hersey

[jasperson]

I am about to commit heresy , but I don't think that today's tb is as fragile as today's trainers and the press make out. We are told it is a result of breeding for speed and I ask it that is what if we are doing that where is the increase in speed? We are proclaiming Big Brown as a super horse because of his derby win in 2.01 and change. Well Whirlaway ran that back in 1941. He must have been a super doper horse. As a person that has followed racing for the past 65 years I don't see the increase in speed. My memory fails me as to the exact date but the track record for 6f at SA used to be 1:07 3/5 sometime in the 60's. Swaps held the track record for the mile at 1:33 and change. How many sub 1.08 6f race and sub 1.33 mile do we see now day? In harness racing in 1941 if you had a trotter or pacer that could go a mile in 2.00 you had at least a season's champion. Today if you can't beat 2.00 you don't have any stock to go to the races with. Sb's have increase their speed by at least 9 seconds. That is what I call breeding for speed. Dr Quirin book published in 1979 stated that a horse coming back from a race in 6 to 10 days was a positive sign with an impact variable of 1.65. I can't believe that even a planned breeding attempt to weaken the tb could be accomplished in 3 generations. I might be wrong be it is my opinion.

[jma]

I am about to commit heresy , but I don't think that today's tb is as fragile as today's trainers and the press make out. We are told it is a result of breeding for speed and I ask it that is what if we are doing that where is the increase in speed? We are proclaiming Big Brown as a super horse because of his derby win in 2.01 and change. Well Whirlaway ran that back in 1941. He must have been a super doper horse. As a person that has followed racing for the past 65 years I don't see the increase in speed. My memory fails me as to the exact date but the track record for 6f at SA used to be 1:07 3/5 sometime in the 60's. Swaps held the track record for the mile at 1:33 and change. How many sub 1.08 6f race and sub 1.33 mile do we see now day? In harness racing in 1941 if you had a trotter or pacer that could go a mile in 2.00 you had at least a season's champion. Today if you can't beat 2.00 you don't have any stock to go to the races with. Sb's have increase their speed by at least 9 seconds. That is what I call breeding for speed. Dr Quirin book published in 1979 stated that a horse coming back from a race in 6 to 10 days was a positive sign with an impact variable of 1.65. I can't believe that even a planned breeding attempt to weaken the tb could be accomplished in 3 generations. I might be wrong be it is my opinion.



I don't see how anything you wrote makes the case that horses aren't as fragile as they used to be. Comparing final times from 50 years ago and today is way, way too simplistic. Actually, comparing final times from last week and today is too simplistic, much less those from 1941 and 2008. Track maintenance is different, the tracks are made up of different materials, the average race is much shorter, the drugs being given are different, and a million other things. The fact that horses are inbred to a greater degree, have to be given drugs and painkillers to run at all (or they are given them whether they need them or not), and the way they are broken may certainly be weakening individual horses and the overall breed. Standardbreds are bred differently, plus you have to take into account drugs, track surfaces, and the changes in equipment to explain why their times are so much faster.

[Tom Barrister]

Back in the day, some champion thoroughbreds could race every 14 days and have no problems. You don't see that anymore. Some of the fragility today is due to breeding and some to pushing horses too hard when very young.

As far as times go, Dr. Fager's mile record is still going strong after 40 years, Spectacular Bid's mile and a quarter record is still there after 28 years, and nobody has come close to Secretariat's mile and a half record for the past 36 years. For sprints, the five furlong mark has stood for 26 years, and the six furlong mark for 13 years.

Dr. Fager's record isn't the one that's stood the longest. The world record for a mile and five-eighths is 2:38-1 ---- set 52 years ago by Swaps.

[ryesteve]

I ask it that is what if we are doing that where is the increase in speed? A comparison of raw times doesn't really tell you anything. The surface has as much to do with it (it not more) as the horse does.

[jasperson]

Back in the day, some champion thoroughbreds could race every 14 days and have no problems. You don't see that anymore. Some of the fragility today is due to breeding and some to pushing horses too hard when very young.

As far as times go, Dr. Fager's mile record is still going strong after 40 years, Spectacular Bid's mile and a quarter record is still there after 28 years, and nobody has come close to Secretariat's mile and a half record for the past 36 years. For sprints, the five furlong mark has stood for 26 years, and the six furlong mark for 13 years.

Dr. Fager's record isn't the one that's stood the longest. The world record for a mile and five-eighths is 2:38-1 ---- set 52 years ago by Swaps.
That is what I was trying to say. It not the fault of breeding or breeders that is causing the problem it is the misuse of the horses. Handled correctly I think todays tb is as hardy as those in the 50's. As for breeding for speed I did a calculation on the average speed at the Kentucky derby winner for the decade of the fiftys and it was 2:02 4/5. For the last decade it was and it was 2:01.9. Big increase of almost 1 sec.

[jasperson]

That is what I was trying to say. It not the fault of breeding or breeders that is causing the problem it is the misuse of the horses. Handled correctly I think todays tb is as hardy as those in the 50's. As for breeding for speed I did a calculation on the average speed at the Kentucky derby winner for the decade of the fiftys and it was 2:02 4/5. For the last decade it was and it was 2:01.9. Big increase of almost 1 sec.
Swaps's record also came after an injury the cause a lay off that occurred in his match race with Nasuha as a 3 yrold