Follow Up To HBO Slaughter Episode

[Cangamble]

http://hooflinks.blogspot.com/2008/05/hbo-follow-up.html

Gives names and background of a few of the horses who were sold for meat.
Many were owned by the Estate of Dale Baird.

[Shenanigans]

http://hooflinks.blogspot.com/2008/05/hbo-follow-up.html

Gives names and background of a few of the horses who were sold for meat.
Many were owned by the Estate of Dale Baird.

Not one bit surprised. That is how that operation has run since it was started. That man (and his sons) didn't/don't spend time "finding homes" for their broke down horses. (Some people want to see him inducted in the HOF. For shame.:rolleyes: )

[bigmack]

Interesting:
Dale Baird has been heralded as the most winning trainer in US history, winning over 9,000 races before his death in 2007. Baird has been twice nominated for consideration by Racing's Hall of Fame. Thankfully, he was denied entry both times. What a lot of people didn’t know about Dale Baird was that while he was no doubt America's winning-most trainer, he was also a man who thought nothing of sending hundreds if not thousands of horses to slaughter, once they were no longer of any use to him. He may very well have been the trainer who in his lifetime sent more horses to slaughter than any of his counterparts.

The sale of Balachour Prince, Crow Autumn, Arranged Marriage, and Point of Attack to slaughter on April 18, 2008 proves that despite Dale Baird's death, his legacy of cruelty and total disregard for the welfare of horses, continues on with his son, Bart Baird. The Baird family reign of equine cruelty must end. Dale Baird must never again be considered for entry into racing's Hall of Fame. To do so would be an insult to all true horsemen. "Trainers" such as Dale and Bart Baird have no place among the many fine horsemen within the racing industry, and they along with others like them, should be banned from racing.

[GlenninOhio]

Not one bit surprised. That is how that operation has run since it was started. That man (and his sons) didn't/don't spend time "finding homes" for their broke down horses. (Some people want to see him inducted in the HOF. For shame.:rolleyes: )

I distinctly recall Mountainman as the point person on this board for waxing poetic about Dale Baird as being deserving of HOF status.

Might Mountainman have anything to add to this thread?

[Shenanigans]

I distinctly recall Mountainman as the point person on this board for waxing poetic about Dale Baird as being deserving of HOF status.

Might Mountainman have anything to add to this thread?

He can wax all he wants, it won't change my opinion of that stable.

[DrugS]

I distinctly recall Mountainman as the point person on this board for waxing poetic about Dale Baird as being deserving of HOF status.


Once they build the equine slaughter house Hall of Fame I think DB will be in on the first ballot.

[cj]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other to be honest about horse slaughter. I certainly don't champion it. However, I don't know enough of the facts from both sides to decide if it is a necessary evil of the sport or not. I do know that some countries here in Europe, including Belgium where I have lived for almost five years, eat horse and it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

I would imagine Baird did what he had to do make a living back in the days when he was running horses in $1,000 claiming races at Waterford Park. Maybe old habits are hard to break.

[Tom Barrister]

The man won 9,445 races, about 3,000 more than the next trainer on the list (Jack Van Berg).

Out of those, exactly eight were in stakes races, none in graded stakes.

There must be a reason that he was never elected to the Hall of Fame.

There must be a reason nobody gave him a top-flight horse to train.

He did get a special Eclipse Award in 2005; no clue why.

Baird led the country in wins by owner 17 different years.

I wonder how many years he led the country in thoroughbred racehorses sold to slaughterhouses?

[PaceAdvantage]

If you're going to hang Baird out to dry (and at this point, what IS the point? The man is dead for crying out loud....give it a rest), then what about all the OWNERS of these horses? They share AT LEAST equal blame.

[bigmack]

I don't know that anyone is posthumously being hung out to dry. The facts is the facts.

Would a strong nudge on the shoulder of his son Bart be out of line?

[cj]

I don't know that anyone is posthumously being hung out to dry. The facts is the facts.

Would a strong nudge on the shoulder of his son Bart be out of line?

All I was saying is the guy has most likely handled (by far) more bottom of the barrel horses than any trainer alive.

Serious question, as I honestly don't know the answer: what is someone supposed to do with a 2k claimer that can't earn a nickel anymore. I imagine there are far less people willing to adopt a horse than there are horses that can't run. Am I wrong?

[JBmadera]

We ended up donating all of our horses to a local college which had a robust equine program - the horses got a nice home and we got a decent tax break.


JB

[FunkyMonkey]

If you're going to hang Baird out to dry (and at this point, what IS the point? The man is dead for crying out loud....give it a rest), then what about all the OWNERS of these horses? They share AT LEAST equal blame.

I guess the question here is how many of the horses sent out to slaughter were indeed owned by owners other than the Baird family? Not sure. Anybody?

[Cangamble]

All I was saying is the guy has most likely handled (by far) more bottom of the barrel horses than any trainer alive.

Serious question, as I honestly don't know the answer: what is someone supposed to do with a 2k claimer that can't earn a nickel anymore. I imagine there are far less people willing to adopt a horse than there are horses that can't run. Am I wrong?
Unfortunately, supply does exceed demand most of the time. People who want riding horses generally will pay at least a few thousand dollars for a good looking ex thoroughbred, and yet many horses I assume that are sent to slaughter are capable of becoming great riding horses (maybe some need a little time to get over their ailments). The fact is that anyone could go to these slaughter auctions and buy an ex race horse for less than a thousand dollars, yet because of the demand issue, they don't.
And the other problem is that if you give away a horse for free because the new owner doesn't want to spend any money to buy it, you have to think, how much is that owner going to spend to take care of it properly.
But I do know for a fact, if an owner/trainer wants to avoid getting a horse meated, and is willing to give it away or sell it for a small sum (to someone who has intentions of keeping the horse for a long time), they usually can do so within a week or two.

I think in the case of Baird, his owners (including himself) were not interested in feeding the horse for one extra day. And probably the proceeds of the sale at the meaters sadly went towards the training bill.

[GlenninOhio]

If you're going to hang Baird out to dry (and at this point, what IS the point? The man is dead for crying out loud....give it a rest), then what about all the OWNERS of these horses? They share AT LEAST equal blame.

My understanding is that 99% of the horses Baird trained he (or his immediate family) also owned. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

As for his being dead, I think part of the reason for this remaining a "live" issue is that there are those who have been pulling for him to be elected to the HOF posthumously.

[Observer]

... Serious question, as I honestly don't know the answer: what is someone supposed to do with a 2k claimer that can't earn a nickel anymore. I imagine there are far less people willing to adopt a horse than there are horses that can't run. Am I wrong?

Yes, I believe you ARE wrong.

Just because a horse can't be successful on the track doesn't mean he can't be successful in some other equine discipline. So a given horse can't earn a nickel anymore .. what about the horses that never even got close to earning a nickel????

There is no reason not to make the effort of getting these horses into safe homes, and there are plenty out there. I've seen and heard of many thoroughbreds off the track transform into stars as lesson horses, even for the disabled! Obviously it takes a special horse to be tolerant enough to be a rider's teacher, but believe it or not, there are thoroughbreds who are amazingly tolerant, just not fast. I've also seen many thoroughbreds come off the track and do many other things also, like show jumping, cross country, etc.

Horsemeat in other countries, especially those in Europe, is completely different than here in the U.S., where slaughter has been eliminated. Since it is not legal in this country, it SHOULD NOT be legal to be shipping our horses for hours on end in double-decker trucks to cross the borders into countries where the practice is accepted.

When slaughter was banned in this country, but transport was allowed to continue, basically it was this country saying we simply don't want it happening within our borders.

With each passing year, there are more and more rescue facilities. Finding a rescue that has space available may not be as easy as having the horse carted off, but that is no excuse to send a horse to his death.

[cj]

Observer,

I realize there are other uses for thoroughbreds. What I was asking is if someone tries to find a home for said horse, is it easy to do? I honestly don't know. Cangamble says supply does outweigh demand, you seem to think otherwise.

If owners can give horses away and instead are having them slaughtered for a few dollars, that seems very wrong. It is the owners that are responsible ultimately I would guess, not the trainer.

FYI, I probably should have stayed out of this since I have no way to watch the original show until I get home this weekend. I'm really just wanting to know the answers as I don't pretend to have any.

[Tom]

Finger Lakeshas a very acvtive thoroughbred retirement program. I don' tknow about other tracks, but they should. This is opne more reason I keep saying we need far less racing. Too many horses are bred that should never have been. Less tracks, less racing, far less horses can only help the game itself, but also help a lot of poor animals who suffer for the game's greed. Let's face facts. I would guess at least 50% of all trainers should be stocking shelves at Safeway and not allowed near a horse.

Finger Lakes may not be where champioins debut, but at least they send them out humanely.:ThmbUp:

[beenacoach]

This whole topic is a minefield. There are two distinct positions and in my opinion neither one is right or wrong.

One position is that horses are a special catagory of animal and should not be part or the food chain or disposed of prematurely for any reason.

The other position is that, although they hold a special place in the hearts of many of us, they are still animals and should be managed as such.

Both positions can be defended in a million different ways and very few people will EVER be convinced to switch camps.

There are probably homes for the numbers of animals coming off the track, but there are is not a home for every animal coming off the track. What is the difference?? While the number of homes out there is sufficient the number of homes willing to take a horse that is no longer useful is very limited. It is one thing to care for a "pasture ornament" for years when you have an emotional attachement the animal and quite anther to take one on that you have no attachement to and know you are taking on a significant financial burden without any chance of ever getting any real use out of the animal.

The average fan looks at the big money races and the millionaire owners and sees no reason for any horse to not have a nice retirement home. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the people in horse racing are not millionairs and do not make a profit from the endeavor. Finding a decent home for their animals or disposing of them in a humane manner is not too much to ask of any of them. Asking them to continue to feed every horse they own at the time it comes to the end of its career until it passes away of natural causes is in fact too much to ask and is simply not feesable.

Banning slaughter all together simply makes the over all problem more difficult. Many mares end up being bred simply becuase they are not good for anything else and people try to get some use out of them. "If I have to feed them I may as well breed them". But, the mare is not of good enough quality to pay a big stud fee and so they are bred to stallions that should be geldings in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle. This just adds to the over population and drags down the over all quality of the breed.

I have fed horses of my own that have outlived their real usefulness for an additional ten years, but I would not take on a "strange" horse and do that. I have taken sound horeses off the track and retrained them and found homes for them but it is a money losing propisition in most cases and you have to put up with a LOT of well meaning people that think you are trying to get the horese to sell to the killers (and they often make up lots of stuff that is just not true in order to get other people to not let you take their horeses).

As much as I love horses, I am of the opinion that the best solution is really to allow horeses to be disposed of. The manner should be very closely regulated to assure the humane treatment of the animals during the process and perhaps a part of that process could be making any of them that are still physically able to be of some use available to homes for a specific period of time prior to them being disposed of. This would allow those looking to retrain a sound animal a central place to locate one and remove the possibility that they were simply taking it to go someplace else and dispose of it. In my opinion this would reduce the population in general and improve the quaility of the breed by taking some of the mares out of the breeding population that should not really be there anyway. If regulated properly it would also put an end to the inhumane treatment that some of the animals are being subjected to currently.

This is all just off the top of my head and based on my personal knowledge and experience. I know that it will NOT be well received by the people that object to any disposal of horses but I believe that this kind of a system would be much more acceptable than some of what is taking place today.

Ok I am braced for the outpouring of negative feedback that will most likely now occur.

[Pace Cap'n]

Sharp post.

[joanied]

The man won 9,445 races, about 3,000 more than the next trainer on the list (Jack Van Berg).

Out of those, exactly eight were in stakes races, none in graded stakes.

There must be a reason that he was never elected to the Hall of Fame.

There must be a reason nobody gave him a top-flight horse to train.

He did get a special Eclipse Award in 2005; no clue why.

Baird led the country in wins by owner 17 different years.

I wonder how many years he led the country in thoroughbred racehorses sold to slaughterhouses?

God forbid :mad: that Dale Baird should ever get into the Hall of Fame...not just because of his lack of compassion, but his record as a trainer (thank you Tom) is not deserving.

[joanied]

I recorded that program (I hate Bryant GumBALL) but could not watch it...
all the posts on this subject are good ones, many excellent points to ponder...
Althought there are at this point, hundreds of adoption type services out there, thousands of folks trying to do the right thing, and hundreds of horses finding new homes, this 'problem' won't go away any time soon.
Concerning Thoroughbreds on the track...to me the best way to at least lessen the number of horses going to these slaughter sales, is to lessen the number of 'cheap' horses that get to the track in the first place...folks breeding poor stallions to poor mares, then running the offspring at the cheapest level of racing trying to make some money...that needs to be addressed.

Horses in general...too many horses, not enough folks...have you checked the equine classifieds section on the internet...1,000's upon 1,000's being offered for sale...and what happens to the ones that don't sell...we know the answer to that.

For me, anyone making a buck by selling a horse for slaughter needs to be, well, horse whipped!! For me...if you could afford to buy the horse in the first place, then you can find a humane way of ending it's life...makes me sick...anyone purchasing a horse needs to look ahead and decide right then and there what they are willing to do for that horse when it's life has been lived, or it gets so lame it needs to be put down, or any other scenario comes up where they can't keep that horse any longer.
The thought of horses as food is as horrible to me as one of my dogs being used as food...but, if they can regulate the slaughter of horses so the event is not a horror for the horse, like taking your dog to the vet to be put to sleep...he has no idea what's coming, and slips away with no stress or fear...it's the actual transport and what they go through at the 'feed' lots that make me so horrified about slaughter. It is a better alternative than horses left to starve to death by owners who should be the one's traveling in that big truck, herded into pens with dozens of strangers and led to die while fear and confusion is all they feel.

There are no excuses for a human to end a horse's life in less than a humane way...

[juanepstein]

karmas a bitch.

[joanied]

karmas a bitch.

It sure CAN be!!!

[PaceAdvantage]

My understanding is that 99% of the horses Baird trained he (or his immediate family) also owned. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.Somebody also emailed me that Baird owned most of these horses that were slaughtered....so much for sharing the blame.

[Observer]

Obviously no easy answers here, and I certainly know I probably will not change anyone's mind.

This is not a matter of slaughter being ok or not, because our country has said it is not ok. Instead, the U.S. says transport across the borders is ok. At this point, it's the transport that needs to be addressed. My feeling is that if it's not ok to do it here, we shouldn't be stuffing horses (of any breed) into trucks and carting them hours upon hours or even days for slaughter that this country has deemed as being wrong.

Yes, I still believe the fairytale ending of a home for every horse. Of course, how can this be when there's not even a home for every human??? How can there be safe havens for all horses when child services fail children on a far-too-regular basis???

There is no doubt that taking in a horse for rescue, rehab, retraining, or just plain pasture retirement is a HUGE financial burden to most people, and no doubt a losing proposition. It can be very, very hard to turn a profit on the resale of a horse .. I know, I've tried.

I also know that no matter what great intentions and thoughts someone has about securing the future for a horse, sometimes life throws wicked, unforeseen curveballs that smash those visions, which can result in difficult decisions being made.

There are things in life that are difficult, solutions that just don't come easy. This doesn't mean the path of least resistance is the answer. Allowing horses to be carted off is just too simple a solution.

[joanied]

Obviously no easy answers here, and I certainly know I probably will not change anyone's mind.

This is not a matter of slaughter being ok or not, because our country has said it is not ok. Instead, the U.S. says transport across the borders is ok. At this point, it's the transport that needs to be addressed. My feeling is that if it's not ok to do it here, we shouldn't be stuffing horses (of any breed) into trucks and carting them hours upon hours or even days for slaughter that this country has deemed as being wrong.

Yes, I still believe the fairytale ending of a home for every horse. Of course, how can this be when there's not even a home for every human??? How can there be safe havens for all horses when child services fail children on a far-too-regular basis???

There is no doubt that taking in a horse for rescue, rehab, retraining, or just plain pasture retirement is a HUGE financial burden to most people, and no doubt a losing proposition. It can be very, very hard to turn a profit on the resale of a horse .. I know, I've tried.

I also know that no matter what great intentions and thoughts someone has about securing the future for a horse, sometimes life throws wicked, unforeseen curveballs that smash those visions, which can result in difficult decisions being made.

There are things in life that are difficult, solutions that just don't come easy. This doesn't mean the path of least resistance is the answer. Allowing horses to be carted off is just too simple a solution.

There are no easy answers to this, observer.... doubt there ever will be. Wether or not slaughter is OK, I agree, is not the point. Point is, we are still sending horses to slaughter, and to have them transported to Mexico (or Canada) to have it done does make it even more horrendous for the horses.
You're on the mark.
I beleive I said in my other post that it's not to actual killing (I would hope, but not certain, that the kill is fast & painless, and from what I know, it is)...it's that transport that is the nightmare. Penning up dozens, maybe hundreds of horses together, stuffing them in a truck...mygod, could it be any more horrible!!!
I feel so strongly about that, I can honestly say, if I had a horse that needed to be put down and I had no money to pay for the vet to do it, I would sell something, or borrow the money to have it done...I cannot for the life of me understand how a person can do that to a horse.
And about that...I also cannot imagine ANY vet that would not put down a horse humanely for a person and work out something for payment...so this excuse about folks not being able to afford to have a vet euthanize a horse, or horses, for me, is simply a ton of BS.
Horse owners are the only responsible party in all this...and it's so damned sad that too many will find excuses not to euthanize in a humane manner.
AARRGGHHH:mad: ...this entire subject leaves me sick to my tummy.
:(

[beenacoach]

"This is not a matter of slaughter being ok or not, because our country has said it is not ok."

My question is, when it was legal in this country did you feel that it was a matter of it being ok or not ok? There were a number of people that felt it was not ok and that is why the law was changed. Now that it is not ok, there are still a number of people that feel it should be ok. For a wide range of reasons. Why is their concern any less valid than yours (or perhaps I should say more generally, than those that feel it is not ok)?

[ryesteve]

My feeling is that if it's not ok to do it here, we shouldn't be stuffing horses (of any breed) into trucks and carting them hours upon hours or even days for slaughter that this country has deemed as being wrong.
Unfortunately, this is the way we often operate. This country deems it wrong to work children in factories for 12 hours a day; so we'll let southeast asian kids do it and then buy the goods they make. This country deems it wrong to spray crops with various pesticides; so we'll let south america do it and then eat the food they ship here. This country deems it wrong to use lead in children's toys; so we'll let China do it and then let our kids play with the stuff they send here. This country deems it wrong to torture people; so we'll render them to other countries and torture them there. And so on...

So is it really all that surprising that a similar mentality exists when it comes to these horses?

[Living Flame]

Very good point!

[Living Flame]

I beleive I said in my other post that it's not to actual killing (I would hope, but not certain, that the kill is fast & painless, and from what I know, it is)...it's that transport that is the nightmare. Penning up dozens, maybe hundreds of horses together, stuffing them in a truck...mygod, could it be any more horrible!!!

:(

Er...from what I have seen, heard, and read...it is anything but painless. It can be a long and excruciating death. Plus, horses can sense, smell, see, and hear the horror before them. They know something terrible is about to happen to them. Of course, sadly, it's not like a simple injection given while loving humans are holding them.

Bottom line, IMO: Every horse should be given the chance at a second career. Fix 'em up, post some cleverly worded ads around, and there's a good chance you'll make a few bucks at least.

Hell, people will buy anything! I think there's a woman in Kansas who makes $40,000 a year selling tumbleweeds over the net for God's sake!:faint:

[joanied]

Er...from what I have seen, heard, and read...it is anything but painless. It can be a long and excruciating death. Plus, horses can sense, smell, see, and hear the horror before them. They know something terrible is about to happen to them. Of course, sadly, it's not like a simple injection given while loving humans are holding them.

Bottom line, IMO: Every horse should be given the chance at a second career. Fix 'em up, post some cleverly worded ads around, and there's a good chance you'll make a few bucks at least.

Hell, people will buy anything! I think there's a woman in Kansas who makes $40,000 a year selling tumbleweeds over the net for God's sake!:faint:

Yes, every horse should be given that chance...but they aren't becuase we have more unwanted horses than folks willing to take them. That is the very reason why owners need to take responsibility and humanely euthanize...I'm sorry, but anyone using the excuse that thay cannot afford to have their vet give that horse a shot to be put down is full of BS...there is always a way to end a life humanely....hell, shooting a horse is more humane that what they go through via slaughter...
you are right, Living Flame, in your description of what these poor horses go through is spot on. I wasn't sure if the actual way they were killed had changed or not because I cannot get myself to read about it...but I forced myself to do a little research and once again...I was horrified.
How anyone can send a horse to slaughter, knowing what they go through once they are at the kill plant is beyond me.
I had my own little business raising Appendix registered horses for about 10 years (my TB mares bred to QH studs) and one that I sold has been living on a ranch about 400 miles from me...the folks have sold the ranch, lock,stock abd barrel...this 'baby' of mine, who is now 9 yrs old, was entered in a sale...but before she went, these folks looked me up and asked if I'd rather have her go through the sale (telling me she's a beautiful mare, kind, and of course, she has an excellent pedigree)...or if I'd like to have her back... I really don't have room for another horse, but next week I'm going down there to bring Luna home...just simply thinking that she might get bought for slaughter, or even go to a bad home, was enough... there are folks that care...we just need many more....and these folks cared enough to get in touch with me.

I read an article recently that suggested that 'we' build humane facilities for horse slaughter...plants that would take only horses and have a system in place that will not allow other horses to see the killing, and to have the plant clean at all times, so no blood can be smelled... a good idea to toss about, because I can't see horse slaughter going away...wether it's here in the USA or in Mexico...it's won't stop, so what we have to do is perhaps build on the idea of stricktly regulated slaughter facilites for horses only.

I hate this topic:( :( :(

PS... concerning our Thoroughbreds going from the track to slaughter...that is so outrageous that I can't see straight...that is the one place where the vet can come to the barn, for cryin' out loud, to put down a horse, or they can be vanned to the vet clinic or a farm to be humanely put down...for race trackers like Baird, all they want is to make a few bucks more off that horse...they outta :mad: be pistol whipped.