YES BIG BROWN vs CURLIN in THE WOODWARD

[Citation33]

Heatseeker and Tiago too maybe. Ooppss sorry my mistake. He will be retired after the Belmont Stakes. Ahhh why run against the best anyway to prove you are the best. I guess nothing wrong running against Icabad Crane,Anak Nakal,Tale of Ekati,Tres Borreches,El Gato Malo,etc and then retiring.

[Imriledup]

We just need to hope BB can make it to Belmont in 2.5 weeks. With a horse worth 50 million and having fragile feet, we just have to hope he can get thru this next little stretch so we can witness his last lifetime star.

Bye Bye Big Brown, we hardly knew ye.

[PaceAdvantage]

Every indication is that his feet are just fine. You guys act as if no horse in the world, except for BB, has ever gotten a quarter crack and lived to tell about it....

In any event, if he wins the Belmont, don't automatically assume he is finished racing. Stranger things have happened.

[slewis]

Every indication is that his feet are just fine. You guys act as if no horse in the world, except for BB, has ever gotten a quarter crack and lived to tell about it....

In any event, if he wins the Belmont, don't automatically assume he is finished racing. Stranger things have happened.

Absolutely.

When I saw BB's feet at Churchill, I can tell you that they were fine w/ the glue on shoes. Ive seen much worse.

Mineshaft, who wore glue on's in his US career, had feet alot worse visually then BB. Neil Howard, who is one of the nicest gentleman you'll ever meet on the racetrack, was very candid with me when I noticed the shoes and asked him about them. He told me they sent him (mineshaft) back to the states because his feet were so bad.
Neil told me he felt the blacksmith's (and fiberglass technology) in the US are years ahead of what they're doing in UK.
I don't know whether it was Ian (Mckinley) who worked on Mineshaft but I'd bet he did. Ian is considered "The Master" when it comes to these Fiberglass molded shoes on the NY racing circuit.

[ghostyapper]

In any event, if he wins the Belmont, don't automatically assume he is finished racing. Stranger things have happened.

An undefeated TC winner in today's world? They wouldn't even wait to get him back to the barn before they started covering him in shrink wrap, it would be done right in the winners circle.

[PaceAdvantage]

We'll see whose opinion turns out to be correct after the Belmont.

The $50M deal (or however much it is) has been signed. It's done. If what you're saying is true, why even risk the Belmont? After all, he could lose...right? Or worse....

I honestly think there is a decent chance he runs another time or two after the Belmont....

[ghostyapper]

The $50M deal (or however much it is) has been signed. It's done. If what you're saying is true, why even risk the Belmont? After all, he could lose...right? Or worse....

You do realize that adding "Triple Crown Winner" to a stallion ad increases the stud fee at least $50k right? No the owners won't see this unless they have shares in him, but 3 chimney's sure will and they are the one's calling the shots now.

[MNslappy]

I hope you're right PA. This might be pie in the sky reasoning I admit, but, for the IEAH boys this is the first superstar type horse they've had isn't it? Have they had other multiple Grade 1 winners in their barn? Not sure. It wouldn't shock me to see them enjoy this ride a little while longer though, because this is their dream coming true right now. 5 years of working toward this goal and now they have it. I'm sure, the $50 mil aside, it's going to be a tough day when they finally bring this run to an end, they're having the times of their lives right now.

[PaceAdvantage]

You do realize that adding "Triple Crown Winner" to a stallion ad increases the stud fee at least $50k right? No the owners won't see this unless they have shares in him, but 3 chimney's sure will and they are the one's calling the shots now.You are correct. I suppose I'm thinking much more with my heart than with my head here.

[Pace Cap'n]

They have some other decent horses...Benny The Bull, Kip DeVille, Papi Chullo, Stormin Normandy, etc

[Shenanigans]

Saw the pictures of BB's feet. One whole side was covered with a patch. I wouldn't call that "fine".

Three Chimneys syndicated Smarty Jones. Someone (from the Smarty Party) told me he was being retired after the Belmont regardless of the outcome. Take that how you want to.

[PaceAdvantage]

Saw the pictures of BB's feet. One whole side was covered with a patch. I wouldn't call that "fine".I suppose those that I heard refer to his feet as "fine" were lying then....what do I know? I saw the same pictures as you from the same blog.

"Fine," as in, currently causing no problems.....

I can't argue with those who believe he is gone after the Belmont. Given his accomplishments, the current era we race in, and his feet, I suppose it is inevitable.

[Shenanigans]

I suppose those that I heard refer to his feet as "fine" were lying then....what do I know? I saw the same pictures as you from the same blog.

"Fine," as in, currently causing no problems.....

I can't argue with those who believe he is gone after the Belmont. Given his accomplishments, the current era we race in, and his feet, I suppose it is inevitable.

That's about it. But in the long run, they are far from "fine".

[Bruddah]

I have either read or heard from somewhere, that horses with quarter cracks or split hooves are more subject to problems with laminitus. I don't know, I am hoping some of the horse people, on this board, might know. :confused:

[Burls]

I wonder if BBs foot problems can be passed on genetically.
If so, then, in the worst case scenario, some of his high-priced progeny might inherit the bad hoofs but not the explosive running ability.
That would be like being one of the Joel kids who inherited Billy's looks and Christie's musical ability.
What a raw deal that would be.

[samyn on the green]

Since this horse has so many foot problems why not go back to the kinder and gentler grass after the Belmont? Arlington Million, Man O War, Turf Classic, those sort of races. Maybe cap off the year with a triumph in the Arc since the BC is on the possibly dangerous Santa Anita surface.

[startngate]

You do realize that adding "Triple Crown Winner" to a stallion ad increases the stud fee at least $50k right? No the owners won't see this unless they have shares in him, but 3 chimney's sure will and they are the one's calling the shots now.Actually, the Clay's have openly stated that they are NOT calling the shots now.

Clay emphasized that the current owners will determine how long Big Brown races.

"They have total control of his racing career," he said. "When they deliver him to Three Chimneys, we'll start to manage him. So far, they've done a pretty good job."http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2008-05-18-big-brown-deal_N.htm

Which probably means the $50 million doesn't get paid until IEAH delivers BB to Three Chimneys, and there is now a much larger insurance policy on the horse.

Same story indicates IEAH kept a piece of BB in the deal.

I for one would like to see BB vs Curlin and a TC winner racing at 4, but fear it will never happen. The sport of racing will lose again. :(

[46zilzal]

Maybe cap off the year with a triumph in the Arc since the BC is on the possibly dangerous Santa Anita surface.
You can't be serious. This one would get embarrassed in that contest.

[KingChas]

If BB were to win the TC, it would be nice to see some track up the ante to get these two and a few others together for a race.
But that's not gonna happen.
Nice little fantasy thread though. ;)

[Citation33]

No,I agree with the answers of he'll be wrapped up right after the Belmont. Retire him and call him great after running against nobody.

[Tom]

So who says Curlin makes it to the Woodward either?:confused:
MHO - the two never meet.
Would be nice, but so would everyone here sending me $50.
Anyone want my address? :rolleyes:

[Citation33]

Well Curlin is not the only horse out there. You make it as if there's only one horse that can run out there. What about Heatseeker,Tiago,Benny the Bull,Go Between,etc. OK how about the turf,they talk about how he can dominate on it like his maiden race. How about Einstein,Kip Deville,Better Talk Now,etc. Why just Curlin?

I'm sorry but in my book running gainst a weak group of 3yo's(how many of then have broken 100 beyer) does'nt prove anything. If he broke records in all or some of the Triple crown races than maybe I'd lean towards greatness but he has'nt. Am I trashing Brown? No But I can not saying he's one of the greats or he can beat anyone if he has'nt faced anyone or been challenged.

[pdxmike]

BB may run after Belmont?


http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/news/ny-spowner205694177may20,0,1185243.story

[ghostyapper]

BB may run after Belmont?


http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/news/ny-spowner205694177may20,0,1185243.story

These 2 may continue after the belmont as well.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/triple/2004-06-02-smarty-not-retiring_x.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/triple/belmont/2005-06-12-alex-future_x.htm

[ryesteve]

That's the kind of research I like :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

possibly dangerous Santa Anita surface.

Oh, please. Does Del Mar fit that catagory too?

[joanied]

This is a fairly extensive article on Brownie's feet and worth a read...

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11883

[joanied]

Here is a quote from Dutrow you guys might find interesting...



Dutrow addressed questions about a potential match-up with last year’s Horse of the Year Curlin, and said he would be eager for such a meeting to take place in the Breeders’ Cup Classic (gr. I) at Santa Anita Park Oct. 25. IEAH Stables and Paul Pompa Jr., Big Brown’s owners, sold the breeding rights to the colt to Three Chimneys Farm the day of the Preakness. Michael Iavarone of IEAH Stables said Big Brown would not race as a 4-year-old.

“Our plan is the Belmont, Travers, and Breeders’ Cup,” Dutrow said. “We are going to show up if our horse is good and ready. I don’t know what they (Curlin’s connections) are going to do. I would like to see them run together, it would be good for racing and good for us; it won’t be so good for them.”

Maybe the Belmont won't be the swan song for BB that everyone seems to think it'll be...I have high hopes we'll see the big brown horse run again....as a Triple Crown :jump: winner....let's all keep our fingers & toes crossed.

[PaceAdvantage]

If anything, you can't call Dutrow predictable (or maybe you can...lol)

Like I said, I don't see BB leaving us after the Belmont, but with the Travers and BC Classic on tap for BB, I don't see a BB vs. Curlin match-up either.

It would be great if many if not most of the top horses decide to boycott this "artificial" BC Classic in favor of the Jockey Club Gold Cup at Belmont. Somehow, get NYRA to up the purse of the JCGC (how and by how much, I'm not sure) if BB, Curlin and a few other choice stars agree to show up....that would be amazing, and it would also allow BB to retain home court advantage.

[Bubbles]

I don't think he runs after the Travers. As well as he handled turf in his debut, the SA polytrack is a different animal, and why risk it against animals who WOULD put up a fight? The best he could hope for would be an "as expected" win.

I agree with PA that the JCGC could be made an interesting race by NYRA upping the ante, but I doubt you'd get the West Coast horses off the poly, especially one start before the BC.

[Kelso]

It would be great if many if not most of the top horses decide to boycott this "artificial" BC Classic in favor of the Jockey Club Gold Cup at Belmont.:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Tom Barrister]

Let's do the math.

Popular stallions can cover over 200 mares a season (year).

Many more breeders will be willing to pay Big Brown's stud fee if he wins the Triple Crown, and he can command probably 50k more per mare. If he gets 50 more mares per year, at $50k more per mare, over 12 years, that's an extra $30 million over his lifetime. The numbers are conservative (the actual future worth could be as much as four times higher, depending on how greedy the connections are), but the possibilities of a life-ending injury, mishap, illness, etc., haven't been factored in, nor has the time value of the money over the ensuing years. If we accept $30 million as present-value, that effectively raises the winner's share of the Belmont purse by $30 million for Big Brown, this added to the Triple Crown bonus and other bonuses he may earn if he wins. On top of that, the horse doesn't have much to beat in the Belmont.

If Big Brown loses the Belmont, he probably can get as much at stud duty as he would if he retired now.

In other words, the rewards justify the risk.

Racing him onward won't help things. He'll be facing much tougher horses in the Breeders Cup. Retire after a Belmont win, and the "what if...?" mystique is there, but the "Triple Crown winner" will be rock-solid. Race him through the Classic, and he might make another $4 million or so in purses, but he won't (in my opinion) make that much more at stud duty. However, if he throws up a clunker or Curlin and company embarass him, the number of breeders now willing to fork over his stud fee might go down. Then there's the risk associated training and racing, plus the ever-nagging hoof-problems (real or imagined in the minds of the owners).

It would be nice if a sheik or other billionaire with an interest in the good of the sport came forward, purchased Big Brown, and raced him for the next two or three years, or as long as he was healthy, and then retired him to stud. Unfortunately, that's not currently the case, and it's likely that the horse will be retired after the Belmont.

[DJofSD]

It would be nice if a sheik or other billionaire with an interest in the good of the sport came forward, purchased Big Brown,...

Sure, why not? One of the oil barrons from that part of the world just purchased Fasig-Tipton.

Not that I'm comparing BB to Sunday Silence but I think it was a big mistake for American breeding and racing to let Sunday Silence go to Japan. Having Big Brown go elsewhere to stud would be, IMO, a repeat of that mistake.

[samyn on the green]

It is a dangerous surface in the middle of fire season. It will be 95 degrees and the polytrack will smell like a glue facotry. If it rains the track could be flooded while the ashes from the fires collect in the horses lungs. This is very unsettling for the horses. If you do not believe me listen to Jeff Mullins.


DRF article on continued issues with Santa Anita Surface (http://drf.com/news/article/94840.html)

"It's got soft spots and it's really inconsistent," Jeff Mullins said.


Oh, please. Does Del Mar fit that catagory too?

[TheGhost]

New here. Great board. Anyway yes I would love to see him run against top horses running today but not sure they will do it because of money.

[jasperson]

I am not ready to bestow greatness on BB yet even if he wins the Belmont. He beat a group of sub par 3 yrolds in the derby and ran the worst Beyers in a decade beating a group that were at the best high grade allowance horses. His time in the derby was about same as Whirlaway's in 1941 and with the aid of steriods and what other medications we now allow. His accomplishments will not compare with Smart Jones which lost the Belmont by about a length to superior competition to anything BB will face in that race. To bestow greatness to this horse is an afront to all the previous winner of the triple crown.
Jack

[46zilzal]

To bestow greatness to this horse is an afront to all the previous winner of the triple crown.

EXACTLY

[PaceAdvantage]

To bestow greatness to this horse is an afront to all the previous winner of the triple crown.
JackI believe they say this almost every year the Triple Crown is on the line....

How many track records did Affirmed break as a 3yo?

[46zilzal]

I believe they say this almost every year the Triple Crown is on the line....

How many track records did Affirmed break as a 3yo?
BOTH of these (Slew and Affirmed) horses garnered and solidified the mantle of greatness on much MORE than their three year old season alone.

[jasperson]

I believe they say this almost every year the Triple Crown is on the line....

How many track records did Affirmed break as a 3yo?
About as many as BB will. At least he was tested by Alydar. Eight Bells beat this crop by about 3 lengths and these were the best of 3 yrold colts. I will re-evaluate my position again if he trackles Curling and at least finishes a close 2nd to him. I don't think this is going to happen because BB will retire after the Belmont win or lose just like Smarty Jones
Jack

[jognlope]

Racing is a business with little to no regard for the fans. Won't happen.