend: Linked genes, incomplete penetrance, operator genes being turned on or turned of by heterozygous controller genes at separate gene loci....on and on.

Allow me to complete good sir Zilzal...

I always liked that heterozygous word. Heterozygous would define Casino Drive's alleles. (No inbreeding).

On the other hand, Big brown's alleles would be at least partly homozygous at a given locus, due to selective inbreeding.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[slewis]

I've directly challenged Dr. Roman more than a few times, and he is unable to defend the obvious criticism of his pet system because there is no serious defense. The problem with the system is that it almost always fails to take into account the most iomportant influences in the pedigree. That is the case with both BB and CD. In BB's case, Boundary, a sire of sprinters and (principally) milers, is completely ignored. In the case of CD, Minshaft, a young sire which is very likely to prove a stamina influence (by American standards), Deputy Minister, and Vice Regent are all completely ignored.

Now, if you want to argue that using Dosage is better than nothing for those who don't know pedigrees, I'd say that you are only correct part of the time. There are many cases in which Dosage implications are terribly misleading, and therefore worse than no information at all.

Very Good point but... I dont think it's a "problem" with the system.
The media and amateur breeders look at a dosage profile as "gospel" and that's ludicrious. Of course Boundary and Mineshaft are not considered in the DP .... They are not chefs...as you know.
You've managed to cross over the "amateur analysis" and view pedigree from a more objective standpoint.
But, be careful...... Let's take AP Indy. Before he was a chef I would take his pedigree into account when looking at a thoroughbred he sired or was the Broodmare sire. I would have put him into the Classic/Stout category and in my mind, make adjustments, (I believe that's where he was originally placed as well)
Well, as we know, history has statistically shown that his runners are more successful in shorter races, thus he was revised to intermediate/classic, an absolute shocker to me!
Regardless, as a breeder or buyer, you will incur risk by assigning a sire (like Mineshaft) what YOU think he might become. But you never know until the future unfolds.
Great post.:ThmbUp:

[Niko]

You have a decided LOT to learn in the field of genetics my friend: Linked genes, incomplete penetrance, operator genes being turned on or turned of by heterozygous controller genes at separate gene loci....on and on.


Howdy again ZilZal. I've had more than a few courses in genetics.

Allow me analyze your comment...


You'll have to excuse 46zilzal, he's the Stephen Hawkins of horse racing......minus the explanations and theories. Probably a pretty smart person though.

[46zilzal]

Allow me to complete good sir Zilzal...

I always liked that heterozygous word. Heterozygous would define Casino Drive's alleles. (No inbreeding).

On the other hand, Big brown's alleles would be at least partly homozygous at a given locus, due to selective inbreeding.

Dr. SwineSmeller

That explains nothing and only shows that you have searched the internet, or a genetics book.

Genetics has so many variables as to be guesswork at times. Breed the best to the best, (and through the randomness of cross over during meiosis) HOPE for the best.

Controller genes have been defined for a very long time since the French came up with the operon theory.
http://library.thinkquest.org/28751/review/genetics/7.html

Controller genes are well established as well.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14149956
ADDING to the randomness.

ALL of these animals are inbred: that's what defines the breed.

[russowen77]

[QUOTE=russowen77]Lets compare some horses....

Casino Drive DI of 3.67 DP of 10-6-12-0-0. 2d sire is Blushing groom. 1/2 to two Belmont winners. Sire is unproven to this point but is throwing some nice stock so far. No inbreeding.

One fact should jump off this quote about Casino Drive...

That would be the "NO INBREEDING" part. Which is exactly why he was a million dollar Keenland yearling purchase.

Common knowledge> The more diverse the gene pool, the more evolved the phenotype. Scientifically proven, a long time ago. Phenotype Casino Drive is a genetic dream.

Dr. SwineSmeller
Since yor are talking phenotypes would you please share your biometric data with us. I would love to see it.

So you are an out cross only type I take it.

The throughbred gene pool needs some fresh blood imo. They are all basically from just one animal now. 2 of the 4 are gone and the other is holding on by a thread.

[46zilzal]

Class is open ZilZal. What else do I need to know?

Dr. SwineSmeller
A heck of a lot more than you have shown.

In the human genome there are multiple chances of crossover thereby CHANGING the offspring just like in Equs.

DNA length is ordinarily quantitated in kilobase (kb) units of 1000 bp or megabase (Mb) units of 1 million bp. Linkage
studies indicate that the human genome is composed of approximately 3000 centimorgans (cM) in recombination
distance. A centimorgan (1/100 of a Morgan) is a measure of genetic distance that reflects the probability of a
crossover between two loci during meiosis. One centimorgan approximates a 1 percent chance of a crossover during meiosis. Thus, an average chromosome contains 2000 to 5000 genes within 130 million bp of DNA and is equivalent to about 130 cM of genetic material. A typical microband on a chromosome (stained at the 800 band level of resolution) should contain 3 to 5 million bp and 60 to 120 genes. This formulation oversimplifies many issues. Estimates of the total number of genes are imprecise, and although the average recombination distance is approximately 1 cM per million bp of DNA, there is wide variation in this rate over shorter distances and differences in recombination distance with sex.

Copyright© 2000 McGraw-Hill. All rights reserved.

[46zilzal]

Also:Cis-acting regulatory elements (i.e., on the contiguous DNA strand) may be a considerable distance from the coding region, e.g., 50 kb 5¢ and 20 kb 3¢ to the b-globin gene, thus extending the functional domains of genes and complicating the definition of boundaries

Much akin to throwing a bunch of marbles in a container and guessing which will come out in the new individual. Explains how siblings can be so very different.

"The independent assortment of chromosomes into gametes during meiosis produces an enormous diversity among the possible genotypes of the progeny. For each 23 pairs of chromosomes, there are 223 different combinations of chromosomes that could occur in a gamete, and the likelihood that one set of parents will produce two offspring with the identical complement of chromosomes is one in 223 or one in 8.4 million (excepting monozygotic twins). Adding even further to the enormous genetic diversity in humans is the phenomenon of genetic recombination."

From Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, 2000

[Semipro]

True,

I'm curious how many "experts" stated this BEFORE the derby??
I know I was listenening to Lauren Stich of the DRF (I may have mispelled her name) on sirius radio the week prior to the derby and she was very doubtful of BB's staying power. I told friends I didn't think there was a problem (I'm also far from an expert) but I place much more influence on the female family when thinking distance or not. Look at the presence of Lear Fan.. Roberto in the foundation, they made it simple for me.
Of course we know the actual runner on the track can and does perform differently then his/her ancestry would suggest.I'm no expert but someone on this board wanted to know why I thought BB could get the Derby distance my reply was eyeballs and Roberto. Go BB :jump: :jump:

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

T
ALL of these animals are inbred: that's what defines the breed.

Yeah yeah yeah,.. And all humans can be traced back to Lucy several million years ago. And all dogs can be traced back to wolves. There is a starting place for all breeds of animal. All are inbred to a degree. You know exactly what I mean in the case of Casino's diverse gene pool. Don't play dumb Zilzal.

I have no doubt you are sufficiently educated in the field of genetics. A 5 year BSN, RN degree taught me more than just a little about genetics too though.

And the term "controller" genes is still, and will be, considered slang in Med field. No matter what Frenchie says. It's termed "controller" simply because that is the "expressed gene trait". If the gene trait was present prior to conception but missed being expressed, there is no 'controller' to it. Properly, there is only recessive and dominant.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

I will back up the findings in Harrison's over any of your nurse's larnnin.'

and I have you beat by 8 years, along with 30 years in practice

[chickenhead]

46 is just jealous he didn't come up with Dr. SwineSmeller as a name. I know I am.

[46zilzal]

Properly, there is only recessive and dominant.

Dr. SwineSmeller
Did you miss that lecture on understanding parital penetrance?

[46zilzal]

46 is just jealous he didn't come up with Dr. SwineSmeller as a name. I know I am.
Many nurses try to pass themselves off as doctors, You see it on the wards all the time.

[46zilzal]

Controller genes are so fanciful that all of these authors must be just fooling us is that it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6109943
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1432-0436.1987.tb01545.x
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v194/n4828/abs/194607b0.html
http://www.springerlink.com/content/74132u58nhv77107/
http://www.breastcancercampaign.org/whatwedo/grant/6/
http://www.ist-world.org/ResultPublicationDetails.aspx?ResultPublicationId= 58610d055141401fb8e9b79e050f0258
http://www.ndsu.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/geneexpress/eukaryex1.htm

[46zilzal]

Since all cells derived from one fertilized ovum share identical genetic material, control systems must exist which govern activation and inhibition of gene action to allow complex cell functions.

Many have been identified and are being investigated for therapeutic use.

[russowen77]

Is the throughbred genome mapped?

Y'all have gotten way too deep to be of any use in a breeding discussion imo.

[46zilzal]

Is the throughbred genome mapped?

.
Well on the way.
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/

stand corrected, it is complete.http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr07/070401n.asp

[PaceAdvantage]

I will back up the findings in Harrison's over any of your nurse's larnnin.'

and I have you beat by 8 years, along with 30 years in practice46 gets so defensive when anyone dare challenge his "smarts"

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Also:Cis-acting regulatory elements (i.e., on the contiguous DNA strand) may be a considerable distance from the coding region, e.g., 50 kb 5¢ and 20 kb 3¢ to the b-globin gene, thus extending the functional domains of genes and complicating the definition of boundaries

Much akin to throwing a bunch of marbles in a container and guessing which will come out in the new individual. Explains how siblings can be so very different.

"The independent assortment of chromosomes into gametes during meiosis produces an enormous diversity among the possible genotypes of the progeny. For each 23 pairs of chromosomes, there are 223 different combinations of chromosomes that could occur in a gamete, and the likelihood that one set of parents will produce two offspring with the identical complement of chromosomes is one in 223 or one in 8.4 million (excepting monozygotic twins). Adding even further to the enormous genetic diversity in humans is the phenomenon of genetic recombination."

From Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, 2000

All these studies that you present and fine and well and I fully accept all of these facts as laws of nature. All proven, I believe it. And I do enjoy the refresher course.

But now, allow me to break all this greek and latin root into simple layman's terminology that even a monkey could understand in the end...

Frenchie's term of "controller" gene is actually akin to the proper term of "regulator" gene, which = a gene that has some control over another [separate] gene. which = a "dominant or recessive or mutant" gene expression passed from the two genotypes to the phentype.

Frenchie's "operator" gene, which = one of certain genes believed (unexplained, not proven) to have a roll in controlling (or dominating) the actions of other genes, which = a dominant or recessive or mutant gene expression passed on from the two genotypes to the phenotype.

Also proper is "modifying" gene, which = blah de blah = look above.

Indeed somewhat related to the operator gene but totally separate is the "operon", because "Operon" is terminology accepted to address the genetic chromosomal make-up of organisms with prokaryotic cells, which rules out all animals, which leads me to me think Frenchie is in the left field bleachers and making stuff up in cross-references from previously defined terms as he goes along so to suit his case.

The debate into sub-definitions of gene transfer is futile. Due to the fact that it would all lead right back to the simple answer of genes are passed on either in dominant, recessive, or mutant fashion from a momma and a daddy to the baby. You are what you came from.

How bout this for my take of Frenchie's definitions...
Frenchie says: "Hey Bob, have you had gonadotropic induction of folliculogenesis?"
Billy Bob says: "What the heck did you just call me Frenchie?
Interpretation to Frenchie's question? "Are you taking drugs to make your bald spot grow hair?"

Anything can be made to sound, or look, bigger that it really is...

Dr. SwineSmeller

[46zilzal]

46 gets so defensive when anyone dare challenge his "smarts"
Particularly, like many here, when they have no idea what they are talking about and it is easy to quote reliable sources that contradict them.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

My text ain't working. Anyone know why?

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Now it is I guess. Sorry for the clutter..

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Controller genes are so fanciful that all of these authors must be just fooling us is that it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6109943
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1432-0436.1987.tb01545.x
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v194/n4828/abs/194607b0.html
http://www.springerlink.com/content/74132u58nhv77107/
http://www.breastcancercampaign.org/whatwedo/grant/6/
http://www.ist-world.org/ResultPublicationDetails.aspx?ResultPublicationId= 58610d055141401fb8e9b79e050f0258
http://www.ndsu.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/geneexpress/eukaryex1.htm

Very good material Zilzal. I am swayed and better educated than before. A board with an informed group beats the waste of time with the hillbillies I used to board with! Ty.

And P.S. If I'd wanted to impersonate a doctor, I wouldn't have told you I was a nurse now would I? Its just a screen name. I make no bones about it.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

The article on Wilson's Disease is very good. In class tonight, as I work toward a masters degree, Wilson's Disease was part of our material. So I saw this as an oppotunity to further study the disease which always helps in test preparation.

As I opened Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary just now, one thing jumped right off the first line of the definition..

Quoting Taber's: "Wilson's Disease: A hereditary syndrome transmitted as an autosomal recessive trait....

Dominant, recessive, mutant. The only ways genes are expressed in a nutshell.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[PaceAdvantage]

My text ain't working. Anyone know why?I fixed your original note....I'm happy all that typing you did didn't got to waste.

Make sure in the future that the actual QUOTE= tags aren't in italics. For whatever reason, that seems to have messed up your reply.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

I fixed your original note....I'm happy all that typing you did didn't got to waste.

Make sure in the future that the actual QUOTE= tags aren't in italics. For whatever reason, that seems to have messed up your reply.

Thank you Pace. Dr. SwineSmeller

[WinterTriangle]

BB appears to be the best runner Boundary ever sired.

Hard to believe the stud rate was only $10K, and BB bought for $60K.

I'm sure Gary Knapp felt like he had a winning lotto ticket that somehow got lost in a pocket when his jeans went thru the wash! Couldn't afford to buy him back later.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Ran across this info on a surf...

Since foaling Casino Drive in 2005, she has delivered a 2006 colt (by 2000 Breeders' Cup Classic runner-up Giant's Causeway) named [B]Man of Iron, who is in training in Ireland and is expected to soon launch his racing career, and a 2007 Giant's Causeway colt.

Man of Iron has that 5x5 Northern Dancer inbred effect that Zilzal likes. Also has Secretariat as a great grandpa.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[russowen77]

Well on the way.
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/

stand corrected, it is complete.http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr07/070401n.asp
I am glad to see it.

I still think y'all are way too deep into the genetics end. Most breeders I know sure don't work at that level.

One gets biometric data. Bounce that off sires that are filtered by price, location and intent. Take the sires that meet the criteria and do the pedigree work.

That is simplified but I sure have never heard of anyone getting as deep in the genes as y'all are doing.

[asH]

Big Browns chromosomes, are going to whip the snot out of Casino Drive's Cromosomes.:D

[46zilzal]

That is simplified but I sure have never heard of anyone getting as deep in the genes as y'all are doing.
When you understand our limited predictability in what is a lot of randomness, you are knocked back into the reality of "Breed the best to the best and HOPE for the best."

There is a lot of randomness in the equation no matter how well thought out the matings are.

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

When you understand our limited predictability in what is a lot of randomness, you are knocked back into the reality of "Breed the best to the best and HOPE for the best."

There is a lot of randomness in the equation no matter how well thought out the matings are.

Finally we agree on a point of genetics Zil.

Dr. SwineSmeller

[russowen77]

When you understand our limited predictability in what is a lot of randomness, you are knocked back into the reality of "Breed the best to the best and HOPE for the best."

There is a lot of randomness in the equation no matter how well thought out the matings are.
Gee, you think.

[46zilzal]

Gee, you think.
I presented much the same medically based genetic arguments before and got all kinds of novice, "You don't know what I am talking about" experts discounting just about everything quoted from journal after journal. Funny, didn't get that too much this time.