Dutrow's Arrogance = I don't want Big Brown to win and I can't believe it.

[menifee]

Big Brown is a nice horse and a part of me really wants to see a triple crown winner in my lifetime. The way he has won his races is magnificient.

I'm 31 and don't remember Affirmed as I was only 2 and it would be amazing to finally see it.

But I'll be honest - I'm rooting against him because of his arrogant trainer.

First of all the comments after the Preakness regarding Casino Drive and Godzilla in the winner circle were completely unnecessary. Second of all, to make comments regarding Smarty Jones connections (regardless of whether they are true or not) is low class. Finally to criticize Prado regarding his ride in the Preakness was completely ridiculous.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/05/29/2008-05-29_trainer_rick_dutrow_opens_mouth_sounds_l-2.html

This trainer and his medicine bag are not good for the game. I really don't want this horse to win. It's unbelievable that I feel this way, but if karma does exist, Dutrow will not be the trainer of a triple crown winner.

[PaceAdvantage]

I find Dutrow's comments refreshingly candid. I've had enough of the canned sports analogies and "team-talk" from Lukas and Pletcher over the years. Boring, boring, boring.

[rrbauer]

I'm hoping for two things:

1. BB wins the Belmont

2. You (menifee) get over it.

[jonnielu]

Big Brown is a nice horse and a part of me really wants to see a triple crown winner in my lifetime. The way he has won his races is magnificient.

I'm 31 and don't remember Affirmed as I was only 2 and it would be amazing to finally see it.

But I'll be honest - I'm rooting against him because of his arrogant trainer.

First of all the comments after the Preakness regarding Casino Drive and Godzilla in the winner circle were completely unnecessary. Second of all, to make comments regarding Smarty Jones connections (regardless of whether they are true or not) is low class. Finally to criticize Prado regarding his ride in the Preakness was completely ridiculous.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/05/29/2008-05-29_trainer_rick_dutrow_opens_mouth_sounds_l-2.html

This trainer and his medicine bag are not good for the game. I really don't want this horse to win. It's unbelievable that I feel this way, but if karma does exist, Dutrow will not be the trainer of a triple crown winner.

He deserves to win for having the guts to do things differently and to speak his piece honestly instead of delivering some sugar-coated false image driven line of drivel.

It should be noted, that a man can succeed in spite of his mistakes if he believes in himself enough to get out of his own way.

jdl

[Bruddah]

is a bit like carrying a poisonous viper in your back pocket. You can forget that it's there and accidentally sit on it. Resulting in it biting you in the ass. If Dutrow is going to be critical of the way another trainer brought his horse to the final race for the TC, he should be smart enough to have secured the Triple crown first. A least he would have a slightly larger and more secure platform from which to pontificate.

I hope Mr Dutrow hasn't sat on a poisonous viper. It could get UGLY, if he has. (JMHO) :D

[BCOURTNEY]

If he thinks BB will win, he wants more hate, means more money in the pool against him, and a larger resulting win ticket happily cashed, then he can act humbled and thankful. :)

[asH]

Dutrow can take what he dishes. He's having fun with it...I doubt he will have an excuse if (possible)things dont go BB's way (like a safety pin). Speaking of Desormeaux, redemption: will rate until the top of the stretch then let him go, looking back for demons once or twice, if he's sure he wont look back at all

[1st time lasix]

I don't care for the connections either. Convicted crooks and a cocky trainer that cheats. I still root for honesty, striving for excellence, integrity and compassion in this country. Guess that makes me an old fashion American.

[Stevie Belmont]

Here is a guy that gave out the Derby winner and Preakness winner with the utmost confidence, and yet people are still not happy.

Dutrow is da man in my book....

[PaceAdvantage]

Convicted crooksUmmm....no? I don't believe this is accurate, truthful or honest. Connections never convicted of anything. One of them was disciplined, fined and suspended by NASD, but there has never been a conviction of any kind in a court of law that I am aware of....

Please be careful posting stuff like this....

[Grits]

I don't care for the connections either. Convicted crooks and a cocky trainer that cheats. I still root for honesty, striving for excellence, integrity and compassion in this country. Guess that makes me an old fashion American.

I got an idea.

If you were planning to go to Belmont for the day; instead, give your ticket to someone who may want to see the race. Allow them the entire day at the track.

If you're going to be at home watching the race on tv, throw the tv in the middle of the street. And don't be bothered.

Seriously. Because, I mean, really, we're all aware that thoroughbred racing is far more corrupt, far more heinous in its everyday operations than our politicians--each of whom--are paragons of the honesty, integrity, excellence and compassion that you seek.

As had been stated, THE HORSE doesn't know a thing about who owns or trains him. He's clueless regarding his connections respective images.

He knows his hayrack, his feed tub and his water bucket are each full.

He knows his bath feels nice every morning, after he comes back from the track.

He knows he's lying in straw that's four feet deep in his stall.

To him, life's good. Damn good!!!

It doesn't matter what you think of his conX's, its not about them.

Its about BROWN--its about the horse. And that's as it should be.

Root for him. Pull for something positive to happen, when the world is watching. The sport can benefit.

[PaceAdvantage]

How much you want to make a bet we could dig up some serious dirt on enough of these "feel-good" trainers and owners if we tried?

But since they don't come from NY (I know, nothing bad ever happens in Kentucky), and their last name doesn't end in a vowel, we just nod our heads and swallow all the lines they are feeding us....

[Greyfox]

I want Big Brown to win.

As for Dutrow, "What goes around comes around." He'll take a fall some day. Let it not be the Belmont.

But what a movie this is going to make if Big Brown wins.
Audiences are not going to find whoever plays the part of Dutrow as believable.
Who ever plays the part will be perceived as an overacting ham.
Dutrow isn't refreshing. He's arrogant. He's the biggest kid in the school now and he's going to bully the other kids for as long as he can. He's taking his 15 minutes in the sun and theirs. But what goes around comes around. You'll see.

[ghostyapper]

The most important rule in sports or any competition.

You win with class you lose with class.

[asH]

Let her/him without sin cast the first stone

[Marshall Bennett]

Once in a great while something positive happens to help pick up this game and give it the badly needed shot it needs . I see that now with Big Brown . Its really hard to understand anyone involved with horse racing picking that apart , except that perhaps they're miserable people . :confused:

[46zilzal]

Don't like the colt or his connections, but the positive effect on racing is the bigger idea here.

[Donnie]

Zil-
I normally fight the feeling to become emotionally attached to a horse. Still fighting that feeling with Big Brown! This horse has actually "grown" on me.
Was wondering if you (or anyone else) could share what it is you don't like about this colt, other than his connections or the perceived "lack of competition"...?
In my eyes this horse has done everything asked of him in a very professional way. He reportedly is a very smart horse. In my eyes, again, he carries himself with class. He is alert to his surroundings and seems to understand his role in racing. By all reports, he wants to run. Sounds like he relishes it.
The accolades put upon this horse by other owners/trainers is something I do not believe I have ever seen in my lifetime. If I were an owner, this sounds like the one to own!
Those who do not like him...is it because he cost you money thru the windows? Does he not have the level of competition you wished he had?
I am just wondering.....

[PaceAdvantage]

Once in a great while something positive happens to help pick up this game and give it the badly needed shot it needs . I see that now with Big Brown . Its really hard to understand anyone involved with horse racing picking that apart , except that perhaps they're miserable people . :confused:The reality is, these "something positives" rarely if ever have a lasting effect. Can we name one positive in the last 30 years that has given racing a lasting shot in the arm?

I know two.....online wagering and inter-state simucasting. But these really aren't "positive feel good stories" having to do with the actual sport.

[joanied]

I have to agree with PA and some others that will be rooting :ThmbUp: for BB...
when BB first came on the scene and I read about Dutrow, I was not sure I liked the guy, but as mentioned, you cannot dislike the horse via his connections...
but as the TC road went on...I am of the same thinking as PA...this man IS a breath of fresh air...especially compared to the very stuffy & pompus Pletcher...I don't give a rats ass what Dutrow did years ago with his own drug use ect...people clean up, people change, and I admire anyone :ThmbUp: that can pull himself out of 'the life' and remain clean, sober and do as well as he has...more power to him!! (I am not crazy about IEAH...wish the owners were more down to earth, regular folks, but hey...they are who they are).

Nothing wrong with Dutrow speaking his mind about other trainers...even Smarty Jones connections, and I agree with him about Smarty...that Preakness win took it all out of him, had he been geared down like Kent D did with BB, he very well may have taken the TC.
And Kent D will get his Real Quiet 'monkey' off his back on June 7th...he did the royal screw up with RQ, and in so many words, admits his mistake...

I can't wait...hurry June 7th...and I will be screaming my lungs out, cryin' like a baby, jumping up & down:jump: and rooting home our 12th Triple Crown winner...and completely enjoy the reaction from Dutrow & his crew.
Go,Go,Gooooooo Big Brown!!
Yeah, babe!!

[ezpace]

Introduced to him once @Belmont few years back,,, briefly ...my read =

full of confidence.but.down to earth .. i can see how some would call it arrogance ,I doubt it.

only knock i got is the hop use . i'm not talking about
the winstrol.

Hracing in NY and most other circuits is over ran with the crap!!!!!

[46zilzal]

Zil-
.
Was wondering if you (or anyone else) could share what it is you don't like about this colt, other than his connections or the perceived "lack of competition"...?
We will NEVER get a handle on this one since he won't be around and has never even been challenged. Like having Pavlova dance for a few months, then retire to be a mom. A total waste of time.

[ponyplayerdotca]

As far as the horse, I love him and hope he runs another top race in the Belmont win or lose. (My guess is if he does, he's the winner).

As for the trainer, and all of those of you who support him, I have one thing to say:

I have no problem with him talking big or talking trash about his horse or the other horses or connections - all's fair in love and war. It makes for good theatre, whether you see it as classless or not.

But if Big Brown doesn't win the race, especially if it's a "hijack Smarty Jones" situation like in 2004, I don't want to hear one word of sour grapes or negative excuse about tactics coming out of him or any of you after the race.

He's verbally set himself up for praise if Big Brown takes the Triple Crown, but he's also opened the door for any detractors to dump on him if the horse fails. And if Dutrow whines about losing for any reason other than "hey, that's horse racing, we gave it our best shot", you'll see he's the kind that CAN'T take it like he can dish it out.

All hail to him and the horse if they win, but no mercy on them if they lose. All's fair, just keep it that way on this board afterwards as well gentlemen.

As far as wagering, just do what you always do guys - key off Big Brown, handicap the other horses well, and combo up the numbers to maximize your profit. Enjoy the race on the 7th boys.

[Wiley]

Similarly Johnny Campo comes to mind with Pleasant Colony in '81. Talked up the horse winning but to his credit, if I recall correctly, did not make excuses when he lost the Belmont, the grind just wore the horse down, knew he wasn't the same horse prior to the Belmont. The press seemed to love Campo. Dutrow's baggage might come into play here. The connections are most always a part of the perception of a horse for better or worse and for bettors whether or not you can make any money through the horse is a factor, at least to me.

It would be nice to see this colt somewhat tested before he retires and to me the ones I really loved are also the ones that show the biggest hearts in tough races. Big Brown might never face a horse even close to his caliber, through no fault of his own, but it would be nice to see him against Curlin on dirt and maybe Curlin could give him a tussel like Ferdinand and Alysheba.

[WinterTriangle]

Love the horse. Lovely temperment, too.

As for Dutrow, sometimes a *picture* paints a thousands words..here's a verbal picture. To me, it tramples on everything that is tradition and should be respected:

"When it came time to take photos in the winner's circle following the Derby, Dutrow bucked tradition by throwing the blanket of roses at Nevin and Blum rather than lay it over Big Brown's neck ... Nevin and Blum dutifully held the flowers for a moment, then dropped the blanket on the ground to join the party, leaving the most hallowed floral arrangement in sports laying on the infield for a few hours before it was rescued by a state trooper."



HARDLY refreshing, if you ask me.

[Donnie]

Sad but true Zil, but that is the business side of this sport. I would love to see him run after the Belmont. But I highly doubt that will happen. The owners will take their $50M and call it a good day. But this is a "connections" issue, not a horse issue. I don't see much wrong with the horse. And he can only run against whomever he was born with.....for now.

[46zilzal]

I recall another one I despised was running at Longacers and I was down for the day but the logic circuits kicked in as this three year old should have been 9/5 and was 3/1. He won and I still cussed his name but accepted the overlay.

[asH]

Love the horse. Lovely temperment, too.

As for Dutrow, sometimes a *picture* paints a thousands words..here's a verbal picture. To me, it tramples on everything that is tradition and should be respected:

"When it came time to take photos in the winner's circle following the Derby, Dutrow bucked tradition by throwing the blanket of roses at Nevin and Blum rather than lay it over Big Brown's neck ... Nevin and Blum dutifully held the flowers for a moment, then dropped the blanket on the ground to join the party, leaving the most hallowed floral arrangement in sports laying on the infield for a few hours before it was rescued by a state trooper."



HARDLY refreshing, if you ask me.


Winter, BB spooked when they attempted to place the roses on him, Dutrow concluded it was the roses, so they decided to place them in front of BB..flowers wouldnt have looked good on Dutrow.

[joanied]

Winter, BB spooked when they attempted to place the roses on him, Dutrow concluded it was the roses, so they decided to place them in front of BB..flowers wouldnt have looked good on Dutrow.

That is spot on...when he won the FL Derby, he spooked big time when they tried putting the balnket of flowers (lillies??) on him...he did the same thing for the KD...Dutrow did the right thing.
Gotta get your facts straight before you trash something.
And also...Dutrow had the blanket of roses at his barn...laid out on the railing outside of BB's stall.

[joanied]

Once in a great while something positive happens to help pick up this game and give it the badly needed shot it needs . I see that now with Big Brown . Its really hard to understand anyone involved with horse racing picking that apart , except that perhaps they're miserable people . :confused:

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[menifee]

Ummm....no? I don't believe this is accurate, truthful or honest. Connections never convicted of anything. One of them was disciplined, fined and suspended by NASD, but there has never been a conviction of any kind in a court of law that I am aware of....

Please be careful posting stuff like this....

Here is an article summarizing IEAH's connections. They have not been found guilty in a court of law.

They sound like saints though. Would like to meet that secret European Investor who dropped 800K.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-enmike0529,0,6568725.story

[joanied]

Similarly Johnny Campo comes to mind with Pleasant Colony in '81. Talked up the horse winning but to his credit, if I recall correctly, did not make excuses when he lost the Belmont, the grind just wore the horse down, knew he wasn't the same horse prior to the Belmont. The press seemed to love Campo. Dutrow's baggage might come into play here. The connections are most always a part of the perception of a horse for better or worse and for bettors whether or not you can make any money through the horse is a factor, at least to me.

It would be nice to see this colt somewhat tested before he retires and to me the ones I really loved are also the ones that show the biggest hearts in tough races. Big Brown might never face a horse even close to his caliber, through no fault of his own, but it would be nice to see him against Curlin on dirt and maybe Curlin could give him a tussel like Ferdinand and Alysheba.

I knew Fat John well....my ex galloped horses for him...he was a riot to be around and so full of himself it was amusing...he was a great guy and horseman... and the first to admit he was wrong...I have no doubt that IF BB looses the Belmont, Dutrow will not find any lame excuse...he'll take the lose the same way as a win...with class...despite what some think of him...he is not a BS artist.

[menifee]

I'm hoping for two things:

1. BB wins the Belmont

2. You (menifee) get over it.

LOL. I promise to get over it no matter what happens. BTW, great links - very informative material regarding takeout.

[Grits]

Dutrow will not find any lame excuse...he'll take the lose the same way as a win...with class...despite what some think of him...he is not a BS artist.

Joanie, you are THE FIRST PERSON I have read or heard, ANYWHERE use Rick Dutrow's name and follow it with the term class. Indeed, the first.

Honesty and straightforwardness are one thing; crass is another. As a friend commented this morning, "he's a little old to be enrolling in charm school."

[joanied]

Joanie, you are THE FIRST PERSON I have read or heard, ANYWHERE use Rick Dutrow's name and follow it with the term class. Indeed, the first.

Honesty and straightforwardness are one thing; crass is another. As a friend commented this morning, "he's a little old to be enrolling in charm school."

Hey...there's a first time :eek: for everything!!!! And I've always been a pioneer of sorts ;) (when I started working on the backstretch at Belmont...there were maybe 5 other women there)
:D
But, seriously, Grits... maybe I used the wrong word, but I only wanted to point out that I think Dutrow would accept BB loosing the Belmont with....hmmmm, what word am I looking for...maybe...dignity? No excuses for the horse (unless it's something obvious that we'd all see)...he'd walk away shaking his head, and might have his 'tail between his legs', but the man won't offer up any BS to the media. And I beleive he'd give credit to the winning trainer too.
Now, if BB wins (and my heart is set on that)...Dutrow will celebrate :jump: like a crazy man...there won't be any false bravado, I doubt he'd say "I told you so", but I'm sure he'd say something about his confidence in the horse was so high and strong BECAUSE of the HORSE and how he feels about BB.
If BB wins, Dutrow will be in tears....and I like that. Maybe he IS too old to attend Charm School...but for me, a street wise New Yorker, his charm is his candor...and I'm enjoying every bit of it!!
Tah-Dah!!

[Grits]

And fact is Joanie, most of us would fail charm school anyway! Regardless of our age. LOLOLLLLLLLLL

[Imriledup]

The last thing we need to hear if BB loses is hoof excuses or missed training excuses.


Has BB even had a published workout since the Preakness? I don't believe that he had a workout between the Derby and Preakness either.

Doesn't anyone think BB might have a fitness question going 1 1/2? Im no trainer and maybe he's 100 pct fit, but usually guys work horses at least once before they go a buck and a half, no?

As far as Dutrow's 'arrogance' goes, i've read here that people find him 'refreshing' and are glad he's 'honest' and tells it like it is....but, do you really have to put other people down in order to accomplish the goal of being refreshingly honest? Or, candid?

If putting people down is what a person needs to do to be candid and 'different' than you can give me a guy who lies and says he loves everyone.

[joanied]

And fact is Joanie, most of us would fail charm school anyway! Regardless of our age. LOLOLLLLLLLLL

And in her most ;) charming manner, yours truly says you are right on!!!
:) :) :)

[joanied]

The last thing we need to hear if BB loses is hoof excuses or missed training excuses.


Has BB even had a published workout since the Preakness? I don't believe that he had a workout between the Derby and Preakness either.

Doesn't anyone think BB might have a fitness question going 1 1/2? Im no trainer and maybe he's 100 pct fit, but usually guys work horses at least once before they go a buck and a half, no?

As far as Dutrow's 'arrogance' goes, i've read here that people find him 'refreshing' and are glad he's 'honest' and tells it like it is....but, do you really have to put other people down in order to accomplish the goal of being refreshingly honest? Or, candid?

If putting people down is what a person needs to do to be candid and 'different' than you can give me a guy who lies and says he loves everyone.

BB will get a work before the Belmont...next week sometime. He's been out for long gallops. No doubt he's still a very fit horse, hasn't lost any weight, looks super and he was tearing down the barn when they had to stop on him for the quarter crack. He'll be 100% fit, and I also beleive this colt has inherited the 'holy grail'... a large heart.

Who did Dutrow put down and how?
He is certainly entitled to his opinions...are you talking about his comments on the Smarty Jones team...they DID screw up with that horse...he should have won the Triple Crown.

[completebill]

[QUOTE=menifee]Big Brown is a nice horse and a part of me really wants to see a triple crown winner in my lifetime. The way he has won his races is magnificient.

I'm 31 and don't remember Affirmed as I was only 2 and it would be amazing to finally see it.

But I'll be honest - I'm rooting against him because of his arrogant trainer.

First of all the comments after the Preakness regarding Casino Drive and Godzilla in the winner circle were completely unnecessary. Second of all, to make comments regarding Smarty Jones connections (regardless of whether they are true or not) is low class. Finally to criticize Prado regarding his ride in the Preakness was completely ridiculous.


---I'm probably just stating the obvious here, but my observation is that all of Dutrow's "arrogant" criticisms/ comments have been accurate.
The horse will not offer value (although I've cashed what I thought were good value tris on both the Derby & Preakness!), but Big Brown should handily win the Belmont.
Yes--any horse can lose--injury, horrible trip, gate accident, etc., etc. Otherwise I'm listening to Dutrow. For what it's worth, my son is an "insider", and is close to Dutrow and the horse. He (my son) was a very skilled trainer in his own right, and his opinion is concurrent with Rick's--The horse is thriving and, barring the unknown and unforeseeable, has no serious competition.
BB will AGAIN be my tri/serial/ super key.

[slewis]

Quote: by Joanied:


I knew Fat John well....my ex galloped horses for him...he was a riot to be around and so full of himself it was amusing...he was a great guy and horseman... and the first to admit he was wrong...I have no doubt that IF BB looses the Belmont, Dutrow will not find any lame excuse...he'll take the lose the same way as a win...with class...despite what some think of him...he is not a BS artist.
__________________
joanied :ThmbDown:

Great horseman....... I dont think so.

Was you ex around when he used to slice the frog on a horses feet before walking to the paddock for it's race? The theory being that the pain would make the horse pick up each hoof more quickly and run faster?
Ever hear about the blood on the floor in the stall he saddled his horses prior to race? I thought is was bull when I heard it.. so know what I did.....
I went to Johnny Campo jr. and asked if it was true......

He admitted it. :ThmbDown:

[Shenanigans]

The horse has more class than his trainer. That's a given. Pletcher and Lukas may sound "boring" but at least they don't stoop to the level of bad mouthing a trainer that lost the Belmont with a nice horse 4 years ago. Dutrow's comments about Casino Drive and connections weren't exactly respectful either.
If this sport is dying for positives, Dutrow talking trash about other trainers and their horses isn't contributing to that aspect. I would take boring and class over arrogance and trash in this sport any day. Anyone calling Dutrow "refreshing" really needs to look up the meaning of the word. "Crass" would be more fitting.

Just because a person is not a fan of a trainer doesn't mean they can't be a fan of the horse. I am a fan of Curlin, but not too fond of his trainer. I respect BB but can't say the same for his trash trainer.

[samyn on the green]

Love Dutrow and everything about him. Sure he bends the rules, but he reminds me of the Sinatra/Anka song My Way. The guy has brass balls, panache and personality. Dutrow owns the trifecta of vital personality traits. In a world where everyone says the same thing and everyone says nothing Dutrow has very funny, bold things to say, he is the kind of person that racing needs in-front of a camera. Dutrow's personality trifecta is in short supply. He is a breath of fresh air in this world of political correctness and bland vapid personalties.

[whyhorseofcourse]

Dutrow is just fortunate to train big brown.
Hes not a hall of fame trainer. Big brown might put him there.

He should let his horse do the talking. FWIW

[PaceAdvantage]

If this sport is dying for positives, Dutrow talking trash about other trainers and their horses isn't contributing to that aspect.Trash talk is a part of sports. It happens in all sports. Why should racing sit out that kind of excitement? It makes for good copy.

You and others say that racing is dying for positives. I agree, but there have been many, many positives, and where have they gotten us? Did Nafzger/Genter bring about the second golden age of racing? Or how about Miller/Mellon? Cigar?

None of these positives brought about any lasting popularity or enhancement to the game. Racing is what it is, and it isn't going to die or be reborn based on any set of temporary negatives or positives. You would need real and lasting positives, and this game is anything but lasting. Our stars are fleeting....it is what it is....

Enjoy the moment while it's here, if you can.

[Shenanigans]

OK, now I am getting it, especially you men, you all are into Dutrows machismo. All these posts talking how great his arrogance is, his "brass balls", Oh, and even his "assasination" remark probably really got the "mo" going, huh? :rolleyes: :lol:

[Shenanigans]

Trash talk is a part of sports. It happens in all sports. Why should racing sit out that kind of excitement? It makes for good copy.

You and others say that racing is dying for positives. I agree, but there have been many, many positives, and where have they gotten us? Did Nafzger/Genter bring about the second golden age of racing? Or how about Miller/Mellon? Cigar?

None of these positives brought about any lasting popularity or enhancement to the game. Racing is what it is, and it isn't going to die or be reborn based on any set of temporary negatives or positives. You would need real and lasting positives, and this game is anything but lasting. Our stars are fleeting....it is what it is....

Enjoy the moment while it's here, if you can.

Face it, the negatives make a greater impact than the positives. You should know that by now.

[samyn on the green]

Exactly, Dutrow is a man's man. A true blue collar man who is very good at what he does. He may be a bit of a sneak but the last time a checked being a bit sneaky is part of the trainers job description. These guys are not high school guidance counselors or "eastern region director of process improvement". Dutrow is a throwback to the game of old, every comment is like a poker hand move designed to bluff, intimate or draw in his competition. Dutrow eats racetrack dirt for breakfast and shits mutuel tickets all afternoon, he is a true racetracker. OK, now I am getting it, especially you men, you all are into Dutrows machismo. All these posts talking how great his arrogance is, his "brass balls", Oh, and even his "assasination" remark probably really got the "mo" going, huh? :rolleyes: :lol:

[slewis]

You know I think everyone's giving Rick a bit too much credit here.


Tell you what I mean.... All Rick said was that he didn't see any horse that can run with his horse in the KD. Then it was much of the same in the Preakness.
Heck, any VERY good handicapper and speed figure player could see based on his Fla derby race that he was superior to everyone else going into the derby.
At that point Rick probably KNEW his horse was getting BETTER and stronger (this happens when a lightly raced horse gets sound and can train hard) and didn't see any other horses showing him anything special in their preps.
Everyone has to admit virtually all the prep races for the Derby were filled in inconsistancy and mediocracy.
Rick knew this, and he probably also knew his horse would continue to IMPROVE. That of course the public does NOT know for sure, but Rick knows.
I personally think ( I dont chat with Rick much anymore so I dont know for sure) but it's like pitching a major league pitcher in a high school game.
You KNOW he's not gonna get beat unless something VERY stupid happens.
I dont think it was cocky at all... he knew what he had.. he knew what everyone else had, case closed.

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Dutrow's a monkey who would be cleaning stalls if it weren't for steroids and who, as good as Big Brown is, will get the TC only because of the horrible 3 yo talent this year.

[PaceAdvantage]

Dutrow's a monkey who would be cleaning stalls if it weren't for steroids.....As if Dutrow is the only one using steroids.

According to a certain revered trainer named Michael Dickinson, 95% of trainers use steroids on their horses. It's legal (for now) and used by most everyone....like Lasix....whether the horse needs it or not....

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

I'm aware of that but certain trainers, Dutrow among them, were nowhere until steroid use became widespread and all of a sudden they've leapt to national prominence. Gotta believe it's their ability to manage chemicals and not to manage horses.

[Shenanigans]

How much you want to make a bet we could dig up some serious dirt on enough of these "feel-good" trainers and owners if we tried?

But since they don't come from NY (I know, nothing bad ever happens in Kentucky), and their last name doesn't end in a vowel, we just nod our heads and swallow all the lines they are feeding us....

Nothing bad ever happens in Kentucky? Ever hear of Calumet Farm? Or how about those sponging incidents? I seem to recall Churchhill having a time with that. How about Biancone? Didn't that take place in KY?

[Shenanigans]

You know I think everyone's giving Rick a bit too much credit here.


Tell you what I mean.... All Rick said was that he didn't see any horse that can run with his horse in the KD. Then it was much of the same in the Preakness.
Heck, any VERY good handicapper and speed figure player could see based on his Fla derby race that he was superior to everyone else going into the derby.
At that point Rick probably KNEW his horse was getting BETTER and stronger (this happens when a lightly raced horse gets sound and can train hard) and didn't see any other horses showing him anything special in their preps.
Everyone has to admit virtually all the prep races for the Derby were filled in inconsistancy and mediocracy.
Rick knew this, and he probably also knew his horse would continue to IMPROVE. That of course the public does NOT know for sure, but Rick knows.
I personally think ( I dont chat with Rick much anymore so I dont know for sure) but it's like pitching a major league pitcher in a high school game.
You KNOW he's not gonna get beat unless something VERY stupid happens.
I dont think it was cocky at all... he knew what he had.. he knew what everyone else had, case closed.

Him being cocky and arrogant is what makes him open his trap and brag of what he has. A class trainer that knows what he has doesn't have to bad mouth other trainers and horses and brag about his stock.

[Shenanigans]

Exactly, Dutrow is a man's man. A true blue collar man who is very good at what he does. He may be a bit of a sneak but the last time a checked being a bit sneaky is part of the trainers job description. These guys are not high school guidance counselors or "eastern region director of process improvement". Dutrow is a throwback to the game of old, every comment is like a poker hand move designed to bluff, intimate or draw in his competition. Dutrow eats racetrack dirt for breakfast and shits mutuel tickets all afternoon, he is a true racetracker.

It's a matter of opinion whether a person chooses to like Dutrow for what he is. Personally, I choose not to lower my standards by admiring a trash talking, cheating trainer. There are hundreds of "blue collar" trainers out there that still have something that Dutrow lacks - class. Dutrow is far cry from being a "throwback to the game of old". Still, the word class is what parts him from that category.

[Imriledup]

Love Dutrow and everything about him. Sure he bends the rules, but he reminds me of the Sinatra/Anka song My Way. The guy has brass balls, panache and personality. Dutrow owns the trifecta of vital personality traits. In a world where everyone says the same thing and everyone says nothing Dutrow has very funny, bold things to say, he is the kind of person that racing needs in-front of a camera. Dutrow's personality trifecta is in short supply. He is a breath of fresh air in this world of political correctness and bland vapid personalties.

I don't mind the bold statements, but chopping someone else down to raise yourself up isn't my idea of a breath of fresh air. You think its 'fresh air' to call out a fellow trainer and say he butchered the Belmont because he didn't do a good job? If Birdstone doesn't pick up the bit, Smarty wins the triple crown by the length of the stretch with the exact same ride, exact same preparation and exact same everything. What did Birdstone running the race of his life have to do with Smarty being prepared bad?

Also, what does a person gain by chopping someone else down in front of the entire world? Does it make him feel more 'confident' as a trainer that he's made John Servis out to be a moron? Why would you need to chop someone down to make yourself feel better?

If he was a 'mans man' like someone else in this thread mentioned, he would go behind the scenes and confront Servis to his face and tell him he's an idiot and screwed up Smarty.........a real man would look another man in the eye if he had something negative or critical to say and not air that out for the entire world to hear..............ESPECIALLY now that he appears to be a supertrainer because of one freaky horse he lucked into training.

Where was this guy a week, a month or a year after Smarty lost the TC? He had ample opportunity to call up the press and issue a statement about Servis bad training but he waits till now to call the guy out......years after the fact? That's bush league.

Is he on a mission to offend everyone in the racing industry? What do you accomplish by offending people like he does? He took a swipe at the entire crop of the Derby field by saying this is a bad group, etc.

How would you feel if you owned a horse who just missed the triple crown and this guy, who used to live in a tack room and was a drug abuser on himself and his horses calls YOU out as an idiot?

How would you like it if you had a horse in this year's Derby and the trainer of the favorite made a blanket statement that your horse stinks (in so many words)?

And don't tell me you'd appreciate the honesty because you darn well know you wouldn't.

There must be some method to the madness.........there must be some reason that everytime this guy opens his mouth he's trying to offend someone, i just don't know what it is and what he aim's to accomplish.

If someone knows, please let us in on it.

[samyn on the green]

Let's face it, Servis squeezed the lemon dry with Smarty Jones. Smarty was fractious before the race, fractious during the race and thus faltered in the lane. It was a huge disappointment and it was about time someone called out the connections on botching the training job. After the race the horse was so used up he could not stand nor race anymore. Is that some kind of training job to be proud of? Dutrow is going to show you how it's done in just a few days.

Nobody has the balls to say the truth, but Dutrow has. When you win by five in hand you have the right to call the other horses tomato cans, because they are inferior as proven on the track. I i owned one of them I would just laugh it off and look for an easier spot. Not everyone needs to be stroked at all times.

He is the guy that bet $160k on St Liam, when you wield stones the size of beach balls you can say what you like and rile up all those who are not used to hearing the truth and those that expect everything to be sugar coated. He has the right to say the truth, because he walks the walk and talks the talk. Just yesterday at Belmont he trained Rising Moon (http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesIndexAction.do?TRK=BEL&CTY=USA&DATE=20080530&RN=5)off a one year layoff, he won going 1 1/16th on the dirt over high class allowance horses. He opened up 2-5 so the money from the barn was down and he delivered to the owner, the help and the public. It is not easy to train a horse to win off the layoff going long on the dirt. Most trainers will not even try, Dutrow delivers.

Look how he has got you going, typing paragraph after paragraph, you can bet that he does not give a rats behind what you think, but you are certainly riled up regarding what Dutrow says. He has truly touched a nerve abd that is how you know he is for real when the reaction is so polarized for and against.

[onefast99]

I find Dutrow's comments refreshingly candid. I've had enough of the canned sports analogies and "team-talk" from Lukas and Pletcher over the years. Boring, boring, boring.
Dutrow adds that NY tough guy zestiness to this final chapter of the Triple Crown. I have a Pletcher bobble head doll it has more character then Pletcher himself!

[Grits]

Let's face it, Servis squeezed the lemon dry with Smarty Jones. Smarty was fractious before the race, fractious during the race and thus faltered in the lane. It was a huge disappointment and it was about time someone called out the connections on botching the training job. After the race the horse was so used up he could not stand nor race anymore. Is that some kind of training job to be proud of? Dutrow is going to show you how it's done in just a few days.

Nobody has the balls to say the truth, but Dutrow has. When you win by five in hand you have the right to call the other horses tomato cans, because they are inferior as proven on the track. I i owned one of them I would just laugh it off and look for an easier spot. Not everyone needs to be stroked at all times.

He is the guy that bet $160k on St Liam, when you wield stones the size of beach balls you can say what you like and rile up all those who are not used to hearing the truth and those that expect everything to be sugar coated. He has the right to say the truth, because he walks the walk and talks the talk. Just yesterday at Belmont he trained Rising Moon (http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesIndexAction.do?TRK=BEL&CTY=USA&DATE=20080530&RN=5)off a one year layoff, he won going 1 1/16th on the dirt over high class allowance horses. He opened up 2-5 so the money from the barn was down and he delivered to the owner, the help and the public. It is not easy to train a horse to win off the layoff going long on the dirt. Most trainers will not even try, Dutrow delivers.

Look how he has got you going, typing paragraph after paragraph, you can bet that he does not give a rats behind what you think, but you are certainly riled up regarding what Dutrow says. He has truly touched a nerve abd that is how you know he is for real when the reaction is so polarized for and against.

The ONLY person I can see that Dutrow has going is YOU, Sammie. You're first in line for the Kool-Aid. Dutrow is what he is. Not anything more. An admitted compulsive-gambling-addicted loudmouth who happens to train horses for a living.

Were it not for this one horse--Brown--who has brought him to this stage, no one would give an absolute tinker's damn.

As many, many people have alluded, take the drugs from him, and other "supertrainers". Level the playing field.

Come back and tell everyone how good the man's man is then. And how big his stones are because he bets the farm everytime he steps on a racecourse.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Arrogance of Mike Tyson did not hurt boxing any. Millions paid $3O+ to see him fight in matches shorter than the KY Derby!!

[Marshall Bennett]

Dutrow's a monkey who would be cleaning stalls if it weren't for steroids and who, as good as Big Brown is, will get the TC only because of the horrible 3 yo talent this year.
In my opinion , Big Brown would have had the same chances at the TC in each of the previous 2 or 3 years as he does this year . Perhaps he would have been pushed further but who knows , it could have simply shown us how good he really is . I've never been a huge Dutrow fan , but I give him more credit than you . He wouldn't have been cleaning anyone's stall with or without steroids

[magwell]

No matter how much you bash him and no matter what happens in the Belmont,best to understand he will be a force for years to come, dont be so jealous of him and enjoy the ride .....:)

[borntoride]

BB is a wonderfully talented horse. I find it hard to get warm and fuzzy about the trainer and owners, though. The slick Wall Street guys managed to purchase a talented horse, which, in and of itself, is not grounds for great admiration. For Mr. Dutrow, his Preakness interview on NBC was all bleeps because, even on racing's grandest stage, he couldn't refrain form using the f-word in every sentence. Now I cuss a lot, too, but not when the cameras are rolling. His attacks on Mr. Servis are from waaaay out in left field. What is the point of this??? Answer: He must have had a bundle on Smarty Jones.

[PaceAdvantage]

If he was a 'mans man' like someone else in this thread mentioned, he would go behind the scenes and confront Servis to his face and tell him he's an idiot and screwed up Smarty.........a real man would look another man in the eye if he had something negative or critical to say and not air that out for the entire world to hear..............ESPECIALLY now that he appears to be a supertrainer because of one freaky horse he lucked into training.

Where was this guy a week, a month or a year after Smarty lost the TC? He had ample opportunity to call up the press and issue a statement about Servis bad training but he waits till now to call the guy out......years after the fact? That's bush league.If I'm mistaken, please correct me, but Dutrow did not go out of his way to bash Servis and Smarty's connections.

He was asked a question about them by a reporter during an interview or press conference, correct? You make it as if Dutrow called a press conference to specifically bash Servis and Smarty.

Dutrow was asked a question, and he answered it in the way only he can....

[The Hawk]

Sounds like a lot of people are rooting for the horse to win and for Dutrow to fall down the stairs on his way to the winner's circle.

Most arrogant players in other sports are not universally liked but they do draw attention to the game. We could use more ink, outside of the heat we get from breakdowns and drugs. I say, as much as I don't care for Dutrow, he's good for the game. He's at least getting the mainstream media away from focusing on Eight Belles, and for that we should thank him.

[Imriledup]

If I'm mistaken, please correct me, but Dutrow did not go out of his way to bash Servis and Smarty's connections.

He was asked a question about them by a reporter during an interview or press conference, correct? You make it as if Dutrow called a press conference to specifically bash Servis and Smarty.

Dutrow was asked a question, and he answered it in the way only he can....

Yeah, and the only way he can answer it is by chopping someone down? Also, why are reporters asking Dutrow about Smarty Jones? I mean, that has nothing at all to do with him or his horse.

Whether he went out of his way or not, he still took a swipe at him. He's messing with another man's livlihood which means you are messing with that man's ability to feed his family with his dumb opinion which may or may not be correct. How bad of a job did Servis do if his horse, with sprint pedigree, was an eighth of a mile away from winning the TC.

If he called out the jock and said he rode bad, i can live with that, but to call out the trainer is absurd.

[joanied]

Quote: by Joanied:

__________________
joanied :ThmbDown:

Great horseman....... I dont think so.

Was you ex around when he used to slice the frog on a horses feet before walking to the paddock for it's race? The theory being that the pain would make the horse pick up each hoof more quickly and run faster?
Ever hear about the blood on the floor in the stall he saddled his horses prior to race? I thought is was bull when I heard it.. so know what I did.....
I went to Johnny Campo jr. and asked if it was true......

He admitted it. :ThmbDown:




Really???:eek: Never heard that and never saw it, my ex wasn't just an excercise boy...he loved the horses and I know he'd never have gotten on any horse if he'd seen blood...and if it's true about John, guess I'll eat my words.....Campo:ThmbDown:

[joanied]

Dutrow is just fortunate to train big brown.
Hes not a hall of fame trainer. Big brown might put him there.

He should let his horse do the talking. FWIW


He never stops saying how amazed he is to have a horse like BB...the man knows he's a lucky SOB and is in awe of Big Brown.

[joanied]

If I'm mistaken, please correct me, but Dutrow did not go out of his way to bash Servis and Smarty's connections.

He was asked a question about them by a reporter during an interview or press conference, correct? You make it as if Dutrow called a press conference to specifically bash Servis and Smarty.

Dutrow was asked a question, and he answered it in the way only he can....

Good post PA....because...
WOW...I'm reading through all this about Dutrow bad mouthing Servis ect ect...and I'm thinking (:eek: ) to myself, now this man hasn't gone out and stood on a soapbox to bash other trainers or horses...HE WAS ASKED QUESTIONS IN INTERVIEWS and he answered them. Period.
:bang:

[Javagold]

i guess some of you including dutrow, never heard the saying, if you dont have something nice to say, dont say it......thus i have nothing to say about dutrow :ThmbDown:

[Imriledup]

i guess some of you including dutrow, never heard the saying, if you dont have something nice to say, dont say it......thus i have nothing to say about dutrow :ThmbDown:

Words hurt more than 'sticks and stones'. Broken bones heal, but the pain from words last forever. So, its important to really make sure you check what you say before you say it. Dutrow is just talking too much and really hasn't had too many nice things to say about anyone.

[HUSKER55]

Dutrow is a child starved for attention. How are you going to fix that? Get over it. By now, if there was anyway to disqualify him or BB it would have come to the surface. My biggest complain is that BB went from Maiden to TC winner in what, 5 races?


That man is going to get away with it.

husker55

[Shenanigans]

Good post PA....because...
WOW...I'm reading through all this about Dutrow bad mouthing Servis ect ect...and I'm thinking (:eek: ) to myself, now this man hasn't gone out and stood on a soapbox to bash other trainers or horses...HE WAS ASKED QUESTIONS IN INTERVIEWS and he answered them. Period.
:bang:

Instead of answering the question the way he did, he could have easily stated that he would have done things different but not elaborate on how. The man was one step away from calling Servis a moron.
How about the reply about other jockeys bothering his horse in the race? He states that they better not or they will be assisinated before they get back to the jocks room after the race??? What other trainer do you know of puts out a threat like that??? Yes, it was a threat. This idiot thinks he's Al Capone.:rolleyes:

[Shenanigans]

No matter how much you bash him and no matter what happens in the Belmont,best to understand he will be a force for years to come, dont be so jealous of him and enjoy the ride .....:)

You need to find another word, because not being a fan of Dutrow does not mean a person is jealous of him. Look up the meaning of the word. Like I stated, just because some of us choose not to lower our standards and be a fan of a low life, doesn't mean we're jealous.:rolleyes:

[Shenanigans]

Arrogance of Mike Tyson did not hurt boxing any. Millions paid $3O+ to see him fight in matches shorter than the KY Derby!!

When did boxing ever exude class????:lol: Tyson was expected to show his colors.

[ryesteve]

When did boxing ever exude class????Please don't shatter my illusions and tell me "Gentleman Jim" Corbett's nickname was sarcasm :D

[GARY Z]

Was you ex around when he used to slice the frog on a horses feet before walking to the paddock for it's race? The theory being that the pain would make the horse pick up each hoof more quickly and run faster?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial]Ever hear about the blood on the floor in the stall he saddled his horses prior to race? I thought is was bull when I heard it.. so know what I did.....[


Not for nothing, if you ever go,or decide to go to Belmont,
NYRA has installed a showcase which includes the various prestigous
trophies for races won by this charismatic trainer.

JC did quite well with limited stock, and was truly the idol
of the blue collar fans.

[Bruddah]

Good post PA....because...
WOW...I'm reading through all this about Dutrow bad mouthing Servis ect ect...and I'm thinking (:eek: ) to myself, now this man hasn't gone out and stood on a soapbox to bash other trainers or horses...HE WAS ASKED QUESTIONS IN INTERVIEWS and he answered them. Period.
:bang:

Let's see, if I am asked, it's okay to disparage another trainer because I would have used different tactics? But if I am not asked, then I keep my unfounded opinions to myself. Therefore, when asked, because you are a rascal character, you must be critical. Hmmmmm? How about, hey Dutrow, when was the last time you doped a horse for the win, or hey Dutrow , when was the last time you used. Come on now fella, I am asking and you must tell the truth. Not only because those are the litmus tests PA and Joanied have layed out for your honesty, but because that's the type of Guy (personality) you are. You know, you're one of those David Runyan type characters. Sorry, but that is a Crock of Sh*t.

The only reason to link Dutrow to the word Character, is his total lack thereof. Certainly, don't go looking for the definition of Integrity. :D

[john del riccio]

Zil-
I normally fight the feeling to become emotionally attached to a horse. Still fighting that feeling with Big Brown! This horse has actually "grown" on me.
Was wondering if you (or anyone else) could share what it is you don't like about this colt, other than his connections or the perceived "lack of competition"...?
In my eyes this horse has done everything asked of him in a very professional way. He reportedly is a very smart horse. In my eyes, again, he carries himself with class. He is alert to his surroundings and seems to understand his role in racing. By all reports, he wants to run. Sounds like he relishes it.
The accolades put upon this horse by other owners/trainers is something I do not believe I have ever seen in my lifetime. If I were an owner, this sounds like the one to own!
Those who do not like him...is it because he cost you money thru the windows? Does he not have the level of competition you wished he had?
I am just wondering.....

Donnie,

Yes, its bitter sweat. I said earlier that if anyone else trained thi shorse I would be a HUGE fan. And after reading about Navarone & his shady dealings,
it makes this turmoil that much greater.

John

[john del riccio]

Dutrow adds that NY tough guy zestiness to this final chapter of the Triple Crown. I have a Pletcher bobble head doll it has more character then Pletcher himself!

Brian,

Dutrow is anything but a NY tough guy...you aught to come to Brooklyn with me one day......

John

[mannyberrios]

I find Dutrow's comments refreshingly candid. I've had enough of the canned sports analogies and "team-talk" from Lukas and Pletcher over the years. Boring, boring, boring.
:ThmbUp: I agree,100%

[mannyberrios]

:ThmbUp: Trash talk is a part of sports. It happens in all sports. Why should racing sit out that kind of excitement? It makes for good copy.

You and others say that racing is dying for positives. I agree, but there have been many, many positives, and where have they gotten us? Did Nafzger/Genter bring about the second golden age of racing? Or how about Miller/Mellon? Cigar?

None of these positives brought about any lasting popularity or enhancement to the game. Racing is what it is, and it isn't going to die or be reborn based on any set of temporary negatives or positives. You would need real and lasting positives, and this game is anything but lasting. Our stars are fleeting....it is what it is...
Enjoy the moment while it's here, if you can.Once again I agree 100%. P.A., you are on a roll.

[joanied]

Was you ex around when he used to slice the frog on a horses feet before walking to the paddock for it's race? The theory being that the pain would make the horse pick up each hoof more quickly and run faster?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial]Ever hear about the blood on the floor in the stall he saddled his horses prior to race? I thought is was bull when I heard it.. so know what I did.....[


Not for nothing, if you ever go,or decide to go to Belmont,
NYRA has installed a showcase which includes the various prestigous
trophies for races won by this charismatic trainer.

JC did quite well with limited stock, and was truly the idol
of the blue collar fans.

:ThmbUp: Good post... the blue collars did love the man, and he was a good horseman, especially with the horses he had, and spending time at his barn, I never saw any indication of him doing these things Gary Z said he did...if his son really did admit to Gary Z that John put his horses through that, then I just don't know what to think:confused: .
Guess we'll never know for sure, since JCampo is gone.

[46zilzal]

After years and years of gait analysis in the human and equine, BOTH fall to the good limb (they keep weight off the bad one as much as possible for it is WEIGHT bearing that hurts).

[joanied]

Brian,

Dutrow is anything but a NY tough guy...you aught to come to Brooklyn with me one day......

John

Maybe Dutrow isn't a Brooklyn 'wise guy' type, but he's lived 'the life' and for getting himself out of it, I have to give him a "way to go"....
but, bet he'd do just fine in Brooklyn...
and I know because I was born :ThmbUp: and raised there...Bensonhurst section.

[joanied]

Let's see, if I am asked, it's okay to disparage another trainer because I would have used different tactics? But if I am not asked, then I keep my unfounded opinions to myself. Therefore, when asked, because you are a rascal character, you must be critical. Hmmmmm? How about, hey Dutrow, when was the last time you doped a horse for the win, or hey Dutrow , when was the last time you used. Come on now fella, I am asking and you must tell the truth. Not only because those are the litmus tests PA and Joanied have layed out for your honesty, but because that's the type of Guy (personality) you are. You know, you're one of those David Runyan type characters. Sorry, but that is a Crock of Sh*t.

The only reason to link Dutrow to the word Character, is his total lack thereof. Certainly, don't go looking for the definition of Integrity. :D

Ok, everyone is intitled to their opinion... and that's what we're all doing here...I have not laid out anything, Bruddah...nada...just gave my view of the man:faint: ...same as you.

:)

[Shenanigans]

Please don't shatter my illusions and tell me "Gentleman Jim" Corbett's nickname was sarcasm :D

Oh, you're going to go waaaaaaayyyy back to boxing at the turn of the century and compare boxing of today to it???? Hell, you can't even compare the 1930's boxing to todays. Sure, Max Baer was an azz, but still, scum like him still walked above the Tysons' types of today.:rolleyes:

[ryesteve]

the Tysons' types of today.:rolleyes:
Don't you mean the Tyson types of 20 years ago? I don't know anyone who can name 3 heavyweights who are fighting "today"

[PaceAdvantage]

He states that they better not or they will be assisinated before they get back to the jocks room after the race??? What other trainer do you know of puts out a threat like that??? Yes, it was a threat. This idiot thinks he's Al Capone.:rolleyes:I took it to mean the fans would find them and jump them in the parking lot after the races...we want to see a fair race and we want to see a TC winner! But if you took it to mean Dutrow is going to climb into the press box with a sniper rifle, well, I guess that's one way to look at it....

[PaceAdvantage]

How about, hey Dutrow, when was the last time you doped a horse for the win, or hey Dutrow , when was the last time you used. Come on now fella, I am asking and you must tell the truth.I'm getting tired of defending the guy, cause I was never and still am not a fan of his (but I DO appreciate his dramatically different style of going about his business), but I believe he HAS been just as candid when asked about his past screw ups, both on and off the field.

[NY BRED]

Joan:

I screwed up with the quote, that wasn't my quote, but did state
I was a fan of JC.


By any chance were you originally from Bensonhurst?

[jma]

Let's see, if I am asked, it's okay to disparage another trainer because I would have used different tactics? But if I am not asked, then I keep my unfounded opinions to myself. Therefore, when asked, because you are a rascal character, you must be critical. Hmmmmm? How about, hey Dutrow, when was the last time you doped a horse for the win, or hey Dutrow , when was the last time you used. Come on now fella, I am asking and you must tell the truth. Not only because those are the litmus tests PA and Joanied have layed out for your honesty, but because that's the type of Guy (personality) you are. You know, you're one of those David Runyan type characters. Sorry, but that is a Crock of Sh*t.

The only reason to link Dutrow to the word Character, is his total lack thereof. Certainly, don't go looking for the definition of Integrity. :D

DAVID Runyan? Seriously?

[jma]

Oh, you're going to go waaaaaaayyyy back to boxing at the turn of the century and compare boxing of today to it???? Hell, you can't even compare the 1930's boxing to todays. Sure, Max Baer was an azz, but still, scum like him still walked above the Tysons' types of today.:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic about boxing...and Max Baer? What, did you watch "Cinderella Man" too many times?

[samyn on the green]

Dutrow was at it again yesterday shooting his mouth off to the NY Post. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/06012008/sports/serbys_sunday_qa_with____113500.htm?page=0)Why must he speak like this? If you think your horse is the best you are supposed to lie about it and say "i hope the best horse will win" or I think we may have a shot". Why does Dutrow have to be so darn different? Did he skip the trainer-speak class?

In our business class in university they showed us how to think and what to say within the confines of society. What makes this Dutrow think and say things so differently? In the future to avoid offending people like Dutrow does, all trainers should be produced like they produce all the consumer products these days. Trainers should be mass produced to say and think the same way and trained not to offend anyone by speaking their mind. Like they teach them in American business school the trainer production factories should be outsourced to the third world, somewhere like China where the labor is cheap and all the people look alike, talk alike and work alike. Because we do not want our trainers to have personality, speak the truth, offend anyone or cost too much to produce. :cool:

[Pace Cap'n]

Dutrow was on a plane and turned to his seatmate....

"So, where you from?"

"Where I'm from they taught us not to end a sentence with a preposition."

"So, where you from, azzhole?"

[joanied]

Joan:

I screwed up with the quote, that wasn't my quote, but did state
I was a fan of JC.


By any chance were you originally from Bensonhurst?

Campo had so many fans...and I am still undecided about what was mentioned here that he did to his horses...

yeah, Bensonhurst was my 'stomping ground'. We lived on Bay 38th Street between 86th Street (where the 'el' is) and Benson Ave. My grandfather built the house we were raised in. Spent many summer days at Coney Island. My dad had a paint & wallpaper business on Coney Island Ave.
I miss Brooklyn, guess I always will....great memories...Italian ices, pizza, Calzones....yummy!!! We had a huge 'block party' when the Brooklyn Dodgers won the World Series...
When my parents moved to Elmont, I discovered Belmont Park and it was all over but the shoutin'!!!!
Yadda,yadda,yadda!!!
:)

[slewis]

Was you ex around when he used to slice the frog on a horses feet before walking to the paddock for it's race? The theory being that the pain would make the horse pick up each hoof more quickly and run faster?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial]Ever hear about the blood on the floor in the stall he saddled his horses prior to race? I thought is was bull when I heard it.. so know what I did.....[


Not for nothing, if you ever go,or decide to go to Belmont,
NYRA has installed a showcase which includes the various prestigous
trophies for races won by this charismatic trainer.

JC did quite well with limited stock, and was truly the idol
of the blue collar fans.

So it sounds to me as if you approve of the frog cutting???
If your answer is "no", that's ok. I understand many "heros" in our society are smoke and mirrors and tricks.
Just dont anyone on this forum doubt the truth in what I posted regaring the frog cutting ... cause it's FACT.

[Moyers Pond]

I don't know how a guy who has been around so long could make such stupid comments. The horse is going 12f for the first time and there is a horse in there that seems to have the pedigree to run 12f and he is talented. Big Brown could be a 10f horse maybe even 11f but he still has to prove like all of them that he can run 12f.

[GlenninOhio]

Dutrow was at it again yesterday shooting his mouth off to the NY Post. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/06012008/sports/serbys_sunday_qa_with____113500.htm?page=0)Why must he speak like this? If you think your horse is the best you are supposed to lie about it and say "i hope the best horse will win" or I think we may have a shot". Why does Dutrow have to be so darn different? Did he skip the trainer-speak class?

In our business class in university they showed us how to think and what to say within the confines of society. What makes this Dutrow think and say things so differently? In the future to avoid offending people like Dutrow does, all trainers should be produced like they produce all the consumer products these days. Trainers should be mass produced to say and think the same way and trained not to offend anyone by speaking their mind. Like they teach them in American business school the trainer production factories should be outsourced to the third world, somewhere like China where the labor is cheap and all the people look alike, talk alike and work alike. Because we do not want our trainers to have personality, speak the truth, offend anyone or cost too much to produce. :cool:

In public, you show modesty about your own horse and you show respect for other horses and other trainers because you know how incredibly chancy this business is, you know you can be king of the world one day and living out of a tack room the next day, and you have a little of the "There but for the grace of God go I" in you.

Say what you want in private - be as brass-balled as you like - but don't trash talk others in the business in public without the slightest provocation. And not just because you're going to look like the biggest freaking moron on the face of the earth if your horse (sired by a sprinter) doesn't hit the board on Saturday after running 12 furlongs.

[PaceAdvantage]

BB is bred to go 12 panels:

For starters, while it is true that Big Brown's sire, Boundary, never won beyond sprint distances, it is also true that he was never tried farther. A son of Danzig, Boundary had offset knees that limited his durability. He won six of eight starts, including the grade III A Phenomenon and Roseben Handicaps, and might perhaps have stayed farther had he been better able to withstand training.
Big Brown is the second foal of his dam, Mien, a winner at 8.5 furlongs. She is by Nureyev out of Miasma, a winner at nine furlongs. Miasma, in turn, is by Lear Fan, whose progeny included some good stayers, out of Syrian Circle, a Damascus half-sister to 1997 champion older female Hidden Lake.

Boundary and Mien are closely related, for Boundary is by a son of Northern Dancer out of a mare bred on a Damascus/Round Table cross, while Mien is by a son of Northern Dancer out of the daughter of a mare bred on a Damascus/Round Table cross. Neither Damascus nor Round Table require much introduction as stayers or sources of stamina, and this inbreeding in Big Brown's pedigree may be the key to his staying ability.

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/bio_BigBrown.asp

[DeanT]

In public, you show modesty about your own horse and you show respect for other horses and other trainers because you know how incredibly chancy this business is, you know you can be king of the world one day and living out of a tack room the next day, and you have a little of the "There but for the grace of God go I" in you.


That is so very true. Excellent post.

[joanied]

Originally Posted by samyn on the green
Dutrow was at it again yesterday shooting his mouth off to the NY Post. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/06012008/sports/serbys_sunday_qa_with____113500.htm?page=0)Why must he speak like this? If you think your horse is the best you are supposed to lie about it and say "i hope the best horse will win" or I think we may have a shot". Why does Dutrow have to be so darn different? Did he skip the trainer-speak class?

In our business class in university they showed us how to think and what to say within the confines of society. What makes this Dutrow think and say things so differently? In the future to avoid offending people like Dutrow does, all trainers should be produced like they produce all the consumer products these days. Trainers should be mass produced to say and think the same way and trained not to offend anyone by speaking their mind. Like they teach them in American business school the trainer production factories should be outsourced to the third world, somewhere like China where the labor is cheap and all the people look alike, talk alike and work alike. Because we do not want our trainers to have personality, speak the truth, offend anyone or cost too much to produce. :cool:

Thanks for the link to the interview...I didn't read anything in that interview that would seem out of line... Dutrow answered the questions honestly and straight forward... I see nothing wrong with what he had to say.

[joanied]

BB is bred to go 12 panels:



http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/bio_BigBrown.asp

I'm with you PA...BB can get the distance...no problem. There is a very good article in the May 24th issue of the Blood Horse magazine...about Dr. Gary Knapp and Equix. (I looked for it on the web site, but coudln't find it to add a link here)...basically it tells how BB shapes by the numbers...it basicaaly compares the biometrics of a given stallion with a given mare...in this case, Boundary & Mein. When you look at the BME; biomechanical efficiency score, BB rates very high.
They evaluated BB as a yearling, 2 yr. old and again at 72 months old, his BME ratings never dipped below 98+, and it states that it is predicited that BB's biomecahnical efficiency will peak in October (just in time for the Breedrs Cup!!!).
I wish I could show the entire article...fasinating stuff...but, bottom line is that Big Brown has everything going for him to get the Belmont distance...
and in MY opinion, he also has within him, the 'holy grail'...a large heart.
:jump:

[GlenninOhio]

BB is bred to go 12 panels:



http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/bio_BigBrown.asp


Ok, then please allow me in the face of all this dazzling "breeding science" to amend my previous post to remove all reference to BB's breeding (though mark my words the Boundary thing will be used as an explanation if BB fades down the lane).

Amended post:

In public, you show modesty about your own horse and you show respect for other horses and other trainers because you know how incredibly chancy this business is, you know you can be king of the world one day and living out of a tack room the next day, and you have a little of the "There but for the grace of God go I" in you.

Say what you want in private - be as brass-balled as you like - but don't trash talk others in the business in public without the slightest provocation. And not just because you're going to look like the biggest freaking moron on the face of the earth if your horse doesn't hit the board on Saturday.

[Cratos]

Big Brown is a nice horse and a part of me really wants to see a triple crown winner in my lifetime. The way he has won his races is magnificient.

I'm 31 and don't remember Affirmed as I was only 2 and it would be amazing to finally see it.

But I'll be honest - I'm rooting against him because of his arrogant trainer.

First of all the comments after the Preakness regarding Casino Drive and Godzilla in the winner circle were completely unnecessary. Second of all, to make comments regarding Smarty Jones connections (regardless of whether they are true or not) is low class. Finally to criticize Prado regarding his ride in the Preakness was completely ridiculous.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/05/29/2008-05-29_trainer_rick_dutrow_opens_mouth_sounds_l-2.html

This trainer and his medicine bag are not good for the game. I really don't want this horse to win. It's unbelievable that I feel this way, but if karma does exist, Dutrow will not be the trainer of a triple crown winner.

What did Dutrow say that was demeaning of Smarty Jones or his connections?

In my humble opinion, nothing.

[Donnie]

Joan-
is this the article?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/talkinhorses/GK052908.asp

[joanied]

Joan-
is this the article?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/talkinhorses/GK052908.asp

Nope...but it's a good 'talkin horses' Q&A. The one in the magazine was excellent...I thought they had all articles from each weeks mag on the web site, but maybe not.
GGGRRR!!

[Donnie]

do you know which week that article was in?

[Rackon]

I'm with you PA...BB can get the distance...no problem. There is a very good article in the May 24th issue of the Blood Horse magazine...about Dr. Gary Knapp and Equix. (I looked for it on the web site, but coudln't find it to add a link here)...basically it tells how BB shapes by the numbers...it basicaaly compares the biometrics of a given stallion with a given mare...in this case, Boundary & Mein. When you look at the BME; biomechanical efficiency score, BB rates very high.
They evaluated BB as a yearling, 2 yr. old and again at 72 months old, his BME ratings never dipped below 98+, and it states that it is predicited that BB's biomecahnical efficiency will peak in October (just in time for the Breedrs Cup!!!).
I wish I could show the entire article...fasinating stuff...but, bottom line is that Big Brown has everything going for him to get the Belmont distance...
and in MY opinion, he also has within him, the 'holy grail'...a large heart.
:jump:

Joanie, that's trasnscript of Talking Horses with Knapp is the only article about this that I've seen at BH. If there's another interview with Knapp I'd love to see it.

Knapp also talks about using heart score in combination with biometrics to analyze potential ability. Knapp/Equix uses heart score in both projecting potential matings as well as evaluating young racing prospects at several points as you describe above. (Non breeders just freakin' hate this angle, you have been warned.) :bang:

[Shenanigans]

I took it to mean the fans would find them and jump them in the parking lot after the races...we want to see a fair race and we want to see a TC winner! But if you took it to mean Dutrow is going to climb into the press box with a sniper rifle, well, I guess that's one way to look at it....

I didn't take it to mean that at all. I don't remember ever hearing about the jocks getting jumped after the 2004 Belmont, and Smarty Jones had a WAY bigger fan following that BB.
Dutrow meant it as a "wise-guy, mafioso" threat. You don't see it that way, oh well.

[Shenanigans]

In public, you show modesty about your own horse and you show respect for other horses and other trainers because you know how incredibly chancy this business is, you know you can be king of the world one day and living out of a tack room the next day, and you have a little of the "There but for the grace of God go I" in you.

Say what you want in private - be as brass-balled as you like - but don't trash talk others in the business in public without the slightest provocation. And not just because you're going to look like the biggest freaking moron on the face of the earth if your horse (sired by a sprinter) doesn't hit the board on Saturday after running 12 furlongs.

Great post. It's all true.:ThmbUp:

[samyn on the green]

We all know that the game is cruel as players in this game. Luck can change on a dime and you can go from king to begger is no time flat. This is what makes Dutrow's comments so entertaining, he is looking at the monster of racing luck right in the eyeballs and he is laughing at it.

If I have a live pick 4 I do not even like to mention it, I keep it a secret, but this guy has the stones to say he can not lose. It is very entertaining and generous of him for him to take these risks in public, everyone should enjoy the show. Win or lose it going to be hard no to check out Dutrow's reaction. In public, you show modesty about your own horse and you show respect for other horses and other trainers because you know how incredibly chancy this business is, you know you can be king of the world one day and living out of a tack room the next day, and you have a little of the "There but for the grace of God go I" in you.

Say what you want in private - be as brass-balled as you like - but don't trash talk others in the business in public without the slightest provocation. And not just because you're going to look like the biggest freaking moron on the face of the earth if your horse (sired by a sprinter) doesn't hit the board on Saturday after running 12 furlongs.

[asH]

Joan-
is this the article?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/talkinhorses/GK052908.asp

For a man in the business for 35 years it is most disturbing that Knapp skirts issues about BB’s foot problems as related to inheritance…I understand he’s protecting his interest, but Knapp’s other answers are so meticulously comprehensive, it leaves one in question.

Allentown, NJ:Are Big Brown's hoof problems due to inbreeding?

Knapp:
Since I am not a geneticist, answering your question would be a matter of opinion and we probably need more science in the breeding of thoroughbreds and less opinions. That being said, your question is a good one and ought to be explored with scientists who can provide solid, reliable information

Raleigh, NC:Can Big Brown feet and quarter crack issues be inherited to his descendants? What is your opinion on the 2-year-old in training sales blowouts in 10 and change? Is it too much too soon?

Knapp:
Inheritance of specific characteristics from one generation to the next is something best addressed by geneticists and even then we have to keep in mind that what we are talking about is probabilities. And even when we talk about these probabilities, perhaps what we are talking about is genetic dispositions not certainties by any means. After all, when Big Brown enters the breeding shed, he won't be there alone.

[WJ47]

I'm not terribly impressed with Dutrow's badmouthing of other trainers, jocks and horses. However, my father always told me that there is a difference between thinking you are good and knowing you are good. So maybe he feels he's earned the right to brag so much. :)

For fun, I watched all the near Crown misses on Youtube. I can't believe that anyone would be so confident after watching the heartbreaking defeats of Smarty Jones and Real Quiet. I'd be afraid that I'd be struck down by the God of racing!

I think that Big Brown will probably prevail and win the crown. But then again, the shock of my life was when Birdstone passed Smarty in the stretch. I still can't believe it and its been 4 years!

[Murph]

"In addition to the patch, Big Brown will be running on anabolic steroids."
Jun 3, 4:39 AM (ET)
By BETH HARRIS - (http://sports.excite.com/news/06032008/v7937.html)NEW YORK (AP) (http://sports.excite.com/news/06032008/v7937.html)

Interesting article. The quetions are mounting. The pressure is building up and the BB team is starting to wiggle a bit. Big Brown will likely go off at 2-5 or less in spite of what's being published. 12 furlongs, hopped on "juice", qtr. crack, 6 races lifetime, undefeated runners and so much more drama.

I find this situation extremely interesting because normally, sane people would consider these points very carefully before placing a significant wager on the question at those odds. Handicappers are another matter. We are left to pick our poison come Saturday.

Murph

[garyscpa]

[QUOTE=asH]For a man in the business for 35 years it is most disturbing that Knapp skirts issues about BB’s foot problems as related to inheritance…I understand he’s protecting his interest, but Knapp’s other answers are so meticulously comprehensive, it leaves one in question.

He hasn't been in the business 35 years. He was inspired to get into the business 35 years ago.

[asH]

[QUOTE=asH]For a man in the business for 35 years it is most disturbing that Knapp skirts issues about BB’s foot problems as related to inheritance…I understand he’s protecting his interest, but Knapp’s other answers are so meticulously comprehensive, it leaves one in question.

He hasn't been in the business 35 years. He was inspired to get into the business 35 years ago.

thanks for the correction

[joanied]

do you know which week that article was in?

May 24th (Preakness issue)
Author- Amanda H Duckworth
Title- Dr. Gary Knapp's EQUIX
page 2742-2743

[joanied]

Joanie, that's trasnscript of Talking Horses with Knapp is the only article about this that I've seen at BH. If there's another interview with Knapp I'd love to see it.

Knapp also talks about using heart score in combination with biometrics to analyze potential ability. Knapp/Equix uses heart score in both projecting potential matings as well as evaluating young racing prospects at several points as you describe above. (Non breeders just freakin' hate this angle, you have been warned.) :bang:

Hey guys...
Donnie, I replied :) to you with that info.

Rackon, I cannot:mad: find this article at the Blood Horse web site...I did a search several different ways, using the author's name, the article title, date ect ect. and it just seems :bang: they may not add every article they print on the site.

I figured that Dr. Knapp must use heart scores in his evaluations, although this particular article doesn't mention that...as I said, I assume that BB does have a large heart, and lungs to go with it. (he put in a brilliant work yesterday).

May 24th magazine (Preakness issue)
Author -- Amanda H Duckworth
Title -- Dr. Gary Knapp's EQUIX

If you get lucky in a search, please do post it here... I give up:faint:

[joanied]

"In addition to the patch, Big Brown will be running on anabolic steroids."
Jun 3, 4:39 AM (ET)
By BETH HARRIS - (http://sports.excite.com/news/06032008/v7937.html)NEW YORK (AP) (http://sports.excite.com/news/06032008/v7937.html)

Interesting article. The quetions are mounting. The pressure is building up and the BB team is starting to wiggle a bit. Big Brown will likely go off at 2-5 or less in spite of what's being published. 12 furlongs, hopped on "juice", qtr. crack, 6 races lifetime, undefeated runners and so much more drama.

I find this situation extremely interesting because normally, sane people would consider these points very carefully before placing a significant wager on the question at those odds. Handicappers are another matter. We are left to pick our poison come Saturday.

Murph

Here is a paragraph I copied from the above article:

" Besides Dutrow, The New York Times said trainer Barclay Tagg plans to run Tale of Ekati on steroids Saturday. Many therapeutic medications are administered to horses and as long as they clear their systems by racetime, they aren't reported or detected."

Why :confused: isn't anyone screaming about Barclay Tagg using the same Winstrol as Dutrow???

[Shenanigans]

"In addition to the patch, Big Brown will be running on anabolic steroids."
Jun 3, 4:39 AM (ET)
By BETH HARRIS - (http://sports.excite.com/news/06032008/v7937.html)NEW YORK (AP) (http://sports.excite.com/news/06032008/v7937.html)



As will the rest of the field.....

[GlenninOhio]

Here is a paragraph I copied from the above article:

" Besides Dutrow, The New York Times said trainer Barclay Tagg plans to run Tale of Ekati on steroids Saturday. Many therapeutic medications are administered to horses and as long as they clear their systems by racetime, they aren't reported or detected."

Why :confused: isn't anyone screaming about Barclay Tagg using the same Winstrol as Dutrow???

Simple. Because if you're viewed as a legitimate, stand-up horseman who has character and class, people tend not to get worked up when you do something that raises an eyebrow but is within the rules. And when you're viewed as a no-class individual and you seem to be doing your very best right up until Saturday's post time to live up to that reputation, everything you do and say is doubted and questioned.

Does this really surprise you as much as your little yellow emoticon indicates?

[PaceAdvantage]

As will the rest of the field.....Excellent point, and one that is completely lost, not just by the mainstream media that does not follow racing closely, but also by EVERYDAY FANS of the game, strangely enough!

This misconception (that Big Brown is a rarity when it comes to racing on steroids) may do far greater harm to the game than PETA or Eight Belles' death ever could....

[GlenninOhio]

Excellent point, and one that is completely lost, not just by the mainstream media that does not follow racing closely, but also by EVERYDAY FANS of the game, strangely enough!

This misconception (that Big Brown is a rarity when it comes to racing on steroids) may do far greater harm to the game than PETA or Eight Belles' death ever could....


I'm not certain who brought BB's Winstrol regimen to the attention of the media in the first place, but it may well have been Rick ("he says what's on his mind and that's a refreshing thing for horse racing") Dutrow.

The fact that having a triple crown winner could even conceivably "do harm to the game" is a testimony to the toxicity of this guy.

[joanied]

Simple. Because if you're viewed as a legitimate, stand-up horseman who has character and class, people tend not to get worked up when you do something that raises an eyebrow but is within the rules. And when you're viewed as a no-class individual and you seem to be doing your very best right up until Saturday's post time to live up to that reputation, everything you do and say is doubted and questioned.

Does this really surprise you as much as your little yellow emoticon indicates?

Does what surprise me...the fact that your 'stand up' horsemen don't get 'press' for using the same steroid meds as Dutrow does? Oh yeah, you said 'within the rules'.... and none of those legit trainers are bending or breaking the rules...give me a break!!
:)

[GlenninOhio]

Does what surprise me...the fact that your 'stand up' horsemen don't get 'press' for using the same steroid meds as Dutrow does? Oh yeah, you said 'within the rules'.... and none of those legit trainers are bending or breaking the rules...give me a break!!
:)

Not sure what your point is here, unless it's "everybody cheats" and I don't know where that takes us.

In your previous post you expressed amazement that Dutrow takes heat while Tagg does not for (presumably) administering the same meds to their horses.

I think I adequately explained why this was the case, and that explanation stands.

[samyn on the green]

The basic facts of human nature is that people prefer to be lied to and manipulated. As much as they will not admit it or fail to understand themselves, people prefer to be stroked than to hear the truth. The big problem with Dutrow is that he tells the truth and people do like or accept that. They want the half lies and trainer speak that they have been accustomed to.

Dutrow does not fit in to the childlike projection that many people harbor where all those they like are supposedly honest all the time and have the best in their intentions at all times. That is why the majority of the backstretch gets a pass for the winstrol use, yet the only trainer with the decency to be honest about it is the most hated. They actually prefer those that lie about to to those that tell the truth. Like most of my girlfriends over the years the public demands to be lied to and can not handle being treated like an adult.

[sandpit]

Samyn: In a long string of comments on this subject, yours is far and away the best assessment of the subject. Thank you.:jump:

[joanied]

Not sure what your point is here, unless it's "everybody cheats" and I don't know where that takes us.

In your previous post you expressed amazement that Dutrow takes heat while Tagg does not for (presumably) administering the same meds to their horses.

I think I adequately explained why this was the case, and that explanation stands.

In the first place, all I did was post a quote from the NY Times that Barclay will run Tale of Ekati on steroids...
and yes, I am surprised that not one word is mentioned about it ( just so you know, I'm a huge Tagg fan)...or the fact that with the exception of Casino Drive, it was reported that ALL the horses will be on steriods...I assume it's Winstrol.
It was simply to point out that all the flac is hitting Dutrow and not any of the other trainers.

Your explanation as to why is fine, you are sure entitled to it, and it's true that Dutrow admits to using Winstrol... but it would sort of level the playing field if the other trainers were asked if they use it...would they be as honest as he is about it?

The point is, he ain't the only one using it...he's just the only one honest enough to admit it.

OH...there is no 'presumption' that Barclay will run Tale of Ekati on steroid...it's in the story from the Times...
and...I certainly don't beleive they are ALL cheaters.

[joanied]

The basic facts of human nature is that people prefer to be lied to and manipulated. As much as they will not admit it or fail to understand themselves, people prefer to be stroked than to hear the truth. The big problem with Dutrow is that he tells the truth and people do like or accept that. They want the half lies and trainer speak that they have been accustomed to.

Dutrow does not fit in to the childlike projection that many people harbor where all those they like are supposedly honest all the time and have the best in their intentions at all times. That is why the majority of the backstretch gets a pass for the winstrol use, yet the only trainer with the decency to be honest about it is the most hated. They actually prefer those that lie about to to those that tell the truth. Like most of my girlfriends over the years the public demands to be lied to and can not handle being treated like an adult.

Perfect:ThmbUp:

[NYPlayer]

I'm not terribly impressed with Dutrow's badmouthing of other trainers, jocks and horses. However, my father always told me that there is a difference between thinking you are good and knowing you are good. So maybe he feels he's earned the right to brag so much. :)

For fun, I watched all the near Crown misses on Youtube. I can't believe that anyone would be so confident after watching the heartbreaking defeats of Smarty Jones and Real Quiet....

For anyone who thinks his bragging is bad now, I wonder what he'll be like if the horse actually wins this thing. Seems to me that in the afterglow of a huge Derby and Preakness blowout, and now standing on the precipice of racing immortality, he's just doing what he's always done - living it up. Win or lose on Saturday, he's now in the limelight and nothing can take that away from him.

...except if he's busted for drugs or something.

[Murph]

In the first place, all I did was post a quote from the NY Times that Barclay will run Tale of Ekati on steroids...
and yes, I am surprised that not one word is mentioned about it ( just so you know, I'm a huge Tagg fan)...or the fact that with the exception of Casino Drive, it was reported that ALL the horses will be on steriods...I assume it's Winstrol.
---- Clip Center -----
OH...there is no 'presumption' that Barclay will run Tale of Ekati on steroid...it's in the story from the Times...
and...I certainly don't beleive they are ALL cheaters.Where is it reported that all runners in the Belmomt field will run under the influence of steroids? I would like to see a link to that story. It is not in the link/story that I posted and that from where you posted a quote back in response.

BTW - you kind of missed my point in that post. Are you betting that BB will win the race? How much are you willing to risk in that proposition?

Murph

[joanied]

Where is it reported that all runners in the Belmomt field will run under the influence of steroids? I would like to see a link to that story. It is not in the link/story that I posted and that from where you posted a quote back in response.

BTW - you kind of missed my point in that post. Are you betting that BB will win the race? How much are you willing to risk in that proposition?

Murph

Murph,
I wouldn't have said that about all the trainers running in the Belmont (except CD) using steriods (and I'm sure it was Winstrol) unless I'd read it...and I did read it someplace, and cannot for the life of me remember where...I've been reading so many articles on the Belmont and all the stuff that surrounds it, I just can't recall where :mad: But as time allows, I'll see if I can find the darn thing. That'll teach me...shoulda put a link up or, hey, maybe it was in a magazine...geeze:bang:

But, regarding your missed point in your post...yep, I am betting that BB will win...but I can't risk anything on it because there isn't anyplace to bet here and I don't have any betting accounts set up (can't really afford it)...I'm affraid my days of placing bets ended when I moved to Wyoming!!
So, let's say I'd risk being called a fool;) by putting everything I have (emotionally) on the line....Big Brown wins.
OK??
:)

[Murph]

As will the rest of the field.....Could this be where we first read that line? Looks like I may have asked the right question of the wrong poster! I hope your heart is on a short sleeve shirt this afternoon, kid. Keep it close.

Shenanigans, could you post a link to the reporter or media entity that's telling us that ALL runners will be "juiced" for the 2008 running of The Belmont Stakes?

[PaceAdvantage]

Shenanigans, could you post a link to the reporter or media entity that's telling us that ALL runners will be "juiced" for the 2008 running of The Belmont Stakes?2008? LOL

Let's read about the history of steroids and then come to the conclusion that they have been a part of the Belmont Stakes since at least the early 70s.....

In the following years, little pink Dianabol tablets found their way into many weightlifter´s training program, fast forward a few years, and in the early 1960s, there was a clear gap between Ziegler´s weightlifters and the rest of the country, and much less of one between them and the Soviets. It was also in the 1960´s that another anabolic steroid had been developed and used to treat short stature in children with Turner Disease syndrome (13)
At this time, physicians around the United States began to take notice of steroids, and numerous studies were performed on athletes taking them, in an effort to stem the tide of athletes attempting to obtain steroids for use in sports. The early studies on steroids clearly showed that anabolic steroids (http://www.steroid.com/main.php) offered no athletic benefit whatsoever, but in retrospect can be said to have several design flaws. The first issue with those studies, and the most glaring one was that the doses were usually very low, too low to really produce much of an effect at all. In addition, it was neither common for these studies to not be double blind nor to be randomized. A double blind study is one where neither the scientists nor the subjects of the study know if they are getting a real medication or a placebo. A randomized study is where the real medicine is randomly dispersed throughout the test group. Finally, in those early studies, nutrition and exercise was not really controlled or standardized. Not long after those flawed studies were concluded, the Physicians Desk Reference boldly (and wrongly) claimed that anabolic steroids were not useful in enhancing athletic performance. Despite this, in 1967, the International Olympic Council banned the use of anabolic steroids and by the mid 1970´s most major sporting organizations had also banned them.

Yeah, as if trainers in the 70s (and perhaps earlier) weren't juicing their horses with a substance that could make them stronger and faster in record time....as if trainers weren't known to take any edge they could get....especially when nobody was testing for them, and they weren't technically illegal.....

Hey, here's a thought....why do you think we had so many triple crown winners during the 70s? Maybe it had to do with the fact that only a handful of trainers were juicing during the 70s...the so-called "early adopters"...but, as the practice became more widespread (until today, where 95% of the trainers are using steroids, according to trainer "Magic" Mike Dickinson) the playing field evened out, and presto....no more triple crown winners....

Yeah, it's a stretch, but it's still an interesting theory, and one I'm surprised has not been floated about before to explain that 70s triple crown run....

Link to the source of the above quote:

http://www.steroid.com/main.php

[Shenanigans]

Could this be where we first read that line? Looks like I may have asked the right question of the wrong poster! I hope your heart is on a short sleeve shirt this afternoon, kid. Keep it close.

Shenanigans, could you post a link to the reporter or media entity that's telling us that ALL runners will be "juiced" for the 2008 running of The Belmont Stakes?

According to the NYRA rules, steroids are not considered "juice", however, if you are implying that I am implying that all Belmont starters are on steroids, you are right. Perhaps Casino isn't, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was. If you choose as to be so naive as not to believe the steroid issue, that is your choice. There is only one trainer I have ever worked for that did not believe in the use of steroids.
Understand, steroids is a widely used drug among most and many trainers. There are not too many trainers out there that don't want to keep the "playing field even".

[NoDayJob]

The very best of luck to both horse and trainer--- may the T.C. be theirs on Saturday, June 7th at 6:45 E.T.

[Murph]

According to the NYRA rules, steroids are not considered "juice", however, if you are implying that I am implying that all Belmont starters are on steroids, you are right. Perhaps Casino isn't, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was. If you choose as to be so naive as not to believe the steroid issue, that is your choice. There is only one trainer I have ever worked for that did not believe in the use of steroids.
Understand, steroids is a widely used drug among most and many trainers. There are not too many trainers out there that don't want to keep the "playing field even".Well gosh, now I don't know who to believe, you or the NY Times.

[joanied]

I'm glued to the Tv, commercial on now... Just a note that you guys may already know...BB hasn'r had a shot of Winstrol since before the Derby...he did not get it in May.
In a great interview on HRTV's "Legends' series, Dutrow said on the advice of Bobby Frankle, he stopped giving his horses their 'vitamin shake'.

Commercial over...I'm outta here!!

[overthehill]

its highly unlikely me that BB can lose this race. I think it would be the greatest upset since secretariat lost the wood.

[Living Flame]

Yeah, I've even find myself cheering for him,now. It's still going to be tough, but he's a special horse.

I just never thought I'd ever see a Triple Corwn winner!:jump:

[Shenanigans]

As always, class eventually prevails. I rest my case.:jump:

[Living Flame]

Poor Big Brown. I'm sad i'll never get to see him run. :bang:

Glad to see Dutrow finally get his butt whipped, though. He had it coming, but I doubt it'll teach him anything.

It's kind of eerie that Zito is the one who got it. Yes, a true class act beat Dutrow, and a direct decendent of August Belmont's Man O War won the race. Geez, you couldn't write a better story! Funny how that happens in racing.:faint:

[PaceAdvantage]

Now we can go back to the same ol' boring "trainer speak" filled with overused cliches and outright baloney. Wake me when (IF) it gets exciting again....:sleeping:

[NYPlayer]

...Glad to see Dutrow finally get his butt whipped, though. He had it coming, but I doubt it'll teach him anything...

Well, Dutrow spent three weeks as a star right alongside esteemed company such as Bob Baffert, Barclay Tagg, and John Servis: the trainers with horses in the past decade that might have been superstars. It seems to me he thoroughly enjoyed the attention. I don't think he has too many regrets, except of course, that Big Brown didn't win the crown. Anyway, he already has his excuse - hoof problems.

[tribecaagent]

Now we can go back to the same ol' boring "trainer speak" filled with overused cliches and outright baloney. Wake me when (IF) it gets exciting again....:sleeping:

Pace, I'm gonna disagree with you.

When you train a horse that wins the Kentucky Derby & Preakness with the style this horse did, you don't knock your competition by saying this is a sub-par group. It undermines your own horse's accomplishments. That's for the media to judge. That's just poor taste.

When you train a horse that's going to be an overwhelming favorite in a classic race, you don't tell the press that the horse from Japan should scratch because he has no shot. Welcome the horse and his connections to New York, then continue on your mission. That's just poor taste.

When you train a nice horse that looks real strong to WIN the Triple Crown, DON'T start talking about running against the reigning "Horse of the Year" (and those connections should be scared also), BEFORE you win the Triple Crown. That's presumptuous and tickles the racing GOD's.

While I do agree with you that most trainers speak with "overused cliches", occasionally we see some colorful characters. I'm sure you remember the old Wayne Lukas vs. Woody Stephens words of war. Certainly not boring. How about Bobby Baffert? Boring? Boy, do I miss Wayne.

[DeanT]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3431608&sportCat=horse

Someone asked trainer David Carroll, whose Denis of Cork finished second, whether he felt bad about helping spoil a Triple Crown. "No, I don't," Carroll said. "Not one little bit. There's a right way and a wrong way. You win with class and you lose with class. "Basically what [Dutrow] has been saying is, [Denis of Cork] is a P.O.S. And he isn't. He rubbed me the wrong way."

Hear hear.

[Tom]

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Paste only this part of the URL after the =

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[NYPlayer]

Pace, I'm gonna disagree with you.

When you train a horse that wins the Kentucky Derby & Preakness with the style this horse did, you don't knock your competition by saying this is a sub-par group. It undermines your own horse's accomplishments...

I never believed a word he said. He happened to be right about Casino Drive, though. And how good was Dennis of Cork? He got beat by Da'Tara. Even other handicappers in the press said this was a sub-par group. For some, that was the most significant reason to endorse Big Brown. That was the main reason I included Big Brown in the exotics. But I didn't for a minute believe that BB was a shoo-in or that it was inevitable that he win.

The man can say what he likes. Last I checked it's a free country, and I'm not stupid enough to believe that anything he said in any way altered the outcome.

[tribecaagent]

I never believed a word he said. He happened to be right about Casino Drive, though. And how good was Dennis of Cork? He got beat by Da'Tara. Even other handicappers in the press said this was a sub-par group. For some, that was the most significant reason to endorse Big Brown. That was the main reason I included Big Brown in the exotics. But I didn't for a minute believe that BB was a shoo-in or that it was inevitable that he win.

The man can say what he likes. Last I checked it's a free country, and I'm not stupid enough to believe that anything he said in any way altered the outcome.

What am I missing? How can Dutrow be right about a horse that didn't even run?

How good was Denis of Cork? Denis of Cork beat the mighty BB, I think? AND Da'Tara was the best horse today.

It's "other handicappers in the press" job to critique the crop. Not Dutrow. If Dutrow says his own horse is not beating good horses, then his horse is just a very good horse....not great (which was proven today). He's shooting himself in the foot, something he's apparently used to.


The main reason for you to include BB in the exotics is because the press said this was a sub-par group?

Good Luck.

[JustRalph]

And still, we are back to Affirmed vs. Alydar.

Oh, how I miss those days... That was my first year in racing.


Affirmed vs Alydar

Regards,
Dave Schwartz



God, I am hopeless with this YoTbue thing. If I could just see it in writing...

try this link dave

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=461250&postcount=9