The 1990's Fantasy Classic.

[TheGhost]

Thought I would have some fun with a my first poll. Maybe I could do it for every decade. Seems like good entertainment. Anyway it's a 1 1/4 fantasy race against some of the best of the 90's. Who do you think you would bet to win.

Feel free to not only pick a winner but maybe even post your Exacta and Triple bet for the race.

[Citation33]

Great field. Would be one helluva race. Nice job. I would have to say.
Cigar to win and exacta Cigar over Victory Gallop/Unbridled/Criminal Type and then reveresed.

[Marlin]

Holy Bull is the key horse. IMO there is enough quality speed in here to ensure that Holy Bull's weaknesses would be exposed. So IMHO opinion it is a three horse race. Cigar, A.P. Indy, and Unbridled. Because the price would most likely be sweet I'll bet Unbridled.:)

[KirisClown]

Why isnt there only one option?.. it's so obvious Cigar would win this by at least 20 lths.... while giving weight.

[Premier Turf Club]

It would be hard to leave out Cigar but I'd key Skip Away on top of Cigar, Unbridled and Criminal Type with ALL for 3rd and 4th in Supers. I think Bertandro and Black Tie Affair would make sure Holy Bull (not a 10F horse) wouldn't steal this one.

[Citation33]

"Cigar would win this race by 20 lengths"

I am a big Cigar fan and that's who I would have winnig this,but in no way by 20+ lengths. Real Quiet and Criminal Type have run some time competitive 1 1/4 races. A.P. Indy ran the a 1 1/2 Belmont in 2:26 flat. I just do not think it would be a 20 plus walkover in a field like this. That's going way out there I think.

[Dahoss9698]

Holy Bull is the key horse. IMO there is enough quality speed in here to ensure that Holy Bull's weaknesses would be exposed. So IMHO opinion it is a three horse race. Cigar, A.P. Indy, and Unbridled. Because the price would most likely be sweet I'll bet Unbridled.:)

Just curious, what were Holy Bull's weaknesses?

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Holy Bull, Bertrando and Skip Away would cook each other; it would be AP Indy, Silver Charm and Unbridled.

[Dahoss9698]

Anyone see the 1994 Woodward?

[KirisClown]

Anyone see the 1994 Woodward?


Bertrando cooked him in there...

Holy Bull was an out of control speedball that couldnt be rated... :rolleyes:

[KirisClown]

"Cigar would win this race by 20 lengths"

I am a big Cigar fan and that's who I would have winnig this,but in no way by 20+ lengths. Real Quiet and Criminal Type have run some time competitive 1 1/4 races. A.P. Indy ran the a 1 1/2 Belmont in 2:26 flat. I just do not think it would be a 20 plus walkover in a field like this. That's going way out there I think.

The 20 lths was a joke.. in fact, my entire post was meant in jest.

I doubt Cigar would even have won the race... unless of course, L'Carriere showed up.

[Dahoss9698]

Bertrando cooked him in there...

Holy Bull was an out of control speedball that couldnt be rated... :rolleyes:

One of the more one dimensional horses I can remember. Would have made a great rabbit.

[HolyBull29]

I think saying Cigar would'nt even win the race is nuts:D .
L'Carriere? Did'nt Cigar whip him.

[cj]

Skip Away was much better than Cigar.

[KirisClown]

L'Carriere? Did'nt Cigar whip him.

Yes, it was yet another joke...

Cigar had a real knack for handling the moderately talented L'Carriere...

[sandpit]

Love the poll, and would probably key on A.P. Indy and Cigar, even though Silver Charm's tenacity would make him tough. IMHO, you have one glaring omission: Formal Gold; he beat Skip Away the majority of the time the two faced each other; still holds the record for the fastest Beyer even in a debut (112!); is the only horse of ever to run Beyers' greater than 120 in 4 consecutive races; and after he got injured training just before the BC, he handed the race to Skip Away.

[HolyBull29]

Yeah those are hysterical jokes Kiri's....? Seems like you are knocking Cigar. Ahhh who cares. Cigar beat the best around and beat all of them 16 times in a row. Only lost when he was at theend of his rope and tired. Would've beat Skip Away I think if Skip ran against him earlier. Hey at least the horses he beat CONSISTENTLY ran over 100 beyers. At least he was'nt acclerating on horses who could barely win a G3 race.

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Bertrando cooked him in there...

Holy Bull was an out of control speedball that couldnt be rated... :rolleyes:

The '94 version of Bertrando was a far cry from that of '93. In '93 he won the Woodward by 13.5 lengths and finished second to bomber Arcangues in the BC Classic, as well as setting the track record for 10f at Dmr.

[Dahoss9698]

The '94 version of Bertrando was a far cry from that of '93. In '93 he won the Woodward by 13.5 lengths and finished second to bomber Arcangues in the BC Classic, as well as setting the track record for 10f at Dmr.

You're kind of missing the point. Kiri's point is Bertrando wouldn't cook Holy Bull at all, because he was in fact rateable. He rated just fine in that Woodward and demolished a pretty solid field. You're right that the '93 version of Bertando was different, but I it doesn't change that Holy Bull was tons better than he and possibly everyone on this list. What more could he have done before getting hurt? I don't suppose anyone saw his Met Mile? How about the Travers where he dueled the rabbit to defeat and held off eventual BC Classic champ Concern? For some reason he remains underrated IMO.

[PaceAdvantage]

I couldn't agree more. My vote (obviously) went to Da Bull!

[KirisClown]

The '94 version of Bertrando was a far cry from that of '93. In '93 he won the Woodward by 13.5 lengths and finished second to bomber Arcangues in the BC Classic, as well as setting the track record for 10f at Dmr.

Yes, I know.. once he got a taste of the good life in the breeding barn he wasnt quite the same...

I really liked Bertrando when he was running.. he danced a lot of dances.. He was one dimensional though.. Holy Bull was not..

[TheGhost]

I liked Da Bull,but he was one dimensional. He was a wire to wire horse. Are we talking about Olympic handicap where he was 2nd by just a head at the second call? I mean other than that he migh'tve been second out of the gate for flash but he was a runaway wire to wirer. The two times he could'nt get a lead he lost big time. Bertrando was the same. Needed the lead. Very good horses but one dimensional runners.

[Citation33]

I would'nt say Holy Bull could be rated very well. He broke slow in the Woodward and then rushed up pretty good in the race to get basically on even terms with Bertrando. It's not like Bertrando was a good horse anymore and Bull had to contend with him. He was past his good races. Anyone could lay a head off of him and win. He was 25-1 in the race and lost the Pacific Classic by 34 lengths before the Woodward.

In the Travers,if you watch it Holy Bull rushes right up to Commanche trail after about 10 steps to get even with him. Again Commanche trail was a sprinter. Not any competition. Again,he was on pretty much even terms right from the get go. Commanche Trail packed it in after the Clubhouse turn.

When Holy Bull had to rate off some good horses who could carry themselves he struggled. i.e. The Kentucky Derby and the Fountain of Youth. I would say Bull needed the lead and basically did in all his races.

[Citation33]

Also if laying second very early on in a race means you can rate,then Bertrando could rate too if you're saying Bull could. In his first race Bertrando was laying 2nd by a head at second call and then drew off to win. Doe's that mean he can rate? I don't think so.

[joanied]

:jump: Hey...great idea, this is a cool, fun poll :jump:
I had to go with Cigar...he was simply too awesome to deny...and I do love several in this 'race'...geeze, every one is great...in real life I think they'd take turns beating each other!!!
Picking win through 5th place---
Cigar
Skip Away
AP Indy
Unbridled
Silver Charm

:)

[Dahoss9698]

I liked Da Bull,but he was one dimensional. He was a wire to wire horse. Are we talking about Olympic handicap where he was 2nd by just a head at the second call? I mean other than that he migh'tve been second out of the gate for flash but he was a runaway wire to wirer. The two times he could'nt get a lead he lost big time. Bertrando was the same. Needed the lead. Very good horses but one dimensional runners.

We're talking about the Woodward. Here's the race, so you can watch how effectively he rates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvixU1BNrMA&feature=related

He had a very understanable excuse for his Fountain of Youth flop (medical), which he followed up with a blowout win in the Florida Derby. He threw in a clunker definitely in the Derby. However he followed that up by crushing his elders in the Met Mile. I don't think people really understand how different racing was back then. The Met drew the best field of older horses minus the Breeders Cup that year and he won for fun. Here's that race also.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfCRLP_fQjg&feature=related

[Dahoss9698]

I would'nt say Holy Bull could be rated very well. He broke slow in the Woodward and then rushed up pretty good in the race to get basically on even terms with Bertrando. It's not like Bertrando was a good horse anymore and Bull had to contend with him. He was past his good races. Anyone could lay a head off of him and win. He was 25-1 in the race and lost the Pacific Classic by 34 lengths before the Woodward.

In the Travers,if you watch it Holy Bull rushes right up to Commanche trail after about 10 steps to get even with him. Again Commanche trail was a sprinter. Not any competition. Again,he was on pretty much even terms right from the get go. Commanche Trail packed it in after the Clubhouse turn.

When Holy Bull had to rate off some good horses who could carry themselves he struggled. i.e. The Kentucky Derby and the Fountain of Youth. I would say Bull needed the lead and basically did in all his races.

Do yourself a favor and watch the Woodward again. He doesn't break slow and at no point does he rush up to even terms. It's not even debateable.

I have to be honest though, how you can take anything away from his Travers effort is beyond me. maybe you're not familiar with what a rabbit is used for, but Commanche Trail hounded him through a 46:1 half. Most horses aren't capable of dueling through fractions like that and holding off a multiple grade 1 winner, with a duel Classic winner far, far behind. I would say you need to go back and watch the races a bit closer and think about how different racing was back then.

[KirisClown]

It's not like Bertrando was a good horse anymore and Bull had to contend with him. He was past his good races. Anyone could lay a head off of him and win. He was 25-1 in the race and lost the Pacific Classic by 34 lengths before the Woodward..

Bertrando came back after the Woodward and promtly won the Goodwood over a nice field... It's not as if he was a total slob that couldnt run anymore..

[Dahoss9698]

Bertrando came back after the Woodward and promtly won the Goodwood over a nice field... It's not as if he was a total slob that couldnt run anymore..

Also worth noting that Bertrando's Pacific Classic was his second start back from the initial try at breeding and he dueled through a 44 and 2 half. Makes sense that he would back up so bad.

[asH]

This is easy, Victory Gallop, with all the cheap speed in here :D ...No way Velasquez rides Black Tie Affair with mounts available on Vic Gallop...anyone dare comeup with an unbiased odds line.

[Citation33]

Bertrando was not the same after his earlier season,and Holy Bull did bump break and he was right up there after a couple jumps in the Woodward.

I'm sorry but Bertrando was nothing like he was. In his last 7 graded races,he won only once and was beaten in the others by 34,12,7,25,10, and 5 lengths! He lead into the second call just once in those 7 graded races. He basically turned into a rabbit who just backed up and then lost by huge lengths in his races. He could'nt even get the lead and even hold it in any of his races anymore. Just the facts.

Holy Bull faced two horses ever he had to rate off of,one was Commanche Trail who was a speed ball rabbit who could'nt even lead after the clubhouse turn and just backed up into Bull and Bertrando who was nothing even like his old self and just backed up to the field and lost by 12.

Those horses were'nt running hard into the stretch turn and Bull had to overtake them. They were basically just rabbits who backed up very early,that's all. I am not knockin Bull at ALL. Just saying he was'nt really a horse that could rate off a pace. He ran wire to wire.

[Citation33]

I also say a speed horse on turf who runs in second because some speed crazy longshot runs out front by 12+ lengths(we've all seen it) is not a horse that can rate because the loose speedball backs up to the field and loses by 50+ lengths.

I take nothing away from him,just that in two of his races people are saying,the pop and drop horses(worn down Bertrando and low quality sprinter) retreated back to the Bull and the field at the very beginning of the race and lost by big lengths. They never even carried their speed and the field and Bull have to over take them. I think the Derby showed Bull had to be right up front or nothing.

Question: What's the most Bull layed off the pace at second call and then won?

[TheGhost]

I do not want to get into the arguement and be called anti-Bull because I was a big fan of him,but I will say that I will side with claim that Bertrando and that other horse sprinter Commanche Trail as bad speed horses at that time in those races and just backing up. I do not think anyone rated and over took them. I guess the turf race example by the poster above is good. Holy Bull and whoever just sat right off them and just stayed on as they backed up exhausted. I do not know if Holy could rate. He did'nt seem to want to,but I'm saying I'm not sure. Rate or no rate...Horse of The Year.

[46zilzal]

In would depend on the FORM cycle: Cigar was NOT the horse he was mid-season and Unbridled was at his best.

[TheGhost]

Agree a lot of things would come into play,like form. I think if a lot of speed was up there Victory Gallop would pull off the upset. He never really ran a bad race. Always was there. Still would have to put Cigar first. I will say if Holy Bull got away with an nice kinda lead,he would be tough to catch. Do not know if he would get an easy lead in this field though.

[PaceAdvantage]

Who cares how good or bad Commanche Trail was? The point was he dueled with Holy Bull through the early stages of the Travers. He did his job. It doesn't matter that he spit the bit...that's what he was SUPPOSED to do. His job was to soften up Holy Bull. It wasn't to win the Travers.

[PaceAdvantage]

Go back and look at all the races Holy Bull ran in. Than go back and look at how the horses who finished behind Holy Bull did in their subsequent starts. It is AMAZING how many of the horses who ran behind Holy Bull came back to win a GRADED STAKES in their next start or two....

I dare say there has not been a better 3yo to grace the stage since Holy Bull, and very few before.

He beat EVERYONE that year, a year that was deep and talented, especially among the older crew. He earned monster figures and he won with "devastating ease." He also inspired me like no other horse since....he was freakin' awesome...

[HolyBull29]

I'm a Holy Bull fan obviously by my name but I will say I can not lie,even though I want to and pretend he beat everyone.
1. He did not beat everyone that year. He got beat pretty soundly in the Fountain and the Derby. Excuses come about but when don;t they when a big one loses. He just lost,unfortunatley.
2. I have the Travers on video Commanche Trail did'nt do any job. As said by people here he barely could lead the race. He was done and packing it in after the clubhouse turn. I do not think his job was to run out of the gate and into the far turn. I'm pretty sure they want CT to at least run hard all the way down the backstretch and then give up heading into the far turn. I have to agree he did nothing and just backed up way too early. Bull was running hard from the beginning and would've cut the same fractions if CT was'nt there.
3. Would'nt say Holy Bull was a horse that could rate,but I will say yes he did inspire me too and he was an awesome horse. Love him.

[TheGhost]

Pace: "He beat EVERYONE that year"

Sorry but he did'nt beat EVERYONE. He lost twice that year.

[joanied]

This 'race' is a real toughie because wether or not we want to...most, if not all of us are kind of swaying torwards out favorite horse to win...and it's tough because every horse there was not only a great runner, but we love them all.
Be fun to put all those names as posted for the field into a computer with some sort of program that could pick the finish order by the numbers....no emotions involved.


At any rate...this IS a ton:jump: of fun!!!

[Dahoss9698]

Agree a lot of things would come into play,like form. I think if a lot of speed was up there Victory Gallop would pull off the upset. He never really ran a bad race. Always was there. Still would have to put Cigar first. I will say if Holy Bull got away with an nice kinda lead,he would be tough to catch. Do not know if he would get an easy lead in this field though.

No offense, but even thinking Victory Gallop would have a shot in the race is absurd. It's debateable that he was even the second best 3 year old that year.

[TheGhost]

I just think Victory Gallop was a consistent stealthy closer,who closed in just about every race to win or just miss no matter what the fractions were. I'm not saying he would flat out win a race like this,but if it was little freaky up front,I would'nt be surprised.

[Semipro]

Cigar if all are assumed to be at top of form cycle but maybe I'm playing my favorite. I would box him with SKIP,A.P., and the Holy one.

[HolyBull29]

Imagine in this race you heard,"AND ARAZI RUNS RIGHT BY EM!!!!":eek:
Surprises me that Arazi and Criminal Type got no votes. Especially Arazi.

[Dahoss9698]

Imagine in this race you heard,"AND ARAZI RUNS RIGHT BY EM!!!!":eek:
Surprises me that Arazi and Criminal Type got no votes. Especially Arazi.

:bang:

[HolyBull29]

Sorry DaHoss. Did'nt mean to bother the stick up your...well you know.

Sorry was just posting a fun post about Arazi and that call when he blew by the field. That's why I said "imagine"! :bang:

Did'nt Criminal Type run a 1 1/4 in 1:59.4. Yeah that's horrible and def not competitive.

[asH]

Victory Gallop had to close into slow fractions in most of his races. He's a grinder and would have cherished a faster pace up front...I dont believe Holy Bull would have been able to get the 1 1/4 distance in this race, with this bunch. Compare Bull's Travers with Slews Jockey Gold Cup (2nd a nose) still finished in :25...night and day...probably the best performance by a horse under adversity from the start to the end ever. Look at Victory Gallops BC race shows a lot of heart against older running into slow fractions finishing up uder :25, wait a minute wasnt that Silver Charm he was a length back to...Victory Gallop never lost a Graded race by more than 2.25 lengths, we are talking classic distances, all the greats run clasic distances. Speed horses are another category, no fault of Bull's he was arguably a very good speed horse, can he be compared to Skip Away, Dr. Fager, Lady's Secret?

[Dahoss9698]

It's always a good idea to compare times of races that are years apart. I'm not sure what's worse, that Real Quiet has 2 votes or HolyBull29 wondering why no one has voted for Arazi.

[Citation33]

Obviously you can never tell how this would be run. My guess would be a little fast up front and a closer or stalker wins. Cigar? Skip?

[46zilzal]

Exterminator, Native Dancer, the Biscuit and others would make it interesting as well

[PaceAdvantage]

Pace: "He beat EVERYONE that year"

Sorry but he did'nt beat EVERYONE. He lost twice that year.No, he beat EVERYONE. Look at the charts again. Any horse of consequence (I'm obviously not going to count some allowance horse who happened to finish in front of him as he choked on his tongue in the FOY) that finished in front of him was beaten down eventually. Go For Gin beat him in the Derby, and was subsequently crushed by da Bull. Dehere, Ride The Rails?

Like I said, he beat EVERYONE that year....I didn't say he won every race, but he did beat EVERYONE and ANYONE who mattered even one bit....

[46zilzal]

Horses of that quality might very well take turns on beating one another dependent on the track and distance. Aqueduct might be one winner and the Fair Grounds a very different winner.

[joanied]

Exterminator, Native Dancer, the Biscuit and others would make it interesting as well

Zil....look at the title....this race is for the decade of the 90's ;)

[46zilzal]

Zil....look at the title....this race is for the decade of the 90's ;)
Fantasy is the operative word no matter when the generational differences are compared.

[joanied]

Fantasy is the operative word no matter when the generational differences are compared.

True, true....I was just pointing out that 'theghost' started this FANTASY Classic with the decade of the 90's in mind....so there should be no generational difference within this fantasy race:)

[PaceAdvantage]

Once again, "46zilzal" when translated into English means TANGENT.