The last thing Dutrow should be criticized for is Winstrol....

[PaceAdvantage]

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.

There are many things you can criticize Rick Dutrow for, but administering LEGAL steroids isn't one of them, IMO. As Michael Dickinson said himself, they are used by 95% of the trainers out there.

So, to single out Big Brown as some sort of Barry Bonds-type of athlete is ludicrous. To suggest that he deserves an "*" next to his name if he wins the Triple Crown is insane.

If we are to believe Dickinson as well as our own common sense, then we must assume that MOST past champions (and this includes the likes of Secretariat onward....Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Easy Goer, Cigar, Holy Bull, Go For Wand, Winning Colors, Invasor, Barbaro, you name them....) were given anabolic steroids at some point in their careers.....

It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters....to think that legal anabolic steroid use isn't utilized in a similar manner (especially when trying to sell yearlings and such) is only kidding yourself.

[ezpace]

The heavy use may have started when many trainers had success using them on race mares to take care of that menstral cycle problem,then the use PROGRESSed

[highnote]

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.

There are many things you can criticize Rick Dutrow for, but administering LEGAL steroids isn't one of them, IMO. As Michael Dickinson said himself, they are used by 95% of the trainers out there.

So, to single out Big Brown as some sort of Barry Bonds-type of athlete is ludicrous. To suggest that he deserves an "*" next to his name if he wins the Triple Crown is insane.

If we are to believe Dickinson as well as our own common sense, then we must assume that MOST past champions (and this includes the likes of Secretariat onward....Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Easy Goer, Cigar, Holy Bull, Go For Wand, Winning Colors, Invasor, Barbaro, you name them....) were given anabolic steroids at some point in their careers.....

It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters....to think that legal anabolic steroid use isn't utilized in a similar manner (especially when trying to sell yearlings and such) is only kidding yourself.

I assume nothing, but I am inclined to agree with you. I guess we'll just have to look to the champions of old - Citation, War Admiral, Man O War, etc. It's a shame to see the effect drugs have had on sports in general and racing in particular.

I think the Barry Bonds comparison is fair. Big Brown should have an asterisk by his name. No one forces trainers to give their horses performance enhancing anabolic steroids. If they have no effect, then they shouldn't use them, in my very humble opinion. Didn't someone say something about oceanfront property for sale in Arizona. :D

(BB = Barry Bonds. BB= Big Brown. Ironic) :lol:


You want to see a real Champion that came before the steroid age? Check out Citation -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_(horse)

Not only did he race as a two year old, he raced nine times his first season. He won the Triple Crown as a three year old and had 29 starts! He did not race due to injuries as a four year old; raced at age five and raced at age six!

All in all Citation raced 45 times and set two world records. Compared to Citation, BB (the horse) is nothing but a wuss. :D

[Marlin]

Check out Citation. The one horse I can say without hesitation was GIVEN the triple crown. Maybe the most overrated horse in the history of horseracing. Give me Noor any day of the week.

[highnote]

He won 16 races in a row. So maybe he was a wee bit overrated. :D

I'm not saying he didn't get some breaks and I'm not saying BB is not a champion. But for crissakes, Citation ran 45 times, won 16 in a row and set two world records.

They don't make them like they used to.

[Nacumi]

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.There are many things you can criticize Rick Dutrow for, but administering LEGAL steroids isn't one of them, IMO. As Michael Dickinson said himself, they are used by 95% of the trainers out there.
So, to single out Big Brown as some sort of Barry Bonds-type of athlete is ludicrous. To suggest that he deserves an "*" next to his name if he wins the Triple Crown is insane.
If we are to believe Dickinson as well as our own common sense, then we must assume that MOST past champions (and this includes the likes of Secretariat onward....Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Easy Goer, Cigar, Holy Bull, Go For Wand, Winning Colors, Invasor, Barbaro, you name them....) were given anabolic steroids at some point in their careers.....
It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters....to think that legal anabolic steroid use isn't utilized in a similar manner (especially when trying to sell yearlings and such) is only kidding yourself.

Okay, PA. Thanks so much for the clarification. Let's review, then, shall we, all the things for which we SHOULD be critical of Mr. Dutrow? 33 pages worth here.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/acrobat/2008-05/38903142.pdf

Personally, what kind of horse is BB without the Winstrol, etc.? Truth is, we'll never know will we, just like we won't know what kind of trainer Dutrow is without his medicine bag.

[Yorker]

2/14/91 - Attempted to provide false urine sample by means of an appartus concealed upon his person and attempted to deceive state racing officials by such conduct.

Was it a Whizzinator???

http://www.whizzinator.com/

[xfile]

The racing commission told Dutrow they will try to get Winstrol banned by January and he didn't seem concerned. For what it's worth, about 20 some years ago I was a body builder and used Winstrol. All I can say is it gave me tremendous strength as a human, not a horse obviously. I'm a big supporter of Dutrow. He came from the bottom, sleeping in a barn at Aqueduct and a drug addict. He's come a long way. On one hand I am a Dutrow fan and definitely a Big Brown fan. On the other hand I do know first hand what Winstrol can do. Perhaps the quantity given, which is once a month on the 15th to the Dutrow stable, is not large enough to have much of an impact on a huge animal like a thoroughbred. The fact is Big Brown got his Winstrol on Thursday and then a monster race 2 days later. Coincidence? What's your opinion? :cool:

[Bubbles]

It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters...Good point. After all, we can argue that Alysheba, dubbed "America's Horse," was a product of Lasix. When he was on the stuff, he was a star. Off it, he was just plain ordinary, losing the Belmont by 14 lengths.

[Pace Cap'n]

Okay, PA. Thanks so much for the clarification. Let's review, then, shall we, all the things for which we SHOULD be critical of Mr. Dutrow? 33 pages worth here.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/acrobat/2008-05/38903142.pdf

Personally, what kind of horse is BB without the Winstrol, etc.? Truth is, we'll never know will we, just like we won't know what kind of trainer Dutrow is without his medicine bag.

Only about five of the items listed in those 33 pages were for drugs-in-horse violations. The substances were the usual suspects, bute, mepivacaine and lasix. The rest were either personal or procedural. No cobra venom anywhere.

[Nacumi]

Only about five of the items listed in those 33 pages were for drugs-in-horse violations. The substances were the usual suspects, bute, mepivacaine and lasix. The rest were either personal or procedural. No cobra venom anywhere.

These are just the ones they caught. And no cobra venom because they hadn't developed the protocols for testing yet? ;) In addition to all the other substances for which jurisdictions can't/don't yet test?
It's about character and 'edge' people, willing to bend the line/rules till they get caught, at which point they laugh, slough it off and get right back to work doing more of the same.
Our industry is in a very harsh spotlight right now, and frankly, to have this guy be the ambassador shepherding its next great "superhorse" is plain bad for business.

[slewis]

Okay, PA. Thanks so much for the clarification. Let's review, then, shall we, all the things for which we SHOULD be critical of Mr. Dutrow? 33 pages worth here.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/acrobat/2008-05/38903142.pdf

Personally, what kind of horse is BB without the Winstrol, etc.? Truth is, we'll never know will we, just like we won't know what kind of trainer Dutrow is without his medicine bag.

I cant believe some of the nonsense I read here.

I'll repeat again what I've posted previously regarding Rick Dutrow, in case this postee... and others missed it the first go-round.

I have personally had horses with Rick Dutrow. (I think at one point we had 7 or 8 with him).
We no longer use Rick for reasons that are not important to this thread, nor would I hesitate to possibly give Rick horses in the future providing I was able to rectify some very minor issues with his operation.
Here's what I can GUARANTEE everyone as truth: (In our case anyway)
Our vet bills were LESS with Rick than ANY other trainer we use(d), including Tagg and Mott.
Rick has always been as honest with me regarding our horses as an owner can expect, (which I can't say is the case for other trainers we've employed in the past).
EVERY SINGLE time Rick has told me a horse is bad and we needed to get him claimed or sell him privately, they NEVER raced well for any other trainer, including Contessa, who's probably the top claiming guy in NY right now.
When I asked him (Rick) about steroid use (more than 3 yrs ago), he told me the EXACT same thing he's telling the press now, and what I posted, he does not think highly of there effectivness in the race horse, and uses Winstrol once a month to keep their coat's healthier, not to build unnatural muscle mass which he does not think helps.

As far as his "medicine bag" goes, I ask how does a trainer impliment his "medicine bag" in Dubai while he's sitting in South Florida? Are his assistant's in on the game, and if so, why would they not go out on their own??
Heck, I'm sure if they bragged to some owner that they "knew" what Rick was doing I'm certain someone would give them a horse to train.
Next, if he sent his "bag of tricks" to Dubai with an assistant(s), how do they get them past customs at BOTH ports (US and Dubai??).
I previously posted about the security at the Kentucky Derby (for those who dont remember, we raced a horse this year too, no jokes please thank you)
and for those who read it, I said there was an ACTUAL ARMED LOUISVILLE POLICE OFFICER (not Peace officer or Pinkerton type) assigned 24 hrs. a day with each Derby horse as soon as they come on the grounds at Churchill.
I spoke to the officer assigned (or one of) to Big Truck and he told me "Where ever your Horse goes, I go, I follow him everywhere".
Although I've never been to Dubai, Scott Lake told me it's much the same way, probably strichter.
And remember, they have a Zero-tolerance drug policy there.
So I ask again... how does he win not one, but two huge races there!!!
I've been very fortunate to have had horses with many trainers in the 11 yrs I've been going to the races full time, and have seen many operations, and most guys do things pretty much the same way. Obviously what separates the top guys is that they have come up with edges that the others have not.
Whether they are illegal is up to the racing juristictions to find, but they just might be legal edges here, I don't know.
But for those that think the cheating is so far out of control, it might be time to take up a new hobby.

[Nacumi]

I cant believe some of the nonsense I read here.

Uh, ditto. Several things you've said (spelling errors notwithstanding) I've found striking.

EVERY SINGLE time Rick has told me a horse is bad and we needed to get him claimed or sell him privately, they NEVER raced well for any other trainer, including Contessa, who's probably the top claiming guy in NY right now.

Bad? Needed to get him claimed or sell him privately? In other words, to knowingly pass off horses with known problems to other unsuspecting saps? I understand this is the heart and soul of the claiming game, but please. No offense, but you wonder they didn't race as well for someone else?

When I asked him (Rick) about steroid use (more than 3 yrs ago), he told me the EXACT same thing he's telling the press now, and what I posted, he does not think highly of there effectivness in the race horse, and uses Winstrol once a month to keep their coat's healthier, not to build unnatural muscle mass which he does not think helps.

Keep their coats healthier? Good diet, good internal health and good grooming makes coats dappled and shiny, but all that takes longer. I guess Marion Jones used whatever she used to make her hair shiny, not to run faster?

I As far as his "medicine bag" goes, I ask how does a trainer impliment his "medicine bag" in Dubai while he's sitting in South Florida? Are his assistant's in on the game, and if so, why would they not go out on their own?? Heck, I'm sure if they bragged to some owner that they "knew" what Rick was doing I'm certain someone would give them a horse to train. Next, if he sent his "bag of tricks" to Dubai with an assistant(s), how do they get them past customs at BOTH ports (US and Dubai??).

Got me. Only Rick and his assistants know for sure, I guess.

Obviously what separates the top guys is that they have come up with edges that the others have not. Whether they are illegal is up to the racing juristictions to find, but they just might be legal edges here, I don't know.

That was my point. If they take away the steroids, the top guys with the top vets will still have the latest and greatest "tools" with which to have a competitive advantage, including undetectable, untraceable substances, which often get flushed away with Lasix and a run. Until US racing mandates random out of competition testing and bans race day medications all together, the "edge" guys will always find a way to push things to the limit.

[Kelso]

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.Racing went 24 seasons, 1949-1972 without a TC winner. Then, in the 70s, 3 TCs were won in the span of just 6 seasons.

Is there a direct link here, do you think? Did the trainers of Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed (and/or Alydar, for that matter) simply catch wise before all the others?

I have no opinion at all as to the correct answer. It could be simply the random walk theory in action. Still, I remember wondering in the 70s why winning a TC at least seemed so much easier to accomplish in the 70s than it did in the 60s.

(Similarly, were there more two-out-of-three winners in the 24 seasons from 1979 through 2002 than there were from 1949-1972?)

[pandy]

The racing commission told Dutrow they will try to get Winstrol banned by January and he didn't seem concerned. For what it's worth, about 20 some years ago I was a body builder and used Winstrol. All I can say is it gave me tremendous strength as a human, not a horse obviously. I'm a big supporter of Dutrow. He came from the bottom, sleeping in a barn at Aqueduct and a drug addict. He's come a long way. On one hand I am a Dutrow fan and definitely a Big Brown fan. On the other hand I do know first hand what Winstrol can do. Perhaps the quantity given, which is once a month on the 15th to the Dutrow stable, is not large enough to have much of an impact on a huge animal like a thoroughbred. The fact is Big Brown got his Winstrol on Thursday and then a monster race 2 days later. Coincidence? What's your opinion? :cool:

Fortunately it looks like steroids will eventually be banned at all racetracks.

[Shenanigans]

I cant believe some of the nonsense I read here.

I'll repeat again what I've posted previously regarding Rick Dutrow, in case this postee... and others missed it the first go-round.

I have personally had horses with Rick Dutrow. (I think at one point we had 7 or 8 with him).
We no longer use Rick for reasons that are not important to this thread, nor would I hesitate to possibly give Rick horses in the future providing I was able to rectify some very minor issues with his operation.
Here's what I can GUARANTEE everyone as truth: (In our case anyway)
Our vet bills were LESS with Rick than ANY other trainer we use(d), including Tag and Mott.
Rick has always been as honest with me regarding our horses as an owner can expect, (which I can't say is the case for other trainers we've employed in the past).
EVERY SINGLE time Rick has told me a horse is bad and we needed to get him claimed or sell him privately, they NEVER raced well for any other trainer, including Contessa, who's probably the top claiming guy in NY right now.
When I asked him (Rick) about steroid use (more than 3 yrs ago), he told me the EXACT same thing he's telling the press now, and what I posted, he does not think highly of there effectiveness in the race horse, and uses Winstrol once a month to keep their coat's healthier, not to build unnatural muscle mass which he does not think helps.

As far as his "medicine bag" goes, I ask how does a trainer implement his "medicine bag" in Dubai while he's sitting in South Florida? Are his assistant's in on the game, and if so, why would they not go out on their own??
Heck, I'm sure if they bragged to some owner that they "knew" what Rick was doing I'm certain someone would give them a horse to train.
Next, if he sent his "bag of tricks" to Dubai with an assistant(s), how do they get them past customs at BOTH ports (US and Dubai??).
I previously posted about the security at the Kentucky Derby (for those who dont remember, we raced a horse this year too, no jokes please thank you)
and for those who read it, I said there was an ACTUAL ARMED LOUISVILLE POLICE OFFICER (not Peace officer or Pinkerton type) assigned 24 hrs. a day with each Derby horse as soon as they come on the grounds at Churchill.
I spoke to the officer assigned (or one of) to Big Truck and he told me "Where ever your Horse goes, I go, I follow him everywhere".
Although I've never been to Dubai, Scott Lake told me it's much the same way, probably strichter.
And remember, they have a Zero-tolerance drug policy there.
So I ask again... how does he win not one, but two huge races there!!!
I've been very fortunate to have had horses with many trainers in the 11 yrs I've been going to the races full time, and have seen many operations, and most guys do things pretty much the same way. Obviously what separates the top guys is that they have come up with edges that the others have not.
Whether they are illegal is up to the racing jurisdictions to find, but they just might be legal edges here, I don't know.
But for those that think the cheating is so far out of control, it might be time to take up a new hobby.

The story Dutrow gives for his using steroids in his horses is hilarious. A shiny coat comes from good feed and a good groom. It's just a BS story he gives his owners so they don't question him about the vet bill.
Note: I am not knocking the man for the use of steroids, because I agree that 95% of the trainers do use them. However, those trainers are not using them to acquire shiny coats on their horses. They use them to keep a "level playing field." I have a problem with the "crock of poo" Dutrow feeds to his owners who want a shiny coated horse.:D
Not every horse in a cheating trainers barn needs "help". Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.;)
The reason his "medicine bag" was not present in Dubai is because it wasn't needed. Do you really think that trainer would send a horse that needs "help" to Dubai.
The reason his assistant trainers stay with him is because they couldn't take the pay cut. Look at Lukas' assistants. They didn't cash in overnight. They still had to prove they could train despite the barn they walked away from.
Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself?;) He's an admitted big time gambler. You don't think he'll pay out of pocket for his commission he'll get at the window?
FYI - a famous motto said by many trainers: "Never educate a stupid owner." and - "Treat your owners like a mushroom: Feed them bull and keep them in the dark."
Looks like Dutrow lives by both of those.

[lamboguy]

good point about rick d. he is a good man and as far as i know does nothing wrong. i have horses that run in penn. as we all know steroid use is banned there. i have a filly that had winstrol on dec. 12. she has yet to shed her winter coat, and her coat is very dull right now. she has completely lost her agresiveness since she has been off the steroids. we continue to train her, and see some very small improvements, but i realise now that she can never win at the level that she ran at when she was on steroids. does that mean that i have to move her to a jurisdiction that still lets you use them?

i ran a horse at deleware park and my horse was randomly drug tested before the race. i thought that was a good policy. my horses trane at fairhill and ship to deleware, penn national or phildelphia to run

[magwell]

The story Dutrow gives for his using steroids in his horses is hilarious. A shiny coat comes from good feed and a good groom. It's just a BS story he gives his owners so they don't question him about the vet bill.
Note: I am not knocking the man for the use of steroids, because I agree that 95% of the trainers do use them. However, those trainers are not using them to acquire shiny coats on their horses. They use them to keep a "level playing field." I have a problem with the "crock of poo" Dutrow feeds to his owners who want a shiny coated horse.:D
Not every horse in a cheating trainers barn needs "help". Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.;)
The reason his "medicine bag" was not present in Dubai is because it wasn't needed. Do you really think that trainer would send a horse that needs "help" to Dubai.
The reason his assistant trainers stay with him is because they couldn't take the pay cut. Look at Lukas' assistants. They didn't cash in overnight. They still had to prove they could train despite the barn they walked away from.
Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself?;) He's an admitted big time gambler. You don't think he'll pay out of pocket for his commission he'll get at the window?
FYI - a famous motto said by many trainers: "Never educate a stupid owner." and - "Treat your owners like a mushroom: Feed them bull and keep them in the dark."
Looks like Dutrow lives by both of those. WOW..... he speaks kind of you :rolleyes:

[Semipro]

The story Dutrow gives for his using steroids in his horses is hilarious. A shiny coat comes from good feed and a good groom. It's just a BS story he gives his owners so they don't question him about the vet bill.
Note: I am not knocking the man for the use of steroids, because I agree that 95% of the trainers do use them. However, those trainers are not using them to acquire shiny coats on their horses. They use them to keep a "level playing field." I have a problem with the "crock of poo" Dutrow feeds to his owners who want a shiny coated horse.:D
Not every horse in a cheating trainers barn needs "help". Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.;)
The reason his "medicine bag" was not present in Dubai is because it wasn't needed. Do you really think that trainer would send a horse that needs "help" to Dubai.
The reason his assistant trainers stay with him is because they couldn't take the pay cut. Look at Lukas' assistants. They didn't cash in overnight. They still had to prove they could train despite the barn they walked away from.
Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself?;) He's an admitted big time gambler. You don't think he'll pay out of pocket for his commission he'll get at the window?
FYI - a famous motto said by many trainers: "Never educate a stupid owner." and - "Treat your owners like a mushroom: Feed them bull and keep them in the dark."
Looks like Dutrow lives by both of those.Why don't you just get off of Dutrow your boring bashing only makes you look jealous of his successes. Slewis seems to have alot more personal and professional knowledge of the man than you and I haven't meet many mushroom owners successful people have this uncanny way of getting out of the dark.

[Nacumi]

Do a little reading about the origin of injectable steroids, which have been around a lot longer than the sixties, in fact, as early as the latter half of the 19th century, when a French physiology professor reported he had injected himself with extracts of dog and guinea pig testicles, resulting in an increase in his physical strength and health. More research into the reported benefits led to the synthesis of testosterone in 1935 in Germany. During World War II, German scientists began to synthesize other anabolic steroids, experimenting with human prisoners, and German troops, in hopes of increasing their aggressive tendencies. Adolph Hitler's personal physician reported that Hitler was given injections of testosterone derivatives for various maladies, bu it's pure irony that one of the initial therapeutic uses of was treatment of chronic wasting, the kind experienced by concentration camp prisoners. The Germans developed the first version of Winstrol, which hit new heights of abuse in the '50s with weightlifters and bodybuilders, and subsequently, with Olympic athletes from behind the Iron Curtain.

[Observer]

Good point. After all, we can argue that Alysheba, dubbed "America's Horse," was a product of Lasix. When he was on the stuff, he was a star. Off it, he was just plain ordinary, losing the Belmont by 14 lengths.

Alysheba came off Lasix and even shed the blinkers as a 4-year-old, his stronger, more consistent year.

What's silly, is nearly every single horse that travels into Bute territory will go on that medication for as long as they race where it's not "illegal," even if it's just one race. If a horse ran 10 races in NY, then travels to CA for one race before continuing to run in NY, there is a 99% chance that horse will go on Bute for his one race in CA. That to me is insane, but unfortunately perfectly okay since the trainer is doing nothing "illegal" by putting his horse on Bute for the one race.

Not a single person wants anyone else to have an edge, whether in racing, or any aspect of life. It's simply unrealistic to bash anyone who is staying away from what's been deemed "illegal."

Since Winstrol is currently not "illegal," there should be no judgement against those who have made it part of their maintenence program, just as trainers will take advantage of Bute when available.

[Observer]

... Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.;)
...

A horse that has been "blocked" wouldn't need to be on a vet list of some kind???

[slewis]

Quote by "SHENANIGANS" in response to my experience having horses trained by Rick Dutrow:



"Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself?;) "

And you're calling ME stupid ?????:lol:

Your honor, the defense rests.

[JustRalph]

Do a little reading about the origin of injectable steroids, which have been around a lot longer than the sixties, in fact, as early as the latter half of the 19th century, when a French physiology professor reported he had injected himself with extracts of dog and guinea pig testicles,

Wow! What a ballsy guy!!! He must have been nuts!!

[Nacumi]

Wow! What a ballsy guy!!! He must have been nuts!!

;) The Dr. House of Victorian-era France, I'm sure. The old fine line between pure genius and pure insanity.

[PaceAdvantage]

Do a little reading about the origin of injectable steroids, which have been around a lot longer than the sixties, in fact, as early as the latter half of the 19th century, when a French physiology professor reported he had injected himself with extracts of dog and guinea pig testicles, resulting in an increase in his physical strength and health. I wasn't looking for the point of discovery, just the point where more than a handful of racehorse trainers might be dabbling in the drug....

[Nacumi]

I wasn't looking for the point of discovery, just the point where more than a handful of racehorse trainers might be dabbling in the drug....

I realize that. We've all heard the legend about Man O' War being a "hophead", so it's natural to assume that with time, and anecdotal evidence, doping would change from 'natural' substances to synthesized ones. Just like in humans, the drug of choice would evolve with supply and manufacturing.

[xfile]

I wasn't looking for the point of discovery, just the point where more than a handful of racehorse trainers might be dabbling in the drug....

PA makes a very good point here. They let the horseplayers know about lasix. They should also let us know when a horse is getting 'the juice' first time, all the time, etc. I call it 'the juice' because that is basically what steroids are. When I took them (Winstrol included) over 20 years ago that's what we called them. "That guy's on the juice", etc, etc :cool: And the stuff was expensive even back then. It must be extremely expensive now so not all trainers and owners can afford that type of vet bill every month.

[xfile]

Fortunately it looks like steroids will eventually be banned at all racetracks.

Hi Pandy - Whether they are eventually banned (which is what it's looking like) or not the horseplayers should be given this information. Who's on steroids?, who's first time on steroids, etc. Just like lasix information. :cool:
Not every barn can afford steroid treatment so tell us who is? Can we only assume the large barns like Contessa and Dutrow? Maybe some smaller barns who have some cash backing them. That would be good information for the horseplayer to have. They keep us in the dark on this.

[highnote]

"That guy's on the juice", etc, etc :cool: And the stuff was expensive even back then. It must be extremely expensive now so not all trainers and owners can afford that type of vet bill every month.


I seem to recall our trainer telling us that we could give our horses Equipoise (spelling?) but it would cost $150 per month per horse.

That's nothing compared to what a good stakes horse can win, but for our $4,000 claiming horses at Mountaineer it seemed like an expense we could do without. Maybe that's why we didn't win more? :D

[JustRalph]

Wow! What a ballsy guy!!! He must have been nuts!!


I hate when I try to make a joke and you guys ignore it............. :bang: :lol: :lol:

[BillW]

I hate when I try to make a joke and you guys ignore it............. :bang: :lol: :lol:

I had to, or I'd have been forced to moderate myself! :p

[Shenanigans]

Why don't you just get off of Dutrow your boring bashing only makes you look jealous of his successes. Slewis seems to have alot more personal and professional knowledge of the man than you and I haven't meet many mushroom owners successful people have this uncanny way of getting out of the dark.

Why don't you put me on your ignore list? Please.

[Shenanigans]

A horse that has been "blocked" wouldn't need to be on a vet list of some kind???

Feet are allowed to be blocked.

[Shenanigans]

Quote by "SHENANIGANS" in response to my experience having horses trained by Rick Dutrow:



"Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself?;) "

And you're calling ME stupid ?????:lol:

Your honor, the defense rests.

Where did I call you stupid? However, your post above may have indications of it, Little Mushroom.:lol:

[Shenanigans]

good point about rick d. he is a good man and as far as i know does nothing wrong. i have horses that run in penn. as we all know steroid use is banned there. i have a filly that had winstrol on dec. 12. she has yet to shed her winter coat, and her coat is very dull right now. she has completely lost her agresiveness since she has been off the steroids. we continue to train her, and see some very small improvements, but i realise now that she can never win at the level that she ran at when she was on steroids. does that mean that i have to move her to a jurisdiction that still lets you use them?

i ran a horse at deleware park and my horse was randomly drug tested before the race. i thought that was a good policy. my horses trane at fairhill and ship to deleware, penn national or phildelphia to run

It takes approx. 8 months for a horse to "get back to normal" and then some never do i.e infertile. Your filly's system has been whacked out the entire time she's been on steroids. Her not shedding her winter coat is from her hormones (and probably thyroid) being totally out of balance. Thank the steroids for that.

[PaceAdvantage]

Feet are allowed to be blocked.Like Observer stated, if that were the case, he'd be on a list. I believe they hang this list in the racing office (at NYRA anyway). I've seen the list myself. Nobody was questioning the legality of the procedure, but there is a list.

[46zilzal]

Many jurisdictions allow low end "nerving" (neurectomy) for chronic hoof pain.

[PaceAdvantage]

Many jurisdictions allow low end "nerving" (neurectomy) for chronic hoof pain.Yes, we know that. What we are discussing (and what Observer originally asked) is whether or not such horse's names get placed on a list.

At NYRA they do....there was never any debate on whether or not such a procedure was legal.

[highnote]

Many jurisdictions allow low end "nerving" (neurectomy) for chronic hoof pain.


Thanks. I was wondering what it meant when a horse has it's foot "blocked".

If I was a jockey I'd have to ask myself if I'd want to get on a horse that did not have any sense of pain that a normal horse would feel.

But I digress. Sorry.

[Nacumi]

Thanks. I was wondering what it meant when a horse has it's foot "blocked".
If I was a jockey I'd have to ask myself if I'd want to get on a horse that did not have any sense of pain that a normal horse would feel.
But I digress. Sorry.

Frankly, I'm pretty uncomfortable thinking about my sound horses running in company with the horses that can't feel pain, too. Having had experience with a horse with very shelly feet, I can tell you that if they aren't medicated and feel anything ouchy, they'll take care of themselves and their riders. That usually means not running fast and "through" the pain.

[46zilzal]

Yes, we know that. What we are discussing (and what Observer originally asked) is whether or not such horse's names get placed on a list.



Yes at most tracks that has to be published for all prospective claimants to see.

[PaceAdvantage]

So if it's a stakes horse who has never entered a claiming race, does he get put on the list?

[Rackon]

Many jurisdictions allow low end "nerving" (neurectomy) for chronic hoof pain.

Some trainers won't use a neurectomy, which is obviously permanent - that's where trainers like Biancone and the cobra venom enter the picture, as that (now) illegal substance has used as a temporary nerve blocker. We first heard of it being used about 15 years ago, by certain vets who were on the harness track circuit. We never availed ourselves of this "therapy" with our standardbreds but others did, and it spread to the TB tracks.

Contrary to implications here, BB's I'm highly doubtful BB needs nerve blockers for his hooves - if a quarter crack pops it's fairly obvious and the horse wouldn't be running. From pics of his feet I've seen on the net the hoof problems are under control - for now. I can't speculate on other soundness issues.

[Shenanigans]

I read today in a Bloodhorse website article that BB ran down in behind. Is anyone familiar with the Pimilico surface? Is it proned to doing that to horses? I remember the Keeneland dirt track was good for running down. Running down through bandages is tough. Ouch. I'll be nice and not say what I think it's from......:rolleyes:

[46zilzal]

I read today in a Bloodhorse website article that BB ran down in behind. Is anyone familiar with the Pimilico surface? Is it proned to doing that to horses? I remember the Keeneland dirt track was good for running down. Running down through bandages is tough. Ouch. I'll be nice and not say what I think it's from......
Big Sandy is known for that.

[Shenanigans]

Big Sandy is known for that.

Maybe Big Sandy is, but I seem to recall the Preakness being run at Pimilico. Hopefully Dutrow will have the backs wrapped as thick as the fronts were at Pimilico for the Belmont.

[magwell]

I read today in a Bloodhorse website article that BB ran down in behind. Is anyone familiar with the Pimilico surface? Is it proned to doing that to horses? I remember the Keeneland dirt track was good for running down. Running down through bandages is tough. Ouch. I'll be nice and not say what I think it's from......:rolleyes: Wow....you will be nice and not say what you think:lol: everybody by now can see you do have a good understanding about race horses but your contempt for Dutrow is clouding your vision. By the way he still speaks kindly of you :)

[PaceAdvantage]

I read the same article, and I believe it was presented as a minor incident. There are varying degrees of seriousness when it comes to this sort of thing, no?

And please Shenanigans, don't ever hold back an opinion. Opinions can flow freely here. You can never be called onto the carpet for voicing an opinion. Why do you think BB ran down behind?

[slewis]

I read the same article, and I believe it was presented as a minor incident. There are varying degrees of seriousness when it comes to this sort of thing, no?

And please Shenanigans, don't ever hold back an opinion. Opinions can flow freely here. You can never be called onto the carpet for voicing an opinion. Why do you think BB ran down behind?

Tagg's barn is right next to Frankel's.

Next time I see BB I'll post, but for all the "Dutrow haters", I wouldn't hold your breath on this one.

[Shenanigans]

OK, here's a clarification for all you "defenders" of Dutrow:
First, I don't "hate" the man. Here's what I am having a hard time with: With the ever increasing problems in the racing industry, racing, right now, is not looking very attractive to the potential race fan. Unfortunately, with the tragic breakdown of Eight Belles in the Derby, it has not only clouded BB's win but also magnified (IMO) Dutrow's numerous rulings in the game. I have come across so many people that are not real familiar with the game that aren't talking about a possible TC winner but rather the negatives that have been put out there by the media. Should we blame the media? I don't know. But I seem to recall other possible TC wins, i.e. Smarty Jones, and people actually talked about that and how great it would be if Servis could pull it off with Smarty. This year the talk really isn't focused on a deserving trainer winning the TC with a horse, but rather a cheating, arrogant trainer pulling it off. It is a little disheartening IMO. Racing needs a positive ambassador, especially during the TC, and unfortunately, Dutrow is totally the opposite. Some of you that say it's a matter of opinion obviously are not watching, reading or listening to what is being said in the media.
This is really not about the horse. BB is an absolutely, gorgeous horse. His curious expressions and cool demeanor has intelligence written all over him. I am impressed by him in that regard. I will be really surprised if he doesn't win the Belmont. Unfortunate for him, due to his connections, IMO, his TC win will not have a totally positive impact for racing. Not his fault. I just feel this years TC possible isn't as exciting and really isn't drawing the non-race fan in (like in the past) because of all the negative stories coming out of the camp.
One other thing that is annoying, which has nothing to do with Dutrow, is the fact that if this horse does win the TC, we won't see him race again. I can see this horse becoming the "freak" that some folks seem to think he already is, but we're not going to be fortunate enough to witness that. Can you imagine a BC Classic with BB (a TC winner) and Curlin? Wouldn't that be fun? Not going to happen.

[Shenanigans]

Tagg's barn is right next to Frankel's.

Next time I see BB I'll post, but for all the "Dutrow haters", I wouldn't hold your breath on this one.

Post what? That he's the grand looking animal that he is? We already know that. Are you going to question Dutrow about the run downs? Or were you going to get behind the horse and check and see the seriousness of them? The man said he had them. What news can you give us?

[Shenanigans]

Wow....you will be nice and not say what you think:lol: everybody by now can see you do have a good understanding about race horses but your contempt for Dutrow is clouding your vision. By the way he still speaks kindly of you :)

I think you have a freakish internet infatuation for me - hence the reasoning for your trolling my post. If your a man, keep it up, it's starting to turn me on. :p :lol:

[magwell]

I think you have a freakish internet infatuation for me - hence the reasoning for your trolling my post. If your a man, keep it up, it's starting to turn me on. :p :lol: So their is a softer side of you,lets meet at saratoga this year have a few drinks and hook up with Rick {babe} and clear the air, are you game ?? :)

[highnote]

The one positive (pardon the pun) thing I can say about Dutrow is that at least he is honest. How many other trainers use steroids on their horses but would never have admitted it -- always keeping it hush hush.

Maybe he is reformed and due to his difficult past he is now incapable of lying?

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. It is possible for people to become rehabilitated. The past does not equal the future.

Now he comes off as a brash New Yorker, like Donald Trump. There are worse ways to behave.

People didn't like Baffert when he was the media darling, either. If you've read Baffert's biography, you know he is no choirboy, but he got the job done.

[Tom Barrister]

The one positive (pardon the pun) thing I can say about Dutrow is that at least he is honest. How many other trainers use steroids on their horses but would never have admitted it -- always keeping it hush hush.



I would say that he's, at best, selectively honest.

[BillW]

The one positive (pardon the pun) thing I can say about Dutrow is that at least he is honest. How many other trainers use steroids on their horses but would never have admitted it -- always keeping it hush hush.


Steroids are legal in horseracing. Why would "other trainers" keep is hush hush unless they were acquiring and using them illegally (as in baseball, football etc.)? I guess due to the competitive nature of the game most trainers don't "blog", discussing all of their training techniques in public.

[Shenanigans]

So their is a softer side of you,lets meet at saratoga this year have a few drinks and hook up with Rick {babe} and clear the air, are you game ?? :)

Sweety, I would be very game if I hadn't planned for a vacation else where. However, if plans change and I can make it to Saratoga, you'll be the first to know.;)

[Tom Barrister]

Being legal and being morally and/or ethically correct are often two different things. In my opinion, it's not right to give steroids to horses for any other purpose than treatment of an illness or disorder. Also, the fact or assumption that other trainers have given steroids to their horses doesn't justify a trainer doing so now or forwardly.

Others may have different views.

[Kelso]

ran down in behindPlease, what does this phrase mean? Thank you.

[Shenanigans]

Please, what does this phrase mean? Thank you.

It's when a horse rubs the back part of the ankle raw from it hitting the surface of the track. The hooves sink in the dirt and the flexed ankle rubs the surface. It looks like a rug burn. Wraps are put on with a round patch called a 3M patch. This patch is plastic like and is to protect the back part of the ankle. Unfortunately, it didn't work for BB.

[Kelso]

It's when a horse rubs the back part of the ankle raw from it hitting the surface of the track. The hooves sink in the dirt and the flexed ankle rubs the surface. It looks like a rug burn. Wraps are put on with a round patch called a 3M patch. This patch is plastic like and is to protect the back part of the ankle. Unfortunately, it didn't work for BB.Thank you, kindly, Shenanigans. (Is this usually a consequence of a track's depth ... or it's composition ... or something else track-related ... or is it more from how an individual horse runs and plants his feet?)

[beenacoach]

A horse running down is not uncommon at all (especially in Quarter Horse racing). In my opinion it is most often simply a matter of the individual horses structure and way of traveling. A horse with longer pasterns (the part between the hoof and the ankle) and/or one that reaches farther up under himself with his hind feet as he runs will be more prone to running down. The longer pasterns flex more and give a softer more comfortable ride but also the extra flexion brings the ankle down closer to the surface he is traveling across. Similarly, the farther a horse reaches up under himself when he runs the more likely he is to "run down". However, "running down" can be better/worse on certain surfaces. Normally one run down patch is sufficient but I have seen some horses that routinely needed a double patch to prevent "running through" the patch.

[magwell]

Both Shenanigans and Caoch are 100% right. I might add its rare when they run down on the turf.....

[beenacoach]

Since Quarter Horses don't run on turf I have no real experience with that as yet. I could see where running down would be less of a problem on turf (if a problem at all). Does anyone have any first hand experience on "running down" on the All Weather Surfaces?

[slewis]

Thank you, kindly, Shenanigans. (Is this usually a consequence of a track's depth ... or it's composition ... or something else track-related ... or is it more from how an individual horse runs and plants his feet?)

It's actually a combo of both, but I would say 80% track and 20% confirmation.

When a track is VERY sloppy, the cushion has too much moisture to be a "cushion" and horses will go right down to the "base" which is a harder composite of dirt and gravel. (Racetracks are made of several "layers" of various composition to support and protect the horse and to allow for draining.) In the case of the Preakness, like many big days, (although it wasn't sloppy), they may have fiddled with it causing horses to run down. PIMLICO, (I think, unlike Churchill and Belmont) also does not allow bend shoes behind, which provide a bit of lift and might keep a horse from running down as badly.
Horses are more inclined to run down behind on these types of tracks, above the pastern on the back of the ankle.
There was a stakes horse years ago named BOOM TOWNER who LOVED off tracks (remember when the form put mud marks next to the horse's name *).
On sloppy tracks, he ran down so badly, that regardless of how much bandage or protection they used, he'd run down. The owners had to scratch on sloppy tracks even though he was a cinch on them.
I even think they might have done some sought of graph on him, that's how badly he ran down.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wraps are put on with a round patch called a 3M patch. This patch is plastic like and is to protect the back part of the ankle. Unfortunately, it didn't work for BB.Didn't Dutrow indicate in that article that he did not use any patches on BB, and that he would use them next time?

"It won’t happen next time because I will put patches and bandages on him.”

[Shenanigans]

Thank you, kindly, Shenanigans. (Is this usually a consequence of a track's depth ... or it's composition ... or something else track-related ... or is it more from how an individual horse runs and plants his feet?)

It can also be from a horse throwing their weight more on those legs getting off the other legs. It's more of a concern if one ankle has a run down, because that can be saying the diagonal leg is bothering the horse.

[Shenanigans]

Didn't Dutrow indicate in that article that he did not use any patches on BB, and that he would use them next time?

He had wraps on in the Preakness. I have never been around any trainer that put wraps on and no 3M patches. It's not to say Dutrow did (according to him, BB didn't have either:confused: - viewing pictures says differently about wraps). Horses can still run down through the 3M. Usually, the whole point of putting wraps on is to apply the 3M. Of course, there is a different kind of patch that can be used and that might be what Dutrow is implying. It's made of a thicker material and can actually be glue on.

[beenacoach]

Again, my experience is from the Quarter Horse racing world, but in that venue it is not uncommon to wrap a horses legs without using run down patches. Just some added support. Or perhaps habit or superstition :D .

The patches other than 3M that I have used and seen used are actually patches intended for use in patching tire inner tubes. They are a nice round shape, have adhesive on one side so they are easy to stick to the first layer or two of the wrap and stay in place while you complete the wrap job, and I believe are much more durable than the 3M patches (less likely to be "run through") Also, back in the day when I was training, they were way way cheaper than 3M patches.

[beenacoach]

With all due respect, I have to say that running down is probably far more weighted towards physiology than track surface. If it were more track surface related you would see far more horses wrapped on certain tracks than you do and other tracks where almost none were wrapped. Surface can certainly impact how bad the damage is to the horse when he runs down and even if he runs down at all at times but the larger factor in most cases, in my opinion, is the physiology of the animal.

[Shenanigans]

With all due respect, I have to say that running down is probably far more weighted towards physiology than track surface. If it were more track surface related you would see far more horses wrapped on certain tracks than you do and other tracks where almost none were wrapped. Surface can certainly impact how bad the damage is to the horse when he runs down and even if he runs down at all at times but the larger factor in most cases, in my opinion, is the physiology of the animal.

Agree.

[john del riccio]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/05/22/2008-05-22_the_day_at_the_races-1.html


John

[slewis]

With all due respect, I have to say that running down is probably far more weighted towards physiology than track surface. If it were more track surface related you would see far more horses wrapped on certain tracks than you do and other tracks where almost none were wrapped. Surface can certainly impact how bad the damage is to the horse when he runs down and even if he runs down at all at times but the larger factor in most cases, in my opinion, is the physiology of the animal.

Thanks for your reply. I think we're only in slight disagreement here.
My point is that a horse who is prone to run down due to his confirmation will run down on most if not all dirt surfaces, some being worse then others.
Nobiz Like Shobiz... your classic example. For those who dont know... his inconsistancy on the dirt was largely due to him RUNNING DOWN, regardless of it being Belmont, or Gulfstream park. You can take this to the bank cause I have horses with Tagg who pointed it out to me..
As mentioned previously on this thread.. the grass is more forgiving for horses who run down.. but they need to also like the turf, hence not a cure all solution.
BUT... let's take a VERY sloppy Belmont.. or a scraped Pimlico... horses who normally don't run down just might.
I ALWAYS SEE THIS (and trust me I watch horses returning from the racetrack at Belmont).. horses rear bandages and patches get shreaded off, and occasionally (although not as often as about 5 yrs ago) blood and burned ankles. This has much more to do with the track then confirmation.
That's why I posted that %.
I think.. not sure.. but think... that may have slightly happened to BB.
But it was TRACK related in his case (my opinion) and probably wont happen on a normal surface.

[beenacoach]

Ok, we are not far apart. Surface can effect running down there is not doubt about that. To put a percentage on it either way would be difficult if not impossible and vary a great deal on any given situation.

My inclination would be that the all weather surfaces would be more like turf than dirt in terms of where it is on the scale of run down friendly or not. Does anyone know for sure on that?

[Shenanigans]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/05/22/2008-05-22_the_day_at_the_races-1.html


John

He's an idiot if he thinks they (steroids) are not harmful to horses. It's a proven fact they can cause infertility. There hasn't been enough studies done on racehorses on steroids for him to say they are not harmful. From horses showing acts of "roid rage" to the ones that leave the track, coming off the steroids showing signs of withdrawal, it would be very hard to argue that they don't cause some harmful side effect.
It's pretty sad when the man can talk as if he's a supporter of the use of steroids but won't admit that his two horses that ran in the Derby were on them.

[PaceAdvantage]

He's an idiot if he thinks they (steroids) are not harmful to horses.Well, that's not exactly what he stated. Pletcher said "not harmful if used properly."

[magwell]

Shenanigans you bashed Dutrow and now you call pletcher a idiot. Time to tell us your claim to fame......:rolleyes:

[Shenanigans]

Shenanigans you bashed Dutrow and now you call pletcher a idiot. Time to tell us your claim to fame......:rolleyes:

So what if I call Pletcher an idiot. If you read that article and know anything about steroids and what they DO do to horses, you would agree that the man isn't being truthful. I find it humorous that one trainer can admit to giving his Derby running horse steroids, but another can't when we all know that he did. He speaks as if they aren't that big of a deal, but when the question is asked if he partakes in administering them, he's mum. Please. I have more respect for Dutrow for admitting he uses them than someone like Pletcher who does use them but can't admit it.
My "claim to fame" is none of your business. I am not a member on this board to find approval from people I never intend on meeting or doing business with. I don't need to impress anyone here, unlike some who shout out who they know or who trains for them or who their bed partner is....:rolleyes: I am secure in my accomplishments enough to not have to brag about them. Besides, if I would tell you what I have done with my life, why would you be so inclined to believe me? Anyone could come on here and give some line about themselves, it still doesn't make it true or mean the reader believes it (I know I don't believe half the BS I read on here.) So what's the point?
BTW, you can stick your Saratoga drinks invite in your craw and blow it out your ear. I would probably throw the drink in your face before our meeting was over and leave you hot and bothered.:p ;) :lol:

[PurplePower]

......
What's silly, is nearly every single horse that travels into Bute territory will go on that medication for as long as they race where it's not "illegal," even if it's just one race. If a horse ran 10 races in NY, then travels to CA for one race before continuing to run in NY, there is a 99% chance that horse will go on Bute for his one race in CA. That to me is insane, but unfortunately perfectly okay since the trainer is doing nothing "illegal" by putting his horse on Bute for the one race.......
Ok – As much as I like you Observer, I’m a little tired of New Yorkers saying that their horses race “drug free”. The rules of racing in New York are the SAME as the rules of racing in Louisiana, Texas, AND California when it comes to “race day medications”. The Texas rules of racing state: no person may administer or cause to be administered to a horse or greyhound a prohibited drug, chemical, or other substance, by injection, by oral or topical administration, by rectal infusion or suppository, by nasogastric intubation, or by inhalation, and any other means during the 24-hour period before the post time for the race in which the animal is entered.

The rules of racing in New York state (http://www.racing.state.ny.us/about/thbred/Sec4040.1-4044.2.html#4043.2) (emphasis added by me)
The following substances may be administered by any means until 24 hours before the scheduled post time of the race in which the horse is to compete:
(1) antibiotics,
(2) sulfa-expectorants,(e.g. sulfa-methoxypyridazine)
(3) tetanus antitoxin,
(4) electrolytes, vitamins, and other food supplements and body nutrients not containing procaine or other drugs,
(5) Omeprazole; (STOMACH ACID REDUCER)
(6) Cimetidine;
(7) Ranatidine;
(8) Sucralfate.
d) Either one, but no more than one, of the following two non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs MAY be administered by intravenous injection until 24 hours before the scheduled post time of the race in which the horse is to compete:
(1) flunixin (Banamine)
(2) Phenylbutazone (Bute)

That is the same rule that exists in the states such as Oklahoma and California that indicate that he horse is racing on bute by placing a “B” in the program. The horses racing in New York, Texas and Louisiana that go to Californina (or Oklahoma) and show up with a “B” by there name are not racing on Bute for the “first” time and then when they return to their respective state race “clean”. (New York, Louisiana and Texas do NOT require the indication of “B” in the program since their rules state that the horse cannot be administered Bute within 24 hours of a race. That is the SAME rule in California and Oklahoma. The horses in New York can have Bute, stomach acid reducers, expectorants and antibiotics in their systems when they race. The ONLY permitted race day medication in any state for which I have reviewed the rules of racing for the trainers exam prep class that I teach (including Kentucky as of 2006) is Lasix (or other approved anti-bleeder medication).
Horses racing in New York can have the same amount of Bute in their system that horses racing in California, Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Minnesota just to name a few. So, it’s time to stop the myth that horses racing in New York are racing “clean” except for Lasix.

The New York rules state that steroids (and a number of other drugs) can be administered up to 48 hours before race time. When I was learning about training racehorses in the 70’s, Equipoise was given every 30 days primarily to females to keep them from cycling and to geldings to make them more “aggressive”. Equipoise seemed to have a deleterious effect on female reproduction and Winstrol was introduced as a more reproductive friendly steroid. Virtually all of the horses of the trainers I learned from were getting Equipoise with the exception of some of the colts that were already showing a lot of aggression. I’m willing to bet that all of the Triple Crown winners of the 70’s were given Equipoise (including my favorite, Secretariat, and my second favorite Alydar – the only winner of the “Place Triple Crown”). I didn’t give any of the horses I trained steroids except for an occasional therapeutic dose for a horse coming off two-weeks of antibiotics (I remember two 2-year olds getting one shot of Equipoise coming off such therapy – one returning from life-saving colic surgery and neither raced for at least 3 or 4 months after.)

I don’t begrudge Dutrow using the legal medication, but his answer regarding why he gives it to all his horses on the 15th of the month was a classic demonstration of one reason that there will be a model rule passed this summer that requires trainers to have 20 hours of continuing education each licensing period in order to renew their license. But, that’s another thread.